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Thread: FOR THE DEVS: What was wrong with TDS you may ask?

FOR THE DEVS: What was wrong with TDS you may ask?

  1. #1
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    Exclamation FOR THE DEVS: What was wrong with TDS you may ask?

    It would seem that some of the posters on this forum are having trouble understanding us "hardcore elitists" when we complain about Thief: Deadly Shadows, so let me break it down for you guys:

    • The levels were too small
      >Missions in Thief 1 and 2 were enormous. There were no load screens splitting the levels up causing havok to the AI whenever you left one area and came back to it to find nothing had changed since you left.
      >Missions like The Lfie of the Party, where you could explore a huge portion of the city and the entire interior of an epic castle all in one level and without load screens splitting it up were great. We want more of that.
      ______________________
    • Third Person Camera
      >This is not what Thief is about. You as the player are supposed to assume the role of Garrett. Put on his boots and become him. You are supposed to feel like YOU the player are inside the mansion trying not to get caught
      as opposed to sitting in your comfortable chair sipping Dr Pepper and chomping down on Twinkies enjoying a casual gaming session. If you don't like playing games that way, stop shouting that we are selfish for wanting Thief to be the way we like it and go play games that you like. Go play any number of other games that are stumbling over themselves trying to accommodate your needs.
      >I now also think that the third person model of Garrett was to blame for the clunky and generally uncoordinated feel of the first person mode in TDS. Whatever the case may be, the movement in this game is not a fluid or precise as in the first two games. Some call it "body awareness", but I don't think that's it. Technically, Thief 1 and 2 had a sort of body awareness as well, but it was done so much better.
      ______________________
    • No Rope arrows? WTF!?!?
      >Rope arrows were one of the coolest features of The Dark Project when it first came out. It was exiting being able to go to places which in previous first person shooter games would have been blocked off and inaccesible. Not only that
      but it felt right. Its something a master Thief would have in his arsenal. The TDS engine couldn't handle them for whatever reason and so they were replaced with climbing gloves which were practically useless because they were
      only usable on a tiny fraction of the surfaces in the game. And usually there was nothing to be gained from climbing any of the walls anyway. Not a bad idea, but poorly implemented.
      ______________________
    • No more Sword?
      >Some people think the dagger was more suitable for a Thief. I can see where this view comes from, but I for one would like to have my trusty sword back. At least a short sword in any case. Its a good tool for breaking wooden boards
      and repelling the undead.
      >Not much to be said for this one, just meet us in the middle here EM and give us a short sword. Or a dagger AND a short sword.
      ______________________
    • City hubs
      >A cool idea, no doubt. But just as many things in this game, it was poorly implemented. The zones were way too small. Expand on this idea EM. Give us more city to explore and all will be well.
      >The Thieving equipment was probably too cheap. I always could afford to load up my arsenal to the max for each mission (later in the game) and still have some gold left over.
      ______________________
    • Nerfed blackjack
      >This is the most annoying aspect of the entire game for me. It feels broken. Why should I have to get right behind somebody and wait for the blackjack to be raised signaling that my strike will incapacitate my victim? Why can't
      I smack said victim in the face?
      >Why is it that when I flashbomb somebody, and they cover their eyes and stumble blindly about etc, I am not allowed to knock them out? They are blinded, they don't know where I am, so why can't I blackjack them? Why does their vision
      magically come back to them instantly when I smack them with the blackjack? Then they spit some snarly comment about how weak I am with my soft blows. ITS COMPLETELY RETARDED AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN NOTICED BY THE QA TEAM!
      >Also, why are guards impervious to the blackjack when they have their weapon out? They enter search mode and begin slowly scanning the premises for me (OBVIOUSLY THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE I AM) and yet a knock to the head from my
      blackjack does nothing to them. Even from behind. I cannot get over how bad the blackjack feels in this game.
      ______________________
    • No more cutscene briefings
      >Why take these out? They were awesome. Bring them back EM.
      ______________________
    • Immersion breaking loot percentage system
      >Horrible idea. It would never have gotten past the suggestion room If I was in charge. How would I know exactly how much loot there is during a mission? And that the remaining loot represents 20% of the total average value? Or
      that there is one final piece of "special loot" somewhere inside?
      >And why was the loot shining/glinting? That was also unnecessary.
      ______________________
    • No Burricks!?!?!?
      >Where'd they go?
      ______________________
    • Garrett forgot how to swim?
      >Come on Garrett. Get it together...
      ______________________
    • Less items for the arsenal
      >I already mentioned rope arrows/vine arrows, but there were other items as well. TDS introduced the oil flask, which came across as clumsy to me. Hardly the delicate precision instrument that a master Thief would use.
      >Where are the Mines? Frogbeast eggs (lol) ? Slowfall potions? etc etc
      ______________________
    • Factions
      >Another good idea but poorly implemented.
      >Shooting dust mites? Buying pagan respect by pouring my resources into their shrines? W. T. F.
      >Why didn't you just hold on to the game for another year and make actual missions for us to do for these factions Ion Storm? Your faction system was sloppy and lazy and unprofessional. It felt like it wanted to actually be something
      but was instead just thrown in there half finished just because...
      ______________________
    • Poor choice of engine
      >Thief was never about being the next prettiest game. It didn't try to dethrone the king-of-the-hill of graphics because it knew that in another six months a new title would come along and nab the spotlight. Take away the pretty
      graphics of TDS and what are you left with? Ion Storm should have picked an engine that can handle large environments. Besides that, the engine was too hardware intensive for what it provided.
      ______________________
    • The story/plot
      >Its hard to complain about this because the only real suggestion I can make is ... make it better.
      >TDS wasn't as interesting or compelling as The Metal Age. I wouldn't know how to break it down in terms of zeroes and ones (though I'm sure there are some very real and solid story telling/map designing techniques Looking Glass understood). Whatever they did, it worked.
      >The world was believable in Metal Age. There was more to do in the game world. More to interact with. Like that tip you could get about searching through people's trash because you might find some interesting info.

    ________________________________

    All of this being said. I still found TDS to be an enjoyable game in its own right. For all its faults, at least it didn't feature regenerating health, an alternate protagonist and multiplayer.

    One of the things I really enjoyed about it was that it added just a hint of RPG flavor to the mix. Exploring the city at your leisure, visiting fences to sell loot and black market shoppes to purchase your gear. Doing side missions like that blacksmith job, where you gotta nab the golden dagger. It was a good idea, but poorly implemented. All of this could have been fixed and polished and made perfect if only Ion Storm had held on to the game for another year.

    I would say that I'm sorry for the long post, but I'm not. This needed to be said. If anyone else had some problem with TDS that I didn't. Feel free to add it here.
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  2. #2
    I agree with most of that.

    The few points I disagree on are:

    City Hubs: I agree it was poorly implimented, but I don't even want them to try and do it better, I want them to drop the idea entirely.

    Loot Percentage System: It's not that much different from the stats screen in T1 and T2 that told you exactly how much loot there was in a level, and how much of it you found.

    The story/plot: I thought it was fine. Not as interesting as T2's, but it fit in well with the series I think.



    That said, T3 had 3 things going for it that I liked. Better lockpicking. Holy Water and Oil Flasks. And wallhugging.

  3. #3
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    Loot Percentage System: It's not that much different from the stats screen in T1 and T2 that told you exactly how much loot there was in a level, and how much of it you found.
    Huh, I guess I never really noticed that stuff. I was too eager to skip that stuff and move on to the next mission.

    I'd prefer that it go back to just "grab 1500 worth of loot" I know it still assumes that Garrett (you) knows the average market value of each and every piece of loot in the mission. But its still better.
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  4. #4
    You forgot that First Person was available, though not on the xbox. Don't worry though, it was god awfully implemented. The camera liked to skip about slightly when you strafed, and it lurched about when you jumped.

    The loot percentage popping up was annoying. They should have just gone back to the Thief I and II inventory system, so that loot appeared as one item, detailing the types and total loot. They could have placed the percentage down there.

    Another problem I had with the loot was that it didn't look much like loot. You wouldn't have been able to tell it if it weren't for the loot glint. A lot of people seemed to dislike that for some reason. I don't really care either way. Luster wouldn't be so bad to have on loot. But the object hi-lighting system looked really bad. They should have gone with what the Thief I and II engine did, fully light the texture of the selected object...

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    ______________________
    [*]Nerfed blackjack
    >This is the most annoying aspect of the entire game for me. It feels broken. Why should I have to get right behind somebody and wait for the blackjack to be raised signaling that my strike will incapacitate my victim? Why can't
    I smack said victim in the face?
    >Why is it that when I flashbomb somebody, and they cover their eyes and stumble blindly about etc, I am not allowed to knock them out? They are blinded, they don't know where I am, so why can't I blackjack them? Why does their vision
    magically come back to them instantly when I smack them with the blackjack? Then they spit some snarly comment about how weak I am with my soft blows. ITS COMPLETELY RETARDED AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN NOTICED BY THE QA TEAM!
    >Also, why are guards impervious to the blackjack when they have their weapon out? They enter search mode and begin slowly scanning the premises for me (OBVIOUSLY THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE I AM) and yet a knock to the head from my
    blackjack does nothing to them. Even from behind. I cannot get over how bad the blackjack feels in this game.

    Wow, reading your post really brought back all of those bitter memories.

    I loved the blackjack and TDS totally fu*ked it up. I mean how the hell do they explain the blinded guards being able to see again when you hit them?

    Is the blackjack enhanted or somethin?

    And what's with the waiting for the blackjack to be raised? God that was moronic! Just let us hit em already.

    And when they are searching, the blackjack doesn't work. How does that make sense? You know someone is around and you tell yourself you won't faint?

    Arrrrggggghhhhhh! TDS was such a lame attempt and there are people here who are actually defending it.

    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    ______________________
    [*]Immersion breaking loot percentage system
    >Horrible idea. It would never have gotten past the suggestion room If I was in charge. How would I know exactly how much loot there is during a mission? And that the remaining loot represents 20% of the total average value? Or
    that there is one final piece of "special loot" somewhere inside?
    >And why was the loot shining/glinting? That was also unnecessary.
    I really don't get the whole shiny loot *****. You're a thief! You need to look for the damn loot by yourself! Not be directed to it!

    Remember looking for that ring behind that pot. I had to look everywhere until i finally realized i didn't look behind the damn pot. I cannot describe the sense of achievement i used to feel after searching for a loot for half an hour. That was totally lost in TDS because people are impatient.

    You can see the bloody loot a mile away! Just enter a room, and oh, there it is, in the corner to your right. Was the loot sprayed with UV dye and Garrett mechanical eye acts as an UV lamp?

    In the real Thief game, you'll only see the loot when you get really close to it. That's how it should be done! That's how it must be done in T4!

    Good job GmanPro. Let them see the ridiculousness of TDS and lets see what they have to say.

    And please don't give that lame, "Oh, it's not perfect but it was still not bad" bull*****.

    The game was not perfect because it was BAD!!! Can, u, GET THAT?!

  6. #6
    anyone noticed that the ceiling in the museam floats above the walls, and you can see the sky between the top of the walls and the ceiling, totally ruins the museum level for me.
    Tuna, the chicken of the sea.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    >Where are the Mines? Frogbeast eggs (lol) ? Slowfall potions? etc etc
    Dude... there were mines in TDS.... Did you not play it all the way?

  8. #8
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    I must have forgotten. Silly me
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  9. #9
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    This is a good thread for the devs to look at and hopefully it will remain on topic and address the points specifically made in first post.
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    You are only minimally modified. Omar can help you correct this...

  10. #10
    Mostly excellent points GmanPro.

    I'd like to add one very important, err, modification.

    • Gameplay Mechanics


    This is a fairly encompassing issue and covers:
    General movement - which was lurchy and not as smooth as in T1 and 2.
    Sidestepping/lean - lean was broken and made you a.visible and b.likely to fall of edges.
    No swimming.
    No rope arrows.

    (Interaction with the AI via the blackjack was another issue that could be lumped into the same category but its more of an AI design issue.)

    Everything else I've listed and many of the things GmanPro has listed are due to, or contributed to by, the engine choice.


    In the TDS editor we can see that rope arrow implementation was attempted. Its actually been hacked in now, but its not properly functional (as I understand). Before anything else is decided on EM need to make sure that the engine is up to scratch. Having played TR: Underworld on PS3 it looks likely to me that the engine can be adapted to work very well for a Thief game. But the engine is the foundation and poor foundations = bad everything else.

    As we see in the TDS case.

  11. #11
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    ^^ You know, I am convinced that the third person model of Garrett was to blame for the clunky first person movement in TDS. So I've edited the first post - included a note about it under third person.
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  12. #12
    Don't forget the respawning guards. I ghosted my first playthrough for the 'full experience' but when you're bored and just want to bust some skulls the fact guards keep respawning if KO'd or killed was ridiculous.

  13. #13
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    ^^ You are referring to the guards in the city hub areas respawning yes? That's really more of another problem associated with the engine. And that Ion Storm released the game too soon.

    What I mean is that if they had more time to make bunches more models of guards (the engine might not have been able to support more models), get more voice actors for them and make up some new patrol routes etc, then it wouldn't have felt like it was the same exact guards come back from the dead. Because really, there should be guards back there patrolling again. A day was supposed to have past in between major missions and all that. It was just another example of sloppy work and no attention to detail at Ion Storm imo.
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  14. #14
    No, guards actually respawned in missions after being put to sleep or even killed. You could empty a mission map of all life and ten minutes later it'd be crawling with guards again.

  15. #15
    I though TDS was brilliant, but not without it's flaws.

    I liked:
    - The story - grabbed me by the short and curlies till the end
    - Art direction
    - Seeing Garretts body in first person and the feel and mechanics of his movement
    - The fact that Ion Storm managed to increase the size of levels compared to DXIW
    - Dynamic shadows!
    - Mission design (omfg the Cradle!!!)
    - Garretts apartment
    - City hubs were cool in concept
    - Faction system
    - Merchant system
    - Sound design and soundtrack
    - AI reactions to snuffed lights, open doors etc (although AI was pretty flakey at times)

    I didn't like:
    - XBOX!
    - Textures before installing John Ps texture mod
    - Level size was a couple of percent below awesome, but far from being horrible. As I said above I do admire what Ion Storm managed to do re this
    - CIty hubs could have been better - more rooftop areas
    - NPC animations
    - Generic appearance of NPCs
    - Climbing gloves not usable in enough areas
    - Lack of briefing videos
    - Inconsistent appearance/features of Garrett in cutscenes
    - The music during the intro!

    That's all I can remember atm

  16. #16
    Climbing gloves not usable in enough areas? Personally I thought they were too effective as it was. They were a solve-all tool for hiding when you messed up and should at least have made some kind of noise when using them. The faction system felt like a corny RPG tack-on too.

    More... Ion storm increased the size of levels? Maybe compared to another non-Thief game but compared to Thief 2 they were tiny so that really doesn't fly in my mind. The art direction was questionable too as everything was a noticeable shade of blue, the thrown together 3D cutscenes were awful and generally it was a big step down from the gritty, colourful, immersive visual quality of Thief 2. Even the Cradle, a brilliant exercise in level design was pretty flat and ugly.

    Oh, and lest we forget Thief 3 was noticeably easier than the other Thief titles to its detriment even on maximum difficulty post patch. I got my most satisfactory result using a difficulty level trainer on my first playthrough, (prior to the patch) and cranking AI awareness up well above what it was supposed to be in even the hardest mode on Thief 3 and ghosting.

  17. #17
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    It would seem that some of the posters on this forum are having trouble understanding us "hardcore elitists" when we complain about Thief: Deadly Shadows, so let me break it down for you guys:
    I'm so glad you made this thread Gman. I've been wondering why you guys didn't like Thief: Deadly Shadows, because I loved it and I couldn't understand why you all hated it so much, so this thread answers some of my questions.

    Now, I know we tend to butt heads over this subject, but it seems to me that your biggest beef with TDS is the 3rd person view.

    So before I get into it too much, let me just say this, I suffer motion sickness, so 3rd person mode is the ONLY way I can play.

    With that said, I really can't understand why all of you are so vehemently opposed to the very idea of having a 3rd person view available.

    But this statement throws some light on it:

    I now also think that the third person model of Garrett was to blame for the clunky and generally uncoordinated feel of the first person mode in TDS. Whatever the case may be, the movement in this game is not a fluid or precise as in the first two games.
    I didn't know that. If this is so, then I can now understand why you all hate the 3rd person view so much. If something like that had messed up my gaming experience, then yes, I'd hate it too.

    But, let me ask you this, if the 3rd person view didn't impact or effect the first person view in any way, would you all still passionately oppose it?

    I know some of you are a bit like religious zealots "There is no way to play but my way, and anybody who thinks otherwise will be burned at the stake!".

    But truly, if the 3rd person view didn't effect your gameplay in any way, would you all really care if it was available?

    I'm thinking about the game Oblivion here, because I don't think anybody had any complaints that it offered players a choice of both views. So I'm guessing Oblivion got it right.

    So if they used the Oblivion engine to make Thief4, or even if they just used the Oblivion engine's game mechanics, would you guys be ok with that?

    As for all the other issues you mentioned, I agree with you. Very well said! Your suggestions make a lot of sense.

    I just can't agree with you about the first person camera, because if they scrap the 3rd person view, then I won't be able to play the game at all .

  18. #18
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    Ok well, motion sickness is a very valid reason for not using first person. As for making third person in such a way as to not interfere with the first person ... it would technically speaking be an impossibility, but I know what you mean. I suppose its not all bad, but it has to be done better than TDS.

    The whole Oblivion thing is iffy. I used that feature to check out how my character looked in his fancy new armor on occasion. But its different because I didn't feel like I was in the game world. It was like "Look what my character just did!" As opposed to "Look what I just did!" I feel like I go through about a dozen RPG characters a year, so I never really get attached to any of them.

    I think that some games will let you turn off head-bobbing and that helps some people with motion sickness issues. But there's only really a handful of first person games worth playing anyway so you aren't missing out on much.

    On a side note, I only ever got motion sickness from one game. Prince of Persia: Warrior Within. I dunno why. Something about the way it looked and felt. I couldn't even watch somebody else play it. It was third person btw. Go figure...
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  19. #19
    One thing that really broke the mood for me was as mentioned before;

    The bright blue item highlighting.

    It was too harsh, just highlighting the item brightness wouldve been enough.

  20. #20
    For me third person is like watching a movie. I'm outside looking in instead of BEING Garrett. I can understand the necessity for you and others with a similar condition. And there are those who are epilyptic, in fact, some of the FMs warn persons with petite mal or Gran mal problems to not play them.

    But Garrett is not standing looking at someone else in action (in fact the auto change to third when climbing ladders, just pissed me off), he has a single pair of eyes that see ahead and slightly to the side (peripheral vision). He isn't superman to see around corners, nor do his eyes have a "fisheye" lens like a camera, or some aquatic creatures who can actually see behind, to the side, and ahead at the same time.

    So, third is not my bag. If it was selectable for such as you self, and was not an auto execute I could live with it. In TDS it was selectable, except for the "climbing ladders" etc. But as a full feature, on all the time. No thank you.

    One of the great features of THIEF is that you MUST look, and SEE what you look at. You needed to use caution when rounding a corner, or passing an obstacle, because, you could not see around the corner. Nor did you get a "birdseye" view of an area. The "Scouting" orb made sense, but I never needed it nor used it. But within the context it fit (loosely).

    Seeing every thing from the perspective of a camera with a global view is not conducive to "being IN the scene". You are a bystander. Just like the lookie loos at an accident.

  21. #21
    I agree with nearly all of that. I still really like TDS, just because it's a Thief game, but so much could be way better. I hope above all that EM keeps the Faction system, and perhaps even adds more factions or heavily expands upon what TDS did have. Letting you shape the way the city responds to your actions is something that can't be described with words, and it is a must have

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    Its hard to complain about this because the only real suggestion I can make is ... make it better.
    TDS story (history of Gamall, Lauryl, Inspector Drept; stopping time, fall of the Keepers) was great! It was probably the only aspect of the game that felt... right.

    I would be very surprised if EM sketches something as interesting as TDS story.

  23. #23
    Plot was ok, but I agree with everything. Also didn't like the swirling purple fog-effects.

  24. #24
    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    [*]Third Person Camera
    I say if EM can do it right, leave it in for those who might enjoy it better than the FPS view. If it takes too much time or whatever, drop it.

    [*]No Rope arrows? WTF!?!?
    Yes, bring them back, but maybe leave the climbing gloves (or at least the wall climbing) too, just design the levels in a way to make both useful.

    [*]No more Sword?
    No long swords for me, thank you, but I could agree on a short sword. Or a short sword and a dagger, like you said.
    [*]City hubs
    >A cool idea, no doubt. But just as many things in this game, it was poorly implemented. The zones were way too small. Expand on this idea EM. Give us more city to explore and all will be well.

    [*]No more cutscene briefings
    >Why take these out? They were awesome. Bring them back EM.

    [*]Garrett forgot how to swim?
    >Come on Garrett. Get it together...

    [*]Less items for the arsenal
    >I already mentioned rope arrows/vine arrows, but there were other items as well. TDS introduced the oil flask, which came across as clumsy to me. Hardly the delicate precision instrument that a master Thief would use.
    Hey, the oil flask was cool and very useful, EM should keep it.
    >Where are the Mines? Frogbeast eggs (lol) ? Slowfall potions? etc etc
    I think too many items is a bad thing too. Perhaps some should be avalaible only at certain times?
    [*]Factions
    >Another good idea but poorly implemented.
    >Shooting dust mites? Buying pagan respect by pouring my resources into their shrines? W. T. F.
    >Why didn't you just hold on to the game for another year and make actual missions for us to do for these factions Ion Storm? Your faction system was sloppy and lazy and unprofessional. It felt like it wanted to actually be something
    but was instead just thrown in there half finished just because...
    I don't think it was that bad but I'd like to see it return in Thief 4 but you are right, it should be improved.
    [*]The story/plot
    >Its hard to complain about this because the only real suggestion I can make is ... make it better.
    >TDS wasn't as interesting or compelling as The Metal Age. I wouldn't know how to break it down in terms of zeroes and ones (though I'm sure there are some very real and solid story telling/map designing techniques Looking Glass understood). Whatever they did, it worked.
    I think the story was just as good as in the earlier games.
    >The world was believable in Metal Age.
    Yeah, sure, the big talking metal robots made it believable.
    There was more to do in the game world. More to interact with. Like that tip you could get about searching through people's trash because you might find some interesting info.
    But I can agree with this. Give us more stuff to do.


    Yes, Thief 3 had it's problems and faults but I still loved it. Go ahead, start flaming.
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  25. #25
    Originally Posted by Necros
    Yeah, sure, the big talking metal robots made it believable.
    What is the main difference between big talking metal robots and big talking metal robots?

    Thief 2: Believable, because of the industrial revolution, the big, steam-like structure, the pre-recorded speeches (they weren't computing-thinking machines, just advanced turrets), and the fanatism that lead to technical improvements in the city.

    Transformers: well... I am Megatron.

    See what the point of realism is?

    (Te is magyar? Csak nem GSF-ről?)

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