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Thread: The Future of Tomb Raider

  1. #1
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    The Future of Tomb Raider

    I've recently, finally, had the time to play Tomb Raider. The only experience I previously had was playing the very first game (the one Anniversary is based on) and I only got half way through, although I was really impressed with it. Everyone has different things they enjoy, but this one fits me to a T.

    Now I'm going to play them all, starting with Legend and Anniversary on my PS2 and ending with Underworld on my PS3. I'm almost finished with Legend and it's been a blast.

    Here's my question. What are the plans to continue the series? From what I hear, Underworld is changing the paradigm somewhat. It would be nice to have something to look forward to after Underworld.

    I suspect I'm covering old ground here, and if I am, my sincere apologies.

  2. #2
    The future of Tomb Raider is that it will remain a commercial thing for kids who have no idea what a good game is and are totally amazed just by graphics that look all greenish to me. But there is another future for Tomb Raider as well, and that's the custom level world, with thousands of them and many, many people from the entire world playing them for free. That is the non-commercial Tomb Raider that comes from the heart, but I don't really expect you or any of all these new fans to understand the notion. I'll tell you this, though: my 10 year old son doesn't want anything to do with the "new" Tomb Raider. He says it's nothing like the Tomb Raider games I play. So, you multiply him by many other kids whose families know something about Tomb Raider as it really is and you have a huge number of people to always keep the real Tomb Raider alive. I must tell you this, even though you'll think I'm raining on your parade, while Eidos keeps releasing new Tomb Raider games with awful commands and no personality at all, they withdraw their support to the continuation of really great Eidos games such as Omikron - that says a lot.

  3. #3
    To answer the question in the OP, no there haven't been any announcements for the next TR game. (or LoK game).

    I would disagree with Jorge22 on some of the things about where TR is at now, and will continue to be. There is a different personality in them, and they manage to capture some of what made TR really great; and there are plenty of fans of the classic TRs that have come to appreciate the CD TR games.
    But the TRLE-community is indeed a great place for the fans of Core Design TR fans, who don't appreciate the CD games. Also good for those who liked the Core games as well.

  4. #4
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    I love the classic TR and have built one or two levels myself.

    As I have only played a couple of hundred custom levels so far, there are still over a thousand for me to play (and still new ones are being created).

    Long live TR.

    As this is solely related to TR, it would probably be better situated in the TR forums. Allow me to re-direct.
    Ham and Eggs - a days work for the chicken, a lifetime commitment for the pig.
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  5. #5
    There is a wondefully bright future for Tomb Raider, contrary to some negative voices, I LOVE all of the games, each in their own way, the newest ones are marvels of their own kind, and the older ones are beautiful too. Each has its own special qualities and I have every assurance that Eidos and the chosen developers will continue to make wonderful games for the next decade at least. So I hope you will join us as we all continue to move into the future with Lara and these wonderful games.

    Tomb Raider Last Revelations



    and the "new" TR is equally beautiful....



    and the future is bright indeed......

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge22 View Post
    The future of Tomb Raider is that it will remain a commercial thing for kids who have no idea what a good game is and are totally amazed just by graphics that look all greenish to me. But there is another future for Tomb Raider as well, and that's the custom level world, with thousands of them and many, many people from the entire world playing them for free. That is the non-commercial Tomb Raider that comes from the heart, but I don't really expect you or any of all these new fans to understand the notion. I'll tell you this, though: my 10 year old son doesn't want anything to do with the "new" Tomb Raider. He says it's nothing like the Tomb Raider games I play. So, you multiply him by many other kids whose families know something about Tomb Raider as it really is and you have a huge number of people to always keep the real Tomb Raider alive. I must tell you this, even though you'll think I'm raining on your parade, while Eidos keeps releasing new Tomb Raider games with awful commands and no personality at all, they withdraw their support to the continuation of really great Eidos games such as Omikron - that says a lot.
    I'm a hard core Core Tr fan also but I do have to give credit were it is due. CD probably saved TR from oblivion. Underworld at least was very close to the feel of the old core games with some new twists. Do I like the increased human combat no, Do I like how they have changed her personality, no. I hate the shortness of new games plus the fact that there is no where near enough traps and exploring. Plus dag namit they burned the dang mansion down. Bunch of vandals!

    Having said that; the old Core games by the time TR4 were bad in need of modern controls. If nothing else , mouse look and turn. We have that now. The graphics are stunningly beautiful (the MAIN reason they are so short unfortunately ). Its really easy to immerse oneself in the game. I will never go to any of the places that inspired the game locations but for a few hour I can feel like I did. I would love to see the perfect combo of the Core games mixed with the graphics and controls CD has given us. We probably won't because the newer players don't have much in the way of patience. There is no reason however to change who Lara is or what TR is but there is also no reason we can't upgrade graphics and controls. If CD does blow it totally which having played Underworld I don't think they will. We should hopefully have several really nice games to play. If they do blow it well I'll play the old ones and community maps . Their loss.

  7. #7
    I know I've heard a few panicked voices over TR being cancelled.........but to me that's just ridiculous. Cancelling TR would be almost the equivalent of Nintendo cancelling Zelda. "Hmm, we've got this vastly popular, profitable franchise that's recognized all over the world.....let's can it!" I don't think so.

    And as for those who say Lara is running out of places to go to, that's also crazy. This world is huge. I was just flipping through my Greatest World's Treasures book and came across all kinds of things Lara could hunt down next: the mystery of the Antikythera Mechanism (basically solved, but I'm sure CD could juice up a story about it), the classics the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail, King Solomon's mines, El Dorado, etc. And of course they can always make something up, in fact they usually do. Lara's never been to the Arabian Peninsula, ancient Mesopotamia, or Korea, and she's spent little time in North America, India, and sub-Saharan Africa. And even then, to bring up Zelda again, well Link has been in the same freakin' kingdom almost every game for the past 22 years, fighting the same freakin' bad guy, and it never gets old.

    Lara's got a lot ahead of her and I can't wait to see what happens. Hopefully it will include seeing Croft Manor's bathroom and kitchen again.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by The Sage Nabooru View Post
    I know I've heard a few panicked voices over TR being cancelled.........but to me that's just ridiculous. Cancelling TR would be almost the equivalent of Nintendo cancelling Zelda. "Hmm, we've got this vastly popular, profitable franchise that's recognized all over the world.....let's can it!" I don't think so.

    And as for those who say Lara is running out of places to go to, that's also crazy. This world is huge. I was just flipping through my Greatest World's Treasures book and came across all kinds of things Lara could hunt down next: the mystery of the Antikythera Mechanism (basically solved, but I'm sure CD could juice up a story about it), the classics the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail, King Solomon's mines, El Dorado, etc. And of course they can always make something up, in fact they usually do. Lara's never been to the Arabian Peninsula, ancient Mesopotamia, or Korea, and she's spent little time in North America, India, and sub-Saharan Africa. And even then, to bring up Zelda again, well Link has been in the same freakin' kingdom almost every game for the past 22 years, fighting the same freakin' bad guy, and it never gets old.

    Lara's got a lot ahead of her and I can't wait to see what happens. Hopefully it will include seeing Croft Manor's bathroom and kitchen again.

    WELL SAID.

  9. #9
    One possible strategy would be what they are doing now which is to try keeping both the fanbase and the mainstream market happy. It results in generaly happy fans, except for those die-hard Core-boys, but within the mainstream media it is criticized for being nothing new and it results in mediocre ratings: sixes and sevens. In the meanwhile it will be overshadowed by new series like Uncharted -untill of course that series is also abandoned by the mainstream as being old and nothing new. After all this is not the middle ages anymore, people praise the new and original.

    Another possibility is to forget about traditions and stuff and focus completely on what makes good gameplay that is enjoyed by the majority of gamers while certain antiquated elements need to be removed, even though they have been around since the beginning. Its what they did on Legend and as a result it has been the most positively received game in years within the mainstream media while it produced lots of whiners within the fanbase.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    Another possibility is to forget about traditions and stuff and focus completely on what makes good gameplay that is enjoyed by the majority of gamers while certain antiquated elements need to be removed, even though they have been around since the beginning. Its what they did on Legend and as a result it has been the most positively received game in years within the mainstream media while it produced lots of whiners within the fanbase.
    If your going to do that though, why not just go with a new IP. I like new IP's . I get more choices. No baggage to carry around in a new IP. What we are getting now is TR fluff.( Make no mistake I absolutely enjoyed Underworld by the way). Just enough TR that they can get away with calling it TR but not enough change to call it something else. Innovative gameplay, stunning graphics, great new controls doesn't mean you have to change the basic premise of the TR franchise. Which was platforming and search and discovery. The Core fan base is the only reason CD got a chance at TR. It wasn't the Johnny come latelys to TR that prompted Legend release. It was the old evil Core fans who of course absolutely hate any change. The new fans are going to change it so us old fans go away then Lara can carry a tactical nuke around. I'll most likely still play them but they won't really be TR.

  11. #11
    Sorry... IP??

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    Sorry... IP??
    Intellectual property. A totally new game franchise. Gears of War 1 was a new IP when it came out.

    In fact I would love to see a new franchise with a girl like in Perfect Dark(I think that its name, been awhile). Aren't enough girl character games. She could be a total bad ass. Sort of a combo of 007, Indiana Jones, hell throw a little Wonder woman into the mix.. Think of the awesome weapons and combat possible.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GoLarago View Post
    If your going to do that though, why not just go with a new IP. I like new IP's . I get more choices. No baggage to carry around in a new IP. What we are getting now is TR fluff.( Make no mistake I absolutely enjoyed Underworld by the way). Just enough TR that they can get away with calling it TR but not enough change to call it something else. Innovative gameplay, stunning graphics, great new controls doesn't mean you have to change the basic premise of the TR franchise. Which was platforming and search and discovery. The Core fan base is the only reason CD got a chance at TR. It wasn't the Johnny come latelys to TR that prompted Legend release. It was the old evil Core fans who of course absolutely hate any change. The new fans are going to change it so us old fans go away then Lara can carry a tactical nuke around. I'll most likely still play them but they won't really be TR.
    Right... Well I don't think that in that scenario it may just as well be a new franchise: it simply implies that rather than the improvement of the most succesfull elements only, the developers should also consider the removal and/or replacement of elements on which improvement is not possible.

    For instance in my opinion Underworld would have been a better game without the combat as it is now. If they can't improve it I think they should consider removing it. Maybe replace it with stealth. But in that regard Tomb Raider suffers from being a long-lived franchise: it tends to be conservative in dealing with things and that gives new-born franchises like Uncharted an edge over the old ones.
    Its not impossible for the oldies to do those changes, they just need the guts to do it. I strongly believe its either that or we should just accept that the mainstream media will crown Uncharted as the new king of ancient ruines-based 3rd person game -untill, like I said, they become sick of that franchise as well-

  14. #14
    I still think that the game suffers a little with the developers.

    Don't get me wrong, I really like the work they have done but they are too busy making everything look pretty and sacrifice gameplay.

    Even in their blog/podcasts, they admitted that before release, they frequently crashed the PS3 and XBox versions of the game.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    Right... Well I don't think that in that scenario it may just as well be a new franchise: it simply implies that rather than the improvement of the most succesfull elements only, the developers should also consider the removal and/or replacement of elements on which improvement is not possible.

    For instance in my opinion Underworld would have been a better game without the combat as it is now. If they can't improve it I think they should consider removing it. Maybe replace it with stealth. But in that regard Tomb Raider suffers from being a long-lived franchise: it tends to be conservative in dealing with things and that gives new-born franchises like Uncharted an edge over the old ones.
    Its not impossible for the oldies to do those changes, they just need the guts to do it. I strongly believe its either that or we should just accept that the mainstream media will crown Uncharted as the new king of ancient ruines-based 3rd person game -untill, like I said, they become sick of that franchise as well-
    That's what I was getting at if you change too much its only TR in name. Then they may as well call it something else. Still may be lots of fun to play but wouldn't be a real TR game. That's where a new IP would come in.

    As for combat with people that was never a really big thing in TR games. At least not until probably AoD. I could take it or leave it. I didn't however think it was bad in Underworld not compared to the old Core games. I always felt combat especially with people, except for the Bosses of course, interfered with hunting for goodies. TR hasn't ever really been a run and gun series.

    Conservative maybe but I don't hate adding new things and capabilities to Lara.I want new people to come to enjoy playing TR. I don't mind her sneaking around. I love Splinter cell. I actually didn't mind the npc's in AoD though its not my favorite TR. The meat of TR in my opinion has always been exploration, isolation, and treasures. Leading up to an actual raiding event however, I would love to see her pushing herself thru crowded streets plum full of people just like in Assassins Creed. Entering some shop to have a conversion that takes her to the entrance of her next defiling of some poor souls tomb. Adding some mirrors edge type or Prince of Persia type wall walking moves to her capabilities would be grand. What is missing and was the most fun for me at least was all the freaking traps, puzzles and places you could go that really had nothing to do with the puzzles that got you to the next level. You weren't in any hurry to get to the end. The journey was what mattered.

  16. #16
    Plan "A":
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    One possible strategy would be what they are doing now which is to try keeping both the fanbase and the mainstream market happy. It results in generaly happy fans, except for those die-hard Core-boys, but within the mainstream media it is criticized for being nothing new and it results in mediocre ratings....
    After all this is not the middle ages anymore, people praise the new and original.
    (This seems to be "stick with the old, advance with the new at the same time")

    Plan "B":
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    Another possibility is to forget about traditions and stuff and focus completely on what makes good gameplay that is enjoyed by the majority of gamers while certain antiquated elements need to be removed, even though they have been around since the beginning. Its what they did on Legend and as a result it has been the most positively received game in years within the mainstream media while it produced lots of whiners within the fanbase.
    (This seems to be "old traditions are irrelavent, it's about survival")

    On the issue of the introduction of new game features, the conservative view should be considered carefully; one example of "new and cool" ruining a series is the Commandos series. It's a stealth, real-time tactics game. The latest game, Commandos: Strike Force moved away from this, and became an action-oriented FPS, that ''blended in" with the crowd, and instead of being something special, a game of the commandos series, it was 'ordinary' at best, horrible at worst.
    The main issue with "Plan B" is that if it differs from what the game was originally, there is little point in having it different. It's likely to copy the things other games do well, but undoubtably any feature along these lines would be old and substandard in comparision. If future TR games hold little (or none) of what makes them TR games, then there is no point in calling it TR, or making the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoLarago View Post
    That's what I was getting at if you change too much its only TR in name. Then they may as well call it something else. Still may be lots of fun to play but wouldn't be a real TR game. That's where a new IP would come in.

    As for combat with people that was never a really big thing in TR games. At least not until probably AoD. I could take it or leave it. I didn't however think it was bad in Underworld not compared to the old Core games. I always felt combat especially with people, except for the Bosses of course, interfered with hunting for goodies. TR hasn't ever really been a run and gun series.

    Conservative maybe but I don't hate adding new things and capabilities to Lara.I want new people to come to enjoy playing TR. I don't mind her sneaking around. I love Splinter cell. I actually didn't mind the npc's in AoD though its not my favorite TR. The meat of TR in my opinion has always been exploration, isolation, and treasures. Leading up to an actual raiding event however, I would love to see her pushing herself thru crowded streets plum full of people just like in Assassins Creed. Entering some shop to have a conversion that takes her to the entrance of her next defiling of some poor souls tomb. Adding some mirrors edge type or Prince of Persia type wall walking moves to her capabilities would be grand. What is missing and was the most fun for me at least was all the freaking traps, puzzles and places you could go that really had nothing to do with the puzzles that got you to the next level. You weren't in any hurry to get to the end. The journey was what mattered.
    Combat with people was fairly big in TR2, and TR3; but as far as design within TR goes, it is very much a "take it or leave it" thing. If they do take it, however, it's got to be damn good because there are so many action games out there that handle human v human combat; and the human v. human combat within TR is always going to be ranked alongside them; so it would need to be very good to impress. Non-human enemies were a lot more fun in TR:U; and they allow for diverse, or interesting, enemies. Leaving human v. human out in TR wouldn't necessarily be a horrible thing.

    For the inclusion of new features; I would heavily advise that the features were not overused, or forced within gameplay. Adventure/moving around-style things perhaps can be used a lot; but forcing stealth in a game series (and upon fans) in a series/fangroup that have not needed to use stealth before (and not had a reputation for stealth) is just a bad idea. Using it too little is pointless as well.

    Re-introducing features of the old series must be taken with care as well; if introduction of new features is for the mainstream, with possible failure upon the dedicated fangroup; then old features are for the fangroup, with 'possible failure' for everyone.

  17. #17
    As long as Buzz Monkey is fired, I will be happy. Cancelling Lara? Ha! I scoff at you!!! CD wouldn't dare. Otherwise, they would have a nice heaping peice of hot and angry Cheese. Hehehehe!!!!!! I'm Baaa-ack!!!!( Grins evily)
    "Cheese is nice. Practically perfect in every way." And no, I DIDN'T STEAL THAT FROM MARY POPPINS!

  18. #18
    I think most of the worry around "cancelling Tomb Raider" is really worry about the financial viability of Eidos and its parent company, SCI. Their earnings loss was larger than their gross revenue in their last published statement.

    http://miranda.hemscott.com/ir/seg/p...ounts_2008.pdf

    I cannot figure out their cash position. Lack of cash is what causes companies to go bankrupt. They seemed to bleed cash like a stuck pig but somehow most of their bleeding is how they capitalize their development (which I don't understand). They raised more capital so the net effect is they have 25M in cash left (down only 5M from FY07).

    Honestly, this explains the shortness of Underworld. It *had* to ship for this Holiday season. It looks like the entire fate of the company depended on it.

    Tomb Raider is a top-20 franchise and too valuable a franchise to be cancelled. If Eidos cannot continue then I'm sure Electronic Arts or Ubisoft will pick it up.

    As for the gameplay future, there seems to be 2 camps.

    Camp 1 = keep it a "platform" game. Camp 2 = expand in new directions. I am in Camp 2.

    Here is my review...
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpos...7&postcount=14

    Here are my gameplay suggestions in the "RPG Elements" thread...
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpos...9&postcount=67
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpos...8&postcount=72

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by 9er_Fan View Post
    As for the gameplay future, there seems to be 2 camps.

    Camp 1 = keep it a "platform" game. Camp 2 = expand in new directions. I am in Camp 2.
    Hmm. By the way this is put, it sounds like Camp 2 is along the lines of a completely new game, rather than an extension of TR into new areas. I do not think it would be a good idea for TR to completely re-vamp and make itself in an area it has never been before; I would think it is a good idea, though, for TR to include/explore new areas/features that have not been included in the past, as long as they work with what features make TR what it is.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    Hmm. By the way this is put, it sounds like Camp 2 is along the lines of a completely new game, rather than an extension of TR into new areas. I do not think it would be a good idea for TR to completely re-vamp and make itself in an area it has never been before; I would think it is a good idea, though, for TR to include/explore new areas/features that have not been included in the past, as long as they work with what features make TR what it is.
    Exactly what I was trying to get at. They need a new IP (game) for those in the second camp. Totally new character ,no baggage, totally new play style. Probably be a lot of fun to play! But don't turn TR into the new game.
    As much as I would hate to see TR die as a franchise, I'd rather have it die than be so transformed it not even TR anymore. There is so much growth potential in TR and it can be done without destroying what defines TR. It's kind of like listening to new comers telling us how they do things back home. Well go back home!

    BTW there has only been actually one CD TR game so far, made up of three episodes . Remember it takes L A and U all together to give us the length of one of the original Core games

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GoLarago View Post
    Exactly what I was trying to get at. They need a new IP (game) for those in the second camp. Totally new character ,no baggage, totally new play style. Probably be a lot of fun to play! But don't turn TR into the new game.
    As much as I would hate to see TR die as a franchise, I'd rather have it die than be so transformed it not even TR anymore. There is so much growth potential in TR and it can be done without destroying what defines TR. It's kind of like listening to new comers telling us how they do things back home. Well go back home!

    BTW there has only been actually one CD TR game so far, made up of three episodes . Remember it takes L A and U all together to give us the length of one of the original Core games
    I do not see any point in "camp 2" (as it is laid out here), to be honest, or no reason to discuss it within the context of "next TR game" discussion.
    The reason I think so, is, that this "new IP" is going to have to please a fanbase; there is going to have to be something it does special, and does correctly. TR already has a set of criteria in place that make it a great game, and it is pretty unique in what people like about it. Any future game for this fanbase would have to satisfy the key criteria of what makes the game a good game, anything additional just needs to be able to work with it, and not ruin gameplay.

    I do not see what point of view you hold. You say you are in camp 2, with

    "They need a new IP (game) for those in the second camp. Totally new character ,no baggage, totally new play style. Probably be a lot of fun to play! But don't turn TR into the new game.
    As much as I would hate to see TR die as a franchise, I'd rather have it die than be so transformed it not even TR anymore."

    and then you seem to flip sides, and say

    "There is so much growth potential in TR and it can be done without destroying what defines TR."

    If they start with new IP, "new character, no baggage, new play style" then they must drop anything from the past, and just start making a "good game" ignorant of the past. I do not see how that makes sense if it's being made for a fanbase which already has an idea of what they do like and don't like. (Well, overall at least).

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    I do not see any point in "camp 2" (as it is laid out here), to be honest, or no reason to discuss it within the context of "next TR game" discussion.
    The reason I think so, is, that this "new IP" is going to have to please a fanbase; there is going to have to be something it does special, and does correctly. TR already has a set of criteria in place that make it a great game, and it is pretty unique in what people like about it. Any future game for this fanbase would have to satisfy the key criteria of what makes the game a good game, anything additional just needs to be able to work with it, and not ruin gameplay.

    I do not see what point of view you hold. You say you are in camp 2, with

    "They need a new IP (game) for those in the second camp. Totally new character ,no baggage, totally new play style. Probably be a lot of fun to play! But don't turn TR into the new game.
    As much as I would hate to see TR die as a franchise, I'd rather have it die than be so transformed it not even TR anymore."

    and then you seem to flip sides, and say

    "There is so much growth potential in TR and it can be done without destroying what defines TR."

    If they start with new IP, "new character, no baggage, new play style" then they must drop anything from the past, and just start making a "good game" ignorant of the past. I do not see how that makes sense if it's being made for a fanbase which already has an idea of what they do like and don't like. (Well, overall at least).
    No I'm not in camp 2. I guess I'm not explaining my self right.
    I was saying that IF they change it too much they might as well do away with TR all together and come out with a new franchise to replace it.

    For example I love the Need For Speed games especially Underground 1 and Most Wanted. When Pro-street came out it wasn't a NFS game. I played the heck out of it had a good time with it, but it wasn't a NFS game as far as I was concerned . If they had called it anything else it would have done great. Unfortunately for them NFS is about the illegal street racing not organized legal racing. The fan base knew it and weren't happy

    Yes, some of the evil Core players are stuck in the past. Some of us Core players though want new TR games but only if what is done does not destroy the basic concept of the game. I mean TR has "tradionally" been heavy into platforming and discovery as I said before. Yes there was combat and for its time it was ok.

    Its now 10 years later and we have lots of new capabilities. Using the new capabilities doesn't mean throwing out what it means to be a TR game in the first place.

    Though I'm not a fan of combat in TR. Except when it makes sence and they attack her first. We had combat in the caveman days so that's apart of TR. I'd personally love to see the combat we have brought into the 21 century. Blind fire, cover system,etc. I mean if she is going to slaughter people let her do it right. With all the platforming TR had adding some parcor style moves would be new and fit her well. Vehicles that control well and gobs of fun to drive. Though I hated the voice chatter in L and A it was well handled in U. It could have allowed for equipment drops that she didn't have access to in the old days. Changes like these add new abilities without changing the basics

    I know I'm still probably not being clear but there is a lot of room for updating TR without morphing her to the point of non-recognition.
    What a good portion of the new fans unhappy with TR seem to hate most of all seems to be what it means to be a TR game.For them they won't be happy until TR matches their desires and its purged of all things TR.. For those persons I think it might be better if they had a game of their own game more in line with their desires. That was the reason I suggested a new IP for them.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    On the issue of the introduction of new game features, the conservative view should be considered carefully; one example of "new and cool" ruining a series is the Commandos series. It's a stealth, real-time tactics game. The latest game, Commandos: Strike Force moved away from this, and became an action-oriented FPS, that ''blended in" with the crowd, and instead of being something special, a game of the commandos series, it was 'ordinary' at best, horrible at worst.
    A very reasonable argument, but just because it happened to Commandos doesn't mean the same thing will happen to Tomb Raider. In fact, hasn't Crystal D already proved to be capable to handle such a change when they made Legend? It was a huge succes to the big crowd. If they had continued this the Nautghy Dog boys would be eating their hats.
    I think Pyro Studios (developers of Commandos) was right when they decided that it was time for change, but they changed it in the wrong way. I believe if they had turned it into a Hitman-style game -third-person, either stealth or action is up to the player- it would have been a giant succes.
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    The main issue with "Plan B" is that if it differs from what the game was originally, there is little point in having it different. It's likely to copy the things other games do well, but undoubtably any feature along these lines would be old and substandard in comparision. If future TR games hold little (or none) of what makes them TR games, then there is no point in calling it TR, or making the game.
    That doesn't seem to bother the Far Cry 2 boys, nor their audience.... This is exactly what I mean with being conservative: they consider relatively little adjustments to be giant changes. How many times people here are whining over that she has a ponytail instead of a braid, or that she has a personality now, or a different outfit, whats next? Its not a Tomb Raider if her shoeties are green instead of brown? You think the Uncharted boys are concerning themselves with that sort of things? (Maybe they will in ten years, but surely not for now)

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    A very reasonable argument, but just because it happened to Commandos doesn't mean the same thing will happen to Tomb Raider. In fact, hasn't Crystal D already proved to be capable to handle such a change when they made Legend? It was a huge succes to the big crowd. If they had continued this the Nautghy Dog boys would be eating their hats.
    I think Pyro Studios (developers of Commandos) was right when they decided that it was time for change, but they changed it in the wrong way. I believe if they had turned it into a Hitman-style game -third-person, either stealth or action is up to the player- it would have been a giant succes.
    There was a change from AoD->TR:L, but that is a change in developers. It seems to be more the case of 'accidental' change rather than deliberately moving towards that style of play. It was CD's best crack at the TR nut at the time; and they have become better at reaching "classic" TR since then. (TR:A and TR:U are improvements). There were, and still are, people who did/do not think that TR:L was true TR.
    If they had pumped more action into it, while neglecting what made TR great, they would have lost an entire fanbase. (Well, a few would have stayed; but because this is hypothetical, it can't be said whether that would be for TR, or because the action-packed game was a good enough game irrelavent of TR).
    TR needs fresh and new, not necessarily now, but it will need it eventually. (Arguably now, though). What I am saying is this change needs to be kept within limits; TR should not be transformed into another game, it should keep what is good about it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    That doesn't seem to bother the Far Cry 2 boys, nor their audience.... This is exactly what I mean with being conservative: they consider relatively little adjustments to be giant changes. How many times people here are whining over that she has a ponytail instead of a braid, or that she has a personality now, or a different outfit, whats next? Its not a Tomb Raider if her shoeties are green instead of brown? You think the Uncharted boys are concerning themselves with that sort of things? (Maybe they will in ten years, but surely not for now)
    I think a lot of the fans of the original Far Cry moved on to Crysis; which can be seen to be the spiritual successor to Far Cry. (They both share similar enough elements, developed by the same company).
    And that's one of the things that needs to be considered; TR is not a young franchise. TR is a game series that has had a build up of fans, and a very specific fangroup that are fans because of what the game is, because of the elements of the game.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    There was a change from AoD->TR:L, but that is a change in developers. It seems to be more the case of 'accidental' change rather than deliberately moving towards that style of play. It was CD's best crack at the TR nut at the time; and they have become better at reaching "classic" TR since then. (TR:A and TR:U are improvements). There were, and still are, people who did/do not think that TR:L was true TR.
    And in the meantime, I'm seeing that many people from outside the fanbase are saying that Legend was better in many aspects -as do I- And if the succes of Legend was accidental, then why is the failure of Commandos Strike Force not?

    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    If they had pumped more action into it, while neglecting what made TR great, they would have lost an entire fanbase. (Well, a few would have stayed; but because this is hypothetical, it can't be said whether that would be for TR, or because the action-packed game was a good enough game irrelavent of TR).
    TR needs fresh and new, not necessarily now, but it will need it eventually. (Arguably now, though). What I am saying is this change needs to be kept within limits;
    But how far? Oldskool fans want the limits to be tight, the mainstream crowd wants them to be..... -sorry, whats the opposite of tight limits?-
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    TR should not be transformed into another game, it should keep what is good about it now.
    Of course: I totaly agree on that: but I'm saying the things its not good at should be changed, and I strongly believe that would have already been done had the series been three years old instead of twelve.
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    I think a lot of the fans of the original Far Cry moved on to Crysis; which can be seen to be the spiritual successor to Far Cry. (They both share similar enough elements, developed by the same company).
    And that's one of the things that needs to be considered; TR is not a young franchise. TR is a game series that has had a build up of fans, and a very specific fangroup that are fans because of what the game is, because of the elements of the game.
    But are those fans realizing that they are busy ripping the game in two? It has to be devided between them and the mainstream crowd, and I believe the result is mediocre to both groups. Had they been less conservative and less driven by nostalgia over ten year old games the developers could focus and produce a better game.

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