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Thread: Vampire Clan Speculation

Vampire Clan Speculation

  1. #26
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    Originally Posted by Rahabthesecond
    Maybe a Sarafan Spearman like human class? Can't really fight a vampire in 1 on 1 but can keep him at distance and allow the shooters to do the damage or finish of a single vampire in a group? I just don't like the idea that only vampires can do close combat.

    Otherwise: As the development progresses we will perhaps see vampires that haven't been in the series at all to alow greater variety.

    Ps: Guess there is no chance that we will see Hylden in the game?
    No melee for the Humans, please. Sarafans should have some other abilities. And no, no chance for hylden in the game...
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  2. #27
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    I'd rather not see any Sarafan in the game. They are long dead. However I wouldn't be against melee human characters. The games clearly had humans who would take on both humans and Raziel. So the only thing I see making it difficult is the game's basic premise of humans = ranged, vampires = melee.

    Though personally I think that could be swapped over with additional classes because I think some of the vampire clans not present could lend themselves to ranged combat. Either that or make ranged versions of vampires like the Turelim and give them their TK blast.

    Or you could have human vampire worshippers on the vampire's side. They could use a polearm like they did in SR1.
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  3. #28
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    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    I'd rather not see any Sarafan in the game. They are long dead. However I wouldn't be against melee human characters. The games clearly had humans who would take on both humans and Raziel. So the only thing I see making it difficult is the game's basic premise of humans = ranged, vampires = melee.

    Though personally I think that could be swapped over with additional classes because I think some of the vampire clans not present could lend themselves to ranged combat. Either that or make ranged versions of vampires like the Turelim and give them their TK blast.

    Or you could have human vampire worshippers on the vampire's side. They could use a polearm like they did in SR1.
    They are long dead, yes, but not entirelly, I think. A complete genocide is something really hard to accomplish. Maybe there are some Sarafan wanderers somewhere. And the thing that I are liking at most in the game is it's basic premisse of the game of ranged x melee...
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  4. #29
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    Originally Posted by ZeroFernir
    They are long dead, yes, but not entirelly, I think. A complete genocide is something really hard to accomplish. Maybe there are some Sarafan wanderers somewhere. And the thing that I are liking at most in the game is it's basic premisse of the game of ranged x melee...
    It doesn't really have anything to do with genocide. It's an order, not a ethnic group. The Sarafan order doesn't really exist anymore. I could imagine their legends inspiring human descendants, but the order itself is most likely gone completely.
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  5. #30
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    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    It doesn't really have anything to do with genocide. It's an order, not a ethnic group. The Sarafan order doesn't really exist anymore. I could imagine their legends inspiring human descendants, but the order itself is most likely gone completely.
    Most likely, but not necessarelly.
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  6. #31
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    The Sarafan (both versions) are consistently described as a dead faction in the Soul Reaver era, and in my opinion it would be lame and unnecessary to contradict this fact which the previous five games asserted time and time again.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  7. #32
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    Exactly. I like the Sarafan, their order. We have seen the real order of them and they existed 500 years before BO1. It was redundant of the BO2 team to revive them in BO2. And they really created a bastardized version of them in that game. If there are any who follow that particular version of the order left, they shouldn't be calling themselves Sarafan. The Sarafan in BO2 were as bad to humans as the thugs in the game, worse in some instances. So, humanity should no longer feel a flocking toward anyone with that as their title. Then again, I guess it could be an interesting dilemma to choose the enemy of your enemy at that point. You could probably make anything work, if done right, but maybe as a fan addition to characters created, or something in the future...

    Now, some order based on the original version, using its principles as a guiding light, but still never calling themselves that, might not be so bad. I wouldn't mind references to such, like in their Lore background.

  8. #33
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    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    Exactly. I like the Sarafan, their order. We have seen the real order of them and they existed 500 years before BO1. It was redundant of the BO2 team to revive them in BO2. And they really created a bastardized version of them in that game. If there are any who follow that particular version of the order left, they shouldn't be calling themselves Sarafan. The Sarafan in BO2 were as bad to humans as the thugs in the game, worse in some instances. So, humanity should no longer feel a flocking toward anyone with that as their title. Then again, I guess it could be an interesting dilemma to choose the enemy of your enemy at that point. You could probably make anything work, if done right, but maybe as a fan addition to characters created, or something in the future...

    Now, some order based on the original version, using its principles as a guiding light, but still never calling themselves that, might not be so bad. I wouldn't mind references to such, like in their Lore background.
    I couldn't agree more. But the fact of Razielim going in the vampire side is almost the same as BO2 Sarafans in human side (not saying that they should be there).
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  9. #34
    The Sarafan were best represented in their original incarnation in SR2, BO2 just ruined it, well quite frankly BO2 ruined lots of things, Ironically the Hylden are better represented, in my opinion, in Defiance, they feel like they should be there, the only good thing in BO2 was the Seer and Janos, everything else is a mockery of what was established in the previous games, Vorador is now a sort of caring father figure, and undergoes a complete facial and personality makeover, the Hylden are nothing more than corpses who engage in politics and use humans (when before they used demons ), Kain not only lets Umah steal the nexus stone from him, doubtful someone as cautious as him would be so careless, and then he laments about how she left him 'alone' .....Not really Kain-like.

    Anyway, back on track, Hylden don't make sense to be added in the game at this time, except maybe as a possessed human class, they were banished again at the end of BO2 and haven't been seen since, and that wasn't even in the SR timeline in wish Nosgoth takes place ( PS for those who think the statues in the art of a vampire city are Hylden I say look again and compare the Headdress they have to a razielim from the trailer, one is wearing the exact same headdress ) .

    Humans in melee doesn't make much sense at this time, Sarafan had a history of hunting vampires, and were a much more established force than the current resurgent human threat, and as Raziel pointed out the vampires of that time 'weren't the uncontested predators' of the Empire era. Humans need tricks and tactics to win.

    For a new vampire class well a new clan is hard to balance, BUT what about a subfaction of the current clans? Maybe a Turelim with higher telekinesis and more advanced mutations (ears) to explain it.

  10. #35
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    Originally Posted by ZeroFernir
    I couldn't agree more. But the fact of Razielim going in the vampire side is almost the same as BO2 Sarafans in human side (not saying that they should be there).
    The fate of the Razielim was always a bit ambiguous and the devs said they had yet to reveal their ultimate fate. In the case of the Sarafan there was never really anything that cast doubt on the Sarafan order's extinction.
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  11. #36
    BO 2 Sarafan shouldn't even be taken into consideration, Nosgoth happens during the SR 1 timeline, Hylden weren't even known at that time, maybe they could have a small influence like a corrupted human class with magic powers or something, but no more.

  12. #37
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    Originally Posted by LordNekronom
    Humans in melee doesn't make much sense at this time, Sarafan had a history of hunting vampires, and were a much more established force than the current resurgent human threat, and as Raziel pointed out the vampires of that time 'weren't the uncontested predators' of the Empire era. Humans need tricks and tactics to win.
    Though it's some time before Raziel's rebirth I don't see why they couldn't have vampire worshipers back then too. I imagine they would still have had them back then and eventually turn some into vampires also.

    Originally Posted by LordNekronom
    For a new vampire class well a new clan is hard to balance, BUT what about a subfaction of the current clans? Maybe a Turelim with higher telekinesis and more advanced mutations (ears) to explain it.
    I'm sure there's much room for showing a subfaction that is more developed in their devolution than what there already is. However if the war for Nosgoth lasts for a long time then I would think it would be reasonable to add more devolved versions of the vampire clans to the game.


    Originally Posted by LordNekronom
    BO 2 Sarafan shouldn't even be taken into consideration, Nosgoth happens during the SR 1 timeline, Hylden weren't even known at that time, maybe they could have a small influence like a corrupted human class with magic powers or something, but no more.
    True. There's no point in adding an overt Hylden presence as it would be essentially lore bending. There's no evidence they had a presence in this time period so adding them would be basically ignoring that. I'm not too sure on a possessed human class because even if you were to keep it secret you'd still have to explain their presence and purpose and why that had no consequence that we could see previously.
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  13. #38
    I think we should have a class for the humans that has some melee capabilities. Like some have said the Sarafan have long been dead;I bet none of the humans even remember who they are. What I think they can do to incorporate the Sarafan in a way is skins for the humans. Like Sarafan knight armour and such. I think some Sarafan armours for the humans would be very nice for players to feel different from each other. Hell think of a skin for the Razielim before they devolved. That would sell like crazy(depending if everything is acquired through levels or in-game micro-transactions.) Maybe even a skin for the Razliem where they look like the ancient vampires with angel wings instead. Theres a lot they can do at this point for the character models and how to work with them.

  14. #39
    Wow....looks like I started something here...
    The important word in my first post was the Sarafan spearman LIKE class, not an actual Sarafan class, acting like those spearman from Defiance. Even better fitting would be some "specialized" Vampire hunter class (Specialized in the sense that they were actually trained for that in their background different than for example the Alcemists who seem to have started to fight because of the need to do so) using an iron collar attached to a spear to catch a vampire and keep it at bay.
    As Lord Nekronom points out humans need tactics to win. But different to him I come to the conclusion that leaving out close combat (and perhaps not even carrying cc arms for the emergency) is more or less the opposite of a sane tactic. Having a guy with a toweshield who is able to keep an angry vampire away from the shooters untill they managed to pick an other arrow and aim sounds more of a tactic to me.

    Hylden: Even if I would realy like them ingame (at least if there is a good explanation) real Hylden seem to be a bad choice. Possesed humans might work if it's clear from the beginning that they didn't reach their goal during the events of tis game and therefore have no influence on timeline etc.

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by Rahabthesecond
    Wow....looks like I started something here...
    The important word in my first post was the Sarafan spearman LIKE class, not an actual Sarafan class, acting like those spearman from Defiance. Even better fitting would be some "specialized" Vampire hunter class (Specialized in the sense that they were actually trained for that in their background different than for example the Alcemists who seem to have started to fight because of the need to do so) using an iron collar attached to a spear to catch a vampire and keep it at bay.
    As Lord Nekronom points out humans need tactics to win. But different to him I come to the conclusion that leaving out close combat (and perhaps not even carrying cc arms for the emergency) is more or less the opposite of a sane tactic. Having a guy with a toweshield who is able to keep an angry vampire away from the shooters untill they managed to pick an other arrow and aim sounds more of a tactic to me.

    Hylden: Even if I would realy like them ingame (at least if there is a good explanation) real Hylden seem to be a bad choice. Possesed humans might work if it's clear from the beginning that they didn't reach their goal during the events of tis game and therefore have no influence on timeline etc.
    Actually I meant not having a full blown melee class as in both offense and defense, think of a Human counterpart to the Turelim, a class that focuses on shields for defense and crowd control or a spear using warrior who focuses on offense, and maybe could throw the spear at the cost of loosing dmg until he finds a weapons rack or something could work, but the human chars in LoK who went into melee often had both defense and offense, considering the strenght of the vampires at this era the option of a human going full melee and being a match for a vamp isn't a realistic option, so melee should be a last resort either high burst dmg or uber defense., though shields wouldn't work since the vamps can just go around you and maul the archers/casters, but a chain using class that grabs and holds down a vampire for a time ( this interaction can be broken if the vampire has enough stamina/resource or another vampire hits the human ) is plausible, but it would be a specialized support/defensive class in that case as it would require another human to kill said imobilized vamp.
    Also I would like to remember everyone as to how vampires are killed in the SR1 era: burned,impaled, immersed in water and exposure to sunlight for fledgelings. So swords and general melee used before on other generations of vampires would have little effect. The vampire generation sired by Kain is considered in every aspect of the lore to be the most powerful, aside from the Ancient vampires.

  16. #41
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    Originally Posted by LordNekronom
    Humans in melee doesn't make much sense at this time
    Mmm, well, I think Soul Reaver would very much beg to differ:


    (click image to enlarge)

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    These big four-pronged spears used by vampire hunters to pin down devolved Dumahim corpses in the Ruined City, and three of these man-sized stakes required to pierce Dumah's heart.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  17. #42
    SE have already they want Nosgoth to be one team of ranged vs one team of melee. It's one of their main selling points. Adding a human melee class will only break that rule.

    Although, I just realised that having wooden stakes would be less of a problem because the vampires could just break them in half if the humans tried to use those up close.

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by LordNekronom
    Actually I meant not having a full blown melee class as in both offense and defense, think of a Human counterpart to the Turelim, a class that focuses on shields for defense and crowd control or a spear using warrior who focuses on offense, and maybe could throw the spear at the cost of loosing dmg until he finds a weapons rack or something could work, but the human chars in LoK who went into melee often had both defense and offense, considering the strenght of the vampires at this era the option of a human going full melee and being a match for a vamp isn't a realistic option, so melee should be a last resort either high burst dmg or uber defense., though shields wouldn't work since the vamps can just go around you and maul the archers/casters, but a chain using class that grabs and holds down a vampire for a time ( this interaction can be broken if the vampire has enough stamina/resource or another vampire hits the human ) is plausible, but it would be a specialized support/defensive class in that case as it would require another human to kill said imobilized vamp.
    Also I would like to remember everyone as to how vampires are killed in the SR1 era: burned,impaled, immersed in water and exposure to sunlight for fledgelings. So swords and general melee used before on other generations of vampires would have little effect. The vampire generation sired by Kain is considered in every aspect of the lore to be the most powerful, aside from the Ancient vampires.
    I agree the vampires either need fire, impalement, water, or decapitation of the head(I think on that last one). A spear/javelin/lance/pole-arm would be the only real choice to kill a vampire in melee. I feel as though there should be a melee class( maybe not oriented on melee but have the capacity like a small axe or something to defend with)since they are facing vampires. They know that close-quarters is where they dominate but staying ranged and kiting won't work forever.

  19. #44
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    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    These big four-pronged spears used by vampire hunters to pin down devolved Dumahim corpses in the Ruined City, and three of these man-sized stakes required to pierce Dumah's heart.
    Yeah. There is good evidence that humans are able to engage vampires in melee throughout the series. I'm not sure who said it (it may have been Daniel Cabuco), but someone did mention that the vampires have a lot of weaknesses. In some cases it's arguably better to be human. Though I'm not saying it would be a totally even fight. Vampires are obviously stronger and have supernatural abilities, but it's not impossible for humans to engage them in melee.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    SE have already they want Nosgoth to be one team of ranged vs one team of melee. It's one of their main selling points. Adding a human melee class will only break that rule.
    Maybe, but if they had vampire ranged classes to balance that out then it would really be breaking the rule. You could just set it up so that you can only have one side ranged and one side melee.
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  20. #45
    I don't know. It could be difficult to pull of. It would either half the choice of characters players have to choose from or half the ability set. I mean you can ask the devs, but I don't think they'd go for it.

  21. #46
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    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    Maybe, but if they had vampire ranged classes to balance that out then it would really be breaking the rule. You could just set it up so that you can only have one side ranged and one side melee.
    I think it would be only a lack of consistence on the game. What makes the game unique and special for the gamers who doesn't know the series is the idea of a melee x range combat (I can tell this, I convinced a lot of gamers who doesn't even know the series to try it out because of that). It is the main point of the game, and taking it off by adding one class that is the opposite of it's factions it's pointless.
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  22. #47
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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    I don't know. It could be difficult to pull of. It would either half the choice of characters players have to choose from or half the ability set. I mean you can ask the devs, but I don't think they'd go for it.
    I don't follow your thinking. How would it half the choice? I don't see why their inclusion as an unlockable during some matches means that the normal classes are somehow taken away.


    Originally Posted by ZeroFernir
    I think it would be only a lack of consistence on the game. What makes the game unique and special for the gamers who doesn't know the series is the idea of a melee x range combat (I can tell this, I convinced a lot of gamers who doesn't even know the series to try it out because of that). It is the main point of the game, and taking it off by adding one class that is the opposite of it's factions it's pointless.
    I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they should go against their melee vs ranged. I'm saying they can still keep the melee vs ranged, but it doesn't always need to be humans always ranged and vampires always melee. I'm saying they could keep that core aspect, but that they could add melee humans and ranged vampires and still restrict one team to melee and one team to ranged.

    That and I don't see the harm of adding human vampire worshipers as a melee class on the vampires side. They fit within the lore as clearly shown in Soul Reaver.

    If it's just about melee vs ranged then I don't see the difficulty with those suggestions. If it's specifically about vampires being melee and humans being ranged then fine, I think it's arbitrarily restrictive in that case, but that's their prerogative.
    Last edited by Reidbynature; 5th Oct 2013 at 19:19.
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  23. #48
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    I see no horrific game-breaking issue in perhaps having one human melee class and one vampire ranged class, the rest all ranged and all melee respectively. In terms of the storyline/lore/world, it would only make sense. Even putting the facts from Soul Reaver aside, these are entire races of beings we're talking about, full of variety. They're not universally going to resort to one mode of attack.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  24. #49
    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    I don't follow your thinking. How would it half the choice? I don't see why their inclusion as an unlockable during some matches means that the normal classes are somehow taken away.




    I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they should go against their melee vs ranged. I'm saying they can still keep the melee vs ranged, but it doesn't always need to be humans always ranged and vampires always melee. I'm saying they could keep that core aspect, but that they could add melee humans and ranged vampires and still restrict one team to melee and one team to ranged.

    That and I don't see the harm of adding human vampire worshipers as a melee class on the vampires side. They fit within the lore as clearly shown in Soul Reaver.

    If it's just about melee vs ranged then I don't see the difficulty with those suggestions. If it's specifically about vampires being melee and humans being ranged then fine, I think it's arbitrarily restrictive in that case, but that's their prerogative.
    I was honestly hoping for humans vs the clans only. But there should be a melee class for the humans that I strongly believe. It would take more skill than his/her ranged counter-parts but hell it can be done.

  25. #50
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    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they should go against their melee vs ranged. I'm saying they can still keep the melee vs ranged, but it doesn't always need to be humans always ranged and vampires always melee. I'm saying they could keep that core aspect, but that they could add melee humans and ranged vampires and still restrict one team to melee and one team to ranged.

    That and I don't see the harm of adding human vampire worshipers as a melee class on the vampires side. They fit within the lore as clearly shown in Soul Reaver.

    If it's just about melee vs ranged then I don't see the difficulty with those suggestions. If it's specifically about vampires being melee and humans being ranged then fine, I think it's arbitrarily restrictive in that case, but that's their prerogative.
    No I didn't misunderstood anything. I've got your idea. And I am not saying that it is against the lore or anything. What I am saing is that is is against the whole idea of the game.

    Originally Posted by Raziel1228
    I was honestly hoping for humans vs the clans only. But there should be a melee class for the humans that I strongly believe. It would take more skill than his/her ranged counter-parts but hell it can be done.
    Even if they (the devs) agree with you, it's their work to balance it all. It shouldn't be hard to play with an specific character.
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