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Thread: A few tips for the people playing as one or playing with one.

A few tips for the people playing as one or playing with one.

  1. #26
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    Originally Posted by CoOkiedude
    Right. A few things. I was gonna say something on your first post, but in case you didn't notice I made this thread about 8 days before you posted and on top of that the very next day I edited in that Enrage is very powerful in its own way. Now a few more things.I'm fairly certain that if we take skill completely out of the equation I've played Tyrant a LOT. A crapton actually. Like, my game time with reaver is 5-6 hours, sentinel is 2-3 and Tyrant is 15. (Taken from the profile thingy in-game). So I'm fairly certain I may not be the best or anything like that (nor do I claim to be ) but I'm quite knowledgeable and decent at it. In fact right after cmstache made me aware of how Enrage works, I playtested even the most ridiculous situations for 5 days straight to figure the skill out.


    A few clarifications. Enrage does buff your movement speed while charging. It buffs everything basically. As cmstache said, it even buffs the fall damage taken when you get thrown off a cliff by an Enraged Tyrant. Also Enrage breaks Shockwave. What that means is, when you are at or below 50% hp with enrage on sometimes, for reasons unknown to me , it will buff the animation speed of shockwave and it will come out faster.Also , Enraging+Charging when your hp is at 70% or lower, will allow you to travel roughly the same distance as a 5 second Marathon Charge.


    This is pretty much awesome. I had a feeling it might, but not enough to claim it.



    Now on to a few points you made.Enrage is cool and all, and can do a lot of things but my instincts were spot on before I even tried it. It basically changes your function in the game. Even if you know exactly 100% of the time what to do and how to engage, playing with Enrage simply means you have to be twice more cautious than before about engaging and a lot of times you will probably not even engage because you will get shredded too fast.You switch roles from engaging to dealing damage. There's a small problem with that however. This plan works against unorganized teams and people who don't understand what it means when a Tyrant goes red (I'm not talking about not recognizing Enrage, I will explain shortly) but it will never work against people who are experienced in this game and know the ins and outs of it thus far.

    Tell that to Plux, Oroi, Omega, and Strike.

    What this means is, by forgoing Ignore Pain , you basically assume you will get good charges without being spotted often and that you will be able to get a few hard hitting Shockwaves even if that doesn't quite work out the way you wanted.That's a neat plan and all (I had the same plan at the start)but then you play against Omhz's or Derputy Potato's or Vae Victis's Hunters or Raina's Alchemist and suddenly the problem sort of dawns on you.You are a Reaver with no Choking Haze and no way to escape if you get focus fire'd. Sure you can charge people from out of sight and try and get the better of them but these are again, tactics against people with no or limited awareness and very little experience in the game. Playing against high level players has taught me that with Enrage the optimal way to go into a group of humans, is waiting on another vampire to initiate, besides yourself. So in a situation where you have a second Tyrant doing the heavy duty work this could work. If you are the only Tyrant however against a group of skilled players, Enrage will always, always, always be sub-par to Ignore Pain. ALWAYS. Because those skilled people will punish you for it.

    This is like saying Haste is never better than evasion on a reaver. One is obviously more useful and easier to use, but that doesn't mean the other is worthless, it just makes you play differently. Your flaw in this argument is that all of the players I mentioned above do very well against good players. It's rare to see any of the four i mentioned score under 20k as a tyrant, and that IS against those better players you mentioned, while in organized teams.

    Since you mentioned my tips were good for beginners, I figured since I constantly play with what I consider the top players these past days I should go into some more advanced advice right?So as a Tyrant you should always be mindful of the number of Hunters in a group if you want to run Enrage. If there's 2 or more and you don't have Ignore Pain, you're basically suiciding. Bola DESTROYS Enrage Tyrants for breakfast. Seriously it's the most obnoxious thing, to pop your Enrage and try and get a good shockwave or a few attacks in , only to get bola'd in the face and then annihilated by incoming fire. A good concept to engage humans with Enrage is popping it before you attack, dropping on them from a cliff or a rooftop, Shockwaving and then Charging immediately so you can avoid possible incoming CC. As I mentioned before ,however, by picking Enrage you aren't an initiator anymore so you have to wait for someone to go in before you or with you , otherwise even if you pop Enrage and charge into them , you will still get shredded.

    Absolutely right, and this has been discussed, but it wouldn't be such a big deal if you could still dodge with bola. The testers seem to like it the way it is, but almost all the community players, except hunter players (and even some of them too) find bola pretty brokenly OP for how low the cooldown is combined with how easy it is to land.

    Good humans NEVER bunch up and always know how to dodge a Charge most of the time so before Charging in , make sure you understand how the humans are positioned at that moment. Otherwise you will end up being completely dodged+shredded to pieces.Which is why Marathon Charge is in a lot of cases superior. Its long cooldown is an issue for sure but being able to start Charge from a longer distance means the Humans won't hear the audio cue of your voice and you will also have some space to catch those dodging at the last moment.That doesn't mean that regular charge doesn't have its merits. It simply means the skill is a little weird at the moment and in my humble opinion those 2 should be merged together into one skill. Like a 18 cd Charge for 325 damage that goes for 5 seconds or 4.75. But that's another story.

    This is an issue with people not charging properly honestly, not as much charge itself. This is also predominantly a marathon charge problem since you can hear it coming from across the dang map. Charge has to be close anyways, so it's useful.

    Lastly I want to say this. Breaking 12k with a horrible team is cool, but you could probably break 12k with Ignore Pain too(in my experience), simply by being able to go in more often. And don't forget, being able to effectively soak up damage, allows your team to go in as well and creates more opportunities.Generally when you play with a mindset of dealing damage as a Tyrant , more often than not, you're not doing your job right.But I covered my reasons in my initial post. Of course I'm talking high level play games of which we have very few at the moment and not random games where there's usually 2-3 people who know what they're doing and the rest just try to get to know the game better.Also. Jump is very unpredictable too and VERY terrifying if you know how to manipulate it but I don't want to go into details yet =).

    Comments inline...


    Jump isn't always the greatest, it has it's places and benefits, but not always. Strike is a very knowledgeable player, and a veteran. You're going to have a hard time finding a player to say he's wrong. He might not be 100% correct, but he knows very well his own abilities. He's better than I am, that's for sure.

    I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but as a newer player (and yes, 17 hrs is considered new still, esp since there's no teams....) you'd do well to pay attention to what he says.
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  2. #27
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    Comments inline...


    Jump isn't always the greatest, it has it's places and benefits, but not always. Strike is a very knowledgeable player, and a veteran. You're going to have a hard time finding a player to say he's wrong. He might not be 100% correct, but he knows very well his own abilities. He's better than I am, that's for sure.

    I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but as a newer player (and yes, 17 hrs is considered new still, esp since there's no teams....) you'd do well to pay attention to what he says.
    You understand that it's profile game time right? I have 100 hours logged on Nosgoth and I'm fairly certain that's not being "new" in ANY game. But you know, to each his own.Also, I play with Plux very regularly and I'm very aware of how he plays with Tyrant and we very often discuss different strategies and playstyles. I can understand if Strike is your friend /brother-in-arms you'll take his side or whatever this red-painted attack on the eyes is. But please leave the patronizing out of this. It's rude.

    And I'd rather playtest against good players and learn on my own , than take the word of someone who is a complete stranger to me.If you don't do that , that's your problem. That's not how I do things.Also . I wasn't in any shape or form trying to say Strike is a bad player or that he is wrong, I was merely pointing out things I disagree with hence the detailed explanations of my arguments and opinions so as not to offend anyone.In fact , the point of my post, which you unfortunately missed, is to disagree on specific things and create a discussion / debate with Strike so I can see his counterarguments. I want to know what his take on Tyrant's playstyle is and I want him to share his own experiences. That's why I quoted HIM not you.Also , Strike was perfectly polite and the only reason I mentioned my game time was to show him that I wasn't yet another truly newer player who thought he had a grip on things.

    Also, my "flawed" argument is based on actual PERSONAL gameplay experience vs the really good players as TYRANT. And by the way, that Haste vs Evasion thing only serves to bolster my argument since there's a fundamental difference in the core of a Reaver and a Tyrant. One has 1450 hp the other doesn't. Why do you think that is? Is it for you to deal more damage , or is it perhaps for you to soak up more damage and ammo so that your 1050 hp Reaver buddy can follow up with a pounce? I choose to believe the latter. It's my opinion. Nothing more.

    On a final note. I know you're a good kid and you have a good reputation and I don't want to make any enemies because frankly this is the internet and it's easy to mistake one thing for another. But my general gripe with some of your comments is that you don't offer any further insight into the subject at hand, nor do you elaborate on specific Tyrant mechanics and / or matchups. You simply say that " I've seen player X do well with that skill every time so he must be right and your argument is flawed". You don't offer examples from your own time with a Tyrant , you simply tell me that someone else is probably better than me/more experienced than me , because you don't know me and you know them and you have seen them do well, so I should listen to them. Do you see my problem? I have nothing against you but the way you comment offends me.

    It's late here and I'm a little cranky because I have been playing with 35 fps all day for NO reason and I'm too tired to be as polite as I would like so I leave you with this. If I have been rude, forgive me but I explained what provoked my frustration. If you can understand my issue then all is well and I love you anyway.
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  3. #28
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    I understand well how things can be misconstrued on the interwebz. But, for clarification purposes, I'm not adding much here because I am terrible with a tyrant. Hunter and Tyrant are by far and away my worst classes. Any strategies I have won't be of much use. I can fight them all day, but not as one.

    And I'm not saying he's good because I've seen him do well. I'm saying he does well at least 75% of the games I've played in nosgoth have been on his team with voice chat. I know what and why he's doing what he's doing. In all fairness I haven't been on voice-chat with you, so I don't know what you're thinking. You're a decent player in your own right, but I don't feel you (or myself for that matter) are good enough to say a specific skill flat out won't work, as you came across saying. Obviously, echolocation is the exception to that statement.....
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  4. #29
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    I understand well how things can be misconstrued on the interwebz. But, for clarification purposes, I'm not adding much here because I am terrible with a tyrant. Hunter and Tyrant are by far and away my worst classes. Any strategies I have won't be of much use. I can fight them all day, but not as one.

    And I'm not saying he's good because I've seen him do well. I'm saying he does well at least 75% of the games I've played in nosgoth have been on his team with voice chat. I know what and why he's doing what he's doing. In all fairness I haven't been on voice-chat with you, so I don't know what you're thinking. You're a decent player in your own right, but I don't feel you (or myself for that matter) are good enough to say a specific skill flat out won't work, as you came across saying. Obviously, echolocation is the exception to that statement.....
    See this is a point I understand more clearly. You are correct in saying that and perhaps my adamant support of Ignore Pain helped give off the wrong impression but I truly do not believe that Enrage is a bad skill.In ANY way. I just theorize through my own experience playing as and against a Tyrant , that come party-locking /competitive play, Ignore Pain will outshine Enrage in setups with a single Tyrant. Also I'm very envious of you because all the people I'd like to play with , with voice chat, always end up on the opposing team.
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  5. #30
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    Well I'm with cookie, Enrage absolutely needs a proper team to help manage aggro. Same as haste. There are some people who go as far as to say Haste and Enrage are really bad since you can't break CC, but I'm more cautious than that since we haven't been able to play in a truly competitive environment yet.

    I aim to not die at all in matches as a tyrant, denying kills is as important as getting them, I can't see that working with Enrage.

  6. #31
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    Originally Posted by Oroibahazopi
    Well I'm with cookie, Enrage absolutely needs a proper team to help manage aggro. Same as haste. There are some people who go as far as to say Haste and Enrage are really bad since you can't break CC, but I'm more cautious than that since we haven't been able to play in a truly competitive environment yet.

    I aim to not die at all in matches as a tyrant, denying kills is as important as getting them, I can't see that working with Enrage.
    Currently the reason why I haven't bought Enrage / Haste is because teams still average 2-3 hunters, and due to the large influx of new players, can't always count on the skill from the players I grew accustomed to being around, yourself, omega, rat, hugz, sausage etc... Another concern, tying back to the hunter point, is that currently, every hunter has a bola. I am that as soon as hunters get a viable skill to replace bola/poison in that slot, that isn't just another CC, then haste and enrage will have an expanded role in the game.

    Two new human classes are also on the way. So long as they aren't always packing CC like the hunter, then the previous point also applies.
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  7. #32
    Originally Posted by Razaiim
    Currently the reason why I haven't bought Enrage / Haste is because teams still average 2-3 hunters, and due to the large influx of new players, can't always count on the skill from the players I grew accustomed to being around, yourself, omega, rat, hugz, sausage etc... Another concern, tying back to the hunter point, is that currently, every hunter has a bola. I am that as soon as hunters get a viable skill to replace bola/poison in that slot, that isn't just another CC, then haste and enrage will have an expanded role in the game.

    Two new human classes are also on the way. So long as they aren't always packing CC like the hunter, then the previous point also applies.
    Very interesting point you brought up with the hard CC. Honestly I wouldn't feel so screwed if I could at least dodge a little bit while bola'd. Cmstache mentioned this in this thread and I think perhaps it could be looked into. Derputy Potato told me at a certain point in the Alpha you could dodge while under bola CC ? Or did I mishear?If so why was it changed? Either way it's currently the only CC in the game that absolutely neutralizes a vampire even though they have skills that can break out of it.

    The problem is that while I understand that when you pick Enrage or Haste the tradeoff for the damage should be survivability, currently with bola it feels like it's too extreme. You don't get bola'd while buffed, you do your thing. You DO get bola'd,you are DONE. Nothing to do but look pretty while you die.This coupled with the low duration (for understandable balance purposes) of the aforementioned offensive buffs feels a little too harsh. But then again, maybe this is all bad feedback since we can't play competitively in teams yet, to accurately test if this is the case.
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  8. #33
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    We've confirmed with the QA guys that they are the ones who had it changed. While, I agree that many changes they do aren't bad I think they really messed this one up bad. I don't know any actually players (who don't play hunter exclusively) that like the change. Few to no players complained before it happened, and has been a pain in the nuts ever since, You are right, it's just toooo extreme. The payoff is too big for such an easily usable skill, Even the knives, which lean a bit strong, aren't that strong.
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  9. #34
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    We've confirmed with the QA guys that they are the ones who had it changed. While, I agree that many changes they do aren't bad I think they really messed this one up bad. I don't know any actually players (who don't play hunter exclusively) that like the change. Few to no players complained before it happened, and has been a pain in the nuts ever since, You are right, it's just toooo extreme. The payoff is too big for such an easily usable skill, Even the knives, which lean a bit strong, aren't that strong.
    I just had an idea. What if, while you are bola'd , if they attack you the bola breaks after a certain damage cap. That way bola won't be as mindless as before and people will also have an actual choice between focusing a CC'd vampire or ignoring it for another one.AND you won't feel so screwed when you pick Enrage or Haste anymore since if they decide to spray you with bolts you break out of it sooner and get a few shots in yourself.AND as vampire you have an active choice of either jumping into incoming fire to get out of bola or wait it out!Interesting?

    Edit: It's a given, of course, that poison bola damage doesn't count towards that amount. Also I was thinking , perhaps the damage cap for the regular bola would be a bit higher than the poison so as to differentiate them further.
    Last edited by CoOkiedude; 15th Feb 2014 at 22:22.
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  10. #35
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    This might not be a bad idea. Although, i did forget to mention. Any penalties for being caught by bola is harsh vs a team.
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  11. #36
    I'm assuming you mean for the team using the bola? Nonetheless I was thinking this way bola would be toned down in strength and would also open up more gameplay options.And would actually allow other skills to be viable when they come out to compete with bola for the slot.
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  12. #37
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    Yes, the team using a bola is ideally much more synchronized. This means that the bola'd individual gets instantly punished.
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  13. #38
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    Yes, the team using a bola is ideally much more synchronized. This means that the bola'd individual gets instantly punished.
    Right I got it now. You're not commenting in reference to my idea, it's a general remark about the extra power of bola in a team setting. Sorry I'm slow today -_-
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  14. #39
    Oh ! Another idea I had was that instead of a damage cap, bola could perhaps be broken by a friendly vampire attacking you! It could for example take two melee hits to break or something. I know I might be stretching this particular issue but this is alpha so I'm guessing idea time is now or never :P
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  15. #40
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    Would need to remove cleave then or in a big melee brawl bola would be rendered useless.

  16. #41
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    They just need to cut the duration down by about 40%. Then it wouldn't be such a huge deal. It's not that I can't do anything.. it's that I can't do anything for as long as I can. Even the badass knives don't hurt that much.
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  17. #42
    Originally Posted by Oroibahazopi
    Would need to remove cleave then or in a big melee brawl bola would be rendered useless.
    I see your point but that's a very specific situation and I'm not sure it would happen too often.Plus from a different point of view, it would make using bola not as brainless. The thing is, Bola successfully punishes vampires who pick offensive buffs instead of defensive. My problem is , there is no counterplay to it. You get hit , you die. I wanted to come up with a few ideas that would allow the hunter to keep them in check as long as he does with bola but at the same time would have some sort of counter-mechanic to it besides the classic "Run Takeoff-Ignore Pain-Evasion or die horribly." I believe that lowering the duration would not help as much. In fact I think a lower duration would make it go from godly to "eh" very fast... Arrgh. It's difficult to figure this out
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  18. #43
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    How would 2 second duration break it? Not only does it cancel abilities, but it keeps you from using anything after. 2 seconds is a LONG time in a fight, 4 is just insane. Half the fight is over.
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  19. #44
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    How would 2 second duration break it? Not only does it cancel abilities, but it keeps you from using anything after. 2 seconds is a LONG time in a fight, 4 is just insane. Half the fight is over.
    It won't necessarily break it , I just think it might make it a touch negligible.2 seconds is a lot I know but given that the buffs last 7 it's not that much...
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  20. #45
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    The defensive buffs break it, so regardless it won't matter about duration. As far as Enrage and Haste go, it's still not a major point. You've successfully turned them from offensive to defensive (or at least turning the match 4v4 into 3v4), thus still blowing their skill, and if they are already activated they just run away faster. Worst case scenario: it's bumped up to 2.5 or 3 seconds, still slightly more tolerable than now. There isn't a single ability other than bola that humans have that can make a vampire completely and utterly useless and helpless at the same time.
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  21. #46
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    There isn't a single ability other than bola that humans have that can make a vampire completely and utterly useless and helpless at the same time.
    I believe we agreed on that :P I like 2.5-3 seconds better as a start. If it would have to be a straight up nerf I mean. I still think that introducing some sort of counter-mechanic would be cooler but perhaps it's not necessary.
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  22. #47
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    The defensive perks ARE the straight up counters. And those will also have partial nerfs if bola has a nerf, since many people use it specifically against bola.
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  23. #48
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    The defensive perks ARE the straight up counters. And those will also have partial nerfs if bola has a nerf, since many people use it specifically against bola.
    Perhaps the current issue is, much like Choking Haze , that Bola is the only skill available to the hunter for his Q ability. So maybe if more viable skills were introduced we could see a switch from Bola and then other vampire skills could shine too. I agree that the defensive skills are a counter-measure absolutely but we also commented on how frustrating it is to run offensive skills only to get destroyed by Hunters.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, Bola punishes you for running offensive Buffs but even if you run defensive abilities, due to their nature of disabling your attack, Bola has accomplished its purpose by keeping you out of the fight, again .You might not die but you don't do damage either so it's effectively still a 3v4. It's a peculiar subject for sure.
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  24. #49
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    Originally Posted by CoOkiedude

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, Bola punishes you for running offensive Buffs but even if you run defensive abilities, due to their nature of disabling your attack, Bola has accomplished its purpose by keeping you out of the fight, again .You might not die but you don't do damage either so it's effectively still a 3v4.
    That's probably a better analogy.
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  25. #50
    I guess it's time I also commented on the tyrant gameplay. First of all you guys seem to all agree that jump + ignore pain is a must if you want to do some jumping around. I've been running jump with enrage for quite a while now and i must admit that enrage is far superior to ignore pain. Not only you can jump for longer distances but also you can deal up to a whopping 650 damage if you aim correctly (and that's done with full hp). That is enough to one shot anything after landing. If combined with chocking haze it becomes absolutely brutal. I also run berserk perk which works perfectly in this setup (if you get low on hp you practically instagib anything with shockwave).

    I generally think that ignore pain is simply bad. It's the equivalent of scout's invisibility. A skill that lets you live a bit longer while your team gets butchered and you can't do anything to help them. If you pop it when you are low the damage reduction is often not high enough to keep you alive anyway. If you pop it to break out of bolla it actually takes you longer to attack anything than if you just let it finish. Also a good hunter will let your ignore pain finish and then bolla you to deny any damage or wait untill you almost reach the top of the building to force you back to the ground. This skill is in no way comparable to reaver's evasion thingy. Reavers can jump in, drop couple fast melees to finish off low hp humans and then pop evasion and run away without loosing much hp. This kind of scenario is not possible as a tyrant. You are a big and slow target and either you straight up die in such engagement, or you get away but you are so low on hp that you can't effectively fight, or you pop ignore early and do no damage at all.

    Successful jumping is massively dependant on your map knowlege. If you don't know exactly how far you can reach there is no way you can line up a perfect jump. If you jump onto a structure that has higher elevation than the spot from where you launched you won't trigger a cooldown which allows you to traverse the map extremly fast and you can make some ginormous cross map double jumps. Many buildings have ceiling holes that you can abuse since nobody expects a tyrant falling through there. If you plan to engage with a jump you should always wait until the scouts look the other way without revealing your location and you should almost never jump from a top of a building.

    Most of the times after a good jump you will not get a bolla to your face straight away because all the nearby humans are either staggered or rolled out of range which gives you enough time to doge (especially with enrage on). Even if you get cc'd you simply line of sight nearby humans and line up a nice shockwave as soon as they come from behind a corner. All the damage that you soak only makes your attacks more deadly and often you deal so much damage with the jump that humans are more concerned about staying alive than finishing you off. If any human leftovers survive your team's assault you can easily chase them with another jump.

    The biggest threats to this kind of tyrant gameplay are of course all the area of effect skills, especially alch's poison and scout's turret. Also you get much heavier damage form hunter's explosive shot since tyrants are so big that they take all 3 shots directly to the face. Also alch's cannon can be extremly deadly if you get stuck in a corner.

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