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Thread: Elder God's feeding

  1. #1

    Elder God's feeding

    Why exactly does EG need his little minions to roam about the spectral world and eat souls? Im not sure where but I remember somewhere in Defiance implying that when Raziel eats a soul, he feeds EG as well. Is this true?

    If it is true, doesnt it mean that EG can revive anyone in the world, even if they are soul-sucked by Raziel? Like Moebius

  2. #2
    no, by the time the soul reaches him it is too late.

    my main thought with his minnions has been that it is to deal with creatures like the scuwin(spl) and vampires that have addapted to their new un-life, this and his greed.

    your right in saying that raziel feeds the EG as well as himself as in one of the mini tutorials of defiance the EG gives you the task of clearing a room of souls.

    raziel "i must feed you"
    Elder God "you must feed 'yourself'"

    if you hear the voices its more obvious. pluss i think it mentions it in the into to soulreaver after the high detailed intro.

  3. #3
    "no, by the time the soul reaches him it is too late."

    any evidence?

  4. #4
    none other than hints.

    1 if it was posible im sure the EG would have returned mobuios just to annoy raziel.

    2 in defiance in the first lvl with raziel just before you change back its hinted that the soul is converted into some type of enery and this is then passed onto the EG. i'll edit this in a moment to conferm or to say i got it mixed up lol, just got to re-install defiance

    edit- ba. its not in the darkcronicals section of the game. will look on youtube.

  5. #5
    Raziel: "I must feed you"

    EG: "you must feed yourself"

    Raziel: "The wheel must turn"

    EG: "ah, now you understand"


    EG: "settle your dispute with Kain. Destroy him and your brethren! Reave their souls and let the wheel of fate turn again. I can make it possible. Become my Soul Reaver, my Angle of Death....


    (I wrote down the dialogue by heart, so their might be a few mistakes)



    (found some corrected ones at Nosgothic Realm)

    http://www.nosgoth.net/Defiance/dialogue/dialogue2.htm

    http://www.nosgoth.net/Soul_Reaver/dialogue/page1.htm

  6. #6
    thanks Linikratyo


    the quote is on the first link

    "My master's plan for me was ominously clear. Like these mindless hunters, I existed only to fuel him with souls, siphoning their energy to feed him and his Wheel of Fate. I had to break these bonds, while I still possessed my own will."

    from this it seems that raziel and the other creatures that serve the EG will feed off a soul, thus revitalising themselfs (first clue) and turning the soul into some sort of energy that the EG feeds off and creates a new soul from(2 cul, however their isnt any evidence as to what happens to a soul that is fed to the EG other than what the EG himself says)

  7. #7
    oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo that quote!!
    I never noticed really that that was some other evidence....

  8. #8
    This brings up another question though:

    If the souls that Raziel devours feed the Elder God, and it is Raziel who is trapped in the Soul Reaver, then why is it that the Soul Reaver can hurt the Elder God? Or an even larger question would be what happens if the Elder God is defeated by the Soul Reaver? He can't eat his own soul. Major paradox...
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  9. #9
    If the souls that Raziel devours feed the Elder God, and it is Raziel who is trapped in the Soul Reaver, then why is it that the Soul Reaver can hurt the Elder God? Or an even larger question would be what happens if the Elder God is defeated by the Soul Reaver? He can't eat his own soul. Major paradox...
    There was a theory about it.
    Perhaps the energy, that the Soul Reaver steals from it victim's soul with every strike, don't feed the EG, it feed Raziel. Only after the Soul Reaver devour the whole soul it goes to the Elder (supported by fact in the Soul Reaver 2, where Raziel can hurt someone with the Wraith Blade and then kill his enemy with other weapon - victim's soul would be damaged and weak).
    And that thepry explains that the Elder God cannot be destroyed at all - he is too powerful. But the Reaver can destroy it becuase it can force Elder to devour his own soul. As we know, it is not possible. But the author of that theory points on what happened with the Soul Reaver when Kain tried to strike Raziel doan at the Sanctuary of Clans - the blade shattered. The author thinks that same thing can happend with Elder's soul - his soul willl completely destroyed.
    I remeber a fanfic on GameFAQs where Kain destroyed the Elder God in that way.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel'sRevenge View Post
    This brings up another question though:

    If the souls that Raziel devours feed the Elder God, and it is Raziel who is trapped in the Soul Reaver, then why is it that the Soul Reaver can hurt the Elder God? Or an even larger question would be what happens if the Elder God is defeated by the Soul Reaver? He can't eat his own soul. Major paradox...
    Maybe he can. Raziel couldn't devour his own soul because the soul doing the devouring was older than the other soul, so it didn't work. But maybe you can devour yourself in the present.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel'sRevenge View Post
    This brings up another question though:

    If the souls that Raziel devours feed the Elder God, and it is Raziel who is trapped in the Soul Reaver, then why is it that the Soul Reaver can hurt the Elder God? Or an even larger question would be what happens if the Elder God is defeated by the Soul Reaver? He can't eat his own soul. Major paradox...
    i brought up this issue in another topic about the death of the EG.

    my main thought about it is that in SR2 kain mentions a warning not to make a paradox that is too large, else history will simply cut out the paradox and hela itself. his fear was that the "ones pulling the strings" were trying to get this out come as it would be the only way raziel could be removed.

    the effect of the EG devouring himself is a monumental paradox. the reaver shattered itself as it was the reason behind the paradox, so the paradox in may opinion would be inflicted on the EG instead of the blade as that is were history would see the porblem. the fact that the reaver can harm the EG may be the paradox corecting iteself in a split second like with the reave braking, in other words the reaver can harm the EG as time is trying to prevent the paradox of the EG devouring his own soul.

    tho this is just all a theory as we have no idea what happens to the souls that are devoured by the soul reaver.

  12. #12
    Here's a thought. The elder god feeds on the souls to turn the wheel. Which is basically like a water wheel. the river flows spinning the wheel, the water reaches a lake where it evaporates only to be poured down again replenishing the source. A soul is born, it dies and must be returned to the source so it can be reborn spinning the wheel of life. (wheel of fate, wheel of time etc) The elder gods little minions do the same. Not necessarily feeding the elder god but keeping the wheel turning. I don't recall the elder god claiming to have ever created them only that they do his bidding. Now enters Wraith Raziel. Same type of entity only this one has the ability to reason.


    The fact that the wraith blade is able to hurt the elder god, however it does so, is nothing more than a statement that in time Raziel would be able to do so. As the wraith blade is him only having taken the shape of the vessel he has been imprisoned in for millenia...the sword. But it is still his soul doing damage to the elder god. So given enough time Raziel could grow strong enough to rival the elder god. So best choice of action against something you can not kill.....control it. By killing Kain Raziel would then be imprisoned within the reaver with no one to know who or what the elder god is, who or what the wraith blade/raziel is and thus no one to threaten the elder god.


    One could argue "But the elder version of Raziel's soul has to enter Kain." If the younger sentient form enters the reaver and the older demented version is released then the elder god now has just another puppet. A starving beast to keep the wheel going.


    I don't think Raziel was feeding the elder god. Only in feeding he was doind the elder gods work. And the elder god was able to guide him as Raziel was just another wraith which it has seen millions of times.

  13. #13
    I'm not entirely sure that it's Raziel's soul that damages the Elder God. After all, you'll notice that, in SR1, the Reaver doesn't devour souls at all, it just rips the target to shreds. I think the reason why it can hurt the Elder God is just because it's a really powerful magical weapon. Note that it drains Kain's magic power in BO1, implying that the damage it deals is based on magical energy. Or really, a combination of magical energy and physical damage, since the Wraith Blade by itself can't hurt the Elder God.

    If that's the case, it means that the most important weapons Kain has against the Elder God are his immortality and near-invulnerability as well as his new-found ability to see the Elder God. For all we know, the Soul Reaver may not be necessary to kill him, you could just get some other magical weapon. Like Kain's old flame sword.

  14. #14
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    Mmm, fried Calamari...

    Yes, the Wraith Blade, itself, isn't harmful to the EG. I took that to mean there needed to be a physical element to the blade, which is the physical Blood Reaver sword. Combine the two, you can now affect the EG in both realms -- the Material Realm and the Spectral Realm -- where he seems to exist naturally within both.

    Indeed Raziel becomes the new Wraith Blade when he's sucked into the Blood Reaver at the end of Defiance and he can hurt the EG whilst within the blade, forming the Soul Reaver. Yet, his elder self -- endowed fully as the Spirit Reaver -- had no affect on the EG. It's not the age that means anything. It's the combination of physical blade and spiritual one that matters.

    EG:
    “Hahaha, your efforts are wasted, Raziel! That weapon you bear, however endowed, remains only a Wraith Blade. It cannot touch me!”

  15. #15
    well, EG never really wanted raziel as a play thing. he just wanted him out of the way so he didnt enter the sword and thus arm kain with a weapon that could harm him.

    like he says "your fate was trivial, it was kains fate that mattered all along"

    kains fate was to restor balance and it seems that killing the EG is included in it. raziels was lke he has always say, to be his sword and aid him.


    if the EG could convince or force raziel to stay in the spectril relm then it would have stopped the soul reaver being made and would there for provent the only weapon in existance that could harm him.

  16. #16
    Hmm, this discussion makes me think of a question.. Y'know how Raziel was purified through all of the forges in defiance right? And this pure forgery of the reaver is what uncorrupted Kain when the wraith blade merged with Kain? Thats how Kain could see EG... My question is, can the soul reaver harm EG even without this anti-corruption business? I mean if you think about it.. The Soul Reaver itself (Which has not changed at all since BO1.. it is still the same reaver with the same capabilities, I think, despite Raziel's journey during defiance).. But the reaver itself CAN harm EG, and most probably always could have. This means that BO1 Kain (fledgeling) could theoretically have harmed EG. The only thing stopping him, of course, is that he could not see him. But theoretically if fledgeling Kain were to throw the reaver at a place where EG coincidentally resided, he would harm him.

    So lets take a step back a bit. The reaver (the weapon which can harm EG) has remained unaltered. Whats altered is Kain's ability to see EG. How did this come about: Kain allows Raziel to live in SR2, and hence Raziel endows kain with purity. Makes you wonder why Moebius and EG allowed Kain to change history during SR2's ending... Afterall Kain has no free will so Moebius could see everything Kain would do.. And if you think about it, it really wouldnt matter if Kain is left alive for all eternity. He cannot harm EG as long as he is still corrupted. So technically, if moebius would simply have allowed Raziel to get sucked into the reaver, Kain would never have been purified and hence would never be a threat. o.O Am I not getting something here?

  17. #17
    Anything physical could harm the EG(The WB wasn't physical), but no one could see him.....

  18. #18
    (btw im really sorry about this wall of text i just got into the swing of things and like this story line lol)

    hmmm no, i dont think just any old phisical thing can harm him, i think its a lot more complecated than that as raziel would have simply tryed attacking him with some sword he found from a human in SR2 or Defiance. that or things like the citidel would have hurt him.

    in order to try and explain my thoughts i'll have to put down the paradox's that are known (and one posible one):

    1 you have raziel entering the sword, simply because he has a copy of his future soul that has already entered the blade, meaning that at some point he will have to enter the blade

    2 is the soul reaver being able to grant kain the abiltiy to see the EG. if you look along the story line the reaver is ment to take the following steps:

    be taken by kain > lost to hylden lord then retrived > broken on raziel > picked up by raziel in soul form > travils back in time with raziel > repairs its past self > used to kill kain > used to get raziel into the blade > repeat

    however because of raziels refusal to kill kain it then changed to:

    be taken by kain > lost to hylden lord then retrived > broken on raziel > picked up by raziel in soul form > travils back in time with raziel > repairs its past self > removed from raziel before it consumed him > (as blood reaver)claimed by kain once more > (as blood reaver) attuned with the ballence emblem > travils to the future with kain to time that the pillers will fall > (soul reaver) imbued with the elements > (both) used on one another (however no paradox of the blade braking as it has not got raziels soul inside yet) > (soul reaver) made pure and uncorrupt > raziel enters the blade and the older vertion of raziels soul is used to uncorrupt and heal kain (see the cut sceen before the boss) > EG fight> unknown events > repeat.

    3 raziel feeds the ED and in turn the Soul reaver devourse souls. it can be debated if the EG can refuse a soul but their are some cut sceens that put it across that he is fed a soul as soon as it is taken devoured by one of his minnions/raziel.

    4 if a paradox is going to take place then the eliment that is the source of the paradox is removed/altered. this is told to you in SR2 by kain and is best known for the shatering of the reaver on raziel. in this example the sorce of the paradox is the soul of the blade trying to eat raziel, however raziel must have the soul bound to him in order to be trapped in the blade so the blade is on the reseaving end of the paradox. however if it is considered that the soul reaver still feeds souls to the EG then you have the paradox i mentioned earlyer about the EG devouring his own soul.

    the paradox this time is not with the soul in the blade and is not with the blade itself as if these were broken then they would not be around for kain to pick up (in his personal past) and then broken on raziel (in the soul reavers personal future) meaning that the only thing that can be on the resiving end of the paradox is the EG himself as time could still take on its events if he was removed (taking into account that EG's involvment with raziels rezurection has be questionaly even to raziel, after all other vampires has been able to do the same as him exept they needed their original body so in theory it would be posible for raziel and kain to have taken all of their steps without the EG).

    now, if you take into accont that in SR2 when ever the reaver was imbued it then made raziel stronger, whats to say that raziel was not also effected by the soul reaver being made uncorrupt. this would then mean that because his soul was then trapped in the blade the blade could also notice the presence of the EG after all you have to notice how few times the EG actually damages the area around him, true the part with the vampire citidel was done by him but never have i seen any any holes in the walls left by his tentacles, even when kain can finally see him you dont see any damage to the wall that the EG is on.

    this in turn has lead me to belive that with the changing of events that kain and raziel have done they have unvitingly make a wepon that can recognise that the EG is there as he seems to have some type of phasing ability that means he can pass throught anything at will without leaving a mark unless he wants to.

    so to answer you question you post Kazamethe reaver has been changed a lot from the one in BO1, even down to who is holding it.

    the second part of you post i will answer with this, thats what their idea was all along. in SR2 mobious was trying to force raziel into the reaver, hotice how he "forgot his staff" when raziel fixed the reaver, and how he disabled it so raziel had to use the blood reaver. also the taking him to the future with only one posible (and too convinient) was of getting back. this was all dont to get raziel into the reaver and to stop it from being uncorrupted.

    after this failed mobious and the EG's main focuse was on trying to get the two to kill/trap the other. EG's method was to try and get raziel trapped in the spectral relm and thus unable to get even close to the blade, then when all else failed he made 2 desporate attampt to stop events from taking place:
    1 from stopping raziel from clensing the soul reaver
    2 by trapping kain and raziel in the citadel

  19. #19
    I understand what you're saying, mort, about the soul reaver actually being different in this cycle of time in particular (it is housing a "purified" raziel as opposed to the unpurified raziel that would have originally been there during BO1's play-time-line.

    however, in my second part I was refering to the fact that if Kain wouldn't have been able to save raziel (at the end of sr2) then raziel would have entered the blade, kain NOR the soul reaver would have been healed/purified, and Kain would not be a threat to EG. Now, my point was that since Kain does not have free will, moebius can tell exactly what kain will do. So moebius probably knew kain would try to save raziel from the blade in sr2. So why wasn't kain stopped? Moebius' staff would have done its work, easily i might add. You might be forgetting that although ANYONE in nosgoth can change history (just by using two soul reavers), only raziel can truly hide his intentions from EG and his forces.

  20. #20
    This is why I love LoK, the plot has so many complex layers and is riddled with Time Physics that it makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

    But yea mort you got it right, that's what happened.
    "Damn you, Kain! You are not God! This act of genocide is unconscionable! " ~ Raziel, Soul Reaver

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazame View Post
    Y'know how Raziel was purified through all of the forges in defiance right?
    The Wraith Blade was purified, not Raziel.

    My question is, can the soul reaver harm EG even without this anti-corruption business? I mean if you think about it.. The Soul Reaver itself (Which has not changed at all since BO1.. it is still the same reaver with the same capabilities, I think, despite Raziel's journey during defiance).. But the reaver itself CAN harm EG, and most probably always could have.
    Yes, and the reason I believe is that it's the only weapon that can harm the EG in both realms it exists at once -- Spectral and Material. The Wraith Blade alone wasn't enough. A physical counterpart was needed.

    This means that BO1 Kain (fledgeling) could theoretically have harmed EG. The only thing stopping him, of course, is that he could not see him. But theoretically if fledgeling Kain were to throw the reaver at a place where EG coincidentally resided, he would harm him.
    Probably, provided any cave Kain ventured into had a part of that squid residing in it.

    Makes you wonder why Moebius and EG allowed Kain to change history during SR2's ending... Afterall Kain has no free will so Moebius could see everything Kain would do..
    Moebius and the EG are also bound by fate. Moebius can't simply decide to do something differently one day because he knows the time stream's potential course. But, that's not why he didn't intervene to stop Kain. First of all, there's only one thing that could have stopped Kain in Moebius' possession. Kain's way too powerful for him otherwise, so he would have needed to use the staff in order to disable Kain. The problem with this is the staff would have also disabled the Wraith Blade again. With the Wraith Blade disabled, it cannot turn the Reaver back on Raziel, nor coax him into the sword. So, Moebius tries to intervene, theoretically if he could choose to, which he can't, Raziel doesn't go into the sword. The only possible way Raziel is going to go into that blade is if Moebius stays out of it. Moebius is also too preoccupied with Malek and everything else going on to vanish and track Kain down before he gets there.

    Now, let's also look at fate and paradoxes ... again. They always come up in discussion.

    Let's go back to when Kain kills William the Just again. You'll remember that Kain grew up with a different history than what he brings about in the past. He always goes back into the past and faces William, yet this time he kills him and changes time's flow around this paradox. However, even though Moebius always goes back to give the Reaver to William and even though Kain always goes back to face him with his version of the Reaver, time's original account for that event was written differently. The point is, just because a paradoxical situation happens, the outcome changing is never a guarantee.

    Before Kain succeeds this time in killing William, he fails and to the point, time has written already that he fails. There's a probable chance during the paradox that things will change and I believe it's because of the free will both Wraith Blade versions, or one and of Raziel possess when facing and trying to destroy, or with the potential to destroy, one another. Let's think of those two entities clashing like this:

    Two boxers, completely evenly matched, face each other. It's close and goes the distance, but one pulls away at the final round to win. A rematch is scheduled and they face each other again. Close again, until the final round, but this time, the other boxer eeks out a victory. In this tug of war against a near identical opponent, even though one has won one time and both have fought to completely counter the other for the entire fight, all that has to change is the instant, even the time of the instant, where one outdoes the other just slightly.

    Back to Kain being saved by Raziel. Before Raziel made his choice to save Kain there in William the Just's tomb, he chose differently on the timeline that has been written, meaning there was a time that played out before where Kain was killed by Raziel, even though he still tried the same way to convince Raziel not to. The same can be said then for the end of SR2 when Kain's alive to pull out the Reaver. Even though we do not play through it, there's a whole loop of time written already where Kain doesn't succeed. If he did, then there wouldn't have been a paradox. Moebius, bound by fate to that timeline before the change as he is, would also know that Kain fails there. There is no guarantee of Kain pulling that blade out in the least. Kain is destined to fail in this moment, just as Raziel was destined to kill Kain in William the Just's chapel, just as Kain was destined to fail in killing William in the first place. However, just like the times we see the loop play on itself again, things went in the way not destined. How? Raziel against Raziel. If only this time, one of the Wraith Blades, or indeed Raziel, himself, acts only slightly differently, or both, like say when Kain's pulling out the blade in SR2, but Raziel had let go and gave into it too early, then Kain fails. What if Raziel had given up even a moment before Kain told him to finally let go and give into the blade? If he's early, which I suspect is what originally happens, then Kain goes to pull out the sword, but it's just a hair too late.

    Anyway, these are the reasons Moebius doesn't intervene. A. He's bound to fate that he can't change his choices. B. He hasn't a real choice but to let it happen, since if he tries to stop it, his only option is to use the staff which will disable the event as it disables the Wraith Blade. C., As far as time is concerned here, Kain fails in stopping Raziel from being absorbed into the blade anyway.


    And if you think about it, it really wouldnt matter if Kain is left alive for all eternity. He cannot harm EG as long as he is still corrupted. So technically, if moebius would simply have allowed Raziel to get sucked into the reaver, Kain would never have been purified and hence would never be a threat. o.O Am I not getting something here?
    If you'll note the mural the EG refers to with Kain holding the Reaver, it was his destiny that mattered all along. If he remains alive, as the Scion of Balance, it is his destiny to wield that blade and bring balance back to Nosgoth. It appears his destiny, partly, is to be able to stop the EG, which the EG has deduced. A blade with no wielder is just a sword -- an immobile piece of metal (and spirit inside, of course). Just like a gun is just a gun without someone to fire it. It only becomes deadly in the right hands. Kain's hands are the deadly hands the EG is afraid of. He must be eliminated, according to the EG's thinking, which is why Moebius wanted him dead so badly. Moebius, being his good servant and all...


    The other part of this I am not understanding. if Moebius would have simply allowed Raziel to be absorbed? When? Are you saying before the paradoxes on the timeline we never see, before Kain kills William? If so, that timeline had Raziel go into the blade at a different point. One we don't know, but I suspect it might have even been after he had purified the Wraith Blade in the Spirit Forge and Kain remained alive, just like it happens now. Moebius and the EG were trying to avoid this outcome (because that is there fate to do so) and by having Kain kill William, time alters to the point Raziel never gets past base 1, as it were, with Kain winding up removed in William's Chapel. There is no longer a Kain to prevent Raziel from almost going into the sword after killing his own human self. You see how the games are hinting that now we've almost come full circle again? They always are about that in spades...

  22. #22
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    (had to break this post up into two)

    Anything physical could harm the EG(The WB wasn't physical), but no one could see him.....
    No, I doubt this entirely. Only the Soul Reaver can harm the Elder God.

    be taken by kain > lost to hylden lord then retrived > broken on raziel > picked up by raziel in soul form > travils back in time with raziel > repairs its past self > used to kill kain > used to get raziel into the blade > repeat
    It's not lost to the Hylden Lord before the paradox at the end of SR2. There is no Hylden Lord, or BO2, for that matter.

    made pure and uncorrupt
    However, this is where you really are off. Raziel purified the Wraith Blade -- his future self. He does not purify his own self before going into the blade. He's the same Wraith he's been, for the most part (you might say a bit more adept in the TK department from Turel's soul, but that's about it).

    whats to say that raziel was not also effected by the soul reaver being made uncorrupt.
    If Raziel is purified along with the Wraith Blade, then when time loops back onto itself, and indeed in the very moment he purifies the Wraith Blade, he would be doubling the purification, or something ridiculous. Raziel also doesn't gain any strength from the purification either. He has to go into the sword just as he is in order to be purified millenia later. But, this has nothing to do with Raziel sensing the EG, or not. Raziel, without purification from the Spirit Forge, could always see the EG...

    after all you have to notice how few times the EG actually damages the area around him, true the part with the vampire citidel was done by him but never have i seen any any holes in the walls left by his tentacles, even when kain can finally see him you dont see any damage to the wall that the EG is on.
    The tentacles coming through are from the same holes, replacing the ones cut off when Kain faces him, and it's quite clear the EG has physically tore through the bottom of the chamber with them, and itself. You'll note the tentacles popping first through the floor when Raziel enters the Spirit Forge and the subsequent drainage of the water from the Spirit Forge chamber when the EG's tentacles recede through those holes back when Raziel activated the forge... You'll also note the fact all places seen with the EG are tunneled through, where its body literally burrowed through the places.

    this in turn has lead me to belive that with the changing of events that kain and raziel have done they have unvitingly make a wepon that can recognise that the EG is there as he seems to have some type of phasing ability that means he can pass throught anything at will without leaving a mark unless he wants to.
    I don't think so. But, even if he were to have a phasing ability, he'd have had it since the beginning. The Reaver hasn't changed in any way that would make this happen suddenly...

    I understand what you're saying, mort, about the soul reaver actually being different in this cycle of time in particular (it is housing a "purified" raziel as opposed to the unpurified raziel that would have originally been there during BO1's play-time-line.
    It isn't housing a purified Raziel. I leave you to read the post before this and this one for the rest.

    I think I've exceeded my quota for number of words that stem from purify in one post...

    Edit: And woe to me for misspelling tentacles and then correcting it with what I did... Lord have mercy

  23. #23
    Hylden, thanks for your in-depth analysis and explanation, it really helped. I guess I didn't add the fact that moebius himself is bound my history as well, into the equation, and had thought he could simply run around and make sure history goes his way; on the contrary, history makes moebius move ITS way.

    However, it is making me think about the time theory in the world of nosgoth, and I still think that if you take it completely logically and systematically, a different outcome should technically have been produced. Listen:

    Whenever someone changes history, fate reshuffles itself to accommodate the change, but it takes the path of least resistance. So for something to have occurred where it previously has not, it would follow that there would be absolutely NO way for the current of time to flow any differently. Otherwise, it would do so. So in the context of SR2, as long as Kain lived, there would be absolutely NOTHING that could hinder him from reviving raziel, for if there was he would not do so. All due to his failure to die at williams chapel.

    I find this a little hard to swallow. We must remember that when fate must accommodate the change in history, this influences the actions of anyone who was, in effect, changed by history's reshuffling. So in essence, what you are sort of suggesting, Hylden, is that although Kain's actions (no, his very existence) has changed... Moebius' has not. Yes, it is a fact that Moebius is constrained to fate, but fate itself must hold some sense to it also. It would not be plausible for the hunter to stop hunting the prey and second time after his first was faltered, and write it off as fate. Fate should know what common sense dictates.

    Now, I know that BESIDES that, there is still the problem of Moebius' staff affecting both Kain's heart and Raziel's wraith-blade at the same time, resulting in a stalemate of sorts as you have suggested. But I still just find it hard to swallow that with just ONE monumental change of history (Kain's survival) fate's path of least resistence ends up being what it is. I agree that it would be tremendously hard to move the plot forward if the creators were PURELY systematic though, so I sympathize and have no quarrels with their management. I am just simply speculating and trying to ignite further discussion. You're probably one of the best and reknowned "scholars" of the LOK universe, at least from what I see on these boards. Do you have any commentaries to add to this idea?

  24. #24
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    So in the context of SR2, as long as Kain lived, there would be absolutely NOTHING that could hinder him from reviving raziel, for if there was he would not do so. All due to his failure to die at williams chapel.
    Actually, there is something very stark and impossible to combat that could and should have hindered Kain from removing the sword in time and saving Raziel. Raziel, himself. That's what I meant when I said if Raziel lets go earlier, gives up, then no matter what Kain does, he's not going to succeed. Just by him being alive that doesn't automatically mean Raziel is saved. Time's flow changes to accommodate him still being alive, but it did not change to include Raziel being saved. If it did, there would be no change to time's flow again when Kain pulls out the blade. Destiny, at that point, deemed that Kain would only try and save Raziel, but that Raziel was destined still to go into the blade at that point and Kain was to fail. However, Raziel's free will changed that.

    Just as Kain was destined to die in William's Chapel, and there should have been no reason at all for him not to have, Raziel simply decided otherwise. Here, at the end of SR2, Raziel is destined to give up too soon, just as he was destined to kill Kain. It makes perfect sense to the plot of story and least resistance as it did in William's Chapel. Raziel fights harder, or possibly listens to Kain just a bit more this time, or realizes as we hear the voice over explanation that this is the paradoxical moment Kain might have been waiting for, which becomes his reason for hanging on just until necessary. Whereas, originally, he would simply just not listen to any of it and say, with good reason, to hell with this all. Whichever, Kain would wind up too late because of this, because of him. But, Raziel chose, conciously, or subconsciously, to trust Kain that much more this time and hang on.

    I find this a little hard to swallow. We must remember that when fate must accommodate the change in history, this influences the actions of anyone who was, in effect, changed by history's reshuffling. So in essence, what you are sort of suggesting, Hylden, is that although Kain's actions (no, his very existence) has changed... Moebius' has not. Yes, it is a fact that Moebius is constrained to fate, but fate itself must hold some sense to it also. It would not be plausible for the hunter to stop hunting the prey and second time after his first was faltered, and write it off as fate. Fate should know what common sense dictates.
    Well, the hunter has no choice but to not react if by acting, he will only destroy his meal entirely. If you can go by that analogy. What I mean again is that Moebius knows Kain's alive and will try to rescue Raziel from his fate. However, he can't use the staff, so he has to go on faith that Kain will fail, which time has dictated already is the outcome.

    It is also seems that Moebius weighted the options. Even if Kain suceeds and changes history again, Moebius most likely looked at the possible outcomes of this. As we know from Defiance, Raziel would be moving about from that point in a bit shrouded as to exactly what he would do, but Moebius states, "every path he might choose leads to the same outcome. He will kill you, Kain. In sparing Raziel, you have written your own death sentence." And so I imagine that Moebius, overconfident as he always is, would have decided it was a negligible risk, one that would wind up in the same way anyway. Kain would be killed by Raziel, who then will go into the sword at a later time than before. However, Moebius never looked past Kain's death, it seems, to realize this would also bring about his doom. That Kain would, in fact, not die as he thought.

    So, does Moebius' actions change? His knowledge does, but what his options are to act on are very limited. He can't intervene, or he would, himself, prevent Raziel from going into the blade. There needs to be the Wraith Blade doing its thing in order for that to happen. And, from Moebius' newfound knowledge, Kain and Raziel will play out their destinies one way, or another, anyway. It's just fortunate for us that Raziel keeps things shrouded enough and Moebius isn't so thorough as he should have been, that things wind up playing for the better. At least, from our -- the players' -- perspectives.

  25. #25
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    I don't think Moebius cared that much about Raz at the end of SR2. He wanted Kain dead at William's tomb. When Raz didn't do that, he knew he wouldn't be sucked into the blade at the end of SR2 instantly ( he doesn't know what choice Raziel will make, but he knows the consequences of any choice he might make if they happen.) But he has a plan B. Kain rescuing Raz at the end of SR2 is part of Moebius' plan. He manipulates Raziel into visiting Janos even though Kain has survived, and tears out Janos' heart. Raz comes looking for revenge, and Moebius acts out his original plan anyway, even though he knows it won't work. He has a backup plan-put Janos' heart in Kain so Raz has to kill him to revive Janos. BUT...he doesn't want Raziel to retrieve the heart before it's in Kain, so he uses the events at the end of SR2 to 'sweep him from the board' until after Mortanius creates Kain. But he miscalculates again-Raziel rips out Janos' heart, but Kain survives (officially because his role sustained him, but in my opinion because Kain's original heart steps into the gap). Because Raz ripped out Kain's heart and didn't impale him on the reaver, Moe's plan unravels -NOT because Raz is saved at the end of SR2.

    Does that make sense?

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