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Thread: [MAJOR SERIES SPOILERS] Legacy of Kain VI: What would you do?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    The more I think on it, it would be great if the new character was a reanimation of William the Just or someone from Blood Omen. That would work towards telling the story of the series from the beginning for the new players that are unfamiliar with the series.

    It could start in the aftermath of Blood Omen, play through events leading up to Blood Omen 2 following Kain's army, and ending some time in the era of Soul Reaver fulfilling some task like piecing back together the shattered soul reaver sword.
    I think something that was developed around Blood Omen era, maybe examining some of the crazed motivations and plans of the Guardians would be cool. They could perhaps add (or redefine) a player to the board there, a minor one, that sees Kain's progression from a distance. I am not sure about taking things too far into Blood Omen 2 territory, as it was a bit messy in its interpretation. Although how Vorador got his head back needs to be sorted! I heard murmurings about the summoning ring that Kain got in BO being important, but surely if it was this alone then he could have done that in the second timeline. You could argue that due to arrogance he thought it best to leave the elder vampire dead, but he seemed no less arrogant post third paradox. They had plans for an Umah character to res him in Defiance at one stage, I thought. Soul Reaver era really needs Older Kain to go back into it and sort out, well I think. There's no reason that some of the timeline shifting and implications couldn't have had some strange effects.

  2. #27
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    I actually have an idea with regard to the Blood Omen 2 issue. In Blood Omen 2 there was a traitor to Kain named Sebastian as well as a champion of Kain named Magnus. Magnus went after the Sarafan Lord for the glory of Kain before the epic battle at the beginning of the game , but was defeated and sealed in the eternal prison. What if Sebastian had talked Magnus into going after the Sarafan Lord and also talked this new character into going with Magnus to ensure success, only to lead them both into a trap in order for Sebastian to prove his loyalty to the Sarafan Lord. But instead of being sent to the eternal prison like Magnus the Sarafan Lord recognizes what the character is and gets banished to the demon realm where he stays til he escapes, with Janos, arriving back in Nosgoth in the Soul Reaver era after Kain and Raziel have departed into the past.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 30th Jan 2014 at 03:42.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster View Post
    If you're saying Raziel's soul was split in two and only half became the wraith blade, it could possibly work since soul-splitting can be done as Kain did with his own. However, it would still cheapen Raziel's sacrifice in Defiance. Amy insisted that she didn't want to bring Raziel back for that reason.


    regardless of how some of you may feel at one point in time they were planning to bring back raziel in someway. (the dark prophecy)
    thats why I thought it would make sense to resurrect him a 3rd time when kain shattered the soul reaver.

    Quote Originally Posted by mappalazarou View Post

    Can you give a brief synopsis of what your story would be?

    Who would be the new main character/villain?

    How would Kain feature?

    What time period(s) would you set it in?

    What would the gameplay be like?


    I'll start, although I haven't come up with a good story or any characters!

    - I'd have Kain as a secondary character
    - The time period would be limited to one, like in Soul Reaver, so as to give the world a larger scale
    - I'd mix up the gameplay to be like a combination of Soul Reaver and Assassin's Creed, where you must navigate the world through exploration rather than being told by the game where to go


    I'm guessing nobody liked the Vorador approach?

    to be honest there is so much back story they could use in this era I thought it could possibly answer a few questions.



    and like the op said, the gameplay could play like assassin's creed (preferably without gimmicks and stick to the core gameplay)

    as for the time line it can go from anchient vampire/hylden war to blood omen/soul reaver 2 era.

    EDIT: unless they're reserving this era for Nosgoth part 2? : /
    Last edited by Chulo86; 30th Jan 2014 at 11:08.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chulo86 View Post
    regardless of how some of you may feel at one point in time they were planning to bring back raziel in someway
    They weren't, really.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Chulo86 View Post
    I'm guessing nobody liked the Vorador approach?

    to be honest there is so much back story they could use in this era I thought it could possibly answer a few questions.
    I'd love to play as Vorador or Mortanius. There are a few different eras they could be used in as well. Vorador when he's first sired, or when he attacks the circle and Mortanius during the rebellion or during the time between killing Ariel and resurrecting Kain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chulo86 View Post
    unless they're reserving this era for Nosgoth part 2? : /
    I'm not too keen on them numbering the games like that. It either scares off newcomers or makes it sound like the game will be a carbon copy of the previous one. Add a subtitle like Sons of Kain or The Hylden Wars etc.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum View Post
    man! after reading that it feels so cheap. : /

    you know now that I think of it, they might as well reboot the original blood omen.....
    eather that or work on a better sequel? : /

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster View Post
    I'd love to play as Vorador or Mortanius. There are a few different eras they could be used in as well. Vorador when he's first sired, or when he attacks the circle and Mortanius during the rebellion or during the time between killing Ariel and resurrecting Kain.
    not sure about playing as mortanius but those events can be added to the story

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster View Post
    I'm not too keen on them numbering the games like that. It either scares off newcomers or makes it sound like the game will be a carbon copy of the previous one. Add a subtitle like Sons of Kain or The Hylden Wars etc.
    I could see that, before the game was officialy announced I truelly believed "War For Nosgoth" was based off the anchient vampire / hylden war..... completely off :P
    Last edited by Chulo86; 30th Jan 2014 at 11:52.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chulo86 View Post
    man! after reading that it feels so cheap. : /

    you know now that I think of it, they might as well reboot the original blood omen.....
    eather that or work on a better sequel? : /
    You're disappointed that they insisted upon not resurrecting Raziel for the umpteenth time? Defiance was explicitly intended by that character's own creator to represent his last hurrah. Bringing back a protagonist whose tale is well and truly told only ends up feeling creatively bankrupt and abusive to the series as a whole when it's taken too far.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum View Post
    You're disappointed that they insisted upon not resurrecting Raziel for the umpteenth time? Defiance was explicitly intended by that character's own creator to represent his last hurrah. Bringing back a protagonist whose tale is well and truly told only ends up feeling creatively bankrupt and abusive to the series as a whole when it's taken too far.
    like I said, eather that or "create a better sequel"
    to be honest the creativity started to dwindle with defiance. it was a devil may cry rip off with weak gameplay/sound and the music was recycled from past LOK games. not to mention the environments also felt recycled when it came to the reaver forges and the art style was crippled compared to soul reaver 2.

    most LOK fans would agree that blood omen 2 was the weakest of the series.
    I actually thought defiance was the weakest because at least blood omen 2 regardless of the glitches had better level design and OST.

    and now discovering that raziel was going to be used as a one trick pony rather then his own character/game.
    I rather have the story retold but with modern game design. they can even add to it so that the story would make more sense instead of posting on forums with fan speculation.

    this also means maintaining the franchise within the same genre (open world action rpg aka the zelda clone)
    instead of going from diablo style, to zelda clone, to action adventure, to hack and slash.

  9. #34
    Are you saying you want to trade uncreative level design for an uncreative storyline? So much of the enjoyment of the stories was wanting to see what happened next and if the original story is just repeated, that anticipation would no longer be there. Kain has lived for approximately 2000 years. To start from scratch would be like saying in all that time, only one or two interesting things actually happened. *That* IMO, would be lack of creativity.

    Also, "One trick pony"? Raziel was in three games! Could be another if it's pre-abyss or early empire.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  10. #35
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    You may have some issues with the existing games, but that doesn't translate to a license for any shoddy standards in future storytelling. Retconning Amy's last word on Raziel, treading old ground, rebooting, none of these things can possibly enrich the mythology of Nosgoth in my opinion. As Graham Linehan once said, "you may think you want these things, but you really don't." The better route is to continue exploring new scenarios within the continuity and world we already have.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster View Post
    Are you saying you want to trade uncreative level design for an uncreative storyline? So much of the enjoyment of the stories was wanting to see what happened next and if the original story is just repeated, that anticipation would no longer be there. Kain has lived for approximately 2000 years. To start from scratch would be like saying in all that time, only one or two interesting things actually happened. *That* IMO, would be lack of creativity.

    Also, "One trick pony"? Raziel was in three games! Could be another if it's pre-abyss or early empire.
    bro, you got to let go man, (Amy is not coming back!)
    as a matter of fact I would go as far as saying george kelion and co are doing a magnificent job with the blog post, that I would even give them my own personal blessing into making a direct sequel! or complete reboot! D:

    I want to play something new D@#M IT!! >
    I'm tired of the old purist backlash. how many times did they re-invent mario?

    all I want is a vampire zelda clone with great voice acting and complex puzzle mechanics.
    I want the game to be at least 30hrs long, vast open environments that are both huge virtacally and horizontally (that means inside buildings, natuaral landscape and underground) + unique side missions.

    sequel,prequel,reboot or spin off.
    I just want a new L.O.K.........
    Last edited by Chulo86; 30th Jan 2014 at 15:04.

  12. #37
    Yes, they are doing a great job with the blog post and guess what? It's in a completely new era that we've never been in before and not just a re-run of Raziel's original journey in SR1 or Kain's in BO1.

    The definition of a reboot is:
    "In serial fiction, to reboot means to discard all continuity in an established series in order to recreate its characters, timeline and backstory from the beginning." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reboot_(fiction)

    Re-starting from the beginning is not the "something new" that you were asking for. It's re-treading old ground.

    EDIT: And you just asked for a Zelda clone immediately after complaining that Defiance was a DMC clone. Can't it be something that isn't a clone?
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster View Post
    And you just asked for a Zelda clone immediately after complaining that Defiance was a DMC clone. Can't it be something that isn't a clone?
    do you want to know the truth?
    now adays when it comes to L.O.K most people don't even know what I'm talking about. even back then when SR2 was still being published on news articles within the internet or magazine they still didn't!

    L.O.K is so underground that the ones that did play the games only remember the first soul reaver.
    nobody remembers blood omen! (they even say the same on Nosgoths facebook page BRING BACK SOUL REAVER!)
    SOME! even believe soul reaver was the first legacy of kain.

    the reason why I want the franchise rebooted as a zelda clone was because thats the reason what made it special to me.
    if not a zelda clone then assassin's creed. I would go for the witcher, but even a game like that feels too niche. (you literally can get lost! D: )

    I don't know,
    this my 2 cents, I'll let you guys continue with before I interrupted.

    Ps. by rebooting the franchise people would know blood omen. (and not just soul reaver.)
    hopfully they make the boss battles violent like in lords of shadow 1 & 2.
    Last edited by Chulo86; 30th Jan 2014 at 15:00.

  14. #39
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    It's not like those home truths haven't been given a million times, not just over ten years for this franchise but for countless others which went into hibernation as well. We all very well know the series has to return with a new audience and a respectful distance in mind. That's ye olde argumente. It's singularly old news.

    The only relevant question to be concerned with is, what's the most compelling and appealing path for the story to take. Do you move on to a new chapter of your own design and keep the old ones the way they are, or do you try to mess with the work of your predecessors by "reimagining" it, treading water, and inevitably diluting the mythology and whole franchise.

    The executives' pockets have every chance to be lined either way, as long as a good game emerges at the end of it all.

  15. #40
    to be honest i would love the whole series remade with new game mechanics and combat only keeping the epic voice acting and and plot. then they could make a pure sequal once the series has has attracted all those new young profitable fans.

  16. #41
    ich würde mich drüber freuenen, wenn sie the dark prophecy weiter machen könnten und fertig stellen. ist nur die frage ob sie das können. was als 7. teil gut wäre, fals es vorbei wäre, wäre mal die geschichte von Janos und wie der krieg begann, offenbar hat keiner mehr eine ahnung wer genau das angefangen hat, außer das dieser parasit es angezettelt hat.

    von einem film wie vom FF wäre auch nice SE hat ja die technik, nur das es mehrteiliger film sein sollte, wo die geschichte erzählt wird.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I would freuenen about it, if they could make the dark prophecy continue and finish. is only the question whether they can. what as 7 part would be good fals it was over, times would be the story of Janos and how the war began, apparently no one has any idea who started exactly, except that this parasite has instigated.

    of a film-like from FF would also be nice yes SE has the technology, only that it should be a multi-part movie, where the story is told.
    signature image

  17. #42
    I have always wanted to see a game playing as the vampiric Raziel. The game would follow Kain's lieutenants and show their evolutions from human like to more divine as Raziel put it in the opening movie to soul reaver 1. Just like other games in the series the world would be open roam, however vampiric abilities will be required to unlock new areas of the game. I envision something of a cross between soul raver 1 and blood omen 2.

  18. #43
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    Vorador is the best idea I think if Kain or Raziel are not going to be main characters. And as you say this would allow for the expansion of the already existing story. And it would not end the franchise but open it up to many more games. It would be possible to make games following the story of all Raziels brothers, even Mobius. This would be amazing as most people I talk to love this series for the story and puzzles. I'm honestly disappointed with the idea of Nosgoth MMO. From what I can gather it just seems like they have not given any thought to what made this series so popular. It's like all of a sudden game franchise's think they all have to go online? I will play it anyway and hopefully be surprised?

  19. #44
    Although I see the developers being obsesed with this and try to follow the lore, and that's really nice of them, I also say I don't like this idea of PvP death-match as well as the entropic devolution of the razielim and the turelim-tank. I don't think Vorador could be applied as a playable character as he just forged the Reaver; he didn't even know what the elders wanted it for. I would also prefer to have a prequel following the rise of Kain's empire through the eyes of the leutenants, perhaps 6 medium-sized campains. An HD collection of BOs SRs and Defiance would also prepare the land for a sequel (I am talking about introducing new people to the series).

  20. #45
    This is actually my first post on these boards, just for the fact that this is really the only topic that truly matters to me when it comes to LoK (I'm still very exited for Nosgoth, mainly because it reminds me of a Half Life mod I used to play back in the day called Vampire Slayer). The truth of the matter is that if they ever try to re-boot the series or go forward without following where the plot was going, the game will fail with LoK fans. Square Enix may not care about that fact, since we are a relatively small niche fanbase, and I'm sure they only really care about the profits, but without a focus on the story the game will never attract it's original base.

    Legacy of Kain has never been a mass seller, even in its day. This series is one that by its very nature can never reach mass appeal. While the games are entertaining, entertainment, I feel, was never what they were attempting. Amy and the devs always seemed to be trying to craft a modern day epic. A series of games that were more about making the players think and ponder aspects of philosophy of fate and the human condition (ironically with a cast of mainly monsters). There was a certain level grandiose vision that surrounded the series. A vision that I feel has never been applied to another game or series of games. LoK was a modern epic greater then the sum of its parts.

    The fact is that even if you re-booted the story or jumped some where in the timeline with a new character to start over, you would never be able to pull in casual gamers that make up the mass market without sacrificing the thing that made this series different from others in the first place. The mass gaming public is sadly not looking for a in depth philosophical storyline, with morally ambiguous characters and machiavellian intrigue. They want simple entertainment. Fun gameplay, with straight forward motivation in the story to play to the end. The only way this series could ever achieve mainstream success, like GTA or Assassin's Creed, would be to make it into something it is not and dumb its plot down significantly. No amount of starting over will ever make it a mainstream title, because it is not difficulty of entry (in this case, the 5 previous games) that prevents this from being accessible, it is the style of the series itself.

    Square Enix, if you ever read this I will say this is really the only thing you can do. Make a final game that wraps up the LoK plotline, and do your best to write it in the style that Amy Hennig layed out in the foundation. I will be honest, you will not have a mass seller on your hands. You might make 1-2 million sales, maybe more if you're lucky. Do this for the true fans of the series, so we can have some finality, because I can tell you this, unless your planing to strip this series of everything that made it unique you will never have a highly profitable series on your hands. I'd have no problem if you even used less intensive graphical resources to make the sequel so you can save some money. If you made it cheap, but true to the series we loved, every single LoK fan would buy it up. After giving us our finale feel free to do whatever you want with LoK then. If you want to re-boot and aim for mainstream appeal, go for it, but give us our true finale before you change the series to appease the easily amused casual gamers.
    Last edited by Afreeby; 14th Feb 2014 at 06:38.

  21. #46
    Hmm, am I free to throw in a completely ridiculous idea?

    Not just a new main character but a totally different beast altogether. The earliest games - Blood Omen in particular - featured imagery of Dragons. I'm going with the idea that the Elder is a false God that replaced another already within Nosgoth the whom I'll call the Reaver Dragon a creature that drew in the souls of the dead, recycling and dividing the energies before breathing them back out into the world to live, grow and return to the Dragon to once more be recycled and split to create even more life ala Wheel of Fate.

    The period in which it is set would begin with the Elders arrival to Nosgoth as a tiny, helpless looking thing claiming sanctuary. He would spin some lie about being expelled from his home by the Devourer of Worlds and beg the aid of the resident Wheel to let him borrow some of the energies of Nosgoth to regain his strength and return to defeat the Devourer.
    The Dragon by it's very nature due to the job it performs would be trusting and agree to share a tiny portion of the souls energies and the Elder is accepted and plants itself deep within the Earth out of 'fear from the Devourer' . Given the Elders already manipulative nature a skilled writer would have the material to be able to write this scene far more convincingly than I'm describing it.

    The story would continue right up to the creation of the pillars so the majority of the game play can take place during the War that the Elder started with his subtle whispers.
    Our poor Dragon would be oblivious to the Elders machinations but would notice the disagreements brewing between the Hylden and Vampires, however they would be unwilling to become involved as this would cause an entire race to turn against them, despite this they seek to calm tensions by going to both sides and thwarting attacks from the other side to stop a full scale War. They would do this by shifting from Reaver Dragon to a Hylden or Vampire form and fighting like a member of that race albeit a very strong version.

    The Elder would pretend to help pointing out the attacks and using the Dragon's attempts to quell the fighting only to make it worse and would also send his own Archons against the Dragon and pretend they are the agents of the Devourer who apparently is on the way distracting the Dragon to the fact the the Elder has gained a strong grip of the wheel and is syphoning more and more energy and growing larger and larger.

    Eventually the fighting gets so bad that the Dragon is forced to intervene as a Dragon against a large Vampire army about to ravage an undefended Hylden City Killing a large number of the Vampires within the air but also turning the whole race against themselves.

    This results in the Vampires deciding to use the 'Beasts' power to destroy their enemies and the story would end with the Dragon confronting the Elder but failing and ending up being caught in the tentacles and dragged to the ground where the Vampires use the Dragons power to form the Pillars out of their very bones!

    The game itself would need to be an open world large enough for a sizeable dragon to fly around and for two great civilisations to live within it and cities to be explored on foot and on the wing. I would propose some combat within the air mainly against the Elders Archons whom the Dragon would need to keep control of and maybe some demonic foes as the dimensions start to bled together due to the Vampires experiments. Combat on the ground would depend on the form, if in vampire form some low level flying would be needed again as they were all winged in this time. The Hylden form would be all on the ground. In both cases the weapon would be the Reavers claws shifted to form a sword however for the vampire form it would appear solid and the Hylden form would look more elemental but behave the same. The different forms would be for deception only, after all it would do no good for the Hylden form to brandish the same weapon as a member of the opposite race!

    The Dragon who becomes the pillars could have abilities from all 9 including mind control and telekinesis, the ability to switch between spectral and material and maybe even demon planes, shifting states etc. There could be times when you use the vampire form within a Hylden city to lure soldiers away from real vampire attacks or guarded doors and visa versa. Times when you fight beside a particular race to reclaim territory stolen by the other race.

    The final boss battle would be the Elder but there could be other bosses throughout the game mainly from the Elders minions but the most important of those would be against a creature the Elder claims in the Devourer but actually turns out to be the Mass of BO2 surviving only due to the Hylden capturing it after the Dragon defeats it.

    As I said it's a totally ridiculous idea but thought I would throw it in as it is a strange take on an origin story and it could be taken in a few directions. If the pillars are the Dragons bones their decay would have yet another added weight to them but with Kains refusal the binding on not only the Hylden but the dragon would also fade potentially resulting in a weakened version appearing in the future perhaps as the Seer if you made it female. Or even as something within Kain, the newly born Guardian bound to the Dragons soul when it was released and replaced by binding Ariel instead (remember the growl when the pillars crumbled in SR2). Kain passing on this soul to the Lieutenants results in the first of those Raziel gaining more in common with the Dragon than just wings and presents the Elder with a chance at last to destroy and consume the most powerful soul of Nosgoth!

    You could also make the Dragon male and then the Champions of the Vampire and Hylden race and them both carrying the Reaver in murals would have a new twist with the modern day Reaver Sword being in homage to their lost champion who was actually the Dragon they destroyed. That would be suitably dark for the world of Nosgoth!

    Wow I wrote a lot more than I thought I would, hope it makes sense!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inrezairo
    Hmm, am I free to throw in a completely ridiculous idea?

    Not just a new main character but a totally different beast altogether. The earliest games - Blood Omen in particular - featured imagery of Dragons. I'm going with the idea that the Elder is a false God that replaced another already within Nosgoth the whom I'll call the Reaver Dragon a creature that drew in the souls of the dead, recycling and dividing the energies before breathing them back out into the world to live, grow and return to the Dragon to once more be recycled and split to create even more life ala Wheel of Fate.

    The period in which it is set would begin with the Elders arrival to Nosgoth as a tiny, helpless looking thing claiming sanctuary. He would spin some lie about being expelled from his home by the Devourer of Worlds and beg the aid of the resident Wheel to let him borrow some of the energies of Nosgoth to regain his strength and return to defeat the Devourer.
    The Dragon by it's very nature due to the job it performs would be trusting and agree to share a tiny portion of the souls energies and the Elder is accepted and plants itself deep within the Earth out of 'fear from the Devourer' . Given the Elders already manipulative nature a skilled writer would have the material to be able to write this scene far more convincingly than I'm describing it.

    The story would continue right up to the creation of the pillars so the majority of the game play can take place during the War that the Elder started with his subtle whispers.
    Our poor Dragon would be oblivious to the Elders machinations but would notice the disagreements brewing between the Hylden and Vampires, however they would be unwilling to become involved as this would cause an entire race to turn against them, despite this they seek to calm tensions by going to both sides and thwarting attacks from the other side to stop a full scale War. They would do this by shifting from Reaver Dragon to a Hylden or Vampire form and fighting like a member of that race albeit a very strong version.

    The Elder would pretend to help pointing out the attacks and using the Dragon's attempts to quell the fighting only to make it worse and would also send his own Archons against the Dragon and pretend they are the agents of the Devourer who apparently is on the way distracting the Dragon to the fact the the Elder has gained a strong grip of the wheel and is syphoning more and more energy and growing larger and larger.

    Eventually the fighting gets so bad that the Dragon is forced to intervene as a Dragon against a large Vampire army about to ravage an undefended Hylden City Killing a large number of the Vampires within the air but also turning the whole race against themselves.

    This results in the Vampires deciding to use the 'Beasts' power to destroy their enemies and the story would end with the Dragon confronting the Elder but failing and ending up being caught in the tentacles and dragged to the ground where the Vampires use the Dragons power to form the Pillars out of their very bones!

    The game itself would need to be an open world large enough for a sizeable dragon to fly around and for two great civilisations to live within it and cities to be explored on foot and on the wing. I would propose some combat within the air mainly against the Elders Archons whom the Dragon would need to keep control of and maybe some demonic foes as the dimensions start to bled together due to the Vampires experiments. Combat on the ground would depend on the form, if in vampire form some low level flying would be needed again as they were all winged in this time. The Hylden form would be all on the ground. In both cases the weapon would be the Reavers claws shifted to form a sword however for the vampire form it would appear solid and the Hylden form would look more elemental but behave the same. The different forms would be for deception only, after all it would do no good for the Hylden form to brandish the same weapon as a member of the opposite race!

    The Dragon who becomes the pillars could have abilities from all 9 including mind control and telekinesis, the ability to switch between spectral and material and maybe even demon planes, shifting states etc. There could be times when you use the vampire form within a Hylden city to lure soldiers away from real vampire attacks or guarded doors and visa versa. Times when you fight beside a particular race to reclaim territory stolen by the other race.

    The final boss battle would be the Elder but there could be other bosses throughout the game mainly from the Elders minions but the most important of those would be against a creature the Elder claims in the Devourer but actually turns out to be the Mass of BO2 surviving only due to the Hylden capturing it after the Dragon defeats it.

    As I said it's a totally ridiculous idea but thought I would throw it in as it is a strange take on an origin story and it could be taken in a few directions. If the pillars are the Dragons bones their decay would have yet another added weight to them but with Kains refusal the binding on not only the Hylden but the dragon would also fade potentially resulting in a weakened version appearing in the future perhaps as the Seer if you made it female. Or even as something within Kain, the newly born Guardian bound to the Dragons soul when it was released and replaced by binding Ariel instead (remember the growl when the pillars crumbled in SR2). Kain passing on this soul to the Lieutenants results in the first of those Raziel gaining more in common with the Dragon than just wings and presents the Elder with a chance at last to destroy and consume the most powerful soul of Nosgoth!

    You could also make the Dragon male and then the Champions of the Vampire and Hylden race and them both carrying the Reaver in murals would have a new twist with the modern day Reaver Sword being in homage to their lost champion who was actually the Dragon they destroyed. That would be suitably dark for the world of Nosgoth!

    Wow I wrote a lot more than I thought I would, hope it makes sense!
    Well, I think the idea of working in a larger mythos might need to happen to develop the plot beyond its present point. Not sure about dragons as an idea, but some people might like it . If dragons were completely and utterly re-vamped Legacy of Kain style I would be more in favour. I always wondered what the Pillars were made from exactly.

  23. #48
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    Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 2 say the Pillars are made of white marble and "other indescribable materials".
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  24. #49
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    The story starts with a completely new character, as required, not a vampire or hylden, but a human. Initially, the character (who I won't name, as I'm horrid with names) is simply a very skilled warrior in the original BO1 era. The opening would have him meet with young Kain, on his quest to kill the other Guardians, where he "saves" Kain from a group of werewolves, never realizing Kain was actually a vampire. Kain briefly considers killing him (or her, if you want to do something especially different), but ultimately decides it's not worth it, and resumes his journey to kill the Guardians. Later, the pillars collapse, and the character sees it as it's happening. Shortly after, he witnesses a group of Hylden appear, now that the barrier is weakened. All across Nosgoth, similar small groups are appearing, scattering into hiding to await their chance to act later, during the BO2 era. Seeing these monstrous demons, he attacks them. With his skill, he manages to take down a few, but is ultimately injured and left for dead.

    At this point, Elder Kain, freshly purified and flush with victory over the Elder God, finds him. After a moment, he remembers the character, their armor or appearance being distinct enough to stand out.

    With his mind purified, he decides perhaps it's time to start something new, and aids the character in recovering from their injuries. The Pillars are damaged, and need to be restored, but Kain has his own tasks to accomplish. He explains some of the situation to the character, and sets him on a journey to help restore the Pillars.

    From here, I'm not sure what happens. Some plot elements that I think could be featured in the game, and explained over it's story: Kain, as the Scion of Balance, is outside the normal rules, and beyond the Elder God's control. Able to see and even harm the Elder God, he can rewrite history without creating paradoxes, and can in fact break the cycles that the Elder God has trapped Kain and Raziel in. This will ultimately lead to restoring the Pillars (something that has been impossible before), bringing balance back to Nosgoth and making the wasteland future of Soul Reaver an impossibility. As each Pillar is restored, Kain revives one of his Sons, and using his station as the purified Balance Guardian and Scion of Balance, places the now purified Sons as the new Guardians of six of the 8 remaining Pillars. The character will become one of the Guardians as well, and one other character, either a recurring one or a new one (probably a recurring one), becomes the final Guardian. With the Pillars thus restored, all that's left is to deal with the EG. The two non-vampire Guardians are turned by Kain as well. As a possible concept, all of the children of Kain (both turned and revived) gain the traits of the Ancient Vampires, rather than those of the more modern vampires, no longer suffering from the Hylden's curse (Kain himself is also cured, and may even take on the form of the Ancient Vampires before the end).

    Going back to the character though, they would probably be turned close to half-way through the game, maybe a bit later (or earlier, if necessary), whenever they activate whatever Pillar becomes theirs.

    The gameplay would mostly be similar to the classic Soul Reaver (go where you want, as long as you've got what you need to get there) feel. You need to figure out how to restore each Pillar, and go about doing it, which could lead you all over Nosgoth. At the start, you're just a normal human, so many of the supernatural threats in the game pose enough of a threat that you have to be careful sometimes, and you could face everything from bandits, to werewolves, to Hylden, to some of the Elder God's minions. As you take actions throughout the game, perhaps you are also determining which Pillar you will ultimately be bound to as well, so the choices you make can influence the Pillar that chooses you.

    Anyway, that's all the ideas I've got so far. If I come up with more, I'll edit this post with them.

  25. #50
    Wow, what an assorted collection of ideas!

    It's hard to comment on all of them because there's so many, but I'll give some thoughts.

    I like the idea of reintroducing an already established character from one of the games with a new viewpoint/goal (such as Malek, Vorador or William the Just as some of you have mentioned) as it's a clean and easy way to get new players to get in their character's head even without knowing all of the wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey ... stuff.

    The idea of William the Just stands out to me in particular because it picks up on a very interesting theme which was only touched on in Blood Omen, about William growing up to one day become the Nemesis. The character also stands out as a possible protagonist because, like with both Raziel and Kain, William wields the Soul Reaver. This idea strays away from my original thoughts that the game would play like Soul Reaver/Assassin's Creed, instead becoming perhaps more like either The Witcher 2 or Skyrim with William himself being purely a human character (albeit a very skillful human warrior).

    'Legacy of Kain: Nemesis' could be a good working title! Although I expect it would be changed in order to distance itself from Resident Evil 3 (as well as that terrible Star Trek movie of the same name...). The game would be designed to be stand-alone much like the plan for the original Soul Reaver and - whilst the characters would not travel in time - time travellers from the future (such as Kain) would appear.

    As for introducing no new paradoxes? I think - after ten years - we've had enough of a break to warrant their potential inclusion in a new game (since to an extent, the series revolves around time-travel). However I suspect Square-Enix would lean more towards an open-world game without time-travel elements akin to Soul Reaver, which I'd be happy with too. That said, like with anything which leans into quantum theory - I suspect that there are many other possible timelines at play within the Legacy of Kain universe that we have yet seen. It might be a clever way to do a new game without negating the previous canon (kind of like JJ Abrams' Star Trek)

    William as a playable character in an alternate but similar timeline to Blood Omen where he would still grow up to become the Nemesis would create some interesting conflicts in a new game, particularly if William the playable character discovers his ultimate fate as a conquering tyrant after either stumbling into an ancient Chronoplast chamber (and seeing visions of the future much like Raziel did during his descent into the bowels of the time machine). Surely William could try his absolute best to avert his fate, thus trying to change history without traveling through time. Of course, the mere event of him discovering such a time machine would change history in itself even though he would not have the knowledge to activate it. Would it be enough to completely rework the history of William's future though?

    William discovers that, because he has discovered the Chronoplast, dark forces have noticed and are rallying their agents to get rid of him.

    Maybe William's discovery was the orchestration of a higher power finally trying to bring stability to Nosgoth. This alternate timeline would give the devs a chance to recreate the character of William as a playable protagonist. There could even be a degree of customisation too, in terms of hairstyles and armours.

    I'm seeing that lots of assassins could pop up occasionally to kill William too throughout the game, and in a plot twist it would be revealed that Kain himself (from the future) has actually plotted out William's assassination but refuses to kill William himself, knowing that this would ignite the wrath of the vampire hunters in the future and lead to the genocide of the vampires. Kain admits in Soul Reaver 2 that he feels a responsibility to keep the vampire race from extinction (which is partly why he refused the sacrifice at the end of Blood Omen), being one of the very last himself, although I feel he would want them to turn out differently than they had in the Soul Reaver era (which was due to his own recklessness). By having humans, or demons, or something else, kill William then the blame would be placed on one of them, saving the vampires from the persecution of the Sarafan.

    With the fate of the vampire race safely restored, Kain could finally be at peace sacrificing himself and restore Balance to Nosgoth. Kain's death would lead to the random selection of new guardians in the future, although what future would be created as a result of the endurance of the vampires is anyone's guess (it'd be fun to speculate though )

    That said, I wouldn't want the ending to be that clean cut. William would most certainly put up a fight for his own survival against Kain's agents and the Elder God itself would probably be moving new pawns into play to keep Kain's assassins at bay. Keep William alive just long enough to have young Kain (from Blood Omen) kill him has always worked in the Elder God's favour, as it would lead to the almost complete obliteration of the vampire race.

    William interests me in this way as a protagonist because, in the chaos of everything that it happening to him, the player would be discovering all of these things as he himself is - which is kind of exciting. He is discovering that, as with the previous games in the series (as a consequence of his fate being out of his hands) he is stuck in the middle of war for his own head.

    In a word, surprisingly - I really like idea

    PS. That dragon one was crazy-wacky, but I loved the idea that there was a force out there that even the Elder God was trying to get away from. It's something I would definitely try and work into the Nemesis idea.

    EDIT: Thinking about it and how ambitious you could be - there could even be THREE protagonists with three separate paths to take across the land, but all interconnected. You would have William the human, Kain the vampire (from the future Nosgoth) and a so-far unnamed servant of the Elder God (a new spectral character). The goals of Kain and the Elder's servant would be the opposite, with Kain trying to orchestrate William's assassination and the Elder's servant orchestrating the opposite. William, meanwhile, stuck in the middle of this - is simply trying to survive.

    It may seem massively ambitious but since it'll likely never happen, we've seen how a three-character-switch system works in other games (such as Grand Theft Auto V). The span of the world remains the same but the character, whilst being played, cannot interact with each other unless on story missions. There would also be areas exclusive to each character, such as the Chronoplast for William, the Spectral Realm for the Elder's servant and ... somewhere else for Kain ...
    Last edited by mappalazarou; 26th Feb 2014 at 16:18.
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