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Thread: RPG Elements for the next TR game?

  1. #26
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    When I read the title of you post I though rocket propelled grenades
    I wouldn't be too in to the RPG think in TR. I wouldn't mind a role playing game set in "TR" land but I wouldn't want to muck up the series itself.
    I do like the optional stuff like the monks, and more "free roam" stuff with things, people and animals/=monsters to interact with might be neat.
    But RPG with Lara? Mess with her personality by letting the player choose her gender or something like that? Then she's not Lara. Take her out and give the player a creatable character and it's not TR anymore.
    But, maybe I should restate all that RG? Most of what you have on your list is ok but to me they're not necessarily role playing things. At least not how I see it. As long as Lara stays Lara and can't be modified or changed, and so long as your interactions are confined to the story line and Lara's personality, that would be fine by me

    Have any of you played Uncharted? That game, although HEAVILY based on TR stuff, had a number of really nice touches that could be incorporated into TR as far as storyline and movement throughout the game.

    As a side note, when you mentioned the monks in TR2, I realized, DAMN I MISS MARCO BARTOLI!!!!
    ( I hope they redo TR2 with current graphics!!!)
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  2. #27
    As stated, many complained about AOD, although I'm not sure how much if this was to do with the conversations or the powerups that occurred through the game, or the new controls which are essentially the same for the CD games. The controls were OK, and only an issue when Lara was going up stair ways and would turn more than you wanted. I like AOD in spite of this, but having the coversations with options and powerups weren't needed.

    The conversations seemed to slow the pace of the game down, and being Tomb Raider, the conversations and actions don't change the outcome of the game, such as it did for choosing light side or dark side in SWKOTOR (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic) series, and the conversations in SWKOTOR series ate up a lot of time.

  3. #28
    [QUOTE=BLOWHARD;916540]
    But RPG with Lara? Mess with her personality by letting the player choose her gender or something like that? Then she's not Lara. Take her out and give the player a creatable character and it's not TR anymore.
    B/QUOTE]

    The RPG elements we are talking about doesn't include customization of Lara Croft, the TOMB RAIDER herself. It simply involves the implementation of Role-Playing Game ideas into Tomb Raider game, like upgrades, conversation, buying-selling thing, choosing where to go. There is no character modification involve. Its not a simulation-style game.

    And I do agree on the remake of TR 2. AWESOME!!!
    A refrigerator- when you open the door, the light goes on, but when you close the door, the light goes off... or does it?

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by BLOWHARD View Post
    ....Most of what you have on your list is ok but to me they're not necessarily role playing things. At least not how I see it....
    True. They were examples, though, of possible variety in gameplay, optional interactions with characters, and things that could be upgraded in the game. (All similar to various features of RPGs).

    Quote Originally Posted by John Akam View Post
    The RPG elements we are talking about doesn't include customization of Lara Croft, the TOMB RAIDER herself. It simply involves the implementation of Role-Playing Game ideas into Tomb Raider game, like upgrades, conversation, buying-selling thing, choosing where to go. There is no character modification involve. Its not a simulation-style game.
    The idea I was throwing out for people to consider was about what features of RPG games would fit into TR games, and what wouldn't. Not touching Lara seems to be a sensible idea, and I guess the list you suggested is what I'm trying to get at, in that it could improve TR if done well enough.

  5. #30
    Nooooooooooooooooo

    Sorry if that seemed inappropriate, but I really detest RPGs.
    I've never played one that i've liked and i've played a LOT.
    It's not like I haven't given the genre a chance because I really have.

    The RPG elements in TRAOD were bad enough, anything more RPG-like would probably kill me.

    Sorry if I haven't expanded on my opinion enough, it's actually quite hard to describe how I hate RPGs but maybe they just aren't for some people.
    "I've lived many times longer than your entire civilization, but i've never seen such delicious irony..." R.I.P. Natla

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    I think RPG elements have already been included in non-AoD TR games:
    • TRII/TRIII also had a bit of the RPG-style gameplay with the Monks in Barkhang, or the Marines in the South Pacific. It was the player's choice for them to be allies, or for them to be enemies.
    • TRIII's "choose where you go" is RPG-ish in that it determines what weapons you can keep in the game. (a lot of people know to go to Nevada first).
    • TR4/5 has weapon customisation where you can add laser sights to weapons, or choose the ammo type for the weapon to increase the weapon's strength.
    • In Tomb Raider: Legend, the player can get more advanced pistols by finding bronze/silver relics.
    • In Tomb Raider: Underworld, the player can increase the health-capacity by finding/picking up Relics.


    I think it is at least worth considering and discussing the benefits of RPG-elements, what they could do to improve the game, before dismissing them.
    Maybe elements such as those are interesting additions, but anything too RPGy is unattractive in a Tomb Raider game. For example, the conversations in AoD which affect where you go next (namely in the Paris level). Those annoyed me a great deal. That being said, the most difficult game I have ever played is called "The Longest Journey," and that was an RPG. I just don't think that RPG and Tomb Raider are very cohesive.
    Obsession and compulsion are much the same. Either way, we are neither of us are our own masters.

  7. #32
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    WHAT THE F*** R U PEOPLE THINKING!!! Do u what another TR:AoD? http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/...milies/wut.gif SERIOUSLY, I don't want Eidos to turn Lara into Final Fantasy, or any kind of crap like that! By the way, a variety in outfit selection, weapon selection, and level selection are NOT RPG elements! They are great things which, TRU may have f***ed a little bit in, but are some of the CRUCIAL elements that made games like TRL and TRA fun!

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    I think RPG elements have already been included in non-AoD TR games:
    • TRII/TRIII also had a bit of the RPG-style gameplay with the Monks in Barkhang, or the Marines in the South Pacific. It was the player's choice for them to be allies, or for them to be enemies.
    • TRIII's "choose where you go" is RPG-ish in that it determines what weapons you can keep in the game. (a lot of people know to go to Nevada first).
    • TR4/5 has weapon customisation where you can add laser sights to weapons, or choose the ammo type for the weapon to increase the weapon's strength.
    • In Tomb Raider: Legend, the player can get more advanced pistols by finding bronze/silver relics.
    • In Tomb Raider: Underworld, the player can increase the health-capacity by finding/picking up Relics.


    I think it is at least worth considering and discussing the benefits of RPG-elements, what they could do to improve the game, before dismissing them.
    But that's nothing major. Those are minor nudges, things I didn't necessarily mind.

    I'm talking the Big Kahuna, a semi/full on TR, RPG style.
    I might rent it if it were to come out before I judged it too harshly, but nothing more. I just don't really like RPGs that much.

  9. #34
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    WHAT THE F*** R U PEOPLE THINKING!!! Do u what another TR:AoD? SERIOUSLY, I don't want Eidos to turn Lara into Final Fantasy, or any kind of crap like that! By the way, a variety in outfit selection, weapon selection, and level selection are NOT RPG elements! They are great things which, TRU may have f***ed up a little bit in, but are some of the CRUCIAL elements that made games like TRL and TRA fun!

  10. #35
    The bits of RPG is not the main reason for the failure of AoD. It's the bugs, the controls, and the fact that it's unfinished. In fact, if the game is finished in the first place, the RPG bits wouldn't be as pathetic as the final product - the one we bought and play (and I enjoy).

    Who knows, buying and selling weapons and equipments for Tomb Raider could be fun rather than picking those up in abandoned tombs and such, lying on the ground somewhere (Makes me remember the chocolate bar in the sewer in AoD. Disgusting much!). I remember I was having fun buying and upgrading weapons and equipments while playing Resident Evil 4 ... and then having more fun shooting the poor merchant to death right after !!!
    A refrigerator- when you open the door, the light goes on, but when you close the door, the light goes off... or does it?

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by John Akam View Post
    The bits of RPG is not the main reason for the failure of AoD. It's the bugs, the controls, and the fact that it's unfinished. In fact, if the game is finished in the first place, the RPG bits wouldn't be as pathetic as the final product - the one we bought and play (and I enjoy).
    They may have not been the main reason, but they sure contributed.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Akam View Post
    (Makes me remember the chocolate bar in the sewer in AoD. Disgusting much!).
    Good point.
    Obsession and compulsion are much the same. Either way, we are neither of us are our own masters.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by briek View Post
    They may have not been the main reason, but they sure contributed.
    Yeah, but it might not have been one of the reason for the failure if the game was finished. It could be an interesting addition that TR need so much back then.

    ...but then again, if the game was ever finished, there won't be any bugs, no huge control problems... and there won't be a bad sale. Then there isn't gonna be a Legend, an Anniversary (CD ones) and UNDERWORLD!

    Hmmm... so that's why AoD was meant to fail... So that we can have the Tomb Raider as it is today. I wonder whether that is such a good thing though? And that's a question. Not an opinion.
    A refrigerator- when you open the door, the light goes on, but when you close the door, the light goes off... or does it?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Akam View Post
    Yeah, but it might not have been one of the reason for the failure if the game was finished. It could be an interesting addition that TR need so much back then.

    ...but then again, if the game was ever finished, there won't be any bugs, no huge control problems... and there won't be a bad sale. Then there isn't gonna be a Legend, an Anniversary (CD ones) and UNDERWORLD!

    Hmmm... so that's why AoD was meant to fail... So that we can have the Tomb Raider as it is today. I wonder whether that is such a good thing though? And that's a question. Not an opinion.
    Main reason I think it failed was because CORE's heart just was not in the series anymore, they didnt even want to do any after part 4, but due to fans being p'd off,they felt they had to because of all the backlash.

    I think thats the main reason the last two(Chronicles/AOD) werent even close to being on par to 1-4. In my opinion anyways

    AOD wasn't the worst game in the world like people made it out to be or do make it out to be, that title belongs to Dark Messiah MM. First game that I actually THREW away and didnt care if I lost money(bought it used) it was THAT bad lol

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    This seems to have gained some discussion around these boards at the moment, so I thought I would take the time to create a thread to ask for opinions on the matter.

    What are your thoughts on the inclusion of RPG elements into TR9, or possibly future Tomb Raider games?

    Remember, keep an open mind to this idea whether you are for it, or against it

    (Not everyone will necessarily share your point of view on this subject)

    Some things to consider:
    Maintaining features of what Tomb Raider is now, the effects that RPG-Elements would have on:
    • Storyline
    • Tomb Raiding and Exploration gameplay
    • Moving around an environment
    • Combat
    • Enemies
    • Traps, and dodging traps
    • Vehicles
    • Puzzles

    and how would the 'original spirit' of Tomb Raiding, the things we like from the TR series, be preserved in the RPG gameplay so that fans of the series would still play a RPG-Tomb Raider.

    The Inclusion of RPG Elements into Tomb Raider
    How would features of RPGs be included into the Tomb Raider gameplay:
    • Interaction with other characters
    • Inventory system
    • Trading of Items
    • Levelling up/upgrading of the character
    • Towns/Hubs


    Also consider sharing:
    • What RPGs you have played
    • What you liked about these RPGs
    • What elements from these RPGs you liked, and would like to see in Tomb Raider


    EDIT (thanks LCR):
    p.s. For those who don't know what RPG stands for: Role Playing Game
    AOD had some RPG elements. we all know how that worked out...
    i can't see TR with RPG elements. i mean not being able to complete puzzles or areas cos you do not have a high enough level? upgrading weapons? picking which line of conversation to use? party members? upgrading different criteria separately? i dunno...i really don't see it...
    imagine dying to a trap cos you're "rogue" skill wasn't high enough to detect it...ugh
    i think TR should be left as it is...if anything, they should iron out what glitches they had in TRU and write up a really really good story. other than that i think this engine and the current gameplay is fine.
    also, i've played a lot of RPGs (mostly blizzard, obsidian and bioware stuff, though i've played elder scrolls 2&3)...most recent one though would be Mass Effect more than a year ago. haven't started fallout or fable. waiting for the holidays...
    hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by CAARaeed View Post
    AOD had some RPG elements. we all know how that worked out...
    AoD also had walking, running, sprinting, jumping, shooting, and melee. Look at TR:U, compare the implementations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAARaeed View Post
    i can't see TR with RPG elements. i mean not being able to complete puzzles or areas cos you do not have a high enough level? upgrading weapons? picking which line of conversation to use? party members? upgrading different criteria separately? i dunno...i really don't see it...
    imagine dying to a trap cos you're "rogue" skill wasn't high enough to detect it...ugh
    i think TR should be left as it is...if anything, they should iron out what glitches they had in TRU and write up a really really good story. other than that i think this engine and the current gameplay is fine.
    also, i've played a lot of RPGs (mostly blizzard, obsidian and bioware stuff, though i've played elder scrolls 2&3)...most recent one though would be Mass Effect more than a year ago. haven't started fallout or fable. waiting for the holidays...
    Forced/compulsory RPG elements like you suggested would not work, but I think that customisation RPG-style could be an interesting thing, if done correctly.

  16. #41
    I want to see more hand-to-hand combat in the next one, but none of that AOD crap that was just horrible

  17. #42
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    I don't think RPG is for TR. It just doesn't make any sense. Lara gaining levels, buying customizations. The only element that could work is obviously re-visiting locations and having a "home" world (Croft Manor). Having the ending being up to the player could be interesting, but it may not be necessarily successful. Also, I found with playing RPGs is that they can be a little too long, which makes them dull - the same fighting over and over again, and some areas cannot be completed until you gain a certain level, which is just annoying.
    Saving is fun, kids! Save constantly.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rachie View Post
    I don't think RPG is for TR. It just doesn't make any sense. Lara gaining levels, buying customizations. The only element that could work is obviously re-visiting locations and having a "home" world (Croft Manor). Having the ending being up to the player could be interesting, but it may not be necessarily successful. Also, I found with playing RPGs is that they can be a little too long, which makes them dull - the same fighting over and over again, and some areas cannot be completed until you gain a certain level, which is just annoying.
    Well, buying customisations/upgrades could work, IMHO. If the player were able to buy/find upgrades for, say, the tranq. gun so that the tranq. lasted for longer, or for the pistols to allow them to shoot faster. Given that the combat mechanics of TR are fairly independant of the exploration/raiding, it could fit in in that way. Doing this could allow TR to be a trend-setter in terms of the action genre, could also flop it pretty hard. TR1 was a revolutionary game; it would be nice if TR was back to top-spot again.
    But then again, trailing is safer. Perhaps if RPG-Action games grow in popularity we will see some of these things be included in TR because it 'works' elsewhere.

    RPG-elements (not necessarily making TR a full blown RPG) would have the potential to make things longer; but that would not be worth it if it was just through adding repetitive combat into things. Legend did that, and I would hope the developers have learned not to force that into the game.
    Perhaps make it optional so that combat is more challenging (for those that want it), and the game longer... although that idea doesn't come under discussion of RPGs.

  19. #44
    ABSOLUTELY NO RPG elements in Tomb Raider please!!
    Lets not forget they tried that before and look what happened. TR is not a RPG and it was never meant to be. If they start to go down that route again I think it will kill of TR for good.
    Why try to improve on something that was already perfect? and lets face it Crystal cant even get the full essence of what a TR should be so how can they improve on something they cant even get right or recreate to start with.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by burt_ie View Post
    ABSOLUTELY NO RPG elements in Tomb Raider please!!
    Lets not forget they tried that before and look what happened. TR is not a RPG and it was never meant to be. If they start to go down that route again I think it will kill of TR for good.
    RPG stuff was done before? Yes, but it was done in TRAoD.
    AoD also had walking, running, sprinting, jumping, shooting, and melee (and look what happened ). Look at TR:U, which has walking, running, sprinting, jumping, shooting, compare the implementations. RPG could make TR such a better game.

    So, why do you think RPG elements would be so bad, since AoD isn't really a great example of why it might not?

    Quote Originally Posted by burt_ie View Post
    Why try to improve on something that was already perfect? and lets face it Crystal cant even get the full essence of what a TR should be so how can they improve on something they cant even get right or recreate to start with.
    "Why try to improve on something that was already perfect?" ... then you go onto say that CD games aren't perfect? Which one is it?
    Because if TR is not where it once was; then RPG-elements(/other new game features) could help bring TR back to the top position; if TR has the essence of TR that TR1-4 had, then look at the Core games; they're a demonstration of the need for a game like TR to evolve, and RPG elements could be a good way to do this.

    NOT making TR an RPG, but bringing RPG characteristics into things; it could work.
    It could make the game's story that much more involving; if subtle tweaks to the story were allowed. Rather than being a purely linear storyline of "anything goes", the storyline might slightly change based on the actions of Lara; it would be an interactive story (to an extent), and would make the player feel involved.

  21. #46
    wonderful ideas...but..some are too p...... to give it a try(with the aod excuse)

  22. #47
    I think I like it!! . . . . But . . . . I'm not sure how you could incorporate these things into the game. And besides, it would probably take three years to make( If you made it right)











    IF YOU MADE IT RIGHT, BUZZ MONKEY!!!!!!
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by rg_001100 View Post
    I think RPG elements have already been included in non-AoD TR games:
    • TRII/TRIII also had a bit of the RPG-style gameplay with the Monks in Barkhang, or the Marines in the South Pacific. It was the player's choice for them to be allies, or for them to be enemies.
    • TRIII's "choose where you go" is RPG-ish in that it determines what weapons you can keep in the game. (a lot of people know to go to Nevada first).
    • TR4/5 has weapon customisation where you can add laser sights to weapons, or choose the ammo type for the weapon to increase the weapon's strength.
    • In Tomb Raider: Legend, the player can get more advanced pistols by finding bronze/silver relics.
    • In Tomb Raider: Underworld, the player can increase the health-capacity by finding/picking up Relics.


    I think it is at least worth considering and discussing the benefits of RPG-elements, what they could do to improve the game, before dismissing them.
    Yeah, ok, so RPG type elements have been added to the past. Lots of games do that now. The fact that it hasn't been a heavy influence on TR thus far, for me it makes TR stand out amongst the crowd.

    Aod toughed RPG heavily and took away those aspect that I love about TR. Mainly the action. Interaction with characters, that is to say conversations, irks me to a level that make me do this. I hate when my kid brothers ask me to pass certain games for them that have subtitles out the wazoo. It's a grueling experience for me.

    The sandbox thing though, I dig, if only it could be done right. *patiently waits for Uncharted 2 to see if they have done it right* however I would like they keep some linear puzzles in. Perhaps one sandbox level can lead to another sandbox and yet another, each time and path ends with different results.

    The weapon's customization would be meaningless unless they make each weapon unique in its effectiveness. In TRU for instance, they all sound and killed enemies to the same degree.
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  24. #49
    "The fact that it hasn't been a heavy influence on TR thus far, for me it makes TR stand out amongst the crowd."
    TR will come under the influence, eventually, if it is to survive in the games industry. I bet my wishes for combat may even be fulfilled, to an extent, in the next game; TR:U received some comments from reviews about lack of cover system. I won't repeat my views here, but in summary (for those that don't know), it would be "expand options", or something like that.

    "Aod toughed RPG heavily and took away those aspect that I love about TR. Mainly the action."
    The RPG mechanics of AoD were used purely as a puzzle/game device; like the door/key thing. You weren't able to progress through, it was "locked off" until you'd increased strength (the "key"). It was an extension of the same exact mechanic Core had used in TR1-5, they were just unlucky that it didn't work for AoD.
    Aside from that, AoD's action was not restricted by RPG elements, only bugs/poor controls, or puzzle mechanics already in place in the game.

    "The sandbox thing though, I dig, if only it could be done right. *patiently waits for Uncharted 2 to see if they have done it right*"
    When TR1 first came out, it was a revolutionary game, and is held in respect as one of the best TR games by many fans.... I don't think TR should be the "good game that does the things other games do well" type of game; all games will progressively evolve to that. TR should be a revolutionary title, with many great new, never-before-seen mechanics that work well in the game. (Although I suppose no one's really looking for that kind of thing nowadays).

  25. #50
    Ok, screw the RPG gayness ..... U need THIS:

    Ok u have a Venice level w the same structure as Mexico but u use a jetski instead of ur bike to get around. The locations are St Marks square/ Doges Palace /Rialto Bridge etc etc. Then the Russians turn up and pour petrol on the canals and set it on fire. U swim underneath the fire & climb on the burning rooftops . Then you have an epic jetski gunfight out on the Lagoon with Venice burning in the background ftw

    So on the jetski - Y button to jump between moving jetskis when close, like Halo 3 ftw. Lara will jump with her elbow out to tw@t the baddie off his jetski ftw . You accelerate on the A button, R trigger for shooting and L trigger for powerslide. RB for cover crouch on the jetski like the shield in gears 2 ftw. Then u can blindfire in cover but only accelerate without steering. LB to jump the jetski then if u hold L- stick forward the jetski will dive underwater for around 10 seconds. Then u shoot the Russians from underwater or dive off the jetski and swim around. If u r underwater u hold Y to latch onto other Jetskis as they drive past on the surface - then Lara does a balletic remount like Legolas jumping on his horse in Two Towers ftw. Then the Italian river police turn up on Motor boats and pile into the gunbattle with tear gas, water cannons and riot guns ftw. I think CD could do it

    The Venice outfit for Lara would be a ripped Prada black dress like Camille in Quantum of Solace. A proper cloth dress would look great underwater. Or u use the wet suit + spear gun from level 1 in Underworld.... Or the tranquilzer gun on the jetski baddies hehe - then they go out of control. U use ur magnetic grapple on the buoys for Dark Knight/Batpod style takedowns where u clothesline, flip or drag the baddie jetskis into other boats.... ftw. That would be much better than the RUBBISH jetski in Uncharted 1 where u had to stop before u can shoot - dumbass Drake w stupid manHEAD

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