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Thread: [MAJOR SERIES SPOILERS] Legacy of Kain VI: What would you do?

  1. #51
    The reason I don't think there should be any more paradoxes for now is that once you start ignoring causality or making up your own, you introduce all kinds of chicken or the egg type scenarios that don't have a definitive answer, so you can't tell what happened because of what. Complicated is fine, but too much of what I described above can lead to parts of the plot becoming incomprehensible and can take out a lot of the enjoyment from it.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  2. #52
    I think that's a danger if you try to understand the story of the whole series through one game, which is something I'd try to avoid. The game idea I detailed above would feature story elements from all of the previous games, but in way that either introduces you to them for the first time or reintroduces you to them as a fan of the series. It would be written and directed in a manner where there would be gaps that the loyal fanbase could fill in without thinking about it too much and that new fans wouldn't need to look into if they didn't want to. It would have a dual design in that regard, a game with two types of gamer in mind.

    I think the inclusion of the Chronoplast could be a good device to include backstory for the previous games, which could also be entirely optional depending on the player's choices. For instance, William could discover a library of knowledge about various things loyal fans would recognise from the previous games (whether they are past or future events) but this information would take the form of readable 'lore pages' on a menu screen (much like those teased at in the screens for Dead Sun).

    It's just an idea I can see how it would look complicated to be honest. Maybe I'm just overly enthusiastic

    EDIT: The Chronoplast could also act as like a hub/batcave for William. His role in Nosgoth's timeline would have greatly changed due to events and he would need to lie low.
    Last edited by mappalazarou; 26th Feb 2014 at 16:08.
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  3. #53
    I really did mean unanswerable, not just difficult to understand.

    The sentence after this is a lie.
    The sentence before this is the truth.

    Which sentence is the truth?

    ^^How do you answer questions line that? It's not possible, because whatever answer you give will disprove itself.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  4. #54
    As I say, I do think that's only applicable if you're trying to explain the whole series though one game. Paradoxes are fine in my book and you don't need to keep constant track on all of them. I watch Doctor Who after all.
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  5. #55
    Are you saying the series doesn't have to make sense as long as each separate game does? I really don't agree there.

    I watch Doctor Who as well, but I'm really not keen on the sort of plot point that Steven Moffet likes to use where the Doctor would (made up example) die, then come back from the future to prevent himself from dying. It's completely illogical, because the fact that he dies would mean he isn't alive to come back and rescue himself.

    I mean, events can happen in the wrong order, but not relative to themselves. If event A causes event B and event B caused event A, then event B essentially caused event B. It's the same as saying event B didn't have a cause at all. It's perfectly fine for event B to happen before event A, but for event B to be the cause of event A is a violation of causality.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  6. #56
    My interpretation of time travel within fiction is a lot looser and therefore a lot more flexible than what you're describing, because I feel that with something like this - well, it has to be frankly. I don't think that a new Legacy of Kain necessarily has to fall in line with all of the set rules of the series thus far because then it becomes a danger to how much you can make the game your own as a studio.

    That's why I think the idea to continue the series through a time travel/alternate reality means is important. Kain in this new game would be present just as Older Spock is present in both Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness, for example.

    I don't think that time travel within any narrative should be too narrow especially when alternate timelines can emerge here and there every time a character makes a simple choice to turn left or right at a signpost. So far the series has followed a strict history and I would retain that history, but like with anything where time travel is involved - you can change things without necessarily endangering the past canon, without dismissing it. It's a good way to maintain utter creative control I think. I also think it's possible that there's a timeline out there within this canon where it's entirely plausible that the Elder God never resurrected Raziel, and sent another agent after Kain instead. That's just an example of how things might have changed.

    Of course this act would completely alter the events of Soul Reaver and Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance, but whose to say that there isn't some alternate timeline where the Elder God made a different choice. This would of course mean that Raziel would have to be resurrected through other means to end up within the Reaver, or perhaps in that timeline Kain goes in search of Raziel's soul in order to complete the cycle of the Reaver's lifespan.

    When a universe such as this contains a time machine as advanced as the Chronoplast, then why couldn't all manner of alternate timelines featuring the same characters in different scenarios exist as a consequence?

    Back to the William/Kain/Elder God idea - the timeline would split off when a young William inadvertently discovers the Chronoplast in the past. From that point onwards the timeline is changed. Kain would still be Kain from Defiance, having time-travelled to a point where young William exists and having come from the timeline within which the other games have been set, but the younger Kain of that time would also exist and - because of changed events - would grow to become a being similar to older Kain, if not exactly like older Kain, even if the events which lead up to the collapse of the Pillars are a little different.

    I don't think much of this would be explained through dialogue, but there'd be enough suggestion and lore throughout the story (mainly through the Chronoplast device itself) to allow any loyal fans to fill in the gaps, so I stand by the idea.

    Nice to meet another Whovian!

    EDIT: In order to keep continuity with Kain's 'new memories' scene in the end of Soul Reaver 2, I would have him carry a piece of whatever the Chronoplast is made of around with him, much like the Nexus Stone, which offers him some protection against the changes in the timeline. He would become almost like Jack Harkness, a 'fact' that is never meant to happen.

    I think the role suits Kain's character rather well myself
    Last edited by mappalazarou; 27th Feb 2014 at 16:13.
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  7. #57
    Alright, so I haven't given it too much thought (won't stop me from coming up with a wall of text), but I have some ideas of what I would do. First of all, I would want to advance the overall story line of defeating the hylden once and for all and restoring the pillars, though a spinoff would be cool too (I'd probably do vampire Raziel or Vorador in that case). I would want to try and fix up a bunch of the little continuity issues existing within the current cannon.

    I would pick a human as the new character (we have a wraith and a vampire, human seemed logical) and would make it the son/daughter of Raziel (leaning toward daughter since LoK is kind of a sausage fest, plus I could try and use a daughter to explain Vorador's mystery woman, though I don't know how). It would start shortly before Raziel the human is killed, and the son/daughter (young adult age) is quickly advancing in the order of the Sarafan (a father like Raziel would do that to you). One day, Raziel leaves with the other inquisitors to kill Janos, and Rahab takes Raziel's son/daughter with him to destroy a minor vampire nest (in an attempt to explain why Rahab was not present at Janos' death). They return, Raziel mentions they may have another vampire in pursuit (since he saw wraith Raziel), Rahab and the others (not the new protagonist) immediately go to the Sarafan stronghold, and are killed by wraith Raziel.

    Raziel's son/daughter hears of the slaughter (being told of a blue demon and a green vampire) and forms an unnatural hatred of vampires, and becomes a renegade vampire hunter (not with the Sarafan). One day, two mysterious people show up (one male, one female), both apparently noble, and they tell the protagonist that they can help with revenge (sounds familiar to LoK storylines). They tell the protagonist that the vampires cannot all be killed in this era (giving the protagonist a brief lesson on how fate cannot be changed), but promise that they can help the protagonist destroy the vampires completely, though later in time. The protagonist is sent through time (the female noble can create portals or something, you'll find out why later) to accomplish certain tasks to destroy the vampires once and for all.

    I have some ideas for what those tasks would be, but like I said, I honestly haven't thought it out all that much. I would like to have the protagonist: 1) Do something with Malek, the idea being that Malek can help them eradicate vampires (in an attempt to explain why Malek has two corpses in Blood Omen), 2) Resurrect Umah (possibly with help from Mortanius, as a means of explaining where he was during the massacre of the circle), so she can resurrect Vorador (the protagonist would see Umah's existence as a means to an end to get revenge on Vorador), since Umah was originally going to be the one to resurrect Vorador, 3) Go to the Soul Reaver era to kill the Priestess there as a means of destroying human support of vampires (and to include some cool cut content such as the Undercity), 4) Find Gein/Asher from Dead Sun (justified by his resemblance to Raziel, the protagonist would want to see him and his kind destroyed as well). 5) The smokestack is destroyed (maybe), 6) The Silent Cathredal is activated to eradicate the remaining vampires from Nosgoth's SR era (which was also cut from SR).

    By going to the different eras, the overall storyline of LoK could be explained, game by game (a bit of back story of the era could be given by the nobles before each task). In the end, after performing all of the tasks to which he/she was set to do, the protagonist returns to the two nobles who reveal themselves to be none other than Kain and the Seer (using Kain's tricky noble disguise from BO). Kain reveals that he had manipulated the protagonist the whole time and had them bring him great warriors from throughout time so that he can build a final empire, pure of corruption, to confront the Hylden with. It is then revealed that Malek has been turned into a vampire, and Vorador, Umah, and Gein/Asher have all joined Kain. A big fight ensues, the protagonist fights each of them, fights Kain, is killed, and raised as another of Kain's lieutenants. It ends with Kain taking all of his new lieutenants to post SR era and talking about how finally he can build a pure vampire empire to fight against the hylden.

    And that's about it, but I think it would be cool if Kain built his own 'circle of nine' for his new empire, and they could also evolve into awesome vampires like those of SR. I was thinking; protagonist of new game - Mind (not sure why or what they'd turn into), Gein/Asher - Dimension (could evolve to resemble Raziel more), Conflict - Malek (could become the Forsaken vamps that were scratched from SR), Nature - human priestess (unsure), Energy - Magnus (he'd have to be rasied too, unsure), Time - the seer (hylden/vampire hybrids), States - Vorador (could be cut wolf vampires from SR), Death - Umah (could resemble cut female vamps from SR).

    And yeah. That's what I came up with. I think it'd be cool.
    Last edited by Gugulug5000; 19th Mar 2014 at 04:52.

  8. #58
    Wait. didn't all story is ended in Defiance? Kain from future, his sword from future and Raziel from future "spoiler" in the past and save the world so SR, SR2 and BO2 never happend? Or BO2 happend because time paradox in SR2?
    I play it long time ago, so I might be wrong about something.

  9. #59
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    Wait. didn't all story is ended in Defiance? Kain from future, his sword from future and Raziel from future "spoiler" in the past and save the world so SR, SR2 and BO2 never happend? Or BO2 happend because time paradox in SR2?
    Yeah, story is over with Defiance so far. However, SR1, SR2 are completely intact and remain unaffected (otherwise history would have expelled the irritations in form of Kain/Raz). BO2 is the result of Raziel´s choices in SR2 which lead to Defiance story arc.

    As to the plot in Dead Sun, I´d rather not try to incorporate it as it´s not part of the canon.
    Last edited by RainaAudron; 19th Mar 2014 at 21:06.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by PlagueMaster View Post
    Wait. didn't all story is ended in Defiance? Kain from future, his sword from future and Raziel from future "spoiler" in the past and save the world so SR, SR2 and BO2 never happend? Or BO2 happend because time paradox in SR2?
    I play it long time ago, so I might be wrong about something.
    I wouldn't say it's over yet. Raina already covered most of what you said, but the pillars are still not restored, and the hylden have not been completely eliminated as a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by RainaAudron View Post
    As to the plot in Dead Sun, I´d rather not try to incorporate it as it´s not part of the canon.
    Yeah I included Gein/Asher in an attempt to make him actually part of the story, I agree Dead Sun should not be considered cannon, but since I was building my story around cut content from different games (priestess, smokestack, activation of silent cathedral from SR, Umah resurrecting Vorador from Defiance I believe, etc.) I thought Gein/Asher would be nice to use as well.
    Last edited by Gugulug5000; 19th Mar 2014 at 21:05.

  11. #61
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    With regard to Dead Sun I was among the many that was glad to hear it was cancelled just because of what little I understood it was, but from that little intel I got, combined with this lore we have been shown, it might not have been so bad. I couldn't peg down who or what this new hero was before, but now it appears to have been one of the ancient Razielim from back during the purge that was, like Dumah, killed but no destroyed and freed from death some time later, as a wraith, after the deformed Razielim resurfaced. That actually sounds pretty sweet.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by GenFeelGood View Post
    With regard to Dead Sun I was among the many that was glad to hear it was cancelled just because of what little I understood it was, but from that little intel I got, combined with this lore we have been shown, it might not have been so bad. I couldn't peg down who or what this new hero was before, but now it appears to have been one of the ancient Razielim from back during the purge that was, like Dumah, killed but no destroyed and freed from death some time later, as a wraith, after the deformed Razielim resurfaced. That actually sounds pretty sweet.
    I think this is a lot of speculation on your part...it wasn't indicated they had anything to do with the Razielim.
    Although they were very similar with Raziel himself (Wraith form of course). Blue, able to shift to spectral realm, and devour souls.
    One could speculate that (Wraith) Raziel was somehow able to pass on his gift...similar to vampire Raziel passing on the vampiric curse to create his clan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gugulug5000 View Post
    I wouldn't say it's over yet. Raina already covered most of what you said, but the pillars are still not restored, and the hylden have not been completely eliminated as a threat.
    I agree. To me, the story didn't end with defiance because the pillars are still broken...so Nosgoth is still doomed to decay (like seen in SR1). BUT, the Hylden threat was dealt in the events of BO2, no? (Young Kain closed their portal with the Nexus Stone)

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen View Post
    I agree. To me, the story didn't end with defiance because the pillars are still broken...so Nosgoth is still doomed to decay (like seen in SR1). BUT, the Hylden threat was dealt in the events of BO2, no? (Young Kain closed their portal with the Nexus Stone)
    I see Blood Omen 2 as more of a temporary fix. The ones that did escape when Kain refused the sacrifice have been dealt with, but there are still hordes of Hylden waiting to come back into Nosgoth to get revenge.

  14. #64
    Hi. I'm sorry, I do not speak English and this I can make mistakes. If I'm not mistaken, in this forum, you can leave your ideas on future games in the series? So. At the end of "Legacy of Kain Defiance" soul Raziel entered the Soul Reaver, Janos Audron killed, columns of Nosgoth destroyed. It would seem - the end! But I thought about it. Raziel finally killed Mobius consumed his soul, and what does it mean? If you think logically, Mobius - Guardian column time. except if he dies then the column will survive? She collapses! (If I am not wrong). But it is not important.

    Here is my idea of the the plot. Janos Audron dead, dead Moebius Raziel merged with the Soul Reaver. BUT! before entering the Reaver, Raziel absorbed soul Mobius means Raziel got his strength, and went into the Reaver gave him the strength to Mobius. Does not that mean that Kain can manage time using Reaver? Shorter. Kain realizes that something has gone wrong, that he made a mistake leaving Raziel into the abyss, and he has a chance to fix it using the Reaver. He goes into the past that would stop himself, which he does. But go back in time he left one detail - in the past also have the Soul Reaver (we'll get to that later). In the transition, he lost some memory. The last thing he remembered - he is ordered to throw Raziel into the abyss, and he does not remember where to look for yourself.

    Time he had as many, but that's no reason hesitate! After a long search for yourself in the past (which I still think) he still finds himself, trying to convince myself not to kill Raziel and explains what that means .... Further, I still come up with the story, and while I'll tell you about the time, and heroes. By the way, I'll post later an extension of my ideas. Heroes for whom we will play 2: Kain and Raziel! Yes yes yes, Raziel! just inside the Reaver. (I'll write about it later). And I would make two separate campaigns for the two heroes. If someone liked singing idea, write me a private message or leave comments!

    Remember, this is not the end! Tomorrow I will publish the sequel!

    The plot has not finalized until the end, and searches Kain himself in the past are not the main goal of the game!
    Last edited by RainaAudron; 21st Mar 2014 at 16:45. Reason: Double posting

  15. #65
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    Tbh, I am not really sure what I´ve just read

    Last edited by RainaAudron; 21st Mar 2014 at 17:35.

  16. #66
    Why not? I told you - it's not all that I wanted to write! especially since it is only an outline. Tomorrow will be my thoughts prodozhenie ok? Developers can catch my idea. I'm the author, I'm just curious to tell you it

  17. #67
    Kain would be expelled from history if he tried to prevent himself from throwing Raziel into the abyss. It would be a fatal paradox like Kain explains in Soul Reaver 2.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  18. #68
    possibly, but then Raziel went back in time to kill himself?


    oh god
    Last edited by RainaAudron; 22nd Mar 2014 at 10:49. Reason: Double posting

  19. #69
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    Raziel killing his human self is not a contradictory paradox - he always had to do it, otherwise his wraith future self wouldn´t exist in the first place and that would be a fatal paradox. As Kain explains - two instances of Soul Reaver create distortion in time during which one can alter the history to a slight extent - Raziel was destined to kill Kain in William´s Tomb, however Kain knew Raziel could choose to spare him. Again, all of this is in SR2 so I recommend watching the cutscenes again.

  20. #70
    ok, ok. we can hardly think of a continuation of the game, since it is logically complete. Raziel, Moebius, Janos Audron, Lord Hilden, Vorador, they're all dead, and I think you should not have to touch them. I thought I could make a game about a young Janos Audron, about how to create Nosgoth, about how vampires were cursed and how they began their war with Hilden.
    In any case, I believe that the game should not change its genre, and should continue to delight us with a kind of puzzles, search improvements character and enemies, and of course its charming atmosphere and soundtrack. I do not think that we need some sort of slasher. us (at least me and my friends) need in a classic style "Legacy of Kain"
    Last edited by marty_raziel; 22nd Mar 2014 at 12:41.

  21. #71
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    Can hardly think of a continuation? So we have no choice but to meander around in prequels and retcons?

    How about a story arc concerning Kain's fight against the Elder God, and the restoration of the Pillars? You know, those two massive incomplete plot threads left hanging at the end of Defiance? Too dull or inconspicuous I guess?

    It's like saying it's impossible to continue on from Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers or something, haha.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum View Post
    It's like saying it's impossible to continue on from Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers or something, haha.
    I agree with what you say about there being enough unresolved in the series to justify another game, that being said.
    Sorry, my nerds gonna come out a little, but if Legacy of Kain were equated to Lord of the Rings it would have stopped in Return of the King, when Aragorn recieved the anduril sword from Elrond, the night before everything was revolved.

    The series was that close to being finished.

  23. #73
    Can continue and should not? may need to act as a "Soul Reaver"? For example take a new, later time period and a new character? What do you think? Perhaps we should let Raziel and shift attention to Kain or anyone else?
    As I have said, "show must go". thought remains unfinished. When I was "Defiance" I felt what that satisfaction. I liked the last part of the game (Defiance) but it left me with a feeling of incompleteness, as if it something is missing. if the sixth part will be released, it should reveal the answers to all the questions that have accumulated during the game.About Elder God or about the Pillars, or even nothing. what, I do not know (yet I have no need to worry about such things)

    P.S. SHOW MUST GO!!!

  24. #74
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    marty_raziel stated English isn't his/her first language, so let's remember that when responding.

    I'll try and clear up some of your questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_raziel View Post
    So. At the end of "Legacy of Kain Defiance" soul Raziel entered the Soul Reaver, Janos Audron killed, columns of Nosgoth destroyed.
    Janos wasn't killed. He was possessed by the Hylden Lord, who used Janos' body to fly away from the Citadel after beating Raziel. Janos' blood will be used to open the Hylden Gate, which happens in the events of Blood Omen 2, but Janos will be kept alive.

    It would seem - the end! But I thought about it. Raziel finally killed Mobius consumed his soul, and what does it mean? If you think logically, Mobius - Guardian column time. except if he dies then the column will survive? She collapses! (If I am not wrong). But it is not important.

    Here is my idea of the the plot. Janos Audron dead, dead Moebius Raziel merged with the Soul Reaver. BUT! before entering the Reaver, Raziel absorbed soul Mobius means Raziel got his strength, and went into the Reaver gave him the strength to Mobius.
    Moebius' soul was eaten by Raziel, yes. However, Raziel doesn't gain powers from just any souls which he feasts on. The exceptions only to this were his brethren, and when consuming their souls, he did so differently. It didn't even seem voluntary, but more a forced absorption of their souls. You can see how this happens with Turel's soul in Defiance. He floats in the air and the soul energy washes over him. All other humans and vampires, or even demons, etc., he willfully opens his cowl and eats them that way. He seems to gain spiritual strength from them and that's it. The souls move on to the Elder God for processing back into the Wheel of Fate.

    Also, Moebius was killed by Kain and his hourglass token was restored to the Pillar of Time before the Pillars were destroyed. So, Moebius really ceased to be the Time Guardian before the Elder God resurrected him, and so should have Time Powers to take. The powers of the Guardians, other than the Balance Guardian, come from their Pillar Token, not their souls. The Balance Guardian's very soul is their token, so they would be possibly an exception.

    Raziel enters the sword just as he already had in previous timelines, just at a different point along the timeline. He has no Time Powers, or anything out of the ordinary. He has to remain the same to exist within the sword until it will be broken in the future, during the events of SR1, and then he will be the very Wraith Blade that Raziel has been carrying on his arm. This is a loop within time and time does not work in Nosgoth the way you're suggesting. You can't simply go back in time and change what you wish.

    Hope that helps.

  25. #75
    Hmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Hylden View Post
    marty_raziel stated English isn't his/her first language, so let's remember that when responding.

    I'll try and clear up some of your questions:



    Janos wasn't killed. He was possessed by the Hylden Lord, who used Janos' body to fly away from the Citadel after beating Raziel. Janos' blood will be used to open the Hylden Gate, which happens in the events of Blood Omen 2, but Janos will be kept alive.......

    .
    Yes, you're right, I did not realize some things. But I'm told you that this is only an outline, and that I could be wrong. Nevertheless, thank you for having corrected me. Now I found out about the chronology of the game a little more.
    But how do you think it is possible to come up with a sequel to the game, or have to walk around the Pillar, the ancient vampires and Hilden? I'm not saying that can not continue, you only need to take and consider all that has happened in Nosgoth, all the questions that have remained open, and uses them to think further plot of the game. This my opinion.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 25th Mar 2014 at 23:36. Reason: double posting, please use 'edit' function

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