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Thread: NEW Interview (Images to come in EDGE magazine)...

NEW Interview (Images to come in EDGE magazine)...

  1. #26
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    René, you sound like you're defending the following statement:

    "It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience."

    Um... besides doing your homework on Deus Ex itself, did the team study the game's lineage and its unique genre?

    Did you study the Ultima Underworld, System Shock & Thief games?

    Are you familiar with the term "immersive simulation," a term used extensively by Warren Spector to describe the type of game Deus Ex represents?

    A huge part of the magic and beauty of Deus Ex was its more deliberate, methodical pace and gameplay. This is because, yes, it was designed as much as a simulation as a game.

    This was a Good Thing and not something a designer should be criticizing in early interviews.

  2. #27
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    Originally Posted by René
    ^^ Yep.

    JF said: “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”
    Edge headline: “the first Deus Ex was "kinda slow".”

    Not really the same thing, eh? Looks to me like a sensationalist headline to get site traffic. I can't blame them I guess but I really wish people did a little research rather than jumping to conclusions. For example, in the same post they write: “But he said developer Eidos Montreal would not attempt to dumb down the much-loved RPG-shooter franchise.”
    The sentence "Kinda Slow" is from EDGE and not from Dugas?

    He said that he will not dumb down the franchise, but we all know that DX3 will use auto-life-regen.

  3. #28
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    Marketing has deferent words for everything. Dumping down could become "lighten the gameplay".

  4. #29
    I think maybe its an issue of getting the balance right, that maybe the combat in DX wasn't exciting enough, but certainly not an issue of 'often enough' since thats really up to the player if they regularly choose the guns blazing approach or not (One of the beauties of DX1).

    I definately think we're being too quick to assume that DX1 being described as "kinda slow" suddenly means that DX3 is going to be the exact opposite - I really don't believe that'll be the case, even after reading that sound bite quality comment in the preview of the preview.

    But I've been burned by preview articles before, I once concluded from a preview article for Unreal 2, that the game would provide a selection of missions only some of which you'd be given time to do in a single play through, affecting which groups would help or hinder towards the end...
    It turned out that you'd help ALL of those factions as part of a linear progression, which was dissapointing for me and for one element of still unexplored potential in the games industry (heck, even Mass Effect missed that opportunity to a certain extent).

  5. #30
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    Originally Posted by slamelov
    The sentence "Kinda Slow" is from EDGE and not from Dugas?

    He said that he will not dumb down the franchise, but we all know that DX3 will use auto-life-regen.
    Rene works with the man. I think he would know.

  6. #31
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    So, that's not a fair attitude from EDGE, I think they should change it.

  7. #32
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    Originally Posted by ZenAbra
    René, you sound like you're defending the following statement:
    I'm cautioning against jumping to conclusions based off sound bites rather than educating yourself and reading the entire articles. Unfortunately for now, all the articles are in print and not online so people's access to the full information is potentially limited compared to the ease of the Internet. Thus, we get token sound bites to make you want to buy the magazine. At least that's what I'd guess they're hoping for.

  8. #33
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    Well this explains the Call of Duty health regeneration and the cutting of the stealth system.

    Deus Ex: Invisible War 2 confirmed.

  9. #34
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    Originally Posted by WhatsHisFace
    Well this explains the Call of Duty health regeneration and the cutting of the stealth system.

    Deus Ex: Invisible War 2 confirmed.
    Welcome. Have you read the rest of the thread?

  10. #35
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    Originally Posted by Kieranator
    Welcome. Have you read the rest of the thread?
    Or this thread? http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80786

  11. #36
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    Originally Posted by René
    I'm cautioning against jumping to conclusions based off sound bites rather than educating yourself and reading the entire articles. Unfortunately for now, all the articles are in print and not online so people's access to the full information is potentially limited compared to the ease of the Internet. Thus, we get token sound bites to make you want to buy the magazine. At least that's what I'd guess they're hoping for.
    But the text in that link reads:

    In an interview with Edge magazine, published tomorrow, Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”
    So, or EDGE is lying or really Dugas said that. Why should EDGe lye?

  12. #37
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    Originally Posted by René
    And there's also a translation of one article on http://www.deus3x.com/.

  13. #38
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    Originally Posted by René
    In that thread confirm auto-health.

  14. #39
    Steering the design away from simulation toward "gaminess" is a huge part of why I hated Invisible War and Deadly Shadows.

    Harvey Smith himself has acknowledged that they made a huge mistake stripping Invisible War down to its pure gameplay elements. The simulationist approach they took on the original DX, with its many redundant and overlapping systems, was exactly what made it feel so "real world" and immersive.

  15. #40
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    I think if you lost the "inmersion simulation" from first DX, you will have the same "success" that DX IW. For "once in a lifetime", hear the fans. May be initial sales could be great with a "dumbed down" game, but probably you could get a great success in long term if the game really rocks. A great game with SDk and editor, and multiplayer, could sell for years.

  16. #41
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    René, honestly, it looks like you're dodging the question.

    We're only getting sound bites from questionable resources and we should be wary of committing our opinions based on those sound bits. I get it.

    That's not the question.

    In a quote -- not a paraphrase or a headline created by a media source -- your lead designer criticized Deus Ex for being "kinda slow" and more like a "simulation" rather than a "game."

    Are you defending this criticism or not? It looks like you are.

    If this quote from your lead designer -- and it is a quote -- is an inaccurate representation of Eidos Montreal's approach to Deus Ex 3, you need to say so directly and not dance around the issue.

    And again I ask the more meaningful question: Did Eidos Montreal study Deus Ex's lineage? Did you study Underworld, System Shock & Thief when considering the style and pace of Deus Ex 3? Are you familiar with Warren Spector's genre definition for Deus Ex, "Immersive Simulation"?

  17. #42
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    The overall feeling I get is that people are worried DX3 is more IW/GoW than DX1. This is is not true. DX3 is more DX1 than anything. I've said this before but it bears repeating.

    First off, yes some things are changing:

    -Auto health regen (although we haven't been told exactly how this will work...)
    -Stealth to line-of-sight and sound instead of darkness
    -Contextual third person elements

    Maybe even just a slight change to one of these is a deal-breaker for you and I can't change that so I'm sorry. However, if you think DX1 is much more than these three elements, then you will be happy:

    -Different ways to solve any objective depending on your play style (social, hacking, stealth, or action)
    -Customization of your character (augmentations) and weapons
    -Deep story with a strong consipracy
    -Lots of social interaction with numerous characters
    -Consequences to your actions that affect things down the line
    -A near future (Cyberpunk) setting
    -Open levels with limited load times (think DX1 not IW)
    -Random explorable elements with earned experience points
    -Global travel
    -More stuff I'm forgetting

    Don't forget to check out the images since they speak in their own way as well. And before you go crazy about Barrett, don't forget DX1 had Gunther.

  18. #43
    That last post seriously needs transcribing to the 'what rene said' thread.

  19. #44
    René must be coming to dread every time the devs open their mouths.

    And since he mentioned this--
    "Stealth to line-of-sight and sound instead of darkness"

    The original Deus Ex AI awareness system supported line-of-sight and sound and darkness. So it appears that DX3 will be using a primitive, inferior system.

  20. #45
    Actually the darkness system didn't make complete sense because AI potentially had access to night vision goggles but never used them...

    Oh, and for some reason environment suits and night goggles didn't have an off switch if I remember rightly.

  21. #46
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    Originally Posted by ZenAbra
    In a quote -- not a paraphrase or a headline created by a media source -- your lead designer criticized Deus Ex for being "kinda slow" and more like a "simulation" rather than a "game."

    Are you defending this criticism or not? It looks like you are.

    If this quote from your lead designer -- and it is a quote -- is an inaccurate representation of Eidos Montreal's approach to Deus Ex 3, you need to say so directly and not dance around the issue.
    There are aspects of DX1 that are more based around simluation, such as your shooting ability. As clarified already, stats have been removed from the act of shooting and instead relies on your ability to target with your mouse and keyboard. So that part is true and you may not like it but it's a desicion that's been made so I'm sorry. However stats have not been removed from you building your character or modifying weapons. There may be other examples of stats/simulation like this that I don't know about but that's where I think he's coming from with that statement.

    And yeah I guess I am defending it. Maybe I'm biased but I also realize that DX1, as good as it was/is, came out eight years ago and I actually wouldn't mind some elements being updated as long as the core values are respected (see post above).

    In terms of the dev team's approach to the game, can I ask without any sarcasm intended, what do you really know? Have you read the whole articles in Edge, PC Zone, Joystik, etc, or are you forming an opinion off a selected quote? If you have read one of them then you are more informed than most so share your opinion as to the team's approach to the game. You're not here every day to see the research and work they do so I can't prove that they care, but as we already know, Sheldon's involved and Warren and Harvey have been spoken to. I'm not sure what else I can say on that topic.

    Originally Posted by ZenAbra
    And again I ask the more meaningful question: Did Eidos Montreal study Deus Ex's lineage? Did you study Underworld, System Shock & Thief when considering the style and pace of Deus Ex 3? Are you familiar with Warren Spector's genre definition for Deus Ex, "Immersive Simulation"?
    Yes.



    PS: I don't think he said "kinda slow" - that was Edge paraphrasing.

  22. #47
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    Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    René must be coming to dread every time the devs open their mouths.
    Nah, this is kind of fun! *slits wrists* Besides, it's not what the devs are saying, it's how the online media is posting things.

    Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    The original Deus Ex AI awareness system supported line-of-sight...
    I'm not so sure about that. I can recall countless times where a guard was literally a couple feet in front of me but didn't see me since I was in shadows.

  23. #48
    Originally Posted by Larington
    Actually the darkness system didn't make complete sense because AI potentially had access to night vision goggles but never used them...
    Agree, LOS system makes more sense. Try to hide in shadows or darkness playing a game that features an advanced AI - Splinter Cell, for example - you'll go far...

  24. #49
    Of course, using a sound & line of sight system potentially puts added pressure onto getting the AI right (Especially if you want a believable interaction between the player and AI investigating a possible incursion), and creates opportunities for whole new kinds of mistakes.

    Whether its a right choice or not? I remain positive, but I suspect this will be something only the history books will be able to comment on with any reliability.

    I remember playing one of the early Thief games some time ago, and I was in a situation where I was sitting in the corner of a dark area, 2 guards trying to hunt me down and one of them was literally walking against Garrett without seeing him - It didn't make sense and it never will. Aside from the occasional occurance of that though, the background and reasoning for Garrets abilities mitigated most of the issues with the hiding in darkness concept, but it doesn't quite work when you extend it to modern day worlds, or ones with night vision monsters.

  25. #50
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    Originally Posted by René
    In terms of the dev team's approach to the game, can I ask without any sarcasm intended, what do you really know?
    Not much, I readily admit, but that's precisely why I'm asking such direct and specific questions.

    If your company chooses to present limited information via overseas print publications without a corresponding online public relations plan, I'm afraid you're in the position of dealing with the inevitable consequences.

    When your lead designer makes statements which a media source encloses with quotations, you either have to defend or clarify those statements or specifically detail how and why the media source got it wrong.

    We're human beings and we're excited about this franchise. If you present us such limited glimpses into the game, you better believe we'll ponder, speculate and discuss.

    And so I really appreciate your detailed responses here.

    I'm not a raving, assuming-the-worst fanboy. None of the specific changes in your above post are "deal breakers" for me (although each one is a little disappointing).

    However, I did not have a good feeling from the collective perception created by those changes along with your lead designer's unclarified criticism of the original Deus Ex as too much a "simulation."

    I really feel for you, René. This has gotta be one of the most sloppy and ineffective media rollouts of an anticipated game I've ever seen. And unfortunately, you're on the front line to deflect the harshest blows from the community response. Hang in there.

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