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Thread: battleships obsolete in WW2?

battleships obsolete in WW2?

  1. #1

    battleships obsolete in WW2?

    would you say the battleship was obsolete in world war 2? if so please write why and if not please write why!....

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by chriswpaul16
    would you say the battleship was obsolete in world war 2? if so please write why and if not please write why!....
    Yes the events of december 7 1941 proved that.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    They weren't totally obsolete -- just in their intended form. As shore bombardment ships they were incredibly useful as well as AA escorts.

  5. #5
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    BB in WW2, were best as CV escorts, they kept the other ships AWAY. Which is what they were best at. We never know though, they might make a comeback sometime

  6. #6
    also look at the comparison, how many BB vs BB fights were there in WW2 compared to carrier battles?? the battleships days ended on 7th december, but yet japan continued building huge BBs when resources could hav been put into more useful pieces of equipment

  7. #7

    Smile

    Originally Posted by Jetu
    , they might make a comeback sometime
    Along with the musket and trebuchet

  8. #8
    The Japanese built 3 Yamato class battleships, at 65,000tons (empty) each. Although only two were completed as battleships, with the third ship, Shinano, being converted into an aircraft carrier, from the 200,000tons of material used the Japanese could have built 10 Unryu class carriers, each with an airgroup of 60 planes. Because carriers are comparitively low tech compared to battleships, requiring less specialised construction for items like guns, so most if not all of these could have been availbile in June 1942, in time for Midway, though finding enough aircaft for all these ships could have been a problem. Even with this, I reckon at least half these ships would have been in operation by Midway.

    The effects of the Japanese having so many more carriers would have been huge. At Coral Sea, another two Japanese carriers would most likely have resulted in the loss of both Yorktown and Lexington, without any of the Japanese fleet carriers being put out of operation, even if Shoho was still sunk, leaving Port Moresby open to invasion.

    With the loss of Yorktown, there would only have been two American carriers at Midway, Hornet and Enterprise, who would then be facing down at least 6 and quite possibly more Japanese carriers. The pure luck of the arrival of American Dauntlesses just when the whole Japanese CAP was either refueling or drawn down to low level by the failed Devastator attack would have been negated by the extra Zeros, and if this attack had failed the Japanese could have sunk both Hornet and Enterprise with no great difficulty. Midway Island would have been neutralised, and with at least 10 carriers availible the Japanese would have made short work of Pearl Harbour, leaving most of the Pacific in Japanese hands.

  9. #9

    december 7th

    u cant say december 7th shows that battleships are obsolete.....

    1) they weren't ready for the attack.
    2) they were at anchor

    look at all the american battleships built in WW2 they never lost any that were in operations or on the defence, so it does not show fully that the battleship was obsolete then

  10. #10
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    You don't need to go far to find that aircraft carriers overpower battleships. Not just Pearl Harbour, but also Taranto, Midway, and others.

    Considering that the US won the Pacific theatre with practically only carriers (I mean sure they had other ships, but let's face it; CVs did more overall) is proof enough that not just CVs, but air power in general, is the dominant power.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by chriswpaul16
    u cant say december 7th shows that battleships are obsolete.....

    1) they weren't ready for the attack.
    2) they were at anchor

    look at all the american battleships built in WW2 they never lost any that were in operations or on the defence, so it does not show fully that the battleship was obsolete then
    id say that the events of dec 7th pretty much showed how BBs were obselete, take the Arizona for example.. it was hit by 2 bombs and it sank in the first few minutes of the attack with over 1000 men lost, this was done by one bomb.. even if this was a very very lucky shot, the arizona took years to build and it was destroyed by something that could take maybe a day to assemble., BBs in WW2 were used mainly as escorts for the far more important fleet carriers. also how many BBs have been constructed/designed after pearl habour?? now compare that to aircraft carriers

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by watty14
    id say that the events of dec 7th pretty much showed how BBs were obselete, take the Arizona for example.. it was hit by 2 bombs and it sank in the first few minutes of the attack with over 1000 men lost, this was done by one bomb.. even if this was a very very lucky shot, the arizona took years to build and it was destroyed by something that could take maybe a day to assemble., BBs in WW2 were used mainly as escorts for the far more important fleet carriers. also how many BBs have been constructed/designed after pearl habour?? now compare that to aircraft carriers
    The bomb that sunk Arizona was an specially adapted 16in shell the Japanese had designed just for the Pearl Harbour attack. A normal bomb wouldn't have penetrated as far as the Arizona's magazines. But I agree with the rest of what you said, and your right, the number of carriers built dwarfed battleship production. As an example of this, the US commisioned 8 battleships and 2 battlecruisers following their entry into the war, while in the same period they commisioned 27 fleet carriers and over a hundred escort carriers.

  13. #13

    watts

    watts the arizona was a old world war 1 battleship and the fire control crew was not even ready for the attack so........ its like saying if uss enterprise was at pearl at the attack and it was hit by 1 bomb, i bet it would just get down like the arizona.....

  14. #14

    carrier

    i know that airpower was the dominant use in WW2 but battleships were needed i am saying so therefore they were not obsolete

  15. #15
    I believe Colosseum put it rather well, battleships were obsolete in their original role but still useful. On the other hand, a much cheaper cruiser could fulfill the same role.

  16. #16
    ^^^ exactly, but yes i do agree with chris, that shell could hav hit any ship in the attack and done an eqaully fatal hit

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by watty14
    ^^^ exactly, but yes i do agree with chris, that shell could hav hit any ship in the attack and done an eqaully fatal hit
    All the battleships at Pearl were the old American standard types, including Arizona, so I guess your right.

  18. #18
    The battleships are not effective at their main role anymore in WW2, but in their shore fire support role, they're actully more effective than aircraft does, so they cannot be easily replaced by a cruiser.

    The US Marine do want the Iowa Class BB's massive guns more than missles/high-tech guns.

  19. #19
    the battleships that were obsolite were the new york class bbs. and the north carolina class bbs.

  20. #20
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    Hello. I'm new to this forum, and I'm not a native english speaker, so please be gentle... XD

    BB in WW2, were best as CV escorts, they kept the other ships AWAY. Which is what they were best at. We never know though, they might make a comeback sometime
    There is no point in keeping ships away, if there are no ships to be kept away. A CV is emitting a sphere of over a hundred miles in which nothing moves without the carrier's allowance. So before any battleship will be able to engage an incoming enemy, the enemy will be bombed to hell by the carrier's fighter planes.
    But nonetheless, they have made a comeback. In the 1980s, the Sowiet Navy constructed a new class of heavily armed and nuclear powered battlecruisers, with two ships still in action. The Kirov-class battlecruiser is the largest missile-carrier ever constructed, but it only shares the name and the size with the old capital ships.
    The main armament is rockets and not guns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirov_class_battlecruiser


    u cant say december 7th shows that battleships are obsolete.....

    1) they weren't ready for the attack.
    2) they were at anchor

    look at all the american battleships built in WW2 they never lost any that were in operations or on the defence, so it does not show fully that the battleship was obsolete then
    On Dezember the 10th 1941, japanese airplanes attacked and sunk both HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse - both battleships were ready and moving.
    And american battleships hardly saw any ship-to-ship action during the war. There were some occasions where they engaged japanese battleships, but this happened at night, which gave the radar-equipped american BBs an overwhelming advantage.
    And when they're driving together with the carriers, the japanese concentrated attacks on DDs and CVs - because these were clearly more dangerous than a few BBs with whom could be dealt after the CVs are out of action.


    The battleships are not effective at their main role anymore in WW2, but in their shore fire support role, they're actully more effective than aircraft does, so they cannot be easily replaced by a cruiser.

    The US Marine do want the Iowa Class BB's massive guns more than missles/high-tech guns.
    They were only effective because the targets were little islands. A fighter plane or a cruise missile can deliver explosives hundreds of miles inside a country - a battleship can not.
    So it'll only be able to support landing operations, but supporting troops beyond the shore is impossible.
    And if you'd need big guns for landing operations nowadays, you would equip your ships with them. But new warships don't get big cannon-armament. Even cruisers have only two 127mm guns installed.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by EVA-01
    Hello. I'm new to this forum, and I'm not a native english speaker, so please be gentle... XD
    Welcome to the Battlestations forums, and by the way, you speak excellent english.
    On December the 10th 1941, japanese airplanes attacked and sunk both HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse - both battleships were ready and moving.
    And american battleships hardly saw any ship-to-ship action during the war. There were some occasions where they engaged japanese battleships, but this happened at night, which gave the radar-equipped american BBs an overwhelming advantage.
    And when they're driving together with the carriers, the japanese concentrated attacks on DDs and CVs - because these were clearly more dangerous than a few BBs with whom could be dealt after the CVs are out of action.
    Prince of Wales was the victim of some very bad luck, because while 6 torpedoes hit her, only one actually caused serious damage. The torpedo that struck the join between the propshaft and the hull resulted in the propshaft breaking and flailing around inside the ship, rupturing surrounding compartments along almost half the ships lengh. However the seal between the propshaft and the engine room held, but when the engine was restarted because the extent of the damage was not known this seal was damaged, allowing water to flood the engine room and killing the power to the pumps and the 5.25in AA guns.

    All the other torpedo hits were contained by the TDS and but for that single fateful hit Prince of Wales would not have sunk. Not restarting the engine would have also saved PoW because the loss of power to the pumps was the fatal blow, since this mean't the flooding gradually increased until it overflowed the TDS and spilled over into surrounding compartments.

    Repulse was also a victim, but this time of the skill of the Japanese pilots and the fact that she hadn't been fitted with the torpedo bulges her sistership Renown had been fitted with. While Repulse survived the early attacks, dodging many torpedoes, she was caught in a crossfire of torpedoes coming from two directions and sunk by 5 hits. If she had been fitted with torpedo bulges like Renown then Repulse would likely have survived the 5 hits because of the small warheads of aerial torpedoes.

    If Renown had been substituted in place of Repulse and the fatal hit had not been scored on PoW then most likely both ships would have still been afloat when the fighter cover arrived, and both would likely have made it back to Singapore.

  22. #22
    the battleships that were obsolite were the new york class bbs. and the north carolina class bbs.
    Not at all. The North Carolinas were brand new, fast, heavily armed, and equipped with some of the most modern FC radar and search radars even in 1942.

    Of course the New York class was obsolete... the ers were built in the 1910s. Even with extensive modification, something built that early on just can't compete with ships like North Carolina, South Dakota, Iowa, Alaska, etc. It can be argued that every American old battleship was obsolete. But definitely not the BB-55 class.

  23. #23
    sorry need to catch up more on my history.

  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by David603
    If Renown had been substituted in place of Repulse and the fatal hit had not been scored on PoW then most likely both ships would have still been afloat when the fighter cover arrived, and both would likely have made it back to Singapore.
    Yeah, but even in this case they would've been helpless against the massive air-attacks and forced to retreat. They needed fighter cover because there's no way that they could stand against air raids.

  25. #25

    so eva

    your saying that battleships are obsolete because of the attack from land based aircraft on the hms prince of wales and hms repulse?

    so if i said that carriers are obsolete because they take up alot of the world navies money just to protect a floating airfield as NEEDS! esorts

    and that the hms glorious was attacked by the 2 german battleships off norway and sunk in minutes as well as its escorts.

    so if you ask me i when say a carrier is only as good as a battleship with its escorts as it needs them to live..... if u get a nice BBBG then a battleship can easier make it through if you ask me.

    and with modern day cruise missiles if you havnt heared but in the 1980s the iowa battleships were update with tomahawks and harpoon missiles.

    so in the modern day world a battleship with a battle group is more effective than a carrier battle group as they can fire missiles and not have a problem of having an aircraft being shot down and losing a pilot and millions of dollars.

    and if you say that an aircraft can take it out in 1 dont forget there ae sea sparrow missiles and phalanxs on all ships so whats the chances of an aircraft getting close or the missile even hitting. al tell you f*** all!!!

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