Thread: "THE ARMOURY: Tools of Your Trade" - Weapons/Equipment Discussion Thread

"THE ARMOURY: Tools of Your Trade" - Weapons/Equipment Discussion Thread

  1. #426
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    Unreal did it only months before hand. both are 1998, and thief was a november release while unreal was in may.

    don't know if there are other games though before then.
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  2. #427
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Were the weapons in Quake sprites?
    They were models.

  3. #428
    SHOGO and Quake 2 used models. The original Quake also used models instead of sprites.

    Dark Forces 2; Jedi Knight, also used models.

    Unreal was a little late in the game, but had huge maps and dynamic lighting, which is what made it so popular at the time.

  4. #429
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    I was kinda seeing if there was another innovation TDP introduced... aside from Stealth as a game genre I mean. (that one is true, right?)
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  5. #430
    That old video just reinforces for me that I really don't want crossbows

  6. #431
    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    I was kinda seeing if there was another innovation TDP introduced... aside from Stealth as a game genre I mean. (that one is true, right?)
    Well, it did away with the "human-tank" standard that DOOM/Quake set, and made it a point that if you have to fight, then you've already lost.

  7. #432
    Originally Posted by DarknessFalls
    That old video just reinforces for me that I really don't want crossbows
    Oh, not like that one No argument here on that.

    But, just as a general option, I'd still like the ability to choose either a short bow or a crossbow.

    I'd also like flaming arrows/bolts in addition to our usual exploding "fire arrows".

    A dagger.

    Meh... not much else. Game wise I just want it to be a PC Game first, and a console game second. That, and sexy graphics to go with the already well established sexy gameplay

  8. #433
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    I want 100 weapons and accessories and...and...

    Just as mere options. 'Cause options make the game and outweigh everything else and make every single person (okay, just 99%) happy happy happy!


    God I hope it takes 20 minutes and 10 pages of menu options and sliders (small font!), just to start the game! It would be the ultimate!
    Come on, dude. Give it a rest.

    I happen to think a high powered crossbow that takes time to reload would be cool.

  9. #434
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    The issue I have with the cross bow, aside from just loving the bow is mainly thus.

    A crossbow fires the same speed, the same distance every time. You can't fire an bolt earlier, arc a shot, anything. There is no dynamic, no ability to control and finesse it to your will. I can't even say it's simply more consistent than the bow because of the fact that, when at full draw, the bow is just as consistent as well. The crossbow may seem a cool aesthetic, but it is definitely a tool of less control than a bow is.

    Now this is self defeating, but I have come up with a means of changing that lack of control. Having the crossbow use a crank system with an anti-slip mechanism, you could allow the string to be cranked, and then stop cranking to get it to where you want it. The issue here is the clunkiness since it's a slower and more deliberate process, especially since you can't put the bolt in it before you pull it back enough, or else you'll just have the bolt fall off the end due to the tip heaviness (especially if it's an elemental of one sort or another). Dry-firing a crossbow is a very catastrophic event too, usually utterly destroying it and possibly the person behind it, so that crossbow is drawn until you either waste a bolt to re-crank it, or find somewhere else to use the bolt. An arrow can always be slowly un-drawn, and be fired whenever you want it to be.

    Crossbows are much slower than a true bow of the same caliber in the hands of an expert, no matter what the crossbow.

    The crossbow may offer power, but you sacrifice speed, choice, and control when compared to a real bow. There is no good reason to use in Garret's case when the bow as it is offers so many more advantages.
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  10. #435
    My thinking is that it would be useful against armored targets, or have certain advantages (gamewise) that a regular bow wouldn't. I think the tradeoff would be interesting and challenging.

  11. #436
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    Your only advantages over the bow are:

    1. Power and damage - if you need to take down a horse or a man in full plate armor, this just might do the trick.

    2. Near flat trajectory - if you don't want the player to have to do anything but point and click since arc is nothing compared to a bow.

    3. No need to worry about your arm tiring.

    Advantages of the bow over the crossbow are:

    1. Control over power of shots

    2. Control over speed of shots (especially if neutrally buoyant arrows exist again)

    3. Ability to arc arrows over something

    4. Ability to un-draw an arrow

    5. Faster reload time

    There really is no comparison in terms of utility - especially if headhots count since that removes alot of the need for the power of the crossbow.

    The bow also utilizes player skill and judgement better due to the need to compensate for arc, and the need to not draw for so long the arm tires.
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  12. #437
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    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Yes! Yes! Give it a rest! Exactly! Everything's wrong with all the games, right? Wrong!
    Jeeezzz, You keep stressing out like that and you won't be around long enough to see the game anyway CHILL!!
    A bird in the hand is... Lunch tonight.

  13. #438
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    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    Your only advantages over the bow are:

    1. Power and damage - if you need to take down a horse or a man in full plate armor, this just might do the trick.

    2. Near flat trajectory - if you don't want the player to have to do anything but point and click since arc is nothing compared to a bow.
    This is because the crossbow behaves more like a gun, which is a bad thing...requiring less skill from the player, and thus diminishing the creative use of the tool. This would encourage narrow thinking as opposed to the more spatial thinking when using the bow...resulting in a dumbing-down of the ranged approach and its' application.

    3. No need to worry about your arm tiring.
    Again, a bad thing for gameplay. Skill and timing are essential parts of the game. Removing this aspect of ranged-play would reduce the tension of the game, ultimately diminishing the overall experience.

    Advantages of the bow over the crossbow are:

    1. Control over power of shots

    2. Control over speed of shots (especially if neutrally buoyant arrows exist again)

    3. Ability to arc arrows over something

    4. Ability to un-draw an arrow

    5. Faster reload time
    These aspects of ranged-play require thought and skill from the player, rather than the simplistic, somewhat mindless use of the gun-like crossbow. Because the crossbow is automated, it steals control away from the player, and eliminates any future possibility of velocity controlled effects from magical and non-magical arrows alike.

    There really is no comparison in terms of utility - especially if headhots count since that removes alot of the need for the power of the crossbow.

    The bow also utilizes player skill and judgement better due to the need to compensate for arc, and the need to not draw for so long the arm tires.


    There really is no comparison in utility...the bow wins easily, just like the sword.

    Leave Garrett his blackjack, short sword, and short bow...leverage creative thinking, encourage player skill, and preserve the delightful tension, which is THIEF.

  14. #439
    I don't think those are bad things. And it's also why I suggested a weight limit for equipment.

    Someone mentioned some wobble effect for the bow. Kind of like what NOVALOGIC does for the sniper rifles in their games. I've never shot a bow, so I don't know how realistic that would be, but a little challenge in aiming with the bow verse the crossbow, to me at least, seems to be a good tradeoff.

    It's also the reason I brought up the grappling hook idea. But, whatever.

  15. #440
    They're just suggestions. That's kind of what these threads are all about.

    Anybody else with an equipment wish-list?

  16. #441
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    I'm someone who does want the dagger in thief 4, but I want to have both - as a dagger/knife, does has more uses for certain situations than a sword, but only where size matters (prying gems from statues, cutting paintings out of frames, disarming pressure plates, cutting purses, etc). The sword serves as a better weapon to me though, as it makes more sense for someone who does come accross demons, undead, and beasties rather often to have something they can fall back on - and combat is more fun when you have the option to block or power attack, slash from a different side to avoid their block, etc. I see the merits of both of them, and would appreciate each for their unique abilities.

    But I can't say the same thing for the crossbow. It offers so little utility over the bow it isn't justifiable to me for it to go through the trouble of modeling, skinning, programming, etc. There aren't really any situations that Garrett comes across so often that it would make sense to leave the bow at home and take a crossbow with him instead. The distances his work occurs at also makes a crossbow less desirable. He's not firing a grappling hook over a 200 foot wall, or into a window 300 feet away to create a zip line. He's not taking down giant beasts with so much muscle and thick skin that a bow isn't going to do the job. He's not going to encounter tons of people wearing full plate armor and helmet so he has no choice but to pierce that armor. There is just not enough that requires the traits that a crossbow has and a normal bow lacks.
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  17. #442
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    There's no need for the dagger, when Garrett has his Thieves Tool Kit (TTK). This was assumed to be used in all the games, even though no animation was present, except for the lock-picking in TDS. Notice that paintings were never cut by the sword or dagger, as neither of these are the correct tool for the job. Prying gems from statues or relief wasn't done with any weapon either.

    There is no need to select an item in the Thieves Tool Kit (TTK) when it is obvious which one of the tools is needed for the task. These three primary tools have been part of the kit since the beginning, and are as follows:

    1) Lockpicks - for opening locked portals and containers.
    2) Blunt prying knife - a strong, thick edged knife, used for prying out gems (with other possible future uses such as a wedge for pressure plates or a shimmy for doors).
    3) Sharp utility knife - a small, razor edged knife, used for precision cuts, such as removing paintings and cutting purses (with other possible future applications).



    Whether or not to animate these tools in action is another matter. Nevertheless, these three tools constitute the essential TTK. The sword, combined with the TTK, provides a comprehensive array of utility.

    Sword uses:

    1. Cut down banners
    2. Break boxes
    3. Break planks
    4. Pry planks (more stealthy)
    5. Backstabbing
    6. Blocking
    7. Hacking
    8. Bashing
    9. Cutting spider-webs
    10. Crushing Earth Mage vines
    11. Chopping away icicles
    12. Knocking arrows out of the air
    13. Cut Ropes
    14. Push buttons just out of reach
    15. Cutting away dense foliage
    16. Fending off creatures and the undead

    Thieves Tool Kit (TTK) uses:

    1. Cut out paintings (with sharp utility knife)
    2. Shimmy between a door frame and a door to quickly open a locked door (with blunt prying knife)
    3. Pry gems out of statues (with blunt prying knife)
    4. Disarm pressure plates (with blunt prying knife)

    Dagger uses:

    1. Backstabing

    Between the Sword and the TTK, Garrett has everything he needs. No need for the redundant and lesser dagger.

  18. #443
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    Garrett, in a very thief like manner, sneakily prepares a back-stab with his sword...the sword of course being the ultimate thief stealth weapon.

    I don't know man, I still am not 100% sold on the sword. Don't get me wrong, if it is Garrett + sword.....I'll still buy and enjoy the game. I've been looking forward to Swashbuckler 4....I mean Thief 4 for a long time now.

  19. #444
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    That's not a short sword...and he wouldn't wear it like that as well.

    There isn't any issue with the short sword here:

  20. #445
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    Well, I think jtr7 found the new title.

    Thief :Codename Shlong Sword.
    A bird in the hand is... Lunch tonight.

  21. #446
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    Hey, what's so funny? I mean it is Short Sword combined with Long Sword = Shlong.....oh, I see now. hehe

    It would be an awesome game....the more excited Garrett gets, the more powerful he becomes....he can peep in on people and sneak into their bedrooms/bathrooms, and then rush off to fight his opponents.

  22. #447
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    Originally Posted by Vae
    There's no need for the dagger, when Garrett has his Thieves Tool Kit (TTK). This was assumed to be used in all the games, even though no animation was present, except for the lock-picking in TDS. Notice that paintings were never cut by the sword or dagger, as neither of these are the correct tool for the job. Prying gems from statues or relief wasn't done with any weapon either.

    There is no need to select an item in the Thieves Tool Kit (TTK) when it is obvious which one of the tools is needed for the task. These three primary tools have been part of the kit since the beginning, and are as follows:

    1) Lockpicks - for opening locked portals and containers.
    2) Blunt prying knife - a strong, thick edged knife, used for prying out gems (with other possible future uses such as a wedge for pressure plates or a shimmy for doors).
    3) Sharp utility knife - a small, razor edged knife, used for precision cuts, such as removing paintings and cutting purses (with other possible future applications).



    Whether or not to animate these tools in action is another matter. Nevertheless, these three tools constitute the essential TTK. The sword, combined with the TTK, provides a comprehensive array of utility.

    Sword uses:

    1. Cut down banners
    2. Break boxes
    3. Break planks
    4. Pry planks (more stealthy)
    5. Backstabbing
    6. Blocking
    7. Hacking
    8. Bashing
    9. Cutting spider-webs
    10. Crushing Earth Mage vines
    11. Chopping away icicles
    12. Knocking arrows out of the air
    13. Cut Ropes
    14. Push buttons just out of reach
    15. Cutting away dense foliage
    16. Fending off creatures and the undead

    Thieves Tool Kit (TTK) uses:

    1. Cut out paintings (with sharp utility knife)
    2. Shimmy between a door frame and a door to quickly open a locked door (with blunt prying knife)
    3. Pry gems out of statues (with blunt prying knife)
    4. Disarm pressure plates (with blunt prying knife)

    Dagger uses:

    1. Backstabing

    Between the Sword and the TTK, Garrett has everything he needs. No need for the redundant and lesser dagger.
    Your sword utility list is inflated with useless things and things the dagger could do too.

    1 should not actually be able to be done by a sword - your sword would hit the wall and any cutting would stop or you'd make a wonderful grinding noise for the world to hear (along with dulling your blade), not to mention it could be done more precisely and less noisily by a dagger.

    2 and 11 are useless, and 7 and 8 are descriptors of the mechanism of action of the sword, not it's actual uses. By hacking and bashing the sword accomplishes many of it's uses, but they are not uses themselves.

    5 is false, it's not backstabbing, it's extreme knighting. Really, it's probably decapitation, but they were avoiding getting a worse game rating and not putting it in.

    9 and 10 didn't make sense at all, considering your arms were supposedly bound by the vines and the webbing, and your sword was sheathed! Not that grabbing a dagger from your boot would be any easier unless you could scrunch up to get your foot close to your hand (i.e. crouch).

    13 can be done with a dagger.

    Also, your TTK is a fictitious piece that's only included in the intro movie. The one Garrett actually possesses (the one he purchases with the horn of quintus) does not possess a "utility knife". You can tell it's very much not the one from the game intro based on the placement of the picks, the wire spool, and that one little pocket. There is no in game cutscene or evidence to suggest the TTK exists, or that it contains 2 different knives (I'd rather carry one dagger thanks).

    And you should decide if you really want to make the thief intro cannon, because it's also where Garrett is depicted busting a broadhead into a man's jugular, meaning he has murdered someone - don't just use it as a tool when it's convenient for your own agenda.
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  23. #448
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    I think that rather than include extra animation and such, they just showed the main uses for the sword and left it to the player to presume he has the right tools for the job other than that. I mean, those paintings just vanish rather than get cut down so you just presume that the animation of Garrett cutting it out with a sharp knife has been truncated. They could include a quick animation of Garrett cutting down the paintings etc but after a while, they would get boring and more of an annoyance than anything else.
    A bird in the hand is... Lunch tonight.

  24. #449
    Originally Posted by Tryst
    They could include a quick animation of Garrett cutting down the paintings etc but after a while, they would get boring and more of an annoyance than anything else.
    That animation (and any other) should not take away control from the player. Not for a second. So any animation should either not be connected with solid / unmovable things or cease immediately after the player touches controls.

  25. #450
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    Hypevosa has a point....again!

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