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Thread: [MAJOR SERIES SPOILERS] Legacy of Kain VI: What would you do?

  1. #1

    Big Grin [MAJOR SERIES SPOILERS] Legacy of Kain VI: What would you do?

    Let's say that Nosgoth becomes the success we all want it to be, which catches the eye of the high execs of Square-Enix, who suddenly decide to move ahead with a new next-gen single player adventure.

    They stick to their original rule that the game 'must be a distant continuation and follow a new character', but then suddenly decide to hand the rest of the creative control over to you.

    Can you give a brief synopsis of what your story would be?

    Who would be the new main character/villain?

    How would Kain feature?

    What time period(s) would you set it in?

    What would the gameplay be like?


    I'll start, although I haven't come up with a good story or any characters!

    - I'd have Kain as a secondary character
    - The time period would be limited to one, like in Soul Reaver, so as to give the world a larger scale
    - I'd mix up the gameplay to be like a combination of Soul Reaver and Assassin's Creed, where you must navigate the world through exploration rather than being told by the game where to go
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 26th Nov 2015 at 03:50.
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    first timeline(begining of BO1), before Kain's rebirth, top-down(yes, BO1!!)(or not...), partially free roaming - player allowed to explore further only after getting some new tool/power(you know what i want to write here ;D ), not much equipment, but each piece must be different. like, equipment's primary difference must not be it's quality, but in some additional benefits. social elements must be stronk! like, roleplay elements should not be limited to your choice of equipment and murder must not be your primary source of entertaining, although it should be a possibility to make it so. also, quests. not all of them must bring you a material reward for completion. some must make you feel better for your character: like helping poor and weak, not always getting noted and sometimes even be accused of all the crimes in the world instead of getting atl east a bit of gratitude. because you are a vampire and you murder people and suck their veins dry. or do you?..

    i was thinking about how does one becomes a vampire and is it possible for a... fledgling to be out of vampire society. like, somebody gets bitten, introduced to their new for, of being, then, for some reason, left alone where he was living, say, in one of the villages.

    Kain might be shown as a noble, who is being met by strange people with prophecies and visions of a darker future, so he's planning on leaving his city, partially from fear of prophecies starting to fulfill and partially from curiosity to find out the meaning of all this.

    story? something about fate, something about the whole Elder Squid's plot, about being manipulated and trying to act on your own, but being unable to... maybe we might place that Soul Reaver in Heavens for Kain ;D oh, and some stuff about self-determination as a vampire out of vampire society. but this should probably go to side quests.
    Last edited by Violet-n-red; 27th Jan 2014 at 09:06.
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  3. #3
    to be honest I did not like the idea of a new character with the dead sun project.
    although I do appreciate the idea that it was going to be an open world action RPG AKA (the zelda clone)
    there were to many things that did not fit the lore or the franchise itself.

    aside from that, I think L.O.K 6 should ether be a:

    Blood omen 3. where Kain kills the elder god (no disrespect to Tony jay)
    and returns the soul reaver to avernus for young Kain to find and then return to nosgoths waste land.

    soul reaver 3 where Raziel gets resurrected during the event when Kain shattered the blade in soul reaver 1.
    (if Ariel got resurrected so can Raziel) there should be like a hollow piece engraved on Raziels chest to abdomen in the shape of the soul reaver to symbolized that he is missing part of his soul or something. (kain shattering the blade could of stopped time for a breaf moment for resserected raziel to leave un-noticed) Raziel could then kill Kain when Kain returns to nosgoth's wasteland (Kain has been stringing Raziel all the way through defiance just to absolve himself from the pillars curse) and then Raziel can then challenge the Hylden (the Hylden Lord in BO2 told Kain he wouldn't live long enough to see the Hylden return)

    or we can do a spin off playing as Vorador:
    it could be during his human years entering his vampiric curse. it can also give a different perspective of what happened during the war between the ancient vampire and Hylden

    ps. doing a defiance 2 just for complete closure is just lazy.
    that would also mean completely ending the franchise when there could be other ways of making more games.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Chulo86 View Post
    soul reaver 3 where Raziel gets resurrected during the event when Kain shattered the blade in soul reaver 1.
    (if Ariel got resurrected so can Raziel) there should be like a hollow piece engraved on Raziels chest to abdomen in the shape of the soul reaver to symbolized that he is missing part of his soul or something. (kain shattering the blade could of stopped time for a breaf moment for resserected raziel to leave un-noticed) Raziel could then kill Kain when Kain returns to nosgoth's wasteland (Kain has been stringing Raziel all the way through defiance just to absolve himself from the pillars curse) and then Raziel can then challenge the Hylden (the Hylden Lord in BO2 told Kain he wouldn't live long enough to see the Hylden return) .
    Huh? Raziel was only resurrected twice. Once by Kain and the second time when he emerged from the abyss as a wraith.

    When Kain smashes the Soul Reaver over Raziel, it's simply releasing a future version of Raziel's soul in the form of the wraith blade. If that future soul had become a sentient walking-around Raziel again, it wouldn't have attached itself to it's younger self's arm.

    If you're saying Raziel's soul was split in two and only half became the wraith blade, it could possibly work since soul-splitting can be done as Kain did with his own. However, it would still cheapen Raziel's sacrifice in Defiance. Amy insisted that she didn't want to bring Raziel back for that reason.

    Personally, I'd either just try to do Dark Prophecy or have the main character be either Lieutenant Raziel as a newly raised vampire or have Turel become a time hopping (reluctant) servant of Azimuth and the hylden.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 27th Jan 2014 at 12:27.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chulo86 View Post
    ps. doing a defiance 2 just for complete closure is just lazy.
    that would also mean completely ending the franchise when there could be other ways of making more games.
    ending will probably show the final demise of the elder and that's all - everything else can be streamed in any possible direction. return of vampires, hyldens, elder vampires, soul leeching vampires, instant restoration of everything, time distortion, merging of worlds...
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    I'd be happy to take anything at all as long as Kain is still involved in the story. I agree he shouldn't necessarily be playable, but he's added so much to the games as an NPC as well and it would be bizarre for him to stop appearing in his own series altogether.

    Kick him forward to the Soul Reaver era to battle the Elder and restore the Pillars as was originally intended. Kick him backward to the vampire-Hylden war and expand on that vague story. Fabulous. Neither of these precludes new heroes nor demands that tomes of complex backstory are conveyed to the player, any more than Soul Reaver ever did.

    I really liked the rumoured idea for The Dark Prophecy about alternating between young and elder Kain. I had a thought that maybe the series' shifting mechanics could be preserved and updated in such a form: actively shifting between the two Kains in their distinct time periods to solve co-dependent puzzles, rather than moving between their independent stories in the usual linear chapter format.

    The wraith Raziel is finished with, and retconning him back into the story would feel unnecessary and cheap no matter how it's done.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum View Post
    I'd be happy to take anything at all as long as Kain is still involved in the story. I agree he shouldn't necessarily be playable, but he's added so much to the games as an NPC as well and it would be bizarre for him to stop appearing in his own series altogether.

    Kick him forward to the Soul Reaver era to battle the Elder and restore the Pillars as was originally intended. Kick him backward to the vampire-Hylden war and expand on that vague story. Fabulous. Neither of these precludes new heroes nor demands that tomes of complex backstory are conveyed to the player, any more than Soul Reaver ever did.

    I really liked the rumoured idea for The Dark Prophecy about alternating between young and elder Kain. I had a thought that maybe the series' shifting mechanics could be preserved and updated in such a form: actively shifting between the two Kains in their distinct time periods to solve co-dependent puzzles, rather than moving between their independent stories in the usual linear chapter format.

    The wraith Raziel is finished with, and retconning him back into the story would feel unnecessary and cheap no matter how it's done.
    Agreed. And thanks for being the only post so far to stick to the rules in the OP!

    I like to see some explanation about the Elder God was able to transcend time as back in Soul Reaver 2, he confronts Raziel whilst maintaining his knowledge of the events of Soul Reaver 1 despite being in an earlier point in the timeline.
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    I'd nod and agree with their "rule," then actually make a game continuing Kain's story with him as the protagonist (the way it should be) anyway

    Which is probably another reason why I won't be called to make the game, heh, among a host of other reasons.

  9. #9
    I forgot to mention that Moderators transcend the rules
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    Hmm...personally:

    - Wouldn't really like to see Raziel raised. As is said - he's kind of done. Maybe if elder Kain performed some kind of attack with the Soul Reaver and the shadow he cast looked like Raziel or something, that might be quite cool. Some kind of hints of his presence would be cool, but any actual return would suck imo.

    - Villians...The EG is the obvious choice. But then again the Hylden kind of need some sorting out - however Kain (if he was a protagonist) would be better served by trying to get them on side against the EG, or at least some of them. However they've gone awful bitter since they got locked out of Nosgoth, so I don't know how that would happen. Maybe if they wanted something he had - some kind of dark bargain.

    Think it might be better to scratch all that for now and focus on someone else....

    XD Maybe I'd do a game about Malek. There's a few discrepancies in BO, like for instance his body turning up twice, as well as his wraith status. However, his token was clearly returned to the Pillars. However, maybe when Kain refused the sacrifice, his spirit went shimmying off somewhere? Or maybe EG would somehow raise him and try and get him to kill Elder Kain or younger Kain? Might be quite a hard character to fit in without causing contradictions. Out of the Guardians, he was one of the more interesting ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violet-n-red
    Kain might be shown as a noble, who is being met by strange people with prophecies and visions of a darker future, so he's planning on leaving his city, partially from fear of prophecies starting to fulfill and partially from curiosity to find out the meaning of all this.
    You could have some post Defiance game with a some people trying to kill pre-vampire Kain, but they take some huge risks in changing history by doing it.

    Anyway here's a rather a foolish plot outline, not necessarily something I'd consider worthy of a game, but here goes:

    So, when Older Kain fights the EG at the end of Defiance, he is unable to kill him. However, the damage done to EG, caused some very partial release of his control of the Wheel of Fate, and some of the souls his archons were harvesting were set loose. This included Malek's soul, who was able to perpetuate in the spectral realm longer before returning to the wheel like human souls do (I think?), due to him already being a kind of wraith. Somehow Malek's soul managed to re-assert itself in the spectral realm (chapter 1), evading the archons, but not being able to kill them. Malek then managed to return to the Pillars, Younger Kain having refused the sacrifice. He manages to re-enter his armour going back into the Material Realm, but he finds that he no longer has a role as conflict guardian as the Pillars are destroyed (hopefully to be restored by Kain later). He decides to go back to his Bastion and mope. (Chapter 2) There he sees Older Kain (who was planning to go to Malek's Bastion in Dark Prophesy, was he not?) and ambushes him, but realises that Older Kain is way too bad-ass now, plus he has the Soul Reaver. Kain is in no rush to deal with Malek, who he thinks is pathetic, and decides to ask him a few questions, one of which is why his body existed both in Avenus, as well as within the Bastion itself. Malek doesn't answer, (because he doesn't know), and outmatched has to flee (reversing what happened in BO).

    (Chapter 3) Malek goes to Avernus, and finds his corpse in the chaos of the cathedral, having to fight through the crazed cenobites, demons, etc. He manages to find his body in the Hell realm of the cathedral, after entering a portal. It is then he comes across an extra dimensional version of Azimuth, who basically tells him that in this reality, the reason he was fused to his armour, was that it was punishment for becoming a vampire. Malek is quite offended by this notion, and kills extra dimensional Azimuth. In this version of reality, the Pillars are subsequently restored, as Kain had lived and died as a normal human guardian, and Azmuth was the last Guardian standing, having running an extra-dimensional Hash'ak'gik cult and killed all the other Guardians. (chapter 4) Malek is subsequently treated like a hero. He learns about a sorcerer who can give him a new body in this reality called Elzevir, and so he sets off to find him....however on the way he discovers that this reality's version of Malek was tricked into becoming a vampire by extra-dimensional Moebius, who used this transgression as an example of how pernicious the vampire threat was. Malek can't kill this version of Moebius as he is already dead. (chapter 5) Malek meets Elzevir, who asks him to complete a variety of depraved tasks for him, then announces he can give him a new body, but it won't be immortal. At this point the player can decide to stay in this version of reality as mortal (and not so powerful) Malek and fight the Hylden, who have managed to get a foothold somehow, or they can go back to the familiar Nosgoth as an immortal "wraith" Malek, who follows a different plot path involving Kain etc.

    The main themes of the game would be Malek realising he can move on from his role as a Pillar Guardian, but at the same time realising that getting his body back comes with a price. He also becomes more morally relative in the game (although that kind of this has been done in the series before).
    Last edited by Sluagh; 28th Jan 2014 at 16:33.

  11. #11
    Please no more paradoxes. They aren't the solution to everything and are by definition contradictions.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Please no more paradoxes. They aren't the solution to everything and are by definition contradictions.
    Yah I'm tempted to think they could cut out paradoxes. There's enough left to milk out of the ones already existing.
    Last edited by Sluagh; 28th Jan 2014 at 18:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Hylden View Post
    I'd nod and agree with their "rule," then actually make a game continuing Kain's story with him as the protagonist (the way it should be) anyway
    No doubt about it. Somebody new is an option, but it's a little hard to see why this should be an ironclad rule imposed on teams. I mean, what's the problem with using Kain going forward in Kain's own series. It's not like there are any limitations whatsoever associated with him to prevent him from appearing ever again; he's an evolving immortal with a time machine.

    You have an amazing, revolutionary character sitting right there, just waiting to be used, rather than reinventing the wheel. Maybe there is a lack of confidence in being able to do him justice, or something?

  15. #15
    A lot of the time I try to suggest ways of continuing the series that I think are most likely to be made. The concern is that that those in charge of deciding whether to continue it might not want to risk the huge amount of backstory scaring new players off. Viewing Kain from another character's perspective might be easier on them because the new character would be learning about Kain along with the player.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    No doubt about it. Somebody new is an option, but it's a little hard to see why this should be an ironclad rule imposed on teams. I mean, what's the problem with using Kain going forward in Kain's own series. It's not like there are any limitations whatsoever associated with him to prevent him from appearing ever again; he's an evolving immortal with a time machine
    You have an amazing, revolutionary character sitting right there, just waiting to be used, rather than reinventing the wheel. Maybe there is a lack of confidence in being able to do him justice, or something?
    I definitely think they should use him in the future. But he'd need to change in some way, it's a bit like what Moebius said to him near the end of Defiance: "Your only solution to every problem...kill." Although it was a desperate sentence, it did have a certain truth to it. Not that I think Kain needs to start skipping around with bunnies and making daisy chains. But Kain has the kind of "pathos of distance" thing going on with everyone and everything, human, vampire etc. so I don't know how they could move away from that easily.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum View Post
    No doubt about it. Somebody new is an option, but it's a little hard to see why this should be an ironclad rule imposed on teams. I mean, what's the problem with using Kain going forward in Kain's own series. It's not like there are any limitations whatsoever associated with him to prevent him from appearing ever again; he's an evolving immortal with a time machine.

    You have an amazing, revolutionary character sitting right there, just waiting to be used, rather than reinventing the wheel. Maybe there is a lack of confidence in being able to do him justice, or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster View Post
    A lot of the time I try to suggest ways of continuing the series that I think are most likely to be made. The concern is that that those in charge of deciding whether to continue it might not want to risk the huge amount of backstory scaring new players off. Viewing Kain from another character's perspective might be easier on them because the new character would be learning about Kain along with the player.
    Vamp hit the nail on the head. I think that because of the all of the complex backstory, it would unrealistic for any publishers to invest so much into something which is a sequel to a series which, up until very recently, had almost completely disappeared into obscurity in terms of the mainstream.

    Reintroducing Nosgoth through the eyes of a new character would draw more of a crowd, which is why Square-Enix made the rule. Kain would still of course play a significant role, as this is 'his' legacy after all, but the game would require a new protagonist which both the new players and the old could embrace.
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    The new character needs to be something new. We already have our vampire with Kain; and Raziel will always be our wraith. This could be something entirely new like a mysterious hylden spirit, sealed away or imprisoned by the hylden long before the banishment and unknowingly released by their return to Nosgoth. It could possess and reanimate the body of someone, perhaps someone familiar to Kain, with no memory of who it was before or what it is now. Imagine Kain, young or old, encountering this creature in the body of William the Just.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    It could possess and reanimate the body of someone, perhaps someone familiar to Kain, with no memory of who it was before or what it is now. Imagine Kain, young or old, encountering this creature in the body of William the Just.
    William the Just might be quite interesting, with the connections to the Soul Reaver etc. Although it's not the best name for a hero. Well, a Legacy of Kain kind of hero.

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    If they do use William the Just, it already has a name from the series and Kain will only call this creature by that name.

    It will be called, "Nemesis"

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluagh View Post
    William the Just might be quite interesting, with the connections to the Soul Reaver etc. Although it's not the best name for a hero. Well, a Legacy of Kain kind of hero.
    Hmm. That is interesting, because in the second (and subsequent timelines) William was already killed before his forces were able to ravage Nosgoth. Basically, if Kain *doesn't* kill William in the second timeline, history would revert back to the first one.

    So Kain needs to kind of finalize the second timeline by killing him in that too.

    It's the same scenario as Raziel not killing Kain in SR2. The pull of history would compel him to repeat the action he took in the first timeline.

    EDIT: I guess in a game like that, Kain wouldn't feature until the very end. However it is the second timeline, so maybe he stuck around in that time period a bit longer.

    EDIT 2: Maybe Kain realises what killing William will cause to happen and tries to spare him. When he can't do it, that would be when he discovers that his will is not his own.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 29th Jan 2014 at 12:37.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampmaster View Post
    So Kain needs to kind of finalize the second timeline by killing him in that too.
    i'm not entirely sure if that's possible.it might be that another timeline is created and being altered after a time travel, so it's probably not possible to return to any of the previous timelines... previous timelines is probably stops to exist altogether, but whatever, this just kills a lot of possibilities.

    and about the whole William thing: although we still have vampires in that timeline, we don't have more than one soul reavers to start to mess around. besides, we don't have Kainthere anymore :C but i like the idea - another version of nosgoth with two new major forces - vampires against Nemesis empire! oh, and i wonder will the Elder Octo be interested in that timeline?..
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  23. #23
    What I meant was he's in the second timeline already (as in the first one no longer exists), but if he were to decide to opt out of killing William, it would revert to the first one.

    It would have been a fatal paradox if history didn't find a work around for the contradiction that:

    a) Kain killed William in the past.
    b) William never became the Nemesis, so Kain did not go back in time to kill him.

    History must reshuffle events so that only one of the above occurs even in the second timeline.
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    I am glad he never got the chance to be the Nemesis. Those outfits he gave the Legions were way to S and M meets The Beastmaster. Or possibly Warhammer: Chaos Warriors. But for a kind of undefined spiky evil that his soldiers were, that kind of worked in terms of the mechanics of Blood Omen.

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    The more I think on it, it would be great if the new character was a reanimation of William the Just or someone from Blood Omen. That would work towards telling the story of the series from the beginning for the new players that are unfamiliar with the series.

    It could start in the aftermath of Blood Omen, play through events leading up to Blood Omen 2 following Kain's army, and ending some time in the era of Soul Reaver fulfilling some task like piecing back together the shattered soul reaver sword.

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