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Thread: [MAJOR SERIES SPOILERS] Legacy of Kain VI: What would you do?

  1. #226
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    Kain and Moebius at the beginning of Defiance:

    Kain:
    Yet Raziel retains his free will. And that's what frightens you, isn't it, Moebius? You cannot see his path, and so you cannot control it.

    Moebius:
    And neither can you. Yes, Raziel is shrouded from us, but we see the ripples of his potential actions. And every path he might choose leads to the same outcome: he will kill you, Kain. In sparing Raziel, you have written your own death sentence.


    The theory on this, which I subscribe to: since the paradox at the end of SR2 where Raziel was saved by Kain from entering the sword, Defiance's events are very much happening while time is still not fully settled. Kain notes that the "coin is still turning," meaning that nothing is fully set yet. Raziel's actions aren't fully visible to Moebius, and as he says "us," so he means also the EG. Moebius and the EG think that they've seen all the possible outcomes and that they all lead to Kain being dead, but it seams that they missed one, or two. Raziel and his potential actions being shrouded in these moments, which intern means Kain still being alive after their encounter, fit with the dialogue. It was also confirmed that Kain did not gain free will after their encounter. Time really shouldn't be fully settled until Raziel goes into the sword, as he was intended to in the past. Even if the EG exists in all time periods simultaneously, this one would be like having a multi-verse of him all existing at once. He probably cannot fully discern these events and which reality is the true one.

    Raziel is simultaneously both champions. The battle depicted where either the vampire champion wins, or the Hylden one does, is a manifestation his own internal struggle and ability to choose. Kain's mural as the Scion of Balance is between them at the end. He was never foretold to be killed by Raziel in the Ancients' prophecies.

  2. #227
    Y'know, whoever serves as prophet to the Ancients and Hylden did a really lousy job...

    What is the vampire champion even prophesied to do? I mean, Raziel revived Janos for the Hylden but all he's done for vampires is armed Kain to kill their god.

    We need a game about the Hylden. Pre-banishment, maybe. With the series' penchant for gray moral areas, it bugs me that the Hylden so far have just been painted as victims of a bunch of Squid Jesus freaks.

    Or post-banishment with a few turning on their own for sanity's sake and helping Kain out with the blood curse.

  3. #228
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    You guys should really do the dedicated LoK forum a favour and take this discussion and questions about the storyline over there, IMO. It's a dead zone right now, but clearly not for lack of interest in the series and its plot.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  4. #229
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    I felt it might be best to continue this on the proper thread.

    RECAP


    Even after Kain restores the Pillars, they won't yet be ready to lock because they are only fully restored once their guardians have risen to assume their roles. So there will be a period of time where Kain will have to be waiting for the new guardians to grow up. Perhaps Kain snatches them all up while they're young to ensure they don't get deceived as Mobius and Mortanius were. Picture Vorador stamping out a human assault on the sanctuary and coming to learn it was in response to Kain abducting their children; and after dismissing these claims, discovering that Kain did take the children. Then Vorador discovers what they are and learns that Kain's intentions are to raise them under either his or Vorador's mentorship.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 24th Nov 2015 at 21:39.

  5. #230
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    How Janos knew of Kain was never explained,
    There were several murals of Scion of Balance throughout the Ancient´s ruins.

    Kain then proceeds to rip out Janos' still beating heart. Vorador demands an explanation for this defilement; and Kain reveals that the only reason Vorador would have the Heart of Darkness now, is if that is how he was ressurrected in the past.
    What did I just read?

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainaAudron View Post
    There were several murals of Scion of Balance throughout the Ancient´s ruins.
    I don't remember any of them showing much of a likeness to Kain, unless I missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RainaAudron View Post
    What did I just read?
    A possible way to explain how Vorador was resurrected after being beheaded at the end of Blood Omen, in the timeline of Defiance. After this event Elder Kain takes the heart back in time with him one last time, shortly after Vorador's execution and uses the heart to resurrect him.

  7. #232
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    As the elder says when they hone in on this image in the Defiance cinematic: "It was Kain's destiny that mattered all along."


    (click image to enlarge)

    Hard to miss the white hair, features, and the wings in the shape of his very clan symbol.

    The full "Scion of Balance" mural:


    (click image to enlarge)

    With the vampire and Hylden champions' dual fate on either side. The same reason Janos knows Raziel without meeting him in SR2 is why he knows Kain. Actually, it's more than that. Raziel was, as Janos thought, the vampire champion foretold in the murals. Kain was the Scion of Balance. However, by the time Kain finds Janos in BO2, this is centuries after Janos has been imprisoned by the Hylden and getting news of the events of the day, including, as he mentions, Kain's damning of the Pillars. He doesn't even need the murals to know who Kain is, because he's alive at the time Kain exists.

    Having Kain kill Janos to get the heart and return it to Vorador in the past... You're creating way, way too convoluted an explanation with that. We already have the Soul Reaver to deal with in how it winds up popping around in time with multiple versions and how it has to get back in Avernus. The heart, vicariously with Kain, did so to a degree once already with Defiance's big reveal. Having a second reveal, cheapens the first.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 26th Nov 2015 at 03:45.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenFeelGood View Post
    I don't remember any of them showing much of a likeness to Kain, unless I missed it.
    What´s this then? (+ the one Hylden posted)



    (click image to enlarge)

    A possible way to explain how Vorador was resurrected after being beheaded at the end of Blood Omen, in the timeline of Defiance. After this event Elder Kain takes the heart back in time with him one last time, shortly after Vorador's execution and uses the heart to resurrect him.
    Ugh, no. I´d prefer no explanation at all than this.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 26th Nov 2015 at 02:03. Reason: image fixes

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Hylden View Post
    As the elder says when they home in on this image in the Defiance cinematic: "It was Kain's destiny that mattered all along."


    (click image to enlarge)

    Hard to miss the white hair, features, and the wings in the shape of his very clan symbol.

    The full "Scion of Balance" mural:


    (click image to enlarge)

    With the vampire and Hylden champions' dual fate on either side. The same reason Janos knows Raziel without meeting him in SR2 is why he knows Kain. Actually, it's more than that. Raziel was, as Janos thought, the vampire champion foretold in the murals. Kain was the Scion of Balance. However, by the time Kain finds Janos in BO2, this is centuries after Janos has been imprisoned by the Hylden and getting news of the events of the day, including, as he mentions, Kain's damning of the Pillars. He doesn't even need the murals to know who Kain is, because he's alive at the time Kain exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by RainaAudron View Post
    What´s this then? (+ the one Hylden posted)



    (click image to enlarge)
    I concede to both of you on this. I kick myself for missing Kain's mark; and I can't believe I confused the white hair for a white glow, honest mistake. Where was that first image from Raina, I'd like to go back in the game and see it. I thank both of you for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Hylden View Post
    Having Kain kill Janos to get the heart and return it to Vorador in the past... You're creating way, way too convoluted an explanation with that. We already have the Soul Reaver to deal with in how it winds up popping around in time with multiple versions and how it has to get back in Avernus. The heart, vicariously with Kain, did so to a degree once already with Defiance's big reveal. Having a second reveal, cheapens the first.
    I'll admit that it seems that way but honestly that is what I have always loved about the LoK narrative. Figuring out all the twists and turns is what keeps it engaging for me after all this time.

    Maybe it does cheapen what happened in Defiance; but how else could Vorador be alive? He did die but somehow comes back; and the only thing known to bring back a vampire that has been killed is the Heart of Darkness.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 25th Nov 2015 at 04:42.

  10. #235
    Not really. Vorador is very old, very powerful vampire, his spirit attatched to his body with really strong bond- i imagine, one could say, crude "putting him back together", and using Soul Reaver power could jump-start him again look what happened to Janos, when Raziel put his hand on him

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenFeelGood View Post
    Where was that first image from Raina, I'd like to go back in the game and see it.
    It's in the Soul Reaver 2 Dark Forge, hidden in the shadows at the top of the activation chamber. The extracted texture there is probably the clearest view of it due to the lighting etc.
    You can find it behind the crystal in this shot:

    (click image to enlarge)
    Last edited by Bazielim; 25th Nov 2015 at 19:45. Reason: image fixes
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  12. #237
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    They were going to explain Kain resurrecting Vorador first in Defiance, which got cut, and then in the cut Dark Prophecy. However, it could have easily have been Janos doing it when he teleported away for no reason at the Citadel. Raziel returns from the Spirit Forge and he's back again.

    Heh, that mural must have been lit so dark, Raziel couldn't even see it. You'd think he would have commented on it otherwise

    Edit: Incidentally, after thinking about this a lot more since Lord Aevum first posted the suggestion, I do believe this belongs over in the LoK forums. The thread has evolved into a huge amount of LoK spoilers, so while that might not interest some of the casual Nosgoth fans, it might very well turn off those who do play Nosgoth and might find a desire to check out the series.

    I've also added the spoiler warning to the title of the thread.

    Anyway, carry on.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 26th Nov 2015 at 03:54.

  13. #238
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    ha, moving the topic to here killed it.

    um... how would Heart of Darkness be used to raise Vorador ^ when it's already in Janos to raise Janos?

    back to game ideas-----

    1.
    Elder's Empire

    Play as EG as he walks (or squirms) along the path to godhood.
    done in the style of those "build an empire" games, only set in the spectral realm.

    follow the entire history of Elder's growth & rise to power. his origins story. then conquer, attaching ever more soul-feeding tributaries to yourself, see your gross form expand and toughen (or see these expansions severed if another human player beats you), weed out other sluagh who are growing into something more (get rid of rivals before they bulk up and join you in the god-like range of power, because after that happens you'll have to put yourself at risk to boss-fight them directly to end the threat. Better to nip them in the bud first by dispatching units of archons to do your bidding. Time flies by in spectral, so you'd get to interact with all characters and eras including those from cancelled games and distant past & future eras no game even dared to show us before. (includes a quick look at many settings, some of which can then be expanded on by later games).

    Also, from Elder's point-of-view you'd learn the real reason why hylden and then vampires needed to be put down: any being who lives long enough starts to develop a sixth sense that alerts them to "the real enemy." As immortal hyldens & cursed vamps grew in power, they neared the threshold of godlike senses and powers. You'd need to send your avatars into the material realm to kill individual immortals before they evolved into eternals like you. And with the centuries speeding by, these threats would come at you "fast." It'd take a juggling act of your resources to keep from being overwhelmed, similar to Tetris raining down challenges on you. That's why it's important to pacify the souls as they pass through the wheel, it slows their evolution so you only have to worry about the apostates who refuse to die. Raziel wasn't the first of EG's death angel avatars to be set loose on the world, he's just the most empowered one ever, tasked with wiping out an entire species. So that required an extra gamble of lending him enough power that could potentially hurt a god..... ooops! But EG's other avatars didn't turn against him & things went smoothly as they carried out their missions without any complications....which is why we've never heard of them. Their successes gave Elder his overconfidence. (One of the earlier successes was killing off the original vampire Pillar Guardians who were wising up about what their god really was.)


    2.
    Nemesis World

    A "straight up" telling of William the Just's story, playing as him, following the Blood Omen questline of conquering the world. Only we'd learn WHY MOBIUS NEEDED TO CHANGE HISTORY: until Moe & Elder prevented it from happening, William's destiny was to take over the world of man, yes, and then..... Vorador (who'd still be alive to do it) was meant to use that opportunity to turn William. After the Nemesis had done all the hard work of uniting the world, Vorador would make William into a vampire hero, perhaps THE vampire hero, who'd rule the world and vampify it from the top down. (Sorry Raz, what you had was schitzophrenia, you weren't really "both heroes." You were neither hero, rather you were an all-important sword who had trouble making a decision.)

    So Moe's initial paradox in BO1 deleted the true vampire hero from history, but now Elder Kain is back to restore the true fate of vampires. What if Elder Kain kidnaps William the Just as soon as Will is given the Soul Reaver by Moebius? In that paradoxical moment it's possible. He makes Will his apprentice instead of playing out the fight. (That's right, it's a buddy movie.) The anti-vampire changes never sweep through history (Moe's "false histories" are defeated) and we have a new human protagonist wielding a soul reaver, and Kain gives him a time-streaming device as part of his training! After Mobius is totally dead in Defiance, Kain (as Balance) has "the rights" to tap into the vacant time pillar and craft a device that locks Mobius out, so even if they go back to when Moe lives Moe's powers can't be used to track William. It's a cloaking device, mainly so we don't have to put up with Moebius again. And they're mostly not travelling to Moe's era anyway..... further back, maybe, and further into the future. --> So even though William is only destined to hold the soul reaver a brief time, we can get a lot of mileage out of that "moment" by stretching it out along the whole timeline.

    Another time travel saga, this one featuring William standing up for humans as their champion and forcing Kain to rethink some things about how humans should be treated in the Post-Fix Nosgoth. Kain finds it easier to listen to a Reaver-armed speaker. During Will's travels Kain can show up to instruct William at key moments and whenever Kain shows up there's two Soul Reavers present and things can be improved instead of the dead-end it seemed to be. So the BO1 paradox fight (and its anti-vampire historical changes) is replaced with a new set of pro-Nosgoth changes that improve things for both humans and vampires, since both species now have a voice (reaver). And Elder is herded by their swords, to avoid suffering the "impossible" defeats those reaver boys can serve up. Kain grows fluent in creating bursts of free will. The kill box closes around EG. Elder goes into survival mode then & hits them with his full power augmented by ancient machines, etc. Team Free Will doesn't have enough in the tank, it turns out! It's a stalemate again.... until Kain realizes this is why Elder made sure to separate Hylden & Vampires so long ago. If the hylden's species-empowered gem object is added to the fire as well, their combined powers would be greater than ElderGod's. Kain looks at the Binding. Looks back at EG. Looks back at the Binding. Oh yeah, baby, we're going there! To Hell for the win!
    Last edited by diuqSehT; 28th Apr 2016 at 05:44.

  14. #239
    I don't think there's any real need to explain Vorador's resurrection. He's a vampire, they're kind of famous for coming back from the dead. His head ends up on a statue 100 years after BO1, so maybe it just took Young Kain that long to find it and put him back together again.

    My preferred LOK VI: Kain goes back to the future. The decapitated vampire clans don't acknowledge him, the Hylden and demons are back, and the humans have seized the opportunity to claw out a bigger foothold for themselves. Somewhere involved is the Elder behind the scenes, Kain has to reconquer Nosgoth and deal with it.

    If it really has to be a different character, I'd do basically the same plot with that character.

    Defiance did a brilliant job of tying up most important loose ends, I don't think there's much continuity to worry about. Just advertise it under a new title, something like Legacy of Kain: Bitter Illusion. You don't have to worry about the past, no need to mention Raziel or Moebius (except in optional text of 'the story so far'), just have Kain emerge from the Chronoplast chamber (or even a Cocoon) with a monologue along the lines of 'Once, I ruled this land, but my empire decayed and I withdrew from it. This time, I would not repeat my mistakes.' The only major twist left is how to get the Reaver into Moebius' hands, which could be as simple as dropping it on the ground in Avernus.

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