Thread: FOR THE DEVS: What was wrong with TDS you may ask?

FOR THE DEVS: What was wrong with TDS you may ask?

  1. #426
    Thanks! That's nice to hear.

    Now that you mention it - that's actually missing. I didn't use that so often in the previous titles anyway. But I see the problem. Then again - no major funkiller for me.

    [Edit] Anyway, I can usually look past those issues though I often (not in this case) notice them. I'm usually a bit more focused on storyline and foremost the atmosphere. And in my opinion, TDS delivered pretty compelling stuff.

  2. #427
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    yes, leaning to the side is generally more of a problem if you are standing on the edge of a drop or on a narrow beam, lean the wrong way and you fall off, so not only has Garrett forgotten how to swim and climb ropes he can't look down from a ledge without falling off it

  3. #428
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    TDS is a good game in it's own right, but I had been playing Garrett the master thief, ok a bit of a wimp in a fight but skilful, athletic and master of his craft and then TDS comes along and I've suddenly got the coordination of Jerry Lewis in one of his more manic movies ?

    it took some getting used to

  4. #429
    I still use it sometimes but not next to ledges cause the animation suggests that I could fall down. As I mentioned previously I prefere the 3rd person perspective.

    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Wooden animations in the older titles are being confused with the low-poly models. The motions are real and were motion-captured, but the library of animations they had to work with wasn't big enough and the transitions between them are automated. TDS borrowed some motion-capture data from somewhere then heavily-tweaked it by hand--and it shows.

    The lack of mostly hassle-free player-controlled movement, and the inclusion of automated and limiting interaction animations are sins enough.
    To the animations. There could have been some more. It would have been a great improvement to insert animations for pickpocketing or putting out a candle. Jupp, I remember that I missed those on the first playthrough.

  5. #430
    Originally Posted by Captain Shiny
    Also, TDS had some of the most atmospheric levels of the whole series. The madhouse and the pirate mansion are some of my most favourite levels, even compared to other 1st or 3rd person games. The mansion had such a desolate atmosphere and the little story about the old widow was just really good and actually even moved me a bit like it usually only happens with really good books or movies. Things like that even broadened the emotional range of the series - another plus for TDS from my point of view.
    I found almost all the levels in T1 and T2 atmospheric to some degree or another. The ambient sounds were very good in those games. The size of the levels really improved that for me - large open spaces outside and the big rooms echoing footsteps were sorely missed in TDS. I would agree that The Cradle and the Mansion missions in TDS were very good too but apart from those two - and maybe the ghost ship - I thought the first games had as good, if not better, atmosphere.

    Originally Posted by Captain Shiny
    The actual story was, hmm, above average, I'd say, being more impressive on the atmospheric level than on the plot. I liked the ending very much - it felt like a definite and worthy end to an overall great trilogy.
    Agreed that the story was great but it was spoiled by Garrett turning into an assassin hell bent on destruction and wanting to be best friends with the Hammers - or pagans. It just wasn't Garrett and Hammer and Pagans shouldn't be happy for him to wander freely around their home. Pah! What a load of crud that faction stuff was!

    Originally Posted by Captain Shiny
    So all in all the critisism feels like nitpicking an overall great game but that's only my point of view.
    So what about the lovely blue frob that lit up everything you went near? Did you think it was an improvement on the frob in T1 and T2? What about being dragged out of the shadow and right in front of a door when you tried to pick the lock? Did you think that was an improvement? What about losing the lean function? Being able to peek around corners seems like an integral part to a game that is all about being stealthy and not being detected! What about the easy-escape spiderman gloves? Better or worse than rope arrows? Then there is the easy-escape load zones - for a game that is primarily about evading capture, being able to just run like hell until you come to a load zone makes a mockery of it all, there is no skill in trying to escape. I really don't feel these things are nitpicking.

    Originally Posted by Captain Shiny
    By the way, I didn't hear ANYTHING about this game until I saw it on the shelves.
    Does this mean you played TDS first? If so this was good for you because you did not see all the great things they removed from the first games to make TDS. I like TDS, its a good game - but it was a huge disappointment to the Thief series.

  6. #431
    Originally Posted by PJMaybe
    I found almost all the levels in T1 and T2 atmospheric to some degree or another. The ambient sounds were very good in those games. The size of the levels really improved that for me - large open spaces outside and the big rooms echoing footsteps were sorely missed in TDS. I would agree that The Cradle and the Mansion missions in TDS were very good too but apart from those two - and maybe the ghost ship - I thought the first games had as good, if not better, atmosphere.



    Agreed that the story was great but it was spoiled by Garrett turning into an assassin hell bent on destruction and wanting to be best friends with the Hammers - or pagans. It just wasn't Garrett and Hammer and Pagans shouldn't be happy for him to wander freely around their home. Pah! What a load of crud that faction stuff was!



    So what about the lovely blue frob that lit up everything you went near? Did you think it was an improvement on the frob in T1 and T2? What about being dragged out of the shadow and right in front of a door when you tried to pick the lock? Did you think that was an improvement? What about losing the lean function? Being able to peek around corners seems like an integral part to a game that is all about being stealthy and not being detected! What about the easy-escape spiderman gloves? Better or worse than rope arrows? Then there is the easy-escape load zones - for a game that is primarily about evading capture, being able to just run like hell until you come to a load zone makes a mockery of it all, there is no skill in trying to escape. I really don't feel these things are nitpicking.



    Does this mean you played TDS first? If so this was good for you because you did not see all the great things they removed from the first games to make TDS. I like TDS, its a good game - but it was a huge disappointment to the Thief series.
    First of all, I played them in order. And I played the first two games over and over again these days. Then Looking Glass closed its doors and I never thought that there would be a sequel until I suddenly saw it sitting on the shelfs just like that and it was a very pleasent suprise.
    And yes, the things you described didn't bother me that much or not at all. To the gloves - I liked the idea but unfortunately the implementation wasn't so good - so I guess I'd go with the rope arrows.
    To the atmosphere of thief 1 - It was cool and something new at the time but what I disliked was the focus on those caves and ruins which I didn't like as much as the buffords estate. This is why I found TMA much better than the first entry. But that's a matter of taste I guess.

    TDS just focusted on the stuff they did in TMA (more city, less cave dwelling) and added free city roaming which felt like a natural development of the game mechanics. I especially liked all those little stories which I encountered in the city, like the one where I robbed the landlord whereupon the house guard was fired, amongst others.

    I just remember one other thing which disappointed me a bit. The Dark Project series always had pretty good german voice acting, but there were only german subs in the german version. But I got used to that.

    I want to make clear that my affinity to TDS is purely on a subjective level. As I said before, I found that the game mechanics worked out a little bit better in DP and TMA, but TDSs flaws just didn't spoil the overall great game experience for me. I'm sorry that I dare to disagree, but that's what a discussion is all about.

    P.S. As I mentioned before I'm usually more focusted on a games atmosphere. And which atmosphere compells someone the most is nothing but subjective.

  7. #432
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    Unfortunately there's no "free roaming" in T1/T2 as the city is only available to the player as part of the missions.The "Free" part in "free roaming" means just that, no mission imperative, a neutral "sandbox" in which missions can only be accessed by exiting.
    Where it failed in TDS was the engine could not support a large enough city area so each loading zone made the experience feel like a series of mini-missions being forced on the player between the regular missions. In an "ideal" world the entry to any "free roam area" would be optional, or maybe just one compulsory visit, then left up to the players whim, or simply unlock existing missions and remove the mission/story goals and just leave the pure taffing. In fact the more I think of this, if in T4 there were say 3-4 large missions that were purely journeys, then you could have rooftops, streets, caves/tunnels, and perhaps a forest etc. If these were purely "get from A to B" then they might not have to be populated by storycentric AI, making it simply a case of "unlocking this area" upon completion of the game. "Free roam" is always going to work best in large "outdoor" areas, so the missions that focus on building interiors would be bad candidates.

  8. #433
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    There's less free-roaming in TDS than the other games, but you do get to walk around the same territory repeatedly, and not just because you may get lost or turned around.


    You can like TDS more, we just need to hear more of the factual reasons than the purely visceral ones.
    Shish! For now I stick to the visceral ones. To get the factual reasons I'd have to play them again - it's been a while. And I propably wanna play games I haven't played through, yet (Still have to finish Persona 3 & 4 - gosh, those are long!).
    That said, I could tell you what would have ruined TDS for me. I think I would have been pretty annoyed if Garret would've turned into a rampaging War Mashine with Big $ucking Guns to please the mainstream.
    By the way, I still like the old ones very much, especially TMA, but TDS just wins by a tidy tiny little bit.
    I guess I could put my finger on the fact, why I like TDS more than DP. As I mentioned before, I didn't like the focus on the caves and the ruins, and prefer the big city as a setting.
    I'll propably elaborate myself a bit more at another time but I guess I had enough brain activity for today .

  9. #434
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    I agree with more city missions or just larger city areas so there's no danger of repetition. However it'd be nice to take Garrett away to somewhere completely new if only for one mission. A mountain Schloss or Pagan ice camp, just to add a little variety. Most of the TDS interiors were fine, but the engine limits did no favors to the exterior.

  10. #435
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    The factual ones are the things the programmers can actually code in, the animators can animate, the things a person can do without emotional attachment, etc.



    So you could say "More City missions, please!" \o/
    Okay, to keep it short, I found the animations better (except the ragdoll behavior).
    And the shadow maps were awesome in TDS (first time I saw something like that). However the main reason still is athmosphere, storyline and sidestories be it factual or not! And yes, more city missions, please.

  11. #436
    Originally Posted by Flashart
    I agree with more city missions or just larger city areas so there's no danger of repetition. However it'd be nice to take Garrett away to somewhere completely new if only for one mission. A mountain Schloss or Pagan ice camp, just to add a little variety. Most of the TDS interiors were fine, but the engine limits did no favors to the exterior.
    yeah, a "Schloss" would propably be nice.

  12. #437
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    I love the missions outside and below The City for their exoticness, drastic changes in gameplay and visual experience, the what or who is to be found there and there alone, as well as deepening the City's history, and providing deeper insight into the people there since they are in their element, which gives understanding and character to them when they are out of their element.


    Facts would be what it was about the atmosphere, storyline and side-stories that made them superior to the earlier titles as you have come to believe for yourself, otherwise, how can the devs possibly know why these were more meaningful to you? Understandably, not listing them here is a good idea, but you've been granted permission to PM René at any time, and at least one compiled list of wishes and explanations was sent to him, already. I hope other people have done so, too.
    Hey cool!!!

    Originally Posted by jtr7
    (I'm not just talking to you, by the way).
    oh...well...cool.
    Anyway I'll just do that. Are comparisons to other games (not only thief) allowed for general explanations? There are some things I generally like to see/not to see in a game.

  13. #438

    have a couple things I think were missed in that list

    -Traps: a lot of the time traps were more of a threat than the guards in TDP there need to be traps

    -Thief Vision it has to go it really does glimmering loot thats no good makes it to easy you really had to work in 1&2 to meet your loot goals sometimes at least give us the option to turn that crap off

    -glossed over shiny look not cool thief 1 felt more realistic I had a serious problem with every character looking like a GI joe

    -last boss was kind of disappointing both in TDS nad TDP you could pretty much just run up and slap stuff on and the game was over not very fitting of something that may destroy the world make us use our minds a little Karras was an interesting last b

    -I did feel that the flash bombs were much more useful in TDS though yes that's a pro but a pro amongst a lot of crap

    -access I've always had issues with some of the things garret can traverse I'm not saying parkour or anything but he could really use some work on his thief skills thieves can climb like nobodies business don't ask how I know I have issues with him not being able climb a lot of places needs to change it's all about exploration that helps with being able to move more freely keep in mind thieves are quick quiet and agile think second story man here

    Overall issue with the thief series ditch the damn tap shoes it takes away from the immersion the sensetivity of the guards is fine as is it's just I get tired of clomping across tile floors in metal bottomed shoes noisy surfaces in real life include gravel dry leaves creaky floor boards etc not marble floor marble is one of the easiest things to stay silent on provided proper footware don't take the challenge out I just want garret out of the high heels k?

  14. #439
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Sure! You'll only get flamed if you try to make Thief cooler and more action-y and more combative and noisy or more powered up or give G parkour moves and pretty much distract from simple thieving and exploration.


    Just be prepared to defend your views. It gets easier with practice, which we have a lot of opportunity for here.

    Welcome to the Thief 4 board!
    Won't happen! Only if it would be my point of view, of course

    I guess I could use a little training on that.It also wouldn't hurt my writing in english, which I'm still not used to (I'm listening a lot - mostly to video games - but speaking/writing is still another story).

    And thanks for the welcome - I already like it here

  15. #440
    Originally Posted by Scortius
    I read stuff here about the inefficiency of the blackjack in T3. True, it was much better in T2. A nice trick was to just jump up in a dark spot or make any kind of noise where you were invisible to make the guard hear you, wait till he/she swore and got near enough, then lean forward and knock him/her out... It didn't matter if you were behind, beside, or right in front of the guard. (It made stuff a bit too easy though, so I got off the habit of doing so.)
    Anyway... something more annoying: has anyone tried shooting broadheads at a guard who already noticed you and started looking?
    While it only took 1 to do the job from a distance or with a non suspecting guard, that way you could stick 5-15 arrows in them, and they'd still be charging with full tilt...
    I've noticed the same in T3. Something should be worked out against this, or (and this may sound like an abomination ) maybe broadhead arrows could just be left out of thief 4. Why would a master thief need them, when the whole point of the game is NOT to kill?
    in two they were useful for flipping switches thought that was pretty cool and they serve other functions you can shoot certain things and alert guards helps sometimes buy time and what not I do think they could focus on the versatility of an arrow cutting ropes at a distance etc there a lot of different uses that don't involve killing

  16. #441
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    You need a way to detect not only how much noise Garrett is making but on what kind of surface he is on. Without the "noisy" boots you'd have no means of knowing.
    Personally, I find the noise helpful, but I agree that maybe the noises could be re-sampled to make them sound better. (Is this known as "Foley" like what the film studios do?)

  17. #442
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Cool! If you can come up with a better way to provide player feedback and a reminder to slow down than noisy boots, please share. It can't just be made quieter. It's one of those issues that people know is silly but understand why the mechanic is set up that way. A noise meter to go with the light gem was suggested, but that's not a step in a better direction. I'd like to hear some new ideas. Some could even be included in FMs.
    actually I've thought about this all your doing is changing the sound instead of clomp clomp shuffling is nice something that sounds less like someone clogging lol and the issue is actually a lot with the surfaces that make the noise in the first place marble floor is the loudest thing lets change that to creaky floorboards the noise would come from the ground itself ie. creaky boards you hear a well creak it gets louder the more noise you make running on gravel give a crunch works the same way louder the more noise just like the boots it just adds to immersion and since wood is more common than marble it's not making things any easier leaves shuffling noise running to fast on something like marble you might make his feet pop but a master thief would probably be wearing a footpad of some sort lol maybe I know a bit much about all this lol

  18. #443
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Doable. I wonder if it's been done?

    We still have to ignore the idea that he weighs 300 pounds or even more, with all he's carrying.
    lmao you do have a point maybe they should change what he steals I mean real thieves like to target what modern police agencies term "portable wealth"

  19. #444
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    A highway man waylaying travelers. Taffin' Hood and his merry-- his merry-- Well...he's happy.
    I would imagine his horse was probably ecstatic

  20. #445
    Originally Posted by Captain Shiny
    I just remember one other thing which disappointed me a bit. The Dark Project series always had pretty good german voice acting, but there were only german subs in the german version.
    Cool! What was the German word for Taffer? Or was it the same?

  21. #446
    Originally Posted by PJMaybe
    Cool! What was the German word for Taffer? Or was it the same?
    I heard that word in T3 first. I'm not sure, what they used in the german version. Must have been something pretty standart or I would have noticed it. It also has been a long time after all since I played it. If I'm correct, Taffer is some sort of old english word, isn't it? Anyway it doesn't show up in LeoDict.

  22. #447
    Ahem...
    TAFFER

    "A word invented by Looking Glass Studios, used as a slang term in their 'First-Person Sneaker' release, Thief: The Dark Project (So named because of the games engine, which is simply called 'Dark' because of it's innovative use of light and darkness in gameplay.)

    Taffer, insofar as the game environment is defined--is a bastardization of the word 'Trickster', a pagan deity with druidic tendencies. Much in the same way that the interjection 'Geez' in our English language is a bastardization of 'Jesus', the Christo-Catholic Messiah.

    No direct denotation is given to the word 'Taffer', but from it's use, we can take it to be synonymous with many different nouns depending on how it's used. It can also be used as a verb:

    Thief, Fool, Jerk, Joker, etc.
    Noun(1): "Give that back this instant, you taffer!"

    Verb(1): "Quit taffing around!"
    Verb(2): "You mean he managed to fit -both- his hands up his gaping ***?! You're taffing me!" "

    I found that information at urbandictionary.com. Dont know if its all true though.

  23. #448
    Originally Posted by Yaphy
    Ahem...
    TAFFER

    "A word invented by Looking Glass Studios, used as a slang term in their 'First-Person Sneaker' release, Thief: The Dark Project (So named because of the games engine, which is simply called 'Dark' because of it's innovative use of light and darkness in gameplay.)

    Taffer, insofar as the game environment is defined--is a bastardization of the word 'Trickster', a pagan deity with druidic tendencies. Much in the same way that the interjection 'Geez' in our English language is a bastardization of 'Jesus', the Christo-Catholic Messiah.

    No direct denotation is given to the word 'Taffer', but from it's use, we can take it to be synonymous with many different nouns depending on how it's used. It can also be used as a verb:

    Thief, Fool, Jerk, Joker, etc.
    Noun(1): "Give that back this instant, you taffer!"

    Verb(1): "Quit taffing around!"
    Verb(2): "You mean he managed to fit -both- his hands up his gaping ***?! You're taffing me!" "

    I found that information at urbandictionary.com. Dont know if its all true though.
    Very informative indeed. I'm much obliged by this detailed elaboration.
    Anyway I understood the meaning of it out of context like I usually do, when I'm watching english movies or play english videogames. I often check it in leodict anyway if I want to be sure.

    I'm no english-speaker by the way. I just learned it in school like anyone else but since I like english originals be it movies or games I learned a lot since then. Anyway you shouldn't hear me talking. I don't have any idea how I would sound when speaking english but I guess I'd have a heavy german accent.

  24. #449
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    I've said this before, but no one believes me. I live in the UK in a particular area in the West Midlands known as "The Black Country". When I was young, (the 1970's) people used the word "Taff" to mean, to steal. "We taffed some apples!" etc.
    On another forum, another poster from the same region, said he'd never heard the expression, so perhaps it was just a really local phrase.
    The way we used it was to imply stealing, but not in serious way, so scrumping apples or the odd bottle of milk from a doorstep would be a good example. I can only assume LSG just hit a lucky coincidence, but it's strange how it kind of means a similar thing.

  25. #450
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    Originally Posted by Flashart
    I've said this before, but no one believes me. I live in the UK in a particular area in the West Midlands known as "The Black Country". When I was young, (the 1970's) people used the word "Taff" to mean, to steal. "We taffed some apples!" etc.
    On another forum, another poster from the same region, said he'd never heard the expression, so perhaps it was just a really local phrase.
    The way we used it was to imply stealing, but not in serious way, so scrumping apples or the odd bottle of milk from a doorstep would be a good example. I can only assume LSG just hit a lucky coincidence, but it's strange how it kind of means a similar thing.
    interesting to know. but i guess everything has a meaning somewhere - would be good to know if this is coincidence.

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