Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Why did the vampire guardians attack Raziel?

  1. #1

    Why did the vampire guardians attack Raziel?

    I'm playing through Defiance again because I'm bored silly, and I got to wondering why the vampire guardians attacked Raziel in the citadel. I doubt they even knew who he was, and if they did they should have recognized him as their prophesied savior. I suppose it made for a way to progress through the game, but it doesn't make any sense.

    I remember the Hylden that were possessing Turel (or was it Janos? I can't remember) calling Raz a "failure" and I guess to them that was reason enough for wanting him out of the way. Did the vampire guardians also see him as a failure? He had previously turned against them.

    Don't read too much into it. I'm just bored and rambling out loud.

  2. #2
    You bring up a good point. The first time I played I just fought them because they were more enemies and they gave me new reaver enhancements so I was happy, but like everything else in this series I'm sure they had a meaning. As of right now the only explination I can think of is that the gaurdians felt that Raziel was intruiding and that it was there job to, well, gaurd. Add in a few thousand years to go a tad insane, and one can wonder if they too were infected by Nupraptor's madness (just because they're dead doesn't mean that they're out of the loop. They may all be connected) and you've got a bad situation to walk into for our blue friend.
    Help out with the effort for a new Legacy of Kain game! (list updated on December 6th)
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...74#post1270474

  3. #3
    Now there's something I hadn't considered before. Nupraptor's mental corruption going all the way into the spectral realm. I can't imagine that was the case, but the guardians going a bit insane there after so long does make some sense.

    Now that I think about it, they did at least recognize Raziel as a vampire (quite a feat given that he at that point was a wraith). I can't remember which one, but one said to Raziel, "You too share the curse".

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,012
    I'm pretty sure they were there as a test. 'If you can kill us, you must be our saviour, so you can use the forge. If not, you're no use to us.'

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dumah's wraith View Post
    I'm pretty sure they were there as a test. 'If you can kill us, you must be our saviour, so you can use the forge. If not, you're no use to us.'
    That sounds the most plausable to me, although now that I've had the idea that Nupraptor's madness could have traveled through to the spectral realm I can't stop thinking of the possabilites that could be presented.
    Help out with the effort for a new Legacy of Kain game! (list updated on December 6th)
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...74#post1270474

  6. #6
    Nupraptor's madness only reached the guardians who were alive at the time of Nupraptor's reign. That's the whole reason Raziel had to fight the original guradians in the first place. They were PURE, UNCORRUPTED. Even Ariel is uncorrupted, because she died just moments before Nupraptor's attack on the circle. Kain is corrupted because he was being born at the time of Nupraptor's attack. You must remember that no member of the circle of nine can attack or usurp the other as long as the balance guardian is alive. That's why Nupraptor managed to corrupt everyone - because ariel was out of the way, and Kain was still an infant, powerless to stop him. Even if Nupraptor's poison COULD reach the past (and he would need to work with Moebius to achieve this, which clearly didn't happen), he would still need to somehow kill the balance guardian before poisoning everyone else. But I'm sure this is not the case.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dumah's wraith View Post
    I'm pretty sure they were there as a test. 'If you can kill us, you must be our saviour, so you can use the forge. If not, you're no use to us.'
    I think indeed that that is the most logical thing.....

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    7,649
    Or they were misled to believe that Raziel was of the enemy race. Janos was either told to, helped in his conclusions, or simply interpreted the prophecy wrong. This goes back to my previous theory that the original Time Guardian mislead everyone as to the true way the prophecy was to play out. This might also explain why they have a forge for a being that shouldn't have been there to use it, or that shouldn't empower a weapon they supposedly didn't intend to create... I am not suggesting that the Time Guardian, whom you also fight in this section, did so for devious reasons. I think if this is the case and he did purposefully keep people out of the loop entirely as to what was to really happen, he did so for good intentions. However, that's a theory I have. It would explain why the Reaver was really forged, what purpose soul vessels have to empower the wraith manifestation of the blade, a blade that physically was only supposed to drink blood, not suck in a soul -- a soul that becomes the very same Wraith version of it and gets bound to the arm of the one who will become it... It explains a lot, for me. Perhaps this is the case, but perhaps I am completely wrong. One way, or another, the reason for the Soul Vessels and the automatic assumption that Raziel needs to be destroyed by the Guardians needs to be explained.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    16

    eh?

    the vamps thought raziel was the hylden savior. though raziel had freewill the hylden could moderately sway raziel into doing what they wanted in avernus cathedral thus raziel was a threat to all...except kain...but raziel knew enough not to give his will fully to kain.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RABBAN View Post
    the vamps thought raziel was the hylden savior. though raziel had freewill the hylden could moderately sway raziel into doing what they wanted in avernus cathedral thus raziel was a threat to all...except kain...but raziel knew enough not to give his will fully to kain.
    Raziel was both redeemer and destroyer, some thought he was Hylden Champion others the Vampire Champion.......

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    7,649
    the vamps thought raziel was the hylden savior.
    They never call him "the unspoken," or "enemy race's champion," or even their own savior, or by his name, like Janos does (who thinks immediately he's the vampire's savior). They don't address him by name at all, so any statement on what they thought of him is just as likely.

    The simple fact of the matter is they're own spirits are linked to forges that are supposed to be set up to empower the Reaver, and the Reaver is NOT supposed to have been a Soul-empowered weapon, according to Janos, as decreed to him by the prophecy, and most likely, whomever was telling that prophecy to him. Why would the Ancients build a forge that spiritually empowers a physical blade? And which coincidentally just happens to work on the Wraith Blade? If you think this all was set up and just happened by chance, then fine, but I think it far more likely it was by design. The Time Guardian, like all others Raziel meets, again, doesn't divulge much:

    Time Guardian:
    All upon the Wheel are blessed...

    Energy Guardian:
    Rejoice in the turning of the Wheel...

    Time Guardian:
    It does turn, though we cannot see it...

    Raziel:
    Your Wheel is a lie.

    Time Guardian:
    You will turn the Wheel...

    Energy Guardian:
    Come...

    Time Guardian:
    Die...
    As do all of the other Guardians... In fact, turning the wheel might be something else than simply the Wheel of Fate, given the Pillars being the lock and the Reaver the key motif. However, on the topic, you have a Time Guardian that knew of the prophecy, convinced the others of what to do as in sacrifice themselves and bind their spirits – their very souls – to activate Spirit Vessels that would then, in turn, empower their savior's weapon... Yet, again, just by mere coincidence, these vessels empower a soul weapon, not the physical blade? No, there's more to it. There's more to the prophecy that the Time Guardian knew, I am all but positive. He told the others what they needed to hear, and even sacrificed himself to ensure it succeeded, but deep inside, he knew probably far more. Perhaps he even knew that their God was false and that the weapon they were creating would one day be part of the ultimate weapon to fight it. That, alone, would give him cause to keep most of this a secret from the others, including Janos -- the one left to guard until the Savior returned. And, again, Janos immediately thinks Raziel is Raziel and that he's the savior... Funny, if he thinks that Raziel is on the good side, even knows him by name, yet the Time Guardian and all other Guardians in the Citadel are supposed to think Raziel is the Hylden Champion... That doesn't jive. If they thought this, it was because they were told one thing, while Janos was told something else. Who could have done that?

    The Time Guardian.

    Raziel was both redeemer and destroyer, some thought he was Hylden Champion others the Vampire Champion.......
    The only ones who think Raziel are the Hylden Champion, that at least name him that, are Ariel and Mortanius -- both human. Janos thinks Raziel is the vampire Savior, addressing him by name even, but is clearly not expecting him to be in the state he is. Vorador thinks he's the Vampire Savior as well, though is distrustful both of his appearance and from him emerging from Moebius' keep. Both of these vampires think Raziel is the Savior, both of the humans immediately and without any way to convince them otherwise in their minds, think of him as the "Unspoken." So, we have a dichotomy right there. it leads me further to believe that if the vampire Guardians in the Forges thought of Raziel as of the enemy race, it could only be so because of what they were told. Who tells them their information but the one who originally saw the prophecies, and why would there be a discrepancy between what they are told and what Janos is told and what obviously told Vorador? The reason, while not clear, I do believe had to do with the Time Guardian needing to keep things form them and explain what needed to be said to ensure the prophecy came to pass. A lot is riding on this, after all. However, deeper than that, I think there's far more to the prophecy, then, than we've still seen, even more to the Time Guardian's motivations and what the plan truly is. It's no coincidence to me, therefore, that the new game was to be entitled "The Dark Prophecy."

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    19
    I agree with you about that and I think that Im only one who thinks that Hlydens are victims and I think that vampires uses pillars and curse their own race just to keep Hlydens out from Nosgoth.How can Hlydens lift on ancients that terible curse when they were tehnology advanced race,and they dont know sorcery?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    7,649
    Well, the Hylden also use magic as well, in the Glyph magic they use to power their technology. They can cast spells like shields and blast out magical green stuff at you, ha. It's true their society seems to also have a technological progression the others do not, but they do use magic as well. You can think of them kind of like Alchemists, who use an amalgamation of science and magic, but can also cast spells as well. And the Hylden Lord didn't deny cursing the vampires when Janos questioned what right their race had in doing so. He, in fact, said it was "justice" for banishing the Hylden to the Demon Realm. So, yeah, they did drop the curse on the vampires. No-one in Nosgoth is innocent, nor purely right, or wrong, which makes the whole dynamic of the races and the world of Nosgoth so interesting.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    19
    Yeah this story is so intresting,best game story 4ever
    And did you noticed how EG is small in SR,is it possible that hes dying?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5
    Well, the Spirit Forges are ceirtainly a design. Somebody built the for that purpose specifically, and the guardians were set exactly around the forge they were supposed to power. So yes, I belive it was a test. Besides, the Reaver was only PURIFIED after devouring the souls of all UNCORRUPTED guardians (coincidence?). So yes, I concurr with the idea of somebody who planned it.

    Quote Originally Posted by antun01 View Post
    Yeah this story is so intresting,best game story 4ever
    And did you noticed how EG is small in SR,is it possible that hes dying?
    I belive the same. The Elder God feeds upon the energy of the devoured souls. Since the world is populated by vampires who do not die, and only by small part of humans, he needs nourishment. That would be why it's smaller in SR.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    16
    They don't address him by name at all, so any statement on what they thought of him is just as likely.
    True.
    They called him creature and see his vampirism as a curse. but the guardians were deranged from their time in the spectral realm, they called their time their an atonement as though they sinned because of a mistake. i think the guardians believed as the rest of the vampire race before them that they sinned against their god. they were once again duped by someone else. i'd think the person responsible would be the specific architect of the pillars. the bald vampire present in all the murals that detail the pillars creation.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5
    Their sin, perhaps, was that they chose to live out their immortality so that they could maintain the pillars as long as possible so as to keep out the Hyldens.

    Not dying is a sin to the Elder God because it slows down or jams his wheel of life and death. Eventually they did die, but I'm not sure if it is made clear how. Committing suicide would apparently be the thing faithful followers of EG should do. It's sort of the opposite of most religions today which decry suicide: the vampire guardians (much like Audron) actually selflessly condemned their souls to damnnation by not choosing suicide. They chose to live longevously so that the pillars could be maintained.

    Eventually they died (killed? finally suicided?) and humans replaced them. It seems to imply that the human guardians were trained by the vampires, but in Blood Omen it seems more like it is an inherited position that just jumps to the next human who happens to be randomly born somewhere on the planet (or perhaps viscinity) when a guardian dies.

  18. #18
    I also found it a bit weird... but then again, they keep saying 'atonement' etc. When their god abandoned them, they got suicidal, and in my opinion, they saw the wreched vampire and because of their dispair, they wanted to kill him to return his soul to the Wheel just like they did to themselves.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •