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Thread: STEALTH/Cover Discussion Thread

STEALTH/Cover Discussion Thread

  1. #1

    STEALTH/Cover Discussion Thread



    I want to know once and for all. Why are people so annoyed about the damn planned stealth system? What's wrong with it?!

    Eye-of-Sight && Sound Propagation is the most realistic stealth system I can think of. I mean, WHAT IS STEALTH IF NOT HIDING AND NOT ECHOING ANY SOUND WHATSOEVER?!?!?!

    Would you prefer, just as a comparison, to crouch in the shadow in FRONT of an NSF guy? Sounds pretty bloody realistic, right?

    If you really want to do that, though, I'm sure a stealth augmentation is in bound (the game must have some stealth auggie as a gameplay element, or else augs wouldn't be as fun...), and if not, mod it for god's sake. Keep the community alive.

    This concludes my GRRRR-RANT!



    ________
    Link to old topic:
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75113

  2. #2
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    Because if you look past the sugar-coated talk, it looks like there's no stealth system in first person at all in this game. Line of sight, enemy vision angles and reaction to sound? That's what funking Quake had. Would you say Quake has a stealth system?

  3. #3
    See, there isn't much more to stealth than the team who works for the company which produces the Thief series. What's their system?

  4. #4
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    Maybe I'm just too tired, but I don't understand what you're saying.

    EDIT: Anyway, shadow-based sneaking might not be too realistic, but it gives you the option to stay hidden while observing your enemies. With a line of sight only system, if you can see them, they can see you, unless their backs are turned. There's nothing more satisfying in Thief than to have a guard look at the spot you're in from 2 meters and not notice you. In DX3, such a thing will be impossible, unless they make the guards extremely myopic a'la MGS.

    Speaking of MGS, if there's no light/shadow based sneaking, how about camouflage, as simple as in MGS4 or as complicated as in MGS3?

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by van_HellSing
    Because if you look past the sugar-coated talk, it looks like there's no stealth system in first person at all in this game. Line of sight, enemy vision angles and reaction to sound? That's what funking Quake had. Would you say Quake has a stealth system?
    As one of the best quake players ranked number 1 in the world in the RA and Defrag ladders for quite some time, I know Q 1 - 4 all inside and out. They had 0 stealth system, none whatso ever. Your analogy was quake world... a MULTIPLAYER ARENA ACTION game. I don't think one should have to point out the obvious and say HELLO, WAKE UP -- THERE WASN'T EVEN ANYTHING TO HIDE BEHIND. QW was all open levels, box's were used as step ladders to get to ledges and that's about it. Lets not even forget the obvious... there is 0 AI in QW unless your talking about bots, wich are intended to mimic real players in an arena environment. Needless to say, there was no advantage to tying to stay hidden in Quake... it was about moving faster then your opponent..... Sheesh circle strafe jumping would pwn anyone who stood still or even ran, if you couldn't CSJ then you were pretty much loosing any match you played in QW Q2 Q3 and Q4, Q4 they added in Slide Jumping so you could turn without loosing speed. An alternative to U-Jumping in Q3 with CPM rules enabled.

    If you were to play any quake with a single player with the exception of 4, you would notice it being like doom or duke nukem 3d. Enemies always knew when you were in the room END OF STORY. Didn't matter if you walked/crouched/ran in guns blazing, you couldn't sneak up on enemies period the end. DX3 is more like Tenchu... if you wanna get a feel of what the stealth system is gonna be like, look up some videos of Tenchu Stealth Assasins, and expect it to be about 5 times more accurate, as tenchu is really really old. So in other words your saying the only way to hide is in a shadow? That's it! the only one possible way to sneak is with shadows? So if your outside broad day, I guess on must be playing an action game then? Come on, I mean no disrespect and I certainly don't mean to insult you but that is what your saying. Shadows = Only Stealth Possible In Games. O.S.P.I.G. at least it's productive, you gave us a new acronym.

  6. #6
    Maybe I'm tired I was just asking what was Thief's stealth system made of. In addition to that, I was pointing out that the teams must have people who work for both games and/or people who they can consult with.

  7. #7
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    I don't like dumbing the stealth system down to only cover-based stealth, and here's why:

    1. Shadow stealth was in the first game (not messing with what worked should be enough reason).
    2. When cover-based stealth fails, you should be able to lurk in shadows as a last line of defense. So many times in Deus Ex, a guard would turn around and come looking for me around a wall. I'd go into a room with not much to hide behind, but fortunately there was a rather dark corner I could escape to.

    If line-of sight stealth is all we have, I will be uncovered often, and thanks to recharging health, I will be killing pretty much every guard in the game. They'll keep coming for me, and a complete bloodbath is spawned just because a guard caught my foot sticking out of a doorway.

  8. #8
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    Laokin - nope. You're wrong. I'm talking about the original Quake. The enemies don't attack you unless they see you (so, if their backs are turned and they're not aware of you, they won't attack - check out the beginning of Grisly Grotto if you don't remember), also, I'm not sure about that, but if they don't see you but you fire a weapon near them (not at them), they become aware too.

    I dabbled some in map creation (just for myself, never released anything), and I found you could actually make an attempt at a stealth level, with memorising monster patrol routes etc.

    This is not to say Quake has a stealth system.

    This is to say that DX3 doesn't have one either (at least not in first person).

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Tracer Tong
    Maybe I'm tired I was just asking what was Thief's stealth system made of. In addition to that, I was pointing out that the teams must have people who work for both games and/or people who they can consult with.
    Well Thief 1 &2 are a completely different animal than Thief 3. 1&2 were FPS's with sprites, not even models yet. Thief 3 was on the same engine as IW. I can vouch that Thief 3 was based on shadows, but this actually made sense. Thief was ALWAYS night time and took place some where around the middle ages i.e. there was no light bulbs, candles and torches, and water arrows. So you could intentionally make it dark, plus Garret wore dark leather clothing resembling something of a ninja. I would imagine it'd be quite hard to see a guy completely in brown/black with 0 light sources inside a building with hardly any windows. DX could of used light and let you shut off switches and shoot out bulbs, but face the facts here. You break into a top secret military facility every guard will have a flash light, you flick a switch they flick another one that puts the same lights back on, you flip it again your cover would so be blown.... If you were to shoot lights out they'd hear the bulbs break and the glass hit the floor... even if no one was around to hear it, if they patrolled by said light, they would see broken glass on the floor. It just doesn't work, I some how don't see our top secret spies of the 21st century running around achieving objectives by shoot out light bulbs like Sam Fischer. The idea of shadows in a game that's not going to be dark, would force you to make the game dark just so you could actually have a stealth system in tact. It fundamentally is a bad design decision to keep it based on light. Although, basing it on light AND line of sight would have been the obvious way to go... would be nice for certain areas of the game, as some place in the length of DX3 has to be at least semi dark, maybe some sewers? All really depends on level design.... it's still better overall than a light only system.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by WhatsHisFace
    I don't like dumbing the stealth system down to only cover-based stealth, and here's why:

    1. Shadow stealth was in the first game (not messing with what worked should be enough reason).
    2. When cover-based stealth fails, you should be able to lurk in shadows as a last line of defense. So many times in Deus Ex, a guard would turn around and come looking for me around a wall. I'd go into a room with not much to hide behind, but fortunately there was a rather dark corner I could escape to.

    If line-of sight stealth is all we have, I will be uncovered often, and thanks to recharging health, I will be killing pretty much every guard in the game. They'll keep coming for me, and a complete bloodbath is spawned just because a guard caught my foot sticking out of a doorway.
    A combination of light and cover would be great (but on the other hand, what would you do in real life? Run away outdoors, lock yourself inside a room indoors? (which I hope could be done)) and, yes, this specific case you mentioned pretty much turns the DX3 experience around. Very true and very disturbing.

  11. #11
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    Well Thief 1 &2 are a completely different animal than Thief 3. 1&2 were FPS's with sprites, not even models yet.


    Funniest thing I read ALL MONTH

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by van_HellSing
    Laokin - nope. You're wrong. I'm talking about the original Quake. The enemies don't attack you unless they see you (so, if their backs are turned and they're not aware of you, they won't attack - check out the beginning of Grisly Grotto if you don't remember), also, I'm not sure about that, but if they don't see you but you fire a weapon near them (not at them), they become aware too.

    I dabbled some in map creation (just for myself, never released anything), and I found you could actually make an attempt at a stealth level, with memorising monster patrol routes etc.

    This is not to say Quake has a stealth system.

    This is to say that DX3 doesn't have one either (at least not in first person).
    I beg to differ, I have Q1 installed on my computer with tenebrae. It's a proximity thing, when you get off the elevator in the first level there is 2 dogs and a guard. The guard is just coincidentally facing backwards at first. The second you step off the elevator the dogs comes running and the guy starts shooting. It matters not the way he's facing. If you don't believe me have a look into the source of Quake, since it's open.... there are no complex line of sight codes, just map triggers.

  13. #13
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    Considering what you just wrote about Thief 1&2, I can't take anything you say seriously.

    Also, do play Grisly Grotto and experiment, it's a good level for that.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by van_HellSing
    Considering what you just wrote about Thief 1&2, I can't take anything you say seriously.

    Also, do play Grisly Grotto and experiment, it's a good level for that.
    Oh I didn't say I can only vouch for thief 3? And i'm sorry but thief 1 and 2 are fp, and I didn't mention anything other then sprites and to my knowledge the first one was, and I thought it was like the Duke 3D HRP, that replaces the sprites with models.... wow, means I'm not credible? Your just being ridiculous now.... I never played thief 1 or 2, I only played 3 which is why I said I can vouch for thief 3.

  15. #15
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    Thief: The Dark Project uses motion-captured 3D models. Thief: The Dark Project is steampunk-fantasy (which places it nowhere near the medieval period, since not only is it not set in our universe, but also doesn't really resemble any one epoch of it), with electrical lights alongside gas lamps and torches. Thief 2: The Metal Age took the steampunk bit even further, introducing art-deco style and steam-powered robots.

    You should play the games sometime they're great.

    Don't weasel your way out of your claims about T1 & T2. You presented them as facts.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by van_HellSing
    Considering what you just wrote about Thief 1&2, I can't take anything you say seriously.

    Also, do play Grisly Grotto and experiment, it's a good level for that.
    Quake 1 is a sprite-fps too dontcha know

  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by WhatsHisFace
    I don't like dumbing the stealth system down to only cover-based stealth, and here's why:

    1. Shadow stealth was in the first game (not messing with what worked should be enough reason).
    2. When cover-based stealth fails, you should be able to lurk in shadows as a last line of defense. So many times in Deus Ex, a guard would turn around and come looking for me around a wall. I'd go into a room with not much to hide behind, but fortunately there was a rather dark corner I could escape to.

    If line-of sight stealth is all we have, I will be uncovered often, and thanks to recharging health, I will be killing pretty much every guard in the game. They'll keep coming for me, and a complete bloodbath is spawned just because a guard caught my foot sticking out of a doorway.
    Just because you had something, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing to take things away. DX:IW had universal ammo, but I severely doubt anyone here would want it in the third. Just as I think light and dark stealth is usually poorly implemented. Unless it's literally pitch black (meaning you can't see without lights yourself) someone crouching directly in front of you is pretty damn noticable (If you want to see what I mean, go paintballing at night. You might not notice an arm sticking out behind a tree, but you will notice some fool out in the open). From a purely common-sense-perspective, I'm glad that this particular aspect of stealth is gone - it's unrealistic.
    Originally Posted by Tracer Tong
    A combination of light and cover would be great (but on the other hand, what would you do in real life? Run away outdoors, lock yourself inside a room indoors? (which I hope could be done)) and, yes, this specific case you mentioned pretty much turns the DX3 experience around. Very true and very disturbing.
    Yes, I do remember having the option to lock doors, which could make key management very important (say only the top ranked gaurd have keys, and there's a group of grunts chasing you. Instant moment to catch your breath and hopefully slip away somewhere else). However, I don't think that the light/cover system could still work properly. Whoever suggested the camouflage system, perhaps I could see that, but I have yet to see a game truly nail light and dark stealth, save for Splinter Cell (which is a purely stealth-orientated game).
    "Square Root of 912.04 is 30.2... It all seemed so harmless..."

  18. #18
    IMHO it's all about great AI and a realistic stealth system.

    The latter is probably achieved, with locking doors and such it would be as perfect as it could become for a game of this genre. Most games with line-of-sight stealth only recognize maps (i.e. BSPs) as their obstacles and not dynamic objects. With today's computing power I think that full line-of-sight stealth system would be awesome and achievable.

    About the former, we'll just have to wait and see...

  19. #19
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    So what does everyone think about the idea to have camouflage as a part of stealth?

    I mean, since it's a prequel, why not remove the inviso-camo and replace it with something less advanced and more tricky to use?

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Romeo
    Just because you had something, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing to take things away. DX:IW had universal ammo, but I severely doubt anyone here would want it in the third. Just as I think light and dark stealth is usually poorly implemented. Unless it's literally pitch black (meaning you can't see without lights yourself) someone crouching directly in front of you is pretty damn noticable (If you want to see what I mean, go paintballing at night. You might not notice an arm sticking out behind a tree, but you will notice some fool out in the open). From a purely common-sense-perspective, I'm glad that this particular aspect of stealth is gone - it's unrealistic.
    That's a good argument, but saying "unrealistic" is un-needed. Realism in games have been talked about for years, but in the end they are just that - games. Games don't have to follow the rules that we have in our world, even if it often makes the more immersive. I haven't exactly gotten a clear picture how the supposed "coversystem" works, so I can't really say nothing on the subject. I agree that it tends to get bit unrealistic time to times, but I wouldn't play out the shadows totally, in pitchblack areas AI shouldn't be able to see the player without the appropiate "gear". I do hope it feels intuitive, and "realistic" but not gimmicky as in Gears of War - which relied on the whole "cover GoW style" -thing. Without knowing anything about the other design aspects that can affect stealth/cover/vision.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by van_HellSing
    So what does everyone think about the idea to have camouflage as a part of stealth?

    I mean, since it's a prequel, why not remove the inviso-camo and replace it with something less advanced and more tricky to use?
    Similar to that of seen in Metal Gear Solid 4? I know there are some guys that really appreciate the stealth gameplay aspect, but it would need a lot of thought to work in properly, not making it too gimmicky.

  22. #22
    Weasel my way out??? I made an honest mistake that I didn't say was 100% fact, it was off of memory, and I'm sorry I NEVER played them... I said Thief 3 works on shadows. And yes there are many sprites in thief, but the game is 3D like quake 1, get off my nuts. I didn't realize I could get crucified for not playing every game in existence.

  23. #23
    Well, I don't mind, so long as shadows provides at least some cover. But I see the point in the new system. I remember on Liberty Island, I was almost in front of this one patrolling NSF guy, but because I was in a sort of shadowy area, he didn't see me, and I took him out with my riot prod.

    Hopefully, this will make it a little easier to do nonlethal takedowns as well.

  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by Romeo
    Just because you had something, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing to take things away. DX:IW had universal ammo, but I severely doubt anyone here would want it in the third. Just as I think light and dark stealth is usually poorly implemented. Unless it's literally pitch black (meaning you can't see without lights yourself) someone crouching directly in front of you is pretty damn noticable (If you want to see what I mean, go paintballing at night. You might not notice an arm sticking out behind a tree, but you will notice some fool out in the open). From a purely common-sense-perspective, I'm glad that this particular aspect of stealth is gone - it's unrealistic.
    I find it easier to suspend disbelief that hiding in a shadow makes me nearly invisible, than suspending disbelief that after being ripped to shreds by bullets, my body will heal itself to perfection within a little amount of time. If you want to talk about game mechanics that's one thing, but applying the "realistic" argument to a videogame where the protagonist can "bungee jump" using tentacles that come out of his back, or "Kool-aid man" his way through walls to grab enemies on the other side, you're taking a ridiculous approach.

    And in the context of the game, it's gameplay, and the way the game was played, shadow-based stealth was essential, plausible and even defining of what Deus Ex was. Aside from the Thief games, it was the only shadow-based stealth game on the market.

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by Tracer Tong
    See, there isn't much more to stealth than the team who works for the company which produces the Thief series. What's their system?
    Shadows.

    OK, so it's much more then that, but yeah, shadows are big.

    Thief also heavily relies on sounds for sneaking around. Every surface, object, and weapon had sound that would alert guards to your presence.

    Line of site also plays a role, but if you're making a racket it doesn't matter if the guard can see you directly or not. They'll come find you if you're running around on tile floors.

    Still, it's a common occurrence in Thief to have guards walk not a foot in front of you while you're hanging out in a pitch black shadow. There are however diffrent levels of shadows in Thief, something like five darknesses along with full light if I remember correctly. Full light(red on your shadow indicator), two pale shadows(yellow), two moderate shadows(green), and two levels of heavy shadow(dark grey). The guards-walking-past-you trick only worked in the heaviest shadows, while the lighter the shadow was, the further away a guard had to be to not notice you. It's a fair arrangement that makes shadow hiding believable.

    I would hope the DX3 combines all three things, sounds, line of site, and lighting. If they can incorporate a sneaking aspect as tight as Thief's, this will be most interesting indeed.

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