Thread: Future human classes...

Future human classes...

  1. #76
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    Here is one more:


    (click image to enlarge)
    Last edited by RainaAudron; 1st May 2014 at 12:14.

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    A heavy damage magic class called The Disciples
    Lore


    Possible Primary and Secondary Abilities: still work in progress


    Only part posing difficulty to me is the reload mechanism. Mana potion would seem the old school solution, but I'd like something along the lines of crushing a stone, charged with the recharge energy, like in dark souls. Any other suggestions on that or the above mentioned would be more than welcome.
    We already have a class that aligns itself with Anacrothe and a class descended from Azimuth’s former cenobites, as well as a class that inhabits the region of Dark Eden. I don’t think we actually need to make any more tie-ins. It would be nice to see a new order arise, still influenced by the hylden, but with a new purpose and philosophy now that the Hash’ak’gik cult is dead and buried. Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace.

    I definitely like the idea of using the glyph magic and I agree that the hylden should be the influence that leads the human group to the shrines. After all, some of the magic only has an effect on the vampires due to the hylden’s curse. I’d like to bring the start of the story forward a little though, as the hylden were planning to wipe out Nosgoth’s other inhabitants and I’d see them as very unlikely to take on the sharing gods role with humans. I think the elemental glyphs being introduced into Nosgoth by the hylden should be made canon, but only after their banishment, where they are forced to use humans as their tools. If the elemental glyphs were only introduced after the collapse of the pillars then this would also provide an explanation for why Raziel can no longer use this magic after he travels back in time.

    I also like your idea of the glyphs damaging or corrupting the human’s bodies in some way, as I’ve always thought of them as being corrupt elements introduced by the hylden from the Demon Realm. Again, this hasn’t actually been made canon, despite the similarly named “glyph energy” in BO2.

    I would also like to propose a slight variation on the magical effects you’ve described. The glyph elements were also harmful to humans, so this lends itself to two types of attack:
    (1) Harmful to humans – directed attacks to avoid collateral.
    (2) Harmful to only vampires – omnidirectional weaker attack.

    All six glyphs could then be incorporated and you’d have to choose which you would use. I’ll lay it out as I see it:

    Directed
    Telekinesis – short-range directed attack to knock down opponents, but weak and only really for strategy (e.g. to escape, or make opponent vulnerable to others).
    Earth – long-range attack causes targeted earth to explode, emitting shrapnel at vampire (only works targeting earth).
    Fire – long-range fireball… just imagine knocking a pouncing reaver out of the air.
    Omnidirectional
    Water – low damage, scorching water burst.
    Sound – very low damage, but creates disorientation/dizziness effect.
    Sunlight – low damage and creates vision problems for very brief period.

    Each of these would require a recharge period proportional to the power required, as the character would need absorb eldritch (another hint at possible Demon Dimension origin – eldritch means “other worldly”) energy, possibly from the shrine long-distance.

    I do like your sceptre idea, but I’d like to see a class of human that’s hands-free and this one is the obvious choice.

    On a different class of human from this, I would like to see a human class that can use tools to climb. I don’t think that only the vampires should have access to the high ground.

  3. #78
    If you want to connect the SR1 glyphs to the BO2 glyph energy, it would be better to say the glyph shrines were created before the banishment and definitely not refer to the hylden by name, since no one knows who they are at this point. Even in the third/fourth timeline, they would have been laying low in the demon dimension. If they had any influence at all, it would be minimal.

    "Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace." That doesn't sound overly obvious. As long as they're sort of in the shadows and not announcing themselves for all to hear.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 1st May 2014 at 15:52.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  4. #79
    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    If you want to connect the SR1 glyphs to the BO2 glyph energy, it would be better to say the glyph shrines were created before the banishment and definitely not refer to the hylden by name, since no one knows who they are at this point. Even in the third/fourth timeline, they would have been laying low in the demon dimension. If they had any influence at all, it would be minimal.

    "Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace." That doesn't sound overly obvious. As long as they're sort of in the shadows and not announcing themselves for all to hear.
    I agree that the hylden should not be mentioned by name, but I think having them pretend to be gods/a god would create confusion as to whether the Elder God or the hylden were behind it. The hylden did indeed explore powers derived from the Demon Dimensions prior to their banishment, as Janos Aurdon attests in BO1, but it would not make sense to establish the elemental glyphs before their banishment, as at least one of the glyphs (sunlight) would have no effect on their enemies. Additionally, since it would be highly impractical to have a species that cannot touch water and whose members die upon hearing certain sounds, I suspect that the vampires’ reaction to water and sound are also part of their multi-faceted curse. Remember that, though the hylden cannot escape into Nosgoth without Janos and a weakened binding, the demons can come and go as they please and the hylden can still possess humans. Since the humans have also displayed dimensional powers, it is easily feasible that the hylden could have manipulated them into establishing the elemental glyphs in any of the timelines. This would not require the Hylden Lord’s escape and would explain why the glyphs exist in the SR1 timeline despite the glyph network from BO2 never having been introduced. The hylden play the (extreme) patience game and this would make an excellent addition to their establishment of weapons and power in Nosgoth.

    The possession aspect may not sound overly obvious, but if the green, glowing eyes are described then the link becomes more obvious to all who have played Defiance.

  5. #80
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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    If you want to connect the SR1 glyphs to the BO2 glyph energy, it would be better to say the glyph shrines were created before the banishment and definitely not refer to the hylden by name, since no one knows who they are at this point. Even in the third/fourth timeline, they would have been laying low in the demon dimension. If they had any influence at all, it would be minimal.
    This was my intention for the hylden element of the lore. The texts they discovered about the shrines, unknown to them, predated the pillars and were written by the servants of hylden who saw them as Gods like other ancient men did for the ancient vampires. The shrines were an attempt at bring humanity into service as soldiers for the hylden in their losing war against the ancient vampires, shortly before their banishment.

    In the aftermath of the hylden's banishment, the ancient vampires began to purge these hylden disciples and all record & remnants of the hylden civilization. This purge was carried on by the first human circle until they rebelled against what remained of the ancient vampires. After this rebellion, what records and texts remained from these disciples were collected and studied at the direction of Mobius. Mobius was commanded to do this by the Elder God in the first step towards bring the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth.
    After Vorador slaughtered six of the guardians of circle, the surviving three (Mobius, Malek, and Mortanius) decided to seal the texts away from the eyes of the new guardians, keeping them ignorant of what was in motion.

    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    We already have a class that aligns itself with Anacrothe and a class descended from Azimuth’s former cenobites, as well as a class that inhabits the region of Dark Eden. I don’t think we actually need to make any more tie-ins. It would be nice to see a new order arise, still influenced by the hylden, but with a new purpose and philosophy now that the Hash’ak’gik cult is dead and buried. Perhaps the hylden could portray themselves as spirits, keen to aid the living against the vampire menace.
    The disciples don't align themselves with Anacrothe or any of the circle guardians at this point (that was simply part of their origin story) and Dark Eden (more specifically the Castle) is where they escaped from. They inhabit an underground tunnel network, along with the underground city called the Human Citadel, which they crafted over the time of Kain's empire. The disciples are in this fight in a bid to take over Nosgoth once the vampires are exterminated, and who is to say that the hylden aren't exerting some type of influence or control over them through these glyphs.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 1st May 2014 at 21:53. Reason: double posting

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    This was my intention for the hylden element of the lore. The texts they discovered about the shrines, unknown to them, predated the pillars and were written by the servants of hylden who saw them as Gods like other ancient men did for the ancient vampires. The shrines were an attempt at bring humanity into service as soldiers for the hylden in their losing war against the ancient vampires, shortly before their banishment.

    In the aftermath of the hylden's banishment, the ancient vampires began to purge these hylden disciples and all record & remnants of the hylden civilization. This purge was carried on by the first human circle until they rebelled against what remained of the ancient vampires. After this rebellion, what records and texts remained from these disciples were stored at the direction of Mobius. Mobius was commanded to do this by the Elder God in the first step towards bring the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth.
    After Vorador slaughtered six of the guardians of circle, the surviving three (Mobius, Malek, and Mortanius) decided to seal the texts away from the eyes of the new guardians, keeping them ignorant of what was in motion.
    They could have had followers that saw them as gods, sure, but I feel it doesn’t quite fit the hylden ethos. They were not reliant on humans like Kain’s vampire brood, because they needed no blood. They are obsessed with empowering themselves through technology and magic and it was shown to be their plan to use the Mass to wipe out all vampires and all of humanity. That said, I can’t deny the possibility of worship.

    With regards to the shines, as I said before, there would no reason to establish the shrines before the raising of the pillars, as they would predate the curse that their effectiveness is based on. At the very least, the sunlight glyph would not have had any use and I’d imagine the same applies to the sound and water glyphs too. The hylden most likely used some of this magic themselves, but not the shrines. Also, Moebius would not have been commanded to help bring the hylden back into the world. Remember at the end of Defiance, Moebius says, “the hylden are merely and inconvenient consequence”, implying that their presence on Nosgoth is not desired by the Elder God.

    I do like your idea of Mortanius and Moebius hiding away some kind of hylden texts though. Malek would probably not have been included as he was shown to have not been born at the time Moebius and Mortanius turned against the vampires. Perhaps these texts could give some instructions on how to create the shrines and draw the glyph magic into Nosgoth.

    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    The disciples don't align themselves with Anacrothe or any of the circle guardians at this point (that was simply part of their origin story) and Dark Eden (more specifically the Castle) is where they escaped from. They inhabit an underground tunnel network, along with the underground city called the Human Citadel, which they crafted over the time of Kain's empire. The disciples are in this fight in a bid to take over Nosgoth once the vampires are exterminated, and who is to say that the hylden aren't exerting some type of influence or control over them through these glyphs.
    I’m not saying the idea is bad; it’s pretty well crafted. It’s just my personal preference would be not to see too many tie-ins introduced. They add to the feel that the canon is being adhered to and they give it some continuity. However, they can also make the back-story quite closed and restrictive if there isn’t enough new development to counter it. I should say that there are plenty of ideas in your story that are pretty decent.

  7. #82
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    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    They could have had followers that saw them as gods, sure, but I feel it doesn’t quite fit the hylden ethos. They were not reliant on humans like Kain’s vampire brood, because they needed no blood. They are obsessed with empowering themselves through technology and magic and it was shown to be their plan to use the Mass to wipe out all vampires and all of humanity. That said, I can’t deny the possibility of worship.

    True but, even with a full hylden work force like there was in Blood Omen 2, they still kept humans as slaves for menial labor and occasional as guinea pigs for experimentation. They don't need humans like vampires do, but they do find humans handy for such things. Better to experiment on something you look at as a rat than one of your own.

    With regards to the shines, as I said before, there would no reason to establish the shrines before the raising of the pillars, as they would predate the curse that their effectiveness is based on. At the very least, the sunlight glyph would not have had any use and I’d imagine the same applies to the sound and water glyphs too. The hylden most likely used some of this magic themselves, but not the shrines. Also, Moebius would not have been commanded to help bring the hylden back into the world. Remember at the end of Defiance, Moebius says, “the hylden are merely and inconvenient consequence”, implying that their presence on Nosgoth is not desired by the Elder God.

    If that is an issue then let us assume that the curse was not finished when it was released upon the vampires. What if their final act in the onset of their banishment with the formation of the Pillars was originally meant to turn the tide of the war?
    Now let us say the shrines were still in development and humans were used to test it (in order to perfect it as well as remove the side-effects mentioned) as part of this multipronged plan revolving around the curse: afflicting the vampires with the blood thirst (make their human allies now their enemies), sterilizing them to ensure they would have no future generations, making them vulnerable to many of the elements (which from what has been seen was the nature of the ancient vampire's power) rendering them almost powerless against the hylden army that was now capable of unleashing this elemental damage upon them, and (if this is the case) then immortality might have been the side-effect they were working to correct when the banishment caused them to release it.

    Sorry if that pokes holes in any established lore I am unaware of, but please correct me if it does.

    By the way, how about this for the lightning arc Vampmaster?
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 2nd May 2014 at 04:37.

  8. #83
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    Sorry if that pokes holes in any established lore I am unaware of, but please correct me if it does.

    By the way, how about this for the lightning arc Vampmaster?
    Yeah, that looks great as well.

    EDIT: I disagree with whoever said it should be hands free. Just my opinion, but I think the lightning rod would make a cool looking primary weapon and would be more practical for aiming because you could line up the end of it with your target.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 2nd May 2014 at 08:06.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    True but, even with a full hylden work force like there was in Blood Omen 2, they still kept humans as slaves for menial labor and occasional as guinea pigs for experimentation. They don't need humans like vampires do, but they do find humans handy for such things. Better to experiment on something you look at as a rat than one of your own.
    Sure, I’m not against the hylden having used humans in their original war. It’s just that I don’t think it suits their manner to empower them.

    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    If that is an issue then let us assume that the curse was not finished when it was released upon the vampires. What if their final act in the onset of their banishment with the formation of the Pillars was originally meant to turn the tide of the war?
    Now let us say the shrines were still in development and humans were used to test it (in order to perfect it as well as remove the side-effects mentioned) as part of this multipronged plan revolving around the curse: afflicting the vampires with the blood thirst (make their human allies now their enemies), sterilizing them to ensure they would have no future generations, making them vulnerable to many of the elements (which from what has been seen was the nature of the ancient vampire's power) rendering them almost powerless against the hylden army that was now capable of unleashing this elemental damage upon them, and (if this is the case) then immortality might have been the side-effect they were working to correct when the banishment caused them to release it.

    Sorry if that pokes holes in any established lore I am unaware of, but please correct me if it does.
    This is well thought out, but it still doesn’t work.


    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    By the way, how about this for the lightning arc Vampmaster?
    Pretty. Don’t look like elemental glyph magic, but as sorcerers they could have other interesting magic as well.

    By the way, you’ve inadvertently quoted me as typing your response. I like to respond one paragraph at a time too. For this you can break down a quote you take from somebody by putting the start and end [ QUOTE ] tags at the start and end of each paragraph. Hope you find this useful.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    EDIT: I disagree with whoever said it should be hands free. Just my opinion, but I think the lightning rod would make a cool looking primary weapon and would be more practical for aiming because you could line up the end of it with your target.
    It would look cool either way, but, since non-magical classes must use weapons, the only class that could be hands-free would be the magical class. I'd just like to see one included and I think this one would be cool.

    A note to the art developers - I too would like to speak out against any time-travellers. I think you're doing really well with the canon as is and time-travellers would... complicate things.
    Last edited by Ruevergne; 2nd May 2014 at 19:20.

  10. #85
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    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    Sure, I’m not against the hylden having used humans in their original war. It’s just that I don’t think it suits their manner to empower them.
    In the new section I'm saying the hylden weren't trying to empower the humans, but test these glyphs on humans during their development for later use by the hylden. The belief that these glyphs were meant for humans was likely a deception played by the hylden to make the test subjects more compliant for the procedures or maybe it was a delusion made up by the primitive humans in order to make sense of these things that were done to them. I'm sure the hylden would have taken steps to control the test subjects with mechanism within the glyphs that would afford the hylden control and possibly a kill switch.


    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    This is well thought out, but it still doesn’t work.
    In the end, the curse was used in revenge against the vampires that banished them; and perhaps immortality wasn't a side-effect, but a cruel element of the curse meant to severe them from the faith the vampires held so sacred to them. I'm saying that in the beginning of the curses development, it wasn't to be a game changer in the war. Something as technical as the curse would have taken a great deal of time to craft and perfect, and I can't believe that they would put that much energy and resources, that far back from in the war, into something that was meant for when they were defeated as if it was guaranteed. Perhaps the hylden claimed that the purpose of the curse was revenge for their banishment after the fact because that is what the ancient vampires believed it was from the start.

  11. #86
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    In the new section I'm saying the hylden weren't trying to empower the humans, but test these glyphs on humans during their development for later use by the hylden. The belief that these glyphs were meant for humans was likely a deception played by the hylden to make the test subjects more compliant for the procedures or maybe it was a delusion made up by the primitive humans in order to make sense of these things that were done to them. I'm sure the hylden would have taken steps to control the test subjects with mechanism within the glyphs that would afford the hylden control and possibly a kill switch.
    I like the idea that the hylden would have experimented on humans. It fits them very well. However, the elemental glyphs still don’t fit…

    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    In the end, the curse was used in revenge against the vampires that banished them; and perhaps immortality wasn't a side-effect, but a cruel element of the curse meant to severe them from the faith the vampires held so sacred to them. I'm saying that in the beginning of the curses development, it wasn't to be a game changer in the war. Something as technical as the curse would have taken a great deal of time to craft and perfect, and I can't believe that they would put that much energy and resources, that far back from in the war, into something that was meant for when they were defeated as if it was guaranteed. Perhaps the hylden claimed that the purpose of the curse was revenge for their banishment after the fact because that is what the ancient vampires believed it was from the start.


    Sorry, I know having your ideas broken down isn’t nice. It’s just that, if were to bring the creation of the glyph shrines forward to after the second time period in Soul Reaver 2, I really think you’d be on to something.

  12. #87
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    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    Sorry, I know having your ideas broken down isn’t nice. It’s just that, if were to bring the creation of the glyph shrines forward to after the second time period in Soul Reaver 2, I really think you’d be on to something.
    No need for sorry, this is along the lines of what I was hope to get when I first posted about the Disciples. Stories get better written as well as more refined when bounced back and forth.

    I'm not looking to ruin the hylden's image or downplay what the achieved, but in LoK they were not the ultimate enemy, the Elder God was. The Elder God commanded the ancient vampires to go to war against the hylden which resulted in the curse. After the curse, the Elder God ceased to speak to the ancient vampires knowing the rejection would drive most of them to suicide. The Elder God corrupted Mobius, turning him as well as the rest of the human circle against what remained of the ancient vampires and all vampires down the line. If what I said about the texts works out, then it was the Elder God whose schemes brought the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth in the first place.

    As you mentioned, Mobius remarked that the hylden were merely a necessary nuisance and Raziel's final words to Kain were that he would now see the true enemy, which was not the hylden.

    Just to be clear, your contention is that the glyph shrines should be crafted by the hylden during the time surrounding Blood Omen 2?
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 3rd May 2014 at 14:10.

  13. #88

    Human Idea

    I thought about this really fast before work and figured i should share. Tell me your thoughts

    I think the humans need a tank kind of character. One that can take alot of damage and has great crowd control at melee range.

    I find myself body blocking for partners that are low on health quite alot and will happily take a little damage to save my team from a death. So maybe that could be incorporated with a large health pool and maybe like a spiked armor he can activate that hurts vampires for a certain amount of damage whenever they attack while making him take a percentage of damage less.

    Another ability could be maybe even be able to switch places with a character so you go in and soak the damage and they teleport to your last position which is not only safe, but enables them to attack their attackers and aid you

    A third ability could be he could have like an AOE roar or something that pushes all vampires in melee range back and makes them fall down. Great crowd control.

    As for a weapon, he could use throwing axes or something like that. But instead of going far, they have an arching effect and hit the ground after a certain distance. So in long rage battles theyre completely ineffective because the axes dont go very far and he doesnt attack very fast. But in close range, hes a colossus, not a bruiser. Mainly meant to take the damage and crowd control.

    What do you think?

  14. #89
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    Originally Posted by XJadeDragoonX
    I thought about this really fast before work and figured i should share. Tell me your thoughts

    I think the humans need a tank kind of character. One that can take alot of damage and has great crowd control at melee range.

    I find myself body blocking for partners that are low on health quite alot and will happily take a little damage to save my team from a death. So maybe that could be incorporated with a large health pool and maybe like a spiked armor he can activate that hurts vampires for a certain amount of damage whenever they attack while making him take a percentage of damage less.

    Another ability could be maybe even be able to switch places with a character so you go in and soak the damage and they teleport to your last position which is not only safe, but enables them to attack their attackers and aid you

    A third ability could be he could have like an AOE roar or something that pushes all vampires in melee range back and makes them fall down. Great crowd control.

    As for a weapon, he could use throwing axes or something like that. But instead of going far, they have an arching effect and hit the ground after a certain distance. So in long rage battles theyre completely ineffective because the axes dont go very far and he doesnt attack very fast. But in close range, hes a colossus, not a bruiser. Mainly meant to take the damage and crowd control.

    What do you think?
    Gladiators, created through controlled breeding in the pins of clan Turel and conditioned through rigorous training in order to make the perfect human specimens for turning into fledgling turelim. Their pins were among they first to be targeted by the human rebellion and now these gladiators work to help free the rest of humanity and slaughter all those who would call themselves the masters of men.

  15. #90
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    No need for sorry, this is along the lines of what I was hope to get when I first posted about the Disciples. Stories get better written as well as more refined when bounced back and forth.

    I'm not looking to ruin the hylden's image or downplay what the achieved, but in LoK they were not the ultimate enemy, the Elder God was. The Elder God commanded the ancient vampires to go to war against the hylden which resulted in the curse. After the curse, the Elder God ceased to speak to the ancient vampires knowing the rejection would drive most of them to suicide. The Elder God corrupted Mobius, turning him as well as the rest of the human circle against what remained of the ancient vampires and all vampires down the line. If what I said about the texts works out, then it was the Elder God whose schemes brought the influence of the hylden back into Nosgoth in the first place.

    As you mentioned, Mobius remarked that the hylden were merely a necessary nuisance and Raziel's final words to Kain were that he would now see the true enemy, which was not the hylden.

    Just to be clear, your contention is that the glyph shrines should be crafted by the hylden during the time surrounding Blood Omen 2?
    Indeed, that’s true. This is why stories are pretty much never written and edited by just one person.



    Originally Posted by XJadeDragoonX
    I thought about this really fast before work and figured i should share. Tell me your thoughts

    I think the humans need a tank kind of character. One that can take alot of damage and has great crowd control at melee range.
    Originally Posted by XJadeDragoonX
    What do you think?
    There’s been some disagreement about this throughout the thread. Several people have commented on the fact the game’s designers are trying to maintain the vampires as melee fighters and the humans as long-range fighters. This is one of the aspects that make this game fairly unique. Your design has some interesting bits, but I do prefer the long-range vs melee idea that they’ve been sticking with.

  16. #91
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    There’s been some disagreement about this throughout the thread. Several people have commented on the fact the game’s designers are trying to maintain the vampires as melee fighters and the humans as long-range fighters. This is one of the aspects that make this game fairly unique. Your design has some interesting bits, but I do prefer the long-range vs melee idea that they’ve been sticking with.
    I agree to an extent. Yes i want the game to maintain a ranged vs melee basis. However, the class i described is still ranged. Still uses ranged attack to fight the vampires. But in a game where the ranged is forced to create a defensive area and fend off waves of melee vampires, they have no defense. Yes there are moves to save you and help maintain your perimeter. However, except for the sunlight vial, there is not a single ability that will not harm the user if used at close range. Arrow volley, turret, the grenade, literally any alchemist move including her own regular attacks all hurt the user as well as the vampire. This particular character i came up with will have the range of the alchemist in terms of actual attacks, but if put in a sticky situation, he can sustain longer than the other humans. This is very similar to the tyrant. The tyrant is good to get in, do quick crowd control, and get out. but instead of offensive crowd control, its defensive. I think its vital in all games with classes to have a tank character on both sides. Right now all the classes on the human side are meant for pure crazy damage. And thats good. However, the time comes when all the classes arent really all that difference. Each vampire is a totally different demon to play as. Scout and hunter, although different, are relatively similar. It would good to have variety and still maintain the ranged vs melee status.

  17. #92
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    Originally Posted by XJadeDragoonX
    I agree to an extent. Yes i want the game to maintain a ranged vs melee basis. However, the class i described is still ranged. Still uses ranged attack to fight the vampires. But in a game where the ranged is forced to create a defensive area and fend off waves of melee vampires, they have no defense. Yes there are moves to save you and help maintain your perimeter. However, except for the sunlight vial, there is not a single ability that will not harm the user if used at close range. Arrow volley, turret, the grenade, literally any alchemist move including her own regular attacks all hurt the user as well as the vampire. This particular character i came up with will have the range of the alchemist in terms of actual attacks, but if put in a sticky situation, he can sustain longer than the other humans. This is very similar to the tyrant. The tyrant is good to get in, do quick crowd control, and get out. but instead of offensive crowd control, its defensive. I think its vital in all games with classes to have a tank character on both sides. Right now all the classes on the human side are meant for pure crazy damage. And thats good. However, the time comes when all the classes arent really all that difference. Each vampire is a totally different demon to play as. Scout and hunter, although different, are relatively similar. It would good to have variety and still maintain the ranged vs melee status.
    The devs mentioned an interest in a shotgun style class, for the new guys. Many players have been wanting a human class who is of the same physical build as the Turelims so it can be asserted that these are the ones who the Turelim turn to in order to make more vampires for their clan. Two birds one stone, give these guys a blunderbuss since we already have explosives and firearms have been introduced through the Prophet. Let this guy be the center of the combat formation: slow on the move, players of the other classes moving some distance ahead and behind him while they provide long-mid range attack and falling back behind him when they are engaged with the enemy (this setup could also work for stationary defensive positions).
    Originally Posted by Ruevergne

    This is an interesting proposition. The hylden lost most of their human following and people of position with Kain's quest to slaughter the circle guardians, and the hylden would have been subtle in their take over of a new faction. How about we change it to where instead of finding maps and texts leading them to the finished shrines from way back when, they find the schematics for them (since the hylden were banished before they could be constructed and used against the vampires in the aftermath of the curse) and set about constructing the shrines themselves with these schematics; as well as with the guidance, and at the direction, of some within the group that the hylden had secretly possessed through some of the artifacts that were found among the hidden stash of hylden contraband? Once the first shrine was crafted and used, the hylden assumed control over all of the remaining acolytes through the glyphs themselves.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 4th May 2014 at 02:11.

  18. #93
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    The devs mentioned an interest in a shotgun style class, for the new guys. Many players have been wanting a human class who is of the same physical build as the Turelims so it can be asserted that these are the ones who the Turelim turn to in order to make more vampires for their clan. Two birds one stone, give these guys a blunderbuss since we already have explosives and firearms have been introduced through the Prophet. Let this guy be the center of the combat formation: slow on the move, players of the other classes moving some distance ahead and behind him while they provide long-mid range attack and falling back behind him when they are engaged with the enemy (this setup could also work for stationary defensive positions).
    The Turelim’s hulk-like appearance is a result of their evolution. I don’t like the idea of requiring a prerequisite for gaining this strength. That said, I’m not opposed to a muscled class of human, just a melee class. A variation of a blunderbuss could be interesting. I don’t think a human designed to soak damage is a great idea. The vampires in this era are extremely strong and are not supposed to be matched in physical resilience.

    Slightly random idea to throw out, but I’ve been wondering whether a class that deals entirely with traps (rope, spring, chemical) would be fun… though the alchemist already uses mines.

    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    This is an interesting proposition. The hylden lost most of their human following and people of position with Kain's quest to slaughter the circle guardians, and the hylden would have been subtle in their take over of a new faction. How about we change it to where instead of finding maps and texts leading them to the finished shrines from way back when, they find the schematics for them (since the hylden were banished before they could be constructed and used against the vampires in the aftermath of the curse) and set about constructing the shrines themselves with these schematics; as well as with the guidance, and at the direction, of some within the group that the hylden had secretly possessed through some of the artifacts that were found among the hidden stash of hylden contraband? Once the first shrine was crafted and used, the hylden assumed control over all of the remaining acolytes through the glyphs themselves.
    You still run up against the same problem whether the hylden built the shrines or planned them. It still implies that they planned their revenge/the curse prior to their banishment which does not make sense. Better to say that they used the eldritch magic in a non-elemental fashion in the war (as they are seen to do on other occasions).

    I actually quite like the idea that the hylden maintain only loose control, since the humans are already trying to wipe out their adversaries anyway. Mine if I rewrite your original premise to illustrate?

  19. #94
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    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    You still run up against the same problem whether the hylden built the shrines or planned them. It still implies that they planned their revenge/the curse prior to their banishment which does not make sense. Better to say that they used the eldritch magic in a non-elemental fashion in the war (as they are seen to do on other occasions).

    I actually quite like the idea that the hylden maintain only loose control, since the humans are already trying to wipe out their adversaries anyway. Mine if I rewrite your original premise to illustrate?
    I am saying the curse was planned out before their banishment, but originally as part of a plan meant to turn the tide of the war. The idea that the hylden just came up with something like the curse in the moments during their banishment doesn't make sense either. If it was that easy for them to do something that complex in such a short period of time then there is no reason why they should have been losing the war.
    I would like to say that the shrines were meant to be part of this plan, but if it somehow makes more sense that they were a side project, to replicate the ancients vampire's power, that got abandoned to pursue the development of the curse then that is fine.

    My mistake, when I said control over all of them I meant the hylden were now able to influence them.

    By all means, have at it and write it how you want it.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 5th May 2014 at 14:36.

  20. #95
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    I am saying the curse was planned out before their banishment, but originally as part of a plan meant to turn the tide of the war. The idea that the hylden just came up with something like the curse in the moments during their banishment doesn't make sense either. If it was that easy for them to do something that complex in such a short period of time then there is no reason why they should have been losing the war.
    I would like to say that the shrines were meant to be part of this plan, but if it somehow makes more sense that they were a side project, to replicate the ancients vampire's power, that got abandoned to pursue the development of the curse then that is fine.
    This just goes back to what we discussed before though.



    Originally Posted by Ruevergne

    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    My mistake, when I said control over all of them I meant the hylden were now able to influence them.
    Gotcha.

    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    By all means, have at it and write it how you want it.
    Okay... I’m going to iron out the plot discrepancies and (forgive me) use a little creative license. Apologies for any sloppiness... I really should be spending more time sanding my walls...

    Once upon a time…

    The destruction of Avernus; the fall of the circle; the collapse of the pillars; plague conflict… these dark times created refugees in their tens of thousands. Generations past and many of their descendants had become nomads. Some founded settlements hidden within Nosgoth’s great central forests and the nomadic way of life dwindled. Time went past and the upheaval began once more; Kain, his lieutenants and their brood came from the west tearing their way through the settlements and the refugees scattered and fled.

    While recovering from their flight, a group taking shelter in the ruins of Avernus discovered secret chambers revealed amongst the Cathedral’s decay. Little remained, but, hidden away by Mortanius in the early days of the first human Circle of Nine, texts belonging to an ancient civilisation spoke of otherworldly power and the flames of revenge ignited within the migrants’ hearts.

    It was during this second diaspora that the spirits first came to the migrants’ aid. They spoke through the bodies of the possessed; the green blaze of their souls lit the eyes of their host. They spoke of imprisonment by the vampires and freedom upon their deaths; they spoke familial tales that eased the hearts of those bereaved of loved ones; and as time went by the migrants began to comprehend the teachings of the spirits – the blood was merely a prerequisite for trapping the souls of their victims within the vampires flesh – futile substitutes for the absence of their own souls.

    The lessons imparted by the imprisoned souls were confined and brief, but fuelled by spiritual zeal the migrants managed to use this knowledge to harvest from the teachings of the texts. They constructed shrines to draw eldritch magic into the world and the elemental glyphs were born. These glyphs imbued their users with powers that, but for their teachings, would have been beyond their comprehension. Intoxicated by power and righteousness, they ignored the side effects each glyph wrought upon their bodies.

    With each new glyph their bodies became blighted and grew numb, but the fires within their hearts ripened and the order of the acolytes began to enact justice upon the vampires; surreptitious and measured, but steady. The acolytes now lost much of their ability to empathize with the living; they lived for the dead.

    Knowing they were outnumbered, they chose to bide their time. Under the surface of Nosgoth, they got to work crafting tunnels facilitating travel to the glyph shrines. To refill their ranks they clung to the edges of Nosgoth’s remaining human civilisations, enticing others with the promises of safety and retribution.

    With news of the vampire civil war and the human uprising well under way, the acolytes joined humanity in the war against the vampires. Endowed with a sense of righteous piety, generations of hatred and rage broke forth and the acolytes unleashed the full force of their fury on the battlefield.
    Last edited by Ruevergne; 7th May 2014 at 15:55.

  21. #96
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    Okay, it makes some sense but I do have concerns.
    -You don't want this class to be a tie-in from previous games or come from locations already used in other class' origins, a complete original in those terms. So why did you move them from Malek's Bastion to Avernus where the Prophets already come from; and why would they seek safety in a place that could still be swarming with demons?
    -Because you don't want this class to have a tie-in to the series, you say they are just random refugees and not surviving acolytes of the circle nine; but, as has been said, the hylden's power was pure eldritch energy, not elemental and as you insist the hylden never have need to develop it into something elemental. Then where did the knowledge to craft it into elemental power come from; because, as you say, it didn't come from the hylden and these guys don't have the background to explain it either?

    Aside from those issues the rest is sound.

  22. #97
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood

    Okay, it makes some sense but I do have concerns.
    -You don't want this class to be a tie-in from previous games or come from locations already used in other class' origins, a complete original in those terms. So why did you move them from Malek's Bastion to Avernus where the Prophets already come from; and why would they seek safety in a place that could still be swarming with demons?
    Good questions… I didn’t explain some of it very well.



    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    -Because you don't want this class to have a tie-in to the series, you say they are just random refugees and not surviving acolytes of the circle nine; but, as has been said, the hylden's power was pure eldritch energy, not elemental and as you insist the hylden never have need to develop it into something elemental. Then where did the knowledge to craft it into elemental power come from; because, as you say, it didn't come from the hylden and these guys don't have the background to explain it either?

    Aside from those issues the rest is sound.
    I chose to detach them from the circle as a lot of the new stories have been heavily connected to them. I prefer the idea of a new culture emerging from a mixed diaspora. More specifically, a superstitious, but atheist group of spiritualists, as I like the idea of introducing godlessness into the storyline.



    Do you realise that between us we’ve probably covered a small essay on this idea and the devs are quite possibly not interested at all? ...Do you think we might be nuts?

  23. #98
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    Originally Posted by Ruevergne
    Do you realise that between us we’ve probably covered a small essay on this idea and the devs are quite possibly not interested at all? ...Do you think we might be nuts?
    The thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion. I'd say you and I have pretty much spoiled this thread and if I knew it would have gone this far I would have asked that we do this back and forth through PM instead; but if the devs use any of it: ideas regarding origins, abilities, weapons, or places in the LoK lore then I'll say it was worth it. I think we should stop for now or continue it through PM, agreed?

    I have a final thought before we stop and this is with regard to the origins of these elemental weaknesses; and it actually supports your version better. What if these elemental weakness weren't placed upon the ancient vampires by the curse and then passed on to the humans they turned; but instead these weakness originally manifested in the humans that were turned as a side-effect of the curse, due to their differences in anatomy? It was never said that these weakness afflicted the ancient vampires and the elemental damage of Raziel's wraith blade didn't seem to make much difference in the fight against a possessed Janos Audron.

    And no, we're not nuts, were Legacy of Kain fans and Legacy of Kain fans like to be thorough when it comes to lore. When the lore is inconsistent we get Blood Omen 2 and none of us want a repeat of that.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 9th May 2014 at 04:08.

  24. #99
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    I think Malek’s Bastion is a good location to choose as well, but there’re a problems. Malek was not present in the ancients’ depictions of Mortanius and Moebius’ uprising against them.
    Malek´s Bastion seems to be built upon ancient forge/ruins as the concepts of Dark Prophecy show us.

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    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    What if these elemental weakness weren't placed upon the ancient vampires by the curse and then passed on to the humans they turned; but instead these weakness originally manifested in the humans that were turned as a side-effect of the curse, due to their differences in anatomy? It was never said that these weakness afflicted the ancient vampires and the elemental damage of Raziel's wraith blade didn't seem to make much difference in the fight against a possessed Janos Audron.
    I don't think it's safe to say this. Elemental damage is largely meaningless against all bosses in Defiance (including Turel). Also, it's Janos Audron, the oldest ancient vampire in the history of Nosgoth. Not a great yardstick when looking for weaknesses.

    Given that the ancient vampires began as nature-loving stewards, it makes sense to me that those vulnerabilities were probably targeted at them specifically, to pervert and dismantle their lifestyle. I believe that to the greatest extent possible, the vampires passed on the same uncompromised Hylden curse they possessed, with all its positive and negative factors. Evolution is the only side effect I can think of which doesn't appear to have manifested in the original species (which is logical, since you can't really assume the powers and nobility of the "dark gods" when you already are one).

    And indeed, nothing states that Malek's Bastion was created by Malek himself (it makes sense if interpreted as a lofty ancient vampire stronghold, repurposed later on). It was to appear in Soul Reaver at one point, so there is no problem with involving it in later stories. If there's any reason why Malek wouldn't be included in plots after the slaughter of the Circle, it would probably be down to his reputation as a failure and traitor after that event, as covered in Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 2.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

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