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Thread: RPG Elements for the next TR game?

  1. #1

    RPG Elements for the next TR game?

    This seems to have gained some discussion around these boards at the moment, so I thought I would take the time to create a thread to ask for opinions on the matter.

    What are your thoughts on the inclusion of RPG elements into TR9, or possibly future Tomb Raider games?

    Remember, keep an open mind to this idea whether you are for it, or against it

    (Not everyone will necessarily share your point of view on this subject)

    Some things to consider:
    Maintaining features of what Tomb Raider is now, the effects that RPG-Elements would have on:
    • Storyline
    • Tomb Raiding and Exploration gameplay
    • Moving around an environment
    • Combat
    • Enemies
    • Traps, and dodging traps
    • Vehicles
    • Puzzles

    and how would the 'original spirit' of Tomb Raiding, the things we like from the TR series, be preserved in the RPG gameplay so that fans of the series would still play a RPG-Tomb Raider.

    The Inclusion of RPG Elements into Tomb Raider
    How would features of RPGs be included into the Tomb Raider gameplay:
    • Interaction with other characters
    • Inventory system
    • Trading of Items
    • Levelling up/upgrading of the character
    • Towns/Hubs


    Also consider sharing:
    • What RPGs you have played
    • What you liked about these RPGs
    • What elements from these RPGs you liked, and would like to see in Tomb Raider


    EDIT (thanks LCR):
    p.s. For those who don't know what RPG stands for: Role Playing Game
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia:Role Playing Game
    An electronic role-playing game is a broad genre of video games. These games are originally derived from traditional role-playing games, especially Dungeons & Dragons, and use both the settings and game mechanics found in such games.
    Typically, gameplay centers around one or more avatars, with quantized characteristics that evolve over the course of the game, and take the place of the gamer's own skill in determining the outcome of the actions taken by the player. These attributes are traditionally displayed to the player on a status screen as a numeric value, instead of a simpler abstract graphical representation, such as the bars and meters often favored by video games in general. Another common element in RPGs is a well-developed fictional setting.
    The stories featured usually involve a group of characters (a party) who have joined forces in order to accomplish a mission or "quest". Along the way, the adventurers must face a great number of challenges and enemies. These are usually monsters inspired by fantasy fiction, and, to a lesser extent, science fiction and classical mythology.
    Gameplay elements strongly associated with this genre, such as statistical character development, have been widely adapted to other video game genres. For example, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, an action game, uses resource statistics (abbreviated as "stats") to define a wide range of attributes including stamina, weapon proficiency, driving, lung capacity, and muscle tone, and uses numerous cutscenes and quests to advance the story. Warcraft III, a real-time strategy game, features heroes that can complete quests, obtain new equipment, and learn new abilities as they advance in level.

  2. #2
    (RPGs I've played Fable 1-2, Elderscrolls Morrowind-Oblivion, and Fallout 3.)

    I enjoy RPG games quite a bit and would love to see one of the modernday-globe trotting-treasure hunting persona. That said I personally would want it seperate from TR. When playing Lara I would like to take the backseat and let the writers make the choices, because they have a better mindset for her than I probably would. However there are some rpg elements that I think would help the TR gameplay. Like:
    -larger and not as linear exploration zones
    -some sort of weapon and accessory customization via credit shop, perhaps through some kind of choosable intermission stage i.e. the Croft Mansion.

    All in all I like TR the way it is though somethings would be nice and somethings would be better, I'm fairly easy to please.
    Don't you think after several millenia, any booby traps would be... OUCH!!!

  3. #3
    I cross my heart and pray to cheebus, please... NO RPG'S PLEASE.

    That's what Warcraft is for!
    PLEASE, NO RPG'S.

    I can not stress that enough.

    Lara, needs to be told what to do by CD and no-one else.

    Unless of course if one of the options for RPG was to do the peanut butter jelly dance...
    Does my beard tempt you?

  4. #4
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    TOMB RAIDER RPG?!
    OH PLEASE GOD NOOOOOOOO

    "Lara Croft is now lvl 26"
    omfg...AND THEY'LL MAKE YOU SELL HER PISTOLS?!
    I spiked the tea.

  5. #5
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    I'm not too fond of RPG elements in TR either, even though one of my favorite game genres are RPG's, just doesnt fit with TR

    there are interesting concepts like you mentioned RG, but I just don't feel it would work or further TR game play by adding any RPG elements.

    I've played many RPGs more than I can count but theres really nothing about those that I liked that I would like to see in a Tomb Raider game. The whole interracting with other characters might work but i feel it would get tedious if it was implemented where you had to keep going and talking to someone to get certain information.

    Don't think the trading of items or weapons would work well either.

    leveling up your character in Tomb Raider would be very boring and also tedious, don't want to have to level Lara up to progress or raise stats. Towns might be an interesting idea, having Lara stay in a nearby town wherever it is shes going to be raiding next, but even so, it would have to implement the interracting with characters again and have to go around to each person to find out information like every other RPG, which wouldnt be fun for TR.

    RPG and TR just don't fit together at all

    RPGs ive played:

    Secret Of Mana,Final Fantasy(whole series), Every Tales game,Enchanted Arms,Fall Out 3,Infinite Undiscovery,Fable 2,Eternal Sonata,Last Remnant,Chrono Cross,Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2,breath of fire series,Suikoden,Grandia series,Xenogears,super mario rpg,star ocean,legend of dragoon,chrono trigger,Valkyrie Profile,dragon warrior,skies of arcadia,blue dragon,elder scrolls series,mass effect,lost odyssey, etc etc

    i could go on and on lol

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    This seems to have gained some discussion around these boards at the moment, so I thought I would take the time to create a thread to ask for opinions on the matter.

    What are your thoughts on the inclusion of RPG elements into TR9, or possibly future Tomb Raider games?

    Remember, keep an open mind to this idea whether you are for it, or against it

    (Not everyone will necessarily share your point of view on this subject)

    Some things to consider:
    Maintaining features of what Tomb Raider is now, the effects that RPG-Elements would have on:
    • Storyline
    • Tomb Raiding and Exploration gameplay
    • Moving around an environment
    • Combat
    • Enemies
    • Traps, and dodging traps
    • Vehicles
    • Puzzles

    and how would the 'original spirit' of Tomb Raiding, the things we like from the TR series, be preserved in the RPG gameplay so that fans of the series would still play a RPG-Tomb Raider.

    The Inclusion of RPG Elements into Tomb Raider
    How would features of RPGs be included into the Tomb Raider gameplay:
    • Interaction with other characters
    • Inventory system
    • Trading of Items
    • Levelling up/upgrading of the character
    • Towns/Hubs


    Also consider sharing:
    • What RPGs you have played
    • What you liked about these RPGs
    • What elements from these RPGs you liked, and would like to see in Tomb Raider
    That's an awesome thread u got there Ricco
    well about TR being an RPG game that's NO WAY but as for the inclusion of RPG elements, i say : "Why Not ?!" well about the RPG elements i like to see in TR9 :

    01. Interacting with other characters (with an effective speech on the gameplay n story)
    02. Trading items like weapons or certain mythical items.
    03. larger towns (either ancient or modern cities) to explore and a longer gameplay
    04. paying a much harder work on the cutscenes (quantitatively and qualitatively)
    05. upgrading the character will be awesome but the steps of upgrade SHOULD be a necessary part that a player has to go through to precede to the next level, unlike other RPG games that u may reach the ending and ur still LV.1

    RPG games i played and love :
    01. Final Fantasy (Whole series)
    02. Assassin's Creed (Can be considered RPG)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by HeavenlyRaider. View Post
    That's what Warcraft is for!
    PLEASE, NO RPG'S.
    RPGs needn't be fantasy games like WoW. Deus Ex is a decent RPG game (published by Eidos), and it manages to have action/FPShooter elements in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe View Post
    TOMB RAIDER RPG?!
    OH PLEASE GOD NOOOOOOOO

    "Lara Croft is now lvl 26"
    omfg...AND THEY'LL MAKE YOU SELL HER PISTOLS?!
    Why not keep your mind open, or discuss some of the reasons why you would not like to see TR become an RPG?

    (And I doubt selling pistols would be a forced mechanic of the game, anyway).

    EDIT:
    P.S. I doubt TR9 will have RPG elements in it. This thread is for discussion of how RPG elements might or might not work within future TR games.

  8. #8
    it does not work

    rpgs are final fantasy and pokemon
    not lara croft tomb raider

    its and adventure game, explore jump around stuff like that

    no laras running around in circles with zip and amanda slowly folowing behind her, fighting enemy after enemy trying to level up everyone so that they can proceed to the the next area where there are nast giant dinosurs that need you to be level 30 and have the amulet of zorak and the sword of belthazar

    no no no
    plz never ever ever

  9. #9
    I can certainly see elements of more action oriented RPGs like Oblivion or Zelda working in Tomb Raider. Upgradeable equipment and a large, relatively open world (with Lara's bike to speed up travel) could work very well if it's done right.

    I think all the gameplay mechanics should remain realtime and distinctly non-RPG though. There could be some interactive dialogue, but I would keep the cinematics non-interactive.

    I wouldn't want things to be stat-based or involve leveling up either. Lara is always at her peak (lvl. 99 or whatever). So anything enhancing her abilities/durability would be equipment based and rely on simple logic. For example, losing health if you try to wear a skimpy wetsuit in the snow or a winter coat in a sweltering jungle. Or a military outfit with body protection and it's own health bar.
    LittleBigPlanet: Croft Manor Beneath the Ashes
    PSN ID: DuskRaider

  10. #10
    Tomb Raider: Underworld *sortof* has 'leveling up' with the Relics; when you find a relic it increases how much health you can have.
    Perhaps not put in RPG-esque features that are so unrelated to gameplay, but those that would enhance the action game for some, and not ruin it for others.

  11. #11
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    if by "interaction with other characters" you mean as in how you interacted with other people in Angel of Darkness, please, just, no...

  12. #12
    Angel of Darkness did have some RPG features in it, it also had conversations with characters. I would hardly thing to say it wouldn't work in TR because it didn't work in AoD. There're a lot of things that AoD had that didn't work, such as movement, that work in Tomb Raider games today.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    Angel of Darkness did have some RPG features in it, it also had conversations with characters. I would hardly thing to say it wouldn't work in TR because it didn't work in AoD. There're a lot of things that AoD had that didn't work, such as movement, that work in Tomb Raider games today.
    If they improved it I definitely wouldn't mind.

  14. #14
    RPG elements with Tomb Raider game Oh GOD please no......................... Although I like RPG games and have played RPG games like Fallout 3 , Fable 2, Mass Effect e.t.c but Tomb Raider would not match with RPG type , the Tomb Raiderish feeling would be gone , as Lara is enthusiastic and self confident , her character would not match with an RPG gaming so, Tomb Raider game will best suite as single player and nothing else

  15. #15
    Would you care to explain your thoughts futher?

  16. #16
    I think Cystal have the right formula in Underworld. It's taken a long time to get back to real Raiding and I really don't want them to change the formula now that they've cracked it.

    If Angel of Darkness type gameplay makes a return, I'll quit Tomb Raider permanently.


  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeMaciver View Post
    I think Cystal have the right formula in Underworld. It's taken a long time to get back to real Raiding and I really don't want them to change the formula now that they've cracked it.

    If Angel of Darkness type gameplay makes a return, I'll quit Tomb Raider permanently.

    I totally agree, even though I loved Angel of Darkness, I'm one among the supposedly few, I did not like the whole "stealthy museum dodging laser" elements of the gameplay. But when it comes to RPG elements inside a Tomb Raider game, like trotting all over the globe not necessarily in a defined order, well . . . hasn't that already been done? Tomb Raider III anybody. Anyone whose played it can remember that you chose where you wanted to go. Now I know it's not really the same, but anyone who loves Tomb Raider III would love the whole RPG thing! Am I right?

    Anyway, my opinion is this: I like what they've done with Underworld, the only thing about it is it's to short! They need to make the next game much longer, and do not leave us at a cliffhanger, last time that happened (see Tomb Raider: Legend) we had to wait 31 months (for some 32, and even for some PS2 players 33) months to figure out what happens. Keep the Underworld formula but multiply the length of the game by about 3 and I'll be the happiest Raider you've ever seen!

  18. #18

    Thumbs Down Nothing personal R(P)G :P...............

    No thanks. I like it just the way it is right now.

    I want full action from the start of the game, and Lara to be able to do all her stuff at full capacity from the beginning. So things like "My legs feel stronger now" are in my honest opinion. A longer health bar as a reward for finding treasures is okay, like it is in TRU.

    I also hated the interaction with other characters in AOD. Lara should be raiding alone and doesn't need help from anybody. I like the feeling of complete isolation.

    Good idea though, but in my opinion it doesn't work.


    p.s. For those who don't know what RPG stands for: Role Playing Game


    Wikipedia
    An electronic role-playing game is a broad genre of video games. These games are originally derived from traditional role-playing games, especially Dungeons & Dragons, and use both the settings and game mechanics found in such games.
    Typically, gameplay centers around one or more avatars, with quantized characteristics that evolve over the course of the game, and take the place of the gamer's own skill in determining the outcome of the actions taken by the player. These attributes are traditionally displayed to the player on a status screen as a numeric value, instead of a simpler abstract graphical representation, such as the bars and meters often favored by video games in general. Another common element in RPGs is a well-developed fictional setting.
    The stories featured usually involve a group of characters (a party) who have joined forces in order to accomplish a mission or "quest". Along the way, the adventurers must face a great number of challenges and enemies. These are usually monsters inspired by fantasy fiction, and, to a lesser extent, science fiction and classical mythology.
    Gameplay elements strongly associated with this genre, such as statistical character development, have been widely adapted to other video game genres. For example, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, an action game, uses resource statistics (abbreviated as "stats") to define a wide range of attributes including stamina, weapon proficiency, driving, lung capacity, and muscle tone, and uses numerous cutscenes and quests to advance the story. Warcraft III, a real-time strategy game, features heroes that can complete quests, obtain new equipment, and learn new abilities as they advance in level.
    signature image

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by tombraiderlover02 View Post
    but anyone who loves Tomb Raider III would love the whole RPG thing! Am I right?
    Wrong.

    Tomb Raider 3 is 1 of my favorite simply bcoz its my 1st TR.
    But it doesn't make me love d implementation of RPG concept in future TR games.

    D last time dey put RPG elements in TR, dey totally robbed away da Tomb Raiding essence. I hafta admit I do enjoy the conversation thang and selling stuffs (eventhough it was not properly executed) but it just doesn't feel like Tomb Raider anymore. It's like a total different game ... fun and enjoyable ... but not Tomb Raider.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeMaciver View Post
    I think Cystal have the right formula in Underworld. It's taken a long time to get back to real Raiding and I really don't want them to change the formula now that they've cracked it.

    If Angel of Darkness type gameplay makes a return, I'll quit Tomb Raider permanently.
    I don't think CD will actually ever put this stuff in the game, and I doubt it would be in TR9 even if it was discovered to be a brilliant idea. CD know how to make a good TR game; they made TR:U well, and will improve upon that in making TR9.
    This is why I think discussion of RPG elements shouldn't be dismissed immediately; AoD had RPG-stuff in it, and AoD did not handle gameplay properly. I would understand, then, how some would not like to see RPG elements in future TR games because of it. There were features of AoD, though, such as combat, moving around and jumping, melee, etc. that were not fun in AoD, but are fun in current TR games. That's why I think the RPG elements should be given more of a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love2Raid View Post
    No thanks. I like it just the way it is right now.

    I want full action from the start of the game, and Lara to be able to do all her stuff at full capacity from the beginning. So things like "My legs feel stronger now" are in my honest opinion. A longer health bar as a reward for finding treasures is okay, like it is in TRU.

    I also hated the interaction with other characters in AOD. Lara should be raiding alone and doesn't need help from anybody. I like the feeling of complete isolation.

    Good idea though, but in my opinion it doesn't work.
    That's the thing; it can't stay "the way it is right now"; it has to take the good bits, improve on it and throw new things in. TR1-5 were all very similar, and so with AoD Core felt the need to improve and change to keep TR alive; it was half-baked change and so didn't work well. But do you see what I am saying with TR needing change? People get tired of the same, unchanged game coming out each year.
    I am not saying they need to change the genre, or put in bad aspects of gameplay, but they need to change/refine to make the game fresh and better.

    In AoD the "my legs feel stronger now"/physical improvement characteristic was used as a puzzle mechanic to progress through levels, in that it was forced. I could see physical improvement style things working if it wasn't forced upon the player, such as: The player gets full abilities from the start, and so unimproved they can get from beginning to end un-upgraded, but they can increase speed, etc. so that they can move faster across ledges than they would unupgraded. That way, it's not hindering gameplay by forcing the player to upgrade, but it allows for upgrading, and improvement in the character. Possibly an alternate way to upgrade would be upgrading accuracy, so that although targets are hit regardless of upgrading, targets are hit more with upgraded character.
    It needn't be the forced puzzle mechanic it was in AoD.

    Interaction with other characters? Hmm, perhaps isolation works in tombs, although it would be nice to have more support for this in the more urban areas; such as approaching a level from multiple ways. For example, in a level like Mexico, depending on how the conversation with a player went, the player is either start the level close-in with a bike, as normal, or they start further back, in a jeep, and must steer across volatile terrain to get to the Mexico area. I dunno, it could work if done well.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Akam View Post
    Wrong.

    Tomb Raider 3 is 1 of my favorite simply bcoz its my 1st TR.
    But it doesn't make me love d implementation of RPG concept in future TR games.

    D last time dey put RPG elements in TR, dey totally robbed away da Tomb Raiding essence. I hafta admit I do enjoy the conversation thang and selling stuffs (eventhough it was not properly executed) but it just doesn't feel like Tomb Raider anymore. It's like a total different game ... fun and enjoyable ... but not Tomb Raider.
    Well, looking at part of the definition of RPG:
    Typically, gameplay centers around one or more avatars, with quantized characteristics that evolve over the course of the game,
    In Tomb Raider: Underworld, the player can increase the health-capacity by finding/picking up Relics. This would be a characteristic that improves over the course of the game, would it not?
    TRIII's "choose where you go" is RPG-ish in that it determines what weapons you can keep in the game. (a lot of people know to go to Nevada first).
    TRII/TRIII also had a bit of the RPG-style gameplay with the Monks in Barkhang, or the Marines in the South Pacific. It was the player's choice for them to be allies, or for them to be enemies.
    TR4/5 has weapon customisation where you can add laser sights to weapons, or choose the ammo type for the weapon to increase the weapon's strength.
    It wouldn't necessarily have to be full-blown RPG style, but there are elements of the RPG genre that could have positive effects on the future of Tomb Raider.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    That's the thing; it can't stay "the way it is right now"; it has to take the good bits, improve on it and throw new things in. TR1-5 were all very similar, and so with AoD Core felt the need to improve and change to keep TR alive; it was half-baked change and so didn't work well. But do you see what I am saying with TR needing change? People get tired of the same, unchanged game coming out each year.
    I am not saying they need to change the genre, or put in bad aspects of gameplay, but they need to change/refine to make the game fresh and better.
    Well, I agree with you that every game should be better than the previous one. Like better graphics, more fluid movements, better enemy A.I., better story, new traps etc etc. I do not think it is necessary to change it into a whole new game. Give me a new storyline, new and bigger levels and puzzles and traps, and I will be perfectly happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    In AoD the "my legs feel stronger now"/physical improvement characteristic was used as a puzzle mechanic to progress through levels, in that it was forced. I could see physical improvement style things working if it wasn't forced upon the player, such as: The player gets full abilities from the start, and so unimproved they can get from beginning to end un-upgraded, but they can increase speed, etc. so that they can move faster across ledges than they would unupgraded. That way, it's not hindering gameplay by forcing the player to upgrade, but it allows for upgrading, and improvement in the character. Possibly an alternate way to upgrade would be upgrading accuracy, so that although targets are hit regardless of upgrading, targets are hit more with upgraded character.
    It needn't be the forced puzzle mechanic it was in AoD.
    There was something like it in Legend (better Accuracy), but to be honest, I couldn't really tell the difference...........
    Anyway, if they did something like that, it would mean the game starts easy and gets harder every level. Or another possibility, a level starts easy and gets harder towards the end (of the level). Otherwise, upgrading would be useless.
    signature image

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Love2Raid View Post
    Well, I agree with you that every game should be better than the previous one. Like better graphics, more fluid movements, better enemy A.I., better story, new traps etc etc. I do not think it is necessary to change it into a whole new game. Give me a new storyline, new and bigger levels and puzzles and traps, and I will be perfectly happy.

    There was something like it in Legend (better Accuracy), but to be honest, I couldn't really tell the difference...........
    Anyway, if they did something like that, it would mean the game starts easy and gets harder every level. Or another possibility, a level starts easy and gets harder towards the end (of the level). Otherwise, upgrading would be useless.
    I forgot about the pistols of Legend. Yes, they are upgraded weapons, with the treasures. It would have been nice to see something like that in Underworld, I think.

    Well, the game needs to be adaptable so as to still be popular and good among the fanbase, and appealing to the wider game market at the same time. Keeping it as roughly the same game each time does please the core-fan group, but gets tired for the wider gaming audience. TR1-6 were all following the exact same formula, and while this pleased the fans of the game, it grew dull for everyone else. TR2 was the game with the highest sales. RPG might not necessarily be the way to go, though if the general gaming market transfers from 'shooter' to 'RPG shooter' the bet is that TR will follow. Perhaps, for now, combat is the best way to expand TR on this front, while giving the exploration and puzzles to the 'main' fans.

    And that's generally how the difficulty curve goes; things get harder as the game progresses (as the player becomes better at the game).

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    Perhaps, for now, combat is the best way to expand TR on this front, while giving the exploration and puzzles to the 'main' fans.
    It could attract more gamers, but personally I don't want more combat in the game. If I want to shoot, I will play other games which are more focused on (and better at) combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    And that's generally how the difficulty curve goes; things get harder as the game progresses (as the player becomes better at the game).
    Lol, yeah you are right of course. It didn't feel that way in Legend nor Underworld (Anniversary as an exception) though. I guess I just got better at it as the game progressed.
    signature image

  24. #24
    There's no way I'd play it if it adopted some RPG elements.

    I'm not too fond of RPGs, adding that would just make it worse for me.

    I say, CD, stick to whatever plan or trail you guys are on. As far as I'm concerned, you're doing a good job and I enjoy where TR is heading.

  25. #25
    I think RPG elements have already been included in non-AoD TR games:
    • TRII/TRIII also had a bit of the RPG-style gameplay with the Monks in Barkhang, or the Marines in the South Pacific. It was the player's choice for them to be allies, or for them to be enemies.
    • TRIII's "choose where you go" is RPG-ish in that it determines what weapons you can keep in the game. (a lot of people know to go to Nevada first).
    • TR4/5 has weapon customisation where you can add laser sights to weapons, or choose the ammo type for the weapon to increase the weapon's strength.
    • In Tomb Raider: Legend, the player can get more advanced pistols by finding bronze/silver relics.
    • In Tomb Raider: Underworld, the player can increase the health-capacity by finding/picking up Relics.


    I think it is at least worth considering and discussing the benefits of RPG-elements, what they could do to improve the game, before dismissing them.

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