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Thread: FOR THE DEVS: My kingdom for a ROPE ARROW

FOR THE DEVS: My kingdom for a ROPE ARROW

  1. #1
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    Exclamation FOR THE DEVS: My kingdom for a ROPE ARROW

    *I'm going to elaborate on this point for a bit because I think its really important.

    I find it unacceptable that these were removed in TDS for a number of reasons.

    -- Rope arrows have become a symbol really. Of freedom, of immersion, of what not to exclude from a Thief game. H4xing rope arrows into TDS would hardly have helped either, because the levels were so tiny and there weren't any rooftops to explore anyway.

    -- Isn't the whole point of a sequel to add to/improve upon what has already been done? All the best sequels in gaming history have followed the same formula. Give the players more of what they want and less of what they don't. It was true for

    • Thief 2
    • Baldur's Gate 2
    • Freespace 2
    • Age of Empires 2
    • System Shock 2
    • Fallout 2
    • Diablo 2
    • etc...


    But when you look at games that tried to break the mold by removing/altering existing gameplay elements, you run into some of the worst sequels ever.

    • Oblivion
    • TDS
    • Age of Empires 3
    • Dawn of War 2
    • Invisible War
    • Fallout 3
    • etc...


    The list goes on and on.

    ________________________________

    >> Oblivion had numerous flaws and some of them bear striking resemblances to TDS's shortcomings. Morrowind featured levitation and teleportation as a means of exploring the game world. Bethesda removed these elements in Oblivion for much the same reasons as Ion Storm with TDS. The engine did not want to cooperate and they wanted to get the game out of the door quickly.
    >> The game was also full of minor details that served to streamline the gameplay and make it more accessible to people who have short attention spans and probably do not even really want to be playing the game. Worst design philosophy ever. Enemy/loot level scaling falls under the same topic. Just plain laziness on the part of the developer. The idea in and of itself reeks of mediocrity. I suppose if that is all you are shooting for as a studio then by all means, streamline your products.

    ________________________________

    >> The same ideas were used in games like IW and DoW2 because the developers were (and most still are) under the impression that less granularity is better. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Once you start cutting out "needless" things from the game you can never stop.
    >> I find that the worst thing about these games is that some of them were almost good. It just leaves me feeling frustrated and bitter because I know that they could have been so much better.

    ________________________________

    >> Bottom line is, everyone here loves Thief in all it's glory and there is nothing so wrong with TDP/TMA that it needs to be removed entirely. Yet Ion Storm thought differently. I implore you EM to disregard every change to the gameplay mechanics in TDS. Focus on Thief 2 as a starting platform and continue to add to the formula as TTLG did. And for the love of all that is good in the world, DO NOT release the game before it is ready. Do it right, or don't do it at all. Half of TDS's problems (not all, because the devs were quite set in their ways unfortunately) could have been rectified if only Ion Storm had more time to polish the game.

    EM, If Square-Enix starts breathing down your neck to release the game too soon, let me know and I will personally write them a persuasive/angry letter on your behalf to buy more time.
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  2. #2
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    I really have to agree. To return to this franchise properly, they really have to deliver on reproducing all that made it great, in the same overall context. Hopefully they don't make the DX3 mistake and have Garrett smash through walls to "defeat enemies."

  3. #3
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    ^
    Are you talking about the punch augmentation in DX3? I checked the FAQs and it says: "Punch - to breach walls and open up new paths in a level or find bonuses". It doesn't say anything about defeating enemies. Anyway, this sounds a good feature to me, nothing wrong with it for the main character of DX3. It seems an irrelevant comparison as the two games are so different and it is unlikely that EM will make Garrett punch through walls. Lets keep this thread on topic so the devs can read our reasonable opinions and not our irrational fears.

    __

    Back on topic.

    GmanPro, thank you again for an excellent post - this time regarding the rope (or vine) arrow.
    I also believe it must return in T4, together with the thieves' highway (rooftop freedom).

    In T: DS, I really missed this element of gameplay. I couldn't think like a thief anymore, I couldn't access lofty places to search for open windows to find a bag of coins or other treasure to increase my nightly takings.

    The rope arrow was SOOOOOOO much fun and provided the player with the option to explore places that were not actually necessary to complete the main objective of the mission etc. This was an important non-linear element of the previous Thief games.

    Yes, please note devs, the rope arrow is a MUST HAVE for Thief 4.
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  4. #4
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    I feel like somebody is going to come in here and say that rope arrows were unrealistic. I don't think they are any more unrealistic than, say, a moss arrow. And vine arrows on the other hand allow you to completely suspend your belief because those couldn't be anything other than magic.

    ___________

    Anyway, realism is besides the point. We all wish that there was more of the Thieves Highway in TDS. Especially with the open city district idea. I spent half the game waiting in anticipation for the time when I could finally acquire the climbing gloves and begin dashing across the rooftops. Only to realize that there was no roof access except for that tiny strip in Old Quarter. Massively disappointing. One of the best gameplay features of the entire Thief series ... was removed due to laziness.
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  5. #5
    I always preferred the vine arrows. Because, like you said, they seemed like elemental magic very much in the same vein as moss arrows.

    Rope arrows were always kinda...are they magic? Or are they just arrows with ropes tied to them and really poorly implimented physics? If it's magic it doesn't mesh with the natural elements of the other magic arrows.


    I say rope arrows gone forever, to be replaced permanently with vine arrows.

  6. #6
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    Yes, I really don't mind if they are rope or vine arrows as both served the same purpose, and that purpose is the relevant point behind this discussion.
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  7. #7
    Don't really have anything to add to the discussion, because the OP said it all too well.
    Although I confess that at this point I'm not that confident T4 will turn out to be good (due to some interview answers, the THI4F logo etc.), I hope the devs are actually paying attention to the forums and especially to the hardcore fans, as well as some great innovative ideas on here so that they deliver a game in the spirit of the Thief franchise. They actually have a real chance of doing it right, since they're at the very beginning of the game and have a whole lot of fan feedback/ideas.

    Once again, I hope you don't get too excited with innovation and overdo it, or dumb down the gameplay, play the original Thief games (mostly 1 and 2) as they are pretty much the perfect base for Thief 4 and read these forums and you should be set. The good old fans will love you, you will make a load of money and all of us will be happy.

    I know this has been said over and over again, but I can't help but repeat it as many times as I can hoping that the devs do the right thing. Thief's my favorite game series ever, so I can't help but be protective of it

  8. #8
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    I agree about the rope arrow, but some of those Worst Sequels Ever are plenty fun

  9. #9
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    Pretty fun, maybe. But only a tiny fraction of what they could have been

    >> I find that the worst thing about these games is that some of them were almost good. It just leaves me feeling frustrated and bitter because I know that they could have been so much better.
    And none of them can even hold a candle to the list above
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by Gabriel
    Don't really have anything to add to the discussion, because the OP said it all too well.
    Although I confess that at this point I'm not that confident T4 will turn out to be good (due to some interview answers, the THI4F logo etc.), I hope the devs are actually paying attention to the forums and especially to the hardcore fans, as well as some great innovative ideas on here so that they deliver a game in the spirit of the Thief franchise. They actually have a real chance of doing it right, since they're at the very beginning of the game and have a whole lot of fan feedback/ideas.

    Have you read the latest interview transcript in City Watch?
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...t=88482&page=4

    It sounds very promising to me.

    As for the 'Thiaf' logo, it is only a temporary working title, so please don't worry about it.

    Yes, the devs are looking at the discussion on this forum, absolutely.
    So, everyone, lets hear more of your opinions on the re-introduction of the rope/vine arrow.
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  11. #11
    I would like to see the rope arrow return.

    Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion
    I agree about the rope arrow, but some of those Worst Sequels Ever are plenty fun
    Totally agree . . . games change.

  12. #12
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    the problem with rope arrows in TDS was caused by the choice of engine, it had this peculiar climbing mechanism where the avatar became welded to the climbable object and could only let go by jumping off, so you couldn't climb round a ladder for or turn round and jump to a ledge for example, this made implementing rope arrows extremely difficult as, once deployed, they can be viewed as a very thin ladders

    this could have been fixed by modifying the engine but that would have taken time away from level development as you can't design a level that uses rope arrows until you've got ones that work, it would have delayed the release date and from what I've seen that was always set in stone from day one

    but rope arrows gave the game a freedom not found in other games and so the developers tried to bring back some of the functionality by creating climbing gloves which when worn would activate ladder like capabilities in some wall surfaces and make them climbable, it was a relatively easy bodge, but unfortunately didn't provide anything like what could be achieved with a proper rope arrow, you were still stuck to a surface with a limited field of view and a limited range of movement

    so losing rope arrows in TDS was basically about making money by exploiting the franchise and not about making a game in the Thief mould

    now I understand money has to be made or the franchise folds but details like rope arrows are what make the thief franchise successful

    so please don't leap straight into level development and design, take some time to get the engine to support important features like rope arrows

    and if you aren't sure what the important features are, there are plenty of threads in this forum that will tell you

  13. #13
    Thanks for that, Viktoria. Still doesn't convince me, though, sorry :P
    Anyway, there's not much we can do at this point but wait and see what they will unveil next about the game.

    It better have rope arrows!

  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by Gabriel

    It better have rope arrows!
    Haha, cute smiley.
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  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    I feel like somebody is going to come in here and say that rope arrows were unrealistic. I don't think they are any more unrealistic than, say, a moss arrow. And vine arrows on the other hand allow you to completely suspend your belief because those couldn't be anything other than magic.

    ___________

    Anyway, realism is besides the point. We all wish that there was more of the Thieves Highway in TDS. Especially with the open city district idea. I spent half the game waiting in anticipation for the time when I could finally acquire the climbing gloves and begin dashing across the rooftops. Only to realize that there was no roof access except for that tiny strip in Old Quarter. Massively disappointing. One of the best gameplay features of the entire Thief series ... was removed due to laziness.
    I couldn't agree more.

    In all ways Rope Arrows are better than Cimbing Gloves.

    Rope Arrows = creative application of problem solving + non-linear thinking + varied visual perspectives = experiential satisfaction.

    Climbing Gloves = unchallenging problem solving + linear thinking + limited applictions = NO

  16. #16
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    Yes, something we can all agree on...

    PS I also agree to the writing an angry letter part if they rush you...

  17. #17
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    When EM release some further information on T4, I hope that one of the points they will confirm is the return of the rope arrow. This news would certainly make me shake my leaves in joy!
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  18. #18
    I'd like to add my voice to the pro-rope arrows group also.

    Rope arrows allowed you a freedom in a level that was not apparent in TDS.

  19. #19
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    ^es, I think we all agree on this.
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  20. #20
    Yup, I agree. Rope arrows need to be in.

    While I'm at it, maybe I just sucked at it, but I'd like to be able to jump off ladders and rope arrows more reliably. I had a knack for jumping right to my doom. Is this just me? I can hardly ever seem to jump where I mean to on the first attempt.

    Lol @ the list of games. Couldn't agree more. Part 2 usually seems to be the best part. Certainly not the case with Call of Duty though (unless you count the expansion).

  21. #21
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    rope/vine arrows! Glows, as I think, weren't realistic and interesting 2 climb.

  22. #22
    I agree with OP entirely tbh

  23. #23
    rope arrows shouldnt be magical. just attach rope to arrow.

  24. #24
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    Although it would be less realistic, it wouldn't deny anything really. There's no reason to litter a perfectly good response with inaccuracies.
    Follow the fortunes of the Thi4f Forum!

  25. #25
    I heartily look forward to the return of the rope arrows. They are a very thiefy piece of equipment to have. However, I hope they don't relax on the idea that returning the rope arrows will be enough to be 'classic' Thief. Having rope arrows does not make the game great in itself. The interviews and announcements we have heard so far have left me somewhere in limbo as to which way they are taking this game. I think they are purposfully being vague about it all (because they always are at this early stage) but statements like "So, our goal is to bring back this classic on a new level; one that’s never been seen before.” leaves me thinking that they are not making another Thief game - just another game with the same characters, settings and a similar story line.

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