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Thread: Next Balance Patch Preview

Next Balance Patch Preview

  1. #1

    Next Balance Patch Preview

    This will NOT be in the next update you get - that is primarily a bug fixing patch rolling out tomorrow hopefully. This will be in the subsequent update and there's not a date set on it yet. This is where you can complain about the changes in advance!

    Originally Posted by Patch Notes
    Hunter
    Siege Bow
    • Damage reduced to 95, was 100

    Grenade
    • Cooldown increased to 15 seconds, was 10

    Sticky Grenade
    • Cooldown increased to 15 seconds, was 10

    Scout
    Compound Bow
    • Unaimed damage increased to 190, was 185
    • Fire rate increased to 1.5, was 1.4

    Swiftbow
    • Unaimed damage increased to 185, was 170
    • Fire rate increased to 1.5, was 1.4

    Storm Bow
    • Unaimed explosion damage increased to 180, was 150
    • Explosion radius increased to 350
    • Clip size increased to 5, was 4
    • Fire rate increased to 1.3, was 1.2

    War Bow
    • Unaimed damage increased to 205, was 185
    • Fire rate increased to 1.3, was 1.2

    Reaver
    Choking Haze
    • Damage reduced to 83/sec-166/sec, was 100/sec-200/sec

  2. #2
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    I worry that Hunter and Scout are coming closer together and losing diversification with these changes. You're boosting the scouts close range ability while leaving the sniping aspect unchanged.

    Personally I'm strongly considering switching to Hunter from Scout simply because the added dps potential is 50% or more on Hunter. Good Hunters will easily hit distant targets, albeit maybe with less spike damage, and have insane dps in close range.

    I would really you rather consider some change to the draw times on the Scout bows rather than the un-aimed dps increase, probably with a Charged damage decrease to balance things out. Like I have mentioned numerous times, a lot of the damage done by scouts is regened off, it's not really a good indicator. Plus the guys I play with are getting 25k+ dmg with Hunter these days too (guess they finally learned to aim ^^).

  3. #3
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    I personally would like something to make the hunter less accurate at a mid-cross map range, like a wider spread or more recoil.
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  4. #4
    Hunter DPS is roughly 350 and Scout (post-buff) is about 265. We can look at Hunter distance accuracy.

    The rationale for leaving Scout draw time alone is that we don't want to introduce more and more long range burst damage to humans. As a vampire it's already quite frustrating to get picked off from halfway across the map - buffing Scout drawn shots will only make it worse. The current refire and draw times give most players a chance to react and break line of sight. If it's much faster by the time (after latency, in particular) you realize where you've been shot from he will likely be fully drawn again.

    In general we're happy with where Scouts are in the "sniper" role and have no current plans to enhance that aspect. The buffs to unaimed fire are in response to complaints and difficulty with general survivability as Scout. You always have the option of using the War Bow if you want to trade off sustained close range DPS for massive long range power and utility.

  5. #5
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    TO back this up, I'm not a bad sentinel player by any means, and I just got the ever-loving crap kicked out of me by Jest. The dude DOESN'T miss with a war-bow. Even in turning snapshots. Literally, didn't see him miss a single shot on me. If you don't have enough killing power with the scout, then you need better accuracy and more practice; it's not the scout's ability that's lacking. He's living proof. The scouts generally have the highest damage output of all the human players.
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  6. #6
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    I agree with Stache/sausage. A well played scout is extremely difficult to play against. The only way I find I can handle scouts like jest or talespin is to climb up under them and hope they don't see you. I've had moments of being chain stunned by a single player as the war bow knocked me down but kept me in sight of the player, think chain pounces but from a single player and from far away.

    It should be noted though that on average, fighting a scout is like any other but the highest level players make it insanely hard (and mildly rewarding when you do get them)

  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by Psyonix_Corey
    Hunter DPS is roughly 350 and Scout (post-buff) is about 265. We can look at Hunter distance accuracy.
    I make the dps on the Multibow to be 360.

    The rationale for leaving Scout draw time alone is that we don't want to introduce more and more long range burst damage to humans. As a vampire it's already quite frustrating to get picked off from halfway across the map - buffing Scout drawn shots will only make it worse. The current refire and draw times give most players a chance to react and break line of sight. If it's much faster by the time (after latency, in particular) you realize where you've been shot from he will likely be fully drawn again.
    It's really not hard to see where a long yellow line is coming from... if you're regularly getting hit from across the map then you're bad. There is so much cover it's trivially easy to get right on top of humans without getting in LoS. All the best Sentinels fly at ground level, and at most below rooftop level. Even Scouts on rooftops don't have 100% vision.

    In general we're happy with where Scouts are in the "sniper" role and have no current plans to enhance that aspect. The buffs to unaimed fire are in response to complaints and difficulty with general survivability as Scout. You always have the option of using the War Bow if you want to trade off sustained close range DPS for massive long range power and utility.
    I asked for a tradeoff not an enhancement, lower draw time in exchange for damage.

    Scout survivability is fine, I honestly have no clue who you're asking about that. Volley, trap and the extra accuracy at range more than make up for subpar unaimed fire. Warbow sucks unless you have 1-2 other scouts with swiftbow to insta-gib someone, it's an annoyance at best. Given the time it takes to charge, that if the scout can see you you can see him and the horrible fov and sensitivity gimp it's easy to just break LoS.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by cmstache
    TO back this up, I'm not a bad sentinel player by any means, and I just got the ever-loving crap kicked out of me by Jest. The dude DOESN'T miss with a war-bow. Even in turning snapshots. Literally, didn't see him miss a single shot on me. If you don't have enough killing power with the scout, then you need better accuracy and more practice; it's not the scout's ability that's lacking. He's living proof. The scouts generally have the highest damage output of all the human players.
    Oh hey. *waves* Been playing with scout simply because I don't have any other unlocks. I've actually found the default bow to be the most effective, it's just that dropping evil vultures out of the sky never loses its joy.

    Just made my first hunter unlock today so I'll be transitioning into that. The GP grind is just so painful that it forces you into sticking with one thing. Been on the receiving end of some crazy hunter DPS from players like ZP - the raw numbers just look so much higher than what the scout has to offer. Plus 600 dmg nades?

    I think the skillcap for humans is much higher than it is for vampires. As your aim improves, your effectiveness as a human shoots up with it. As a vampire, there doesn't seem to be much you can do to improve as a player. You can have a solid mentality and tactics, but nothing that lets you set yourself apart technically as a player, like improving your aim as a human. I think we'll be seeing a lot of human blowouts as player aim improves. I really think vampires need more tools to raise their skill cap, things that let them use player skill to be more effective - wall jumping instead of just going up/down, cancelling rolls into attacks, etc.
    Last edited by jestdoit; 18th Dec 2013 at 11:28.

  9. #9
    I think the damage increase is a good idea. I play a lot of the scout and I can't tell you how many times they get away with -100 health.

    Also the Warbow is devastating with good timing. The knockback allows you to interrupt most incoming vampire combos. Kidnap, Pounce, Leap... all of those can be countered and a wasted cooldown if you wait for the opportunity. However I completely agree that from a dps standpoint, its lacking. (but that's not really the point of using it)
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by Oroibahazopi
    I make the dps on the Multibow to be 360.


    It's really not hard to see where a long yellow line is coming from... if you're regularly getting hit from across the map then you're bad. There is so much cover it's trivially easy to get right on top of humans without getting in LoS. All the best Sentinels fly at ground level, and at most below rooftop level. Even Scouts on rooftops don't have 100% vision.

    This coming from the guy who doesn't use sentinels very often. While you're right, flying low is nice to stay under cover (In fact, I can often be seen jumping from building to building with a glide in between), but eventually you HAVE to go high. The only way to prevent yourself from not landing mid kidnap is to go from a nose-dive to gather speed. I've tested it, it's incredibly rare to hit the ground when doing it and much faster. You can get in and get out. Trying to attack a person from near the ground as a sentinel is suicide, ESPECIALLY if you're having to be the lead attacker.



    I asked for a tradeoff not an enhancement, lower draw time in exchange for damage.

    Scout survivability is fine, I honestly have no clue who you're asking about that. Volley, trap and the extra accuracy at range more than make up for subpar unaimed fire. Warbow sucks unless you have 1-2 other scouts with swiftbow to insta-gib someone, it's an annoyance at best. Given the time it takes to charge, that if the scout can see you you can see him and the horrible fov and sensitivity gimp it's easy to just break LoS.

    war bow is all you need. I don't know how many times last night alone jest shot me and I was dead before I could even stand up because I was getting ganked by 2 other players. And some of those were via rooftop.
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  11. #11
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    I don't need to play Sent often to be able to see Sents who go 20/1 k/d, and see how they play.

    As for the warbow comment, I really can't argue with a person who thinks that 3v1 is a winnable situation when the dps on Hunters is 300+ i.e. 3-4 seconds and you're dead. ANY stun in that situation will kill you, the Scout could throw knives and the same thing would happen.

  12. #12
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    I stand by the belief that a properly played sent shouldn't go 20/1. The reavers and tyrants should be doing the most damage.

    I do, however, want to see more movement ability via the vamps.
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  13. #13
    One issue with Sentinel that we allowed to go live due to deadlines and just to see what happened was the current state of Kidnap.

    Our original design was to have it require more anticipation on the Sentinel's part - e.g. you have to trigger it in advance, and can't simply fly next to a human and tap RMB at the last second. In general right now it's almost impossible to anticipate and dodge a good Kidnapping Sentinel, which (while I'm sure Sentinel players like) isn't ideal.

    What IS in is the ability to disrupt a Kidnap with damage, but there's no feedback to the affected Sentinel (which sucks), and you can bypass this by simply waiting until the last possible second to trigger Kidnap. So it's flawed.

    What we don't want to do is force Sentinels to freeze in air for a long warmup animation (similar to Divebomb) before every Kidnap because it feels like they'll be too exposed against good teams, especially good Scouts. So it's a process to figure out the right solution.

    It would be useful if you guys know what the 20/1 sentinels are typically doing. Are they kidnap-comboing (kidnap->dive bomb->wing flap), or is it all just Kidnap drops and evasive action?

  14. #14
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    Sorry for the slight tangent, but I was wondering how you (the devs) feel with chaining Kidnap? or Pounce for the matter?

    I admit I have been the victim of a Kidnap chain, as well as part of one whilst playing Sentinel. Sure it can get disrupted, but it's frustrating for the kidnapped player to be so helpless for so long.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Tube_Reaver
    Sorry for the slight tangent, but I was wondering how you (the devs) feel with chaining Kidnap? or Pounce for the matter?

    I admit I have been the victim of a Kidnap chain, as well as part of one whilst playing Sentinel. Sure it can get disrupted, but it's frustrating for the kidnapped player to be so helpless for so long.
    Open to the idea but I'm trying to avoid cases where the second Reaver or Sentinel has their ability mysteriously fail because someone else did it recently. It would suck to line up a great long range Pounce but bounce off your target because he's temporarily immune, etc.

  16. #16
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    Typically, I can 1v1 pretty much anybody and kill them if I can grab them. Although, I did have to practice a lot before being able to grab effectively while under fire.


    I run abduct, but kidnap works basically the same way.


    Step 1 - Abduct
    Step 2- Just as it's ending do a turning nosedive to the ground. If done right it'll set you up for either wing gust or puncture. Wing gust is easier because to do it properly you have to spin nearly 180 degrees. Puncture gives a higher dmg rating though.
    Step 3- Melee 1-3x
    Step 4- Takeoff (at least for me) for the kill, or a last melee, depending on my dmg taken.


    This strategy, if done right, usually yields me between 15-20k damage. I did it the other day to Mark, maybe he can tell you what it's like on the receiving side. It's not as easy as it looks though.

    The major issue with this is if you miss with wind gust/puncture it sets you up to be drilled hard with skills. And while you pull them together and isolate them (great for killing, but not so great while being attacked), sentinels aren't exactly built for melee 1v1 fighting. If you miss against a good player you're done because you don't have backup either. If you don't run takeoff (I do, but many ppl prefer divebomb) a good bola will get you instakilled.


    I also like jumping off of a building and landing a stray puncture in someone's back. Also, sentinels are great at picking healing players off, all they have to do is dodge and start over before you turn around, but they almost always try to race the sentinel dive with the healing timer, and since I prefer to dive and get in and out I normally win against the clock.


    Hope that helps some Corey? Also, falling from a rooftop into a downward insta-dive is good, but it's slower closing the gap though since you aren't airborne prior to the roof jump of doom.


    EDIT: Various small typos.
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by Psyonix_Corey
    Open to the idea but I'm trying to avoid cases where the second Reaver or Sentinel has their ability mysteriously fail because someone else did it recently. It would suck to line up a great long range Pounce but bounce off your target because he's temporarily immune, etc.
    Very true, but it also sucks for the human who is just helpless without a fighting chance unless his/her teammates can free them (which is harder to do if kidnapped on certain maps with enough corners).

    I would like to re-suggest my "roll to the side" idea, where after being kidnapped or pounced CC'd, the human player can press right
    or left (A or D) and the character rolls to the side fast enough to avoid an immediate follow-up kidnap and/or pounce, but not far enough that you're out of an immediate nosedive area or such.

    Vampires can get used to this tactic and if patient enough to wait for it, they'll see this animation and know that "ok this guy will roll, do I go for them or another" and it might give the humans enough time to cover their teammate.

    This reduces instant chaining of kidnap and pounce, but still makes it possible, but it requires more timing and for vamps to pay attention, while at the same time, giving the human target player a chance to avoid, as well as his/her teammates to protect said target (if they even can).


    EDIT: frankly this roll tactic can also be used for vampires, if you believe being chain knocked down by scouts to be an issue.

  18. #18
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    But, there's nothing funnier than seeing someone falling from my Abduct and caught mid-air by another Sent's kidnap. That kind of stuff shouldn't be punished....
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by cmstache
    But, there's nothing funnier than seeing someone falling from my Abduct and caught mid-air by another Sent's kidnap. That kind of stuff shouldn't be punished....
    Funny for the sentinels, but frustrating the human player.
    Sure if you're caught mid-air you won't take fall damage, but you're sat at your pc just like "ughhhh"

  20. #20
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    But, think about how hard that is to do. O.o, and it doesn't happen often. You can grab people falling off buildings too.
    Last edited by cmstache; 18th Dec 2013 at 17:47.
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    Not saying it isn't difficult, I am sure it's tricky to pull off.

    But it just isn't fun for the human player.

    If a tyrant lands a great jump followed by a shockwave, that has me knocked down for a while, I can appreciate it, he had to aim twice, and it was my inability to dodge both abilities that got me in this situation. However when you are kidnapped/abducted/pounced, and then as it ends you are immediately kidnapped/pounced etc it is annoying.
    Sure I failed dodging the first ability, but I have no chance for the 2nd or 3rd abilities.

  22. #22
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    You're thinking about it wrong. It's a team game, not individual. The players had to coordinate those attacks, and pounces can be interrupted. If you get caught by a pounce, then the 2nd one gets interrupted halfway through by your teammates you essentially turn the match into a 4v2 situation. The reaver's abilities are used up. That's the problem with singling out a player instead of fighting the team itself.


    Both strategies have flaws, but your team just isn't capitalizing on it. Voice chat should help remedy this once it's fixed.
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  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by cmstache
    You're thinking about it wrong. It's a team game, not individual. The players had to coordinate those attacks, and pounces can be interrupted. If you get caught by a pounce, then the 2nd one gets interrupted halfway through by your teammates you essentially turn the match into a 4v2 situation. The reaver's abilities are used up. That's the problem with singling out a player instead of fighting the team itself.


    Both strategies have flaws, but your team just isn't capitalizing on it. Voice chat should help remedy this once it's fixed.
    Trust me, I understand this is a team game, and I am thinking about it as such. But I am also thinking about it from a perspective of fun/frustrating.

    Yes I know it can take coordination and teamplay to pull them off. But not always, even without teamplay or VoIP, I spot someone being kidnapped or pounced, and I think "hmm easy kill, target has low health after the other vamp is done" and ready my own pounce or such. Does that require immense skill or teamplay on my part? Not really. Is it frustrating for the human players who are chained? Yes.

  24. #24
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    But it still leaves it as a virtual 3v3 or 4v3 situation. It's not as beneficial as it seems. It might not take teamwork for pounce, But neither does 3 scouts sniping the same sentinel.
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  25. #25
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    Originally Posted by cmstache
    But it still leaves it as a virtual 3v3 or 4v3 situation. It's not as beneficial as it seems. It might not take teamwork for pounce, But neither does 3 scouts sniping the same sentinel.
    It may not be the best teamplay tactic to pull off no, but it is still frustrating.

    As to the sentinel being sniped: 2 completely different situations, that can't be compared. If you're sniped, then you were out in the open or caught off guard, and that doesn't chain CC you. Also the scouts have to aim with a lot more precision than a simple pounce with semi auto-aim, or an kidnap pick up on a stationary target.

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