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Thread: Raziel is freed from the reaver at def's end...

  1. #101
    Er, I'm sure (or, at least, I hope) I don't need to explain that Earth logic does not completely apply to Nosgoth in the first place. Kain is a 2500-year-old vampire who's had several evolutions. There is some post-fallen Raziel concept art from SR1 depicting his shaven down ribs with his heart completely exposed and vulnerable. But even if Kain still retains all of his human anatomy: the wraiths can surely heal his ribs or restore his flesh, which would have occured over time naturally, but what sort of sense does it make if they can create something that isn't there to be healed. It's complete nonsense. I would say screw logic and ask you to point out a single developed creature on Earth capable of completely regenerating a heart where there is none.

  2. #102
    Frogs and lizards can regrow lost limbs and if you cut a planaria in half one half will grow a tail and the other will grow a head. Some fish will go from male to female and back again depending on how dominant they are at the time. So as you can see, earth creatures regrow lost body parts all the time. Heck you cold even freeze an alaskan frog solid and when it thaws it's just as alive as it was the fall before. Animals do weird things all the time.

  3. #103
    Animals can regrow lost limbs, but I know of no way anyone could present a case where a living organism's heart has ever respawned. Kain's scar would have closed up eventually over time. Would time have spawned a new heart for him out of nowhere? Clearly not, because Janos spent 500 years without one and didn't even begin to conjure up a new heart to replace his own. The premise that the idea of Kain regrowing his heart in the space of three seconds thanks to the wraithblade appeals to biology, even Earth biology, does not make any sense. And it cheapens Kain's literary value too. :P

  4. #104
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    I agree with what is visually there: that the hole in Kain's chest meant that perhaps the surrounding organs, certainly the diaphragm, possibly the stomach and lungs, would have been torn up, as well as his lower ribs, muscle, and connective tissue. All of this would have had to have been repaired by the WB. I, however, think his original long-since-missing heart was not one of these things restored. It's unknown, obviously, who is right, however. Kain doesn't mention a new-found beating return to his chest, though he certainly had other concerns in the moments after being healed to comment on something like that. The only way we'll ever know is if Kain mentions something about it in the next installment, or we pull him out of the fantasy fiction we love, lay him on a slab, and dissect him I guess we could also hear a definitive word on it from the creative team out there, were there to be one working on another installment, or from someone like Chris Bruno, etc.

    Until then, it's all idle speculation. I don't think he has a heart back, nor, as Escaton says, that he needs one. However, if he did get a new one, I wouldn't be broken up about it. It's not a thing that would cheapen his final moments in Defiance, for me. The revelation that the heart he did have wasn't his, but was Janos' was the important part, and that he could still function without one -- that he, in fact, had been functioning without his own heart for thousands of years. But, maybe making him purified would constitute giving Kain a heart again; y'know, like the Tin Man We'll see one day...

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    I agree with what is visually there: that the hole in Kain's chest meant that perhaps the surrounding organs, certainly the diaphragm, possibly the stomach and lungs, would have been torn up, as well as his lower ribs, muscle, and connective tissue. All of this would have had to have been repaired by the WB. I, however, think his original long-since-missing heart was not one of these things restored. It's unknown, obviously, who is right, however. Kain doesn't mention a new-found beating return to his chest, though he certainly had other concerns in the moments after being healed to comment on something like that. The only way we'll ever know is if Kain mentions something about it in the next installment, or we pull him out of the fantasy fiction we love, lay him on a slab, and dissect him I guess we could also hear a definitive word on it from the creative team out there, were there to be one working on another installment, or from someone like Chris Bruno, etc.

    Until then, it's all idle speculation. I don't think he has a heart back, nor, as Escaton says, that he needs one. However, if he did get a new one, I wouldn't be broken up about it. It's not a thing that would cheapen his final moments in Defiance, for me. The revelation that the heart he did have wasn't his, but was Janos' was the important part, and that he could still function without one -- that he, in fact, had been functioning without his own heart for thousands of years. But, maybe making him purified would constitute giving Kain a heart again; y'know, like the Tin Man We'll see one day...
    Still, Amy Henning or whoever said that it was the nature of the Balance Guardian to survive - that is nothing more but a lazy excuse and a copout for a much more valid explanation. It doesn't say much on how he's alive, as the heart WAS used to resurrect Kain from the dead and return to life as a vampire. So if that's the case and his heart was ripped by Raziel, shouldn't he have been dead by now? Instead, his nature as Balance Guardian allows him to survive? Such laziness, if you ask me!

  6. #106
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    His nature as the Scion of Balance, which is different than just the Balance Guardian, is what they said allowed him to survive. I, and others now, have also pointed out that Necro vamps can survive until their body is destroyed, basically, so this really wasn't totally necessary to use as an explanation. As far as laziness: why? If they fully intended to expland on this in a follow-up installment, which we learned was already in the works of being developed (see the General section to view more on that), yet didn't want to give the expanded version away to us to spoil it for us, then this is what's known as a tease. It answers in the most basic way the question, but doesn't go into vital detail that would spoil things too greatly for us. So no, I wouldn't call it lazy on their part. In fact, they didn't have to answer the question at all, really. They could have just said "you'll have to wait and see!"

  7. #107
    From what I understand Kain can only be killed by the Wraithblade and when Raziel went to strike him down with it, Kain caught his arm. So it makes me wonder what would happen if Kain found himself on ground zero of a nuclear strike would his ash still be alive?

    BTW guy who was arguing with me- A few years ago scientist were able to grow a living human liver in the lab using stem cells (cells that haven't been told what to become). So if we can make a small liver, then a video game that doesn't follow science certainly can grow a heart. But really it's a nonissue, when your son sacrifices himself and you see a giant monster looming over you, you aren't going to notice that you have a heart again. Besides you really don't pay attention to it unless you've over exerted yourself.

    But it is weird how passionate people seem to be over this.

  8. #108
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    Um, I can see the 'lazy' point, actually. I always thought that his original heart, his human heart was pressed back into service when he was dying. He mentions a 'disquieting stillness' when he wakes up, but his heart would probably be weak after centuries of dormancy. I think Dumah mentions that the Heart of Darkness 'still beats' after its removed, so maybe it was just beating for no reason in his chest and wasn't sustaining him at all.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  9. #109
    I've heard your theory on that before, but I see no reason why Mortanius would have left his human heart in there when reanimating him anyway. Two hearts shoved into the human anatomy, now that would make no biological sense. And aside from the "disquieting stillness", there's also "I always was considered heartless".

    Kain isn't Larry Hagman. I dunno why people are so intent on giving him two hearts or regrowing his heart or whatever. Occam's Razor seems to have gone missing.

    BTW guy who was arguing with me
    Hello Graz'zt, nice to meet you.

    a video game that doesn't follow science certainly can grow a heart
    Uh, you've just ripped up your own point about making biological sense here! A video game protagonist who doesn't follow science doesn't need a heart in the first place.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    His nature as the Scion of Balance, which is different than just the Balance Guardian, is what they said allowed him to survive. I, and others now, have also pointed out that Necro vamps can survive until their body is destroyed, "
    I thought he survived not only because he was the scion of balance, but because no new balance guardian was born yet. This kind of scared me because at any moment a baby could have been born with the destiny of the new balance guardian, and then Kain would have dropped dead. That was what I assumed when I first played Defiance. But I supposed your explanation makes more sense.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Raina Audron View Post
    wraithblade goes into Kain, purifying him, Raziel become the soul inside the blood reaver, that IS a fact. There could never be two Raziel´s soul inside the blade, paradox does not allow it. Also all forge upgrades enhance WB, not Raziel. Wraith Raziel´s story ends with Defiance, get over it already.
    [/I]
    I am not aware of Kain having the ability to absorb souls. He took the dark gifts from vanquished vampire-foes in BO2, but how could Kain simply absorb the wraith blade by touching it? Raziel slashed at Kain with the blade quite a few times in Avernus.

    Also, doesn't it bother you that such an amazing character ends like that? I mean what if they did that to Dante or Masterchief? What if in the last Halo game Masterchief went into some kind of purgatorial computer-hard drive that kept his mind alive for thousands of years until going to oblivion one day. I'm not personally a Halo fan I'm just using that reference because it's commonly known.

    What if Lara Croft was kept alive by a spell in some sarcophagus for a thousand years and then turned to sand one day?

    I mean just take any really awesome hero and end him/her like that, after all they've done. It just seems wrong.

    The description for Kain's continued survival without his heart was not laziness, but the explanation for The WB being absorbed into Kain DOES seem like a copout.

  12. #112
    I am not aware of Kain having the ability to absorb souls.
    Kain didn't absorb Raziel's soul, it was dispersed into him.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostlion88 View Post
    I am not aware of Kain having the ability to absorb souls. He took the dark gifts from vanquished vampire-foes in BO2, but how could Kain simply absorb the wraith blade by touching it? Raziel slashed at Kain with the blade quite a few times in Avernus.

    Also, doesn't it bother you that such an amazing character ends like that? I mean what if they did that to Dante or Masterchief? What if in the last Halo game Masterchief went into some kind of purgatorial computer-hard drive that kept his mind alive for thousands of years until going to oblivion one day. I'm not personally a Halo fan I'm just using that reference because it's commonly known.

    What if Lara Croft was kept alive by a spell in some sarcophagus for a thousand years and then turned to sand one day?

    I mean just take any really awesome hero and end him/her like that, after all they've done. It just seems wrong.

    The description for Kain's continued survival without his heart was not laziness, but the explanation for The WB being absorbed into Kain DOES seem like a copout.
    All of those heroes you mention have more going for them than Raziel ever did. Raziel starts off a destroyed character. He's a shredded, undead Wraith, who hates his own existence and never wanted to be what he's become, who constantly has to "die" and be "reborn" again by being forced to, or choosing to, go Spectral and then rematerializing in a new body in the Material. His destiny is seemingly unavoidable. His only purpose was to become the sword. He has been lied to and manipulated by everyone, and through all of this, his only desires are vengeance by killing Kain and being only out to help himself, not the world. In the end, the epiphany that Raziel finds is that he can actually push aside the self, or his own desires, and leave this miserable existence that he loathes, by embracing his fate and simultaneously healing Kain. His self-sacrifice is far more dynamic than any of those heroes you mention will ever achieve. And their moment -- Kain and Raziel -- was magical. It makes Kain's journey that much more profound, knowing what Raziel has done for him and that Raziel actually is with him as his right hand in every swing of the sword Kain carries.

    It was already stated, but Kain didn't use any ability to absorb anything from the Wraith Blade. Raziel used it on Kain to heal him of his corruption. It also slinks down Kain's arm to the hilt of the Reaver and simultaneously pulls its younger self -- Raziel -- into the blade so that it can be created in the first place. Once its task is completed on both fronts, the Wraith Blade disperses within Kain (stated by the creators to be its act of finally freeing it -- Raziel -- from its purgatorial circular cycle, so in this end Raziel finally finds peace). Kain didn't have any control over the matter, nor ability to stop it all.

  14. #114
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    And about the heartless Kain, this is a list of things that I use to draw my conclusion:

    1) Kain IS surviving without a heart. Which is silly. So it's not enough just to say "deal with it." I needed to make this silly event meaningful to the story for my own sense of wellbeing, you know? So...
    2) He's the Scion and for now that's as good as having a heart, apparently. But why would his Scion-ness be holding the door open for him to continue living? People assume it's so he can finish the Elder at which point all the balance spirits can finally RIP. But there's also this:
    3) the curse is a blood curse, and blood is regulated by the heart, and Vampire hearts seem to govern the curse and mete out their immortality. So if a vampire is heartless and manages to survive, which shouldn't be, that's an opportunity! It's like the curse's head has been decapitated and it's weak in Kain now, ripe to be overcome. Kain may have a unique chance to beat the curse.
    4) the series was trying to end, and Dark Prophecy was to be the finale. So if there is to be any movement toward curing the bloodcurse, it was begun by the Scion at the end of Defiance.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostlion88 View Post
    Also, doesn't it bother you that such an amazing character ends like that? I mean what if they did that to Dante or Masterchief? What if in the last Halo game Masterchief went into some kind of purgatorial computer-hard drive that kept his mind alive for thousands of years until going to oblivion one day. I'm not personally a Halo fan I'm just using that reference because it's commonly known.
    The Hylden replied to other questions, so I reply to this. I was sad about Defiance being last game for wraith Raziel, but by making the sacrifice he had shown that he cares for the world and Kain in the end. It was a noble deed and I see nothing wrong with that.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    All of those heroes you mention have more going for them than Raziel ever did. Raziel starts off a destroyed character. He's a shredded, undead Wraith, who hates his own existence and never wanted to be what he's become, who constantly has to "die" and be "reborn" again by being forced to, or choosing to, go Spectral and then rematerializing in a new body in the Material. His destiny is seemingly unavoidable. His only purpose was to become the sword. He has been lied to and manipulated by everyone, and through all of this, his only desires are vengeance by killing Kain and being only out to help himself, not the world. In the end, the epiphany that Raziel finds is that he can actually push aside the self, or his own desires, and leave this miserable existence that he loathes, by embracing his fate and simultaneously healing Kain. His self-sacrifice is far more dynamic than any of those heroes you mention will ever achieve. And their moment -- Kain and Raziel -- was magical. It makes Kain's journey that much more profound, knowing what Raziel has done for him and that Raziel actually is with him as his right hand in every swing of the sword Kain carries.
    Well Hylden, I thought Raziel had a lot more going for him. I mean he truly was "unkillable," since he could always come back to the material realm. He would have had millions of years to search for wisdom and answers, and knew so many secrets already as opposed to the rest of the souls in Nosgoth who were cursed to live about 50-80 years and then die and lose all their memories to start over again.

    I was hoping Raziel would return from the Reaver and then, with an even greater understanding of Nosgoth's history, having seen it first hand from within the blade, perhaps he could have found a way into the demon realm to save Janos and even unite with the Hylden to make peace with the vampires and vanquish their common enemy, the Elder God.

    I was also thinking that since the WB was purified, perhaps that would mean Raziel would return as his original and whole vampire self, but with angelic wings and blue skin. This would have allowed players 3 forms to shift between when playing as Raziel-his blood-drinking physical form, his soul-sucking physical-form, and his spectral wraith form. That could also have set up some cool puzzle-solving elements. For instance, players would have to manifest the winged vampire form to fly somewhere, but then would have to revert to Raziel's burnt-wraith body if they needed to swim or pass through a gate.

    Still, I guess you did put that rather well. I really think we needed just one more game with Raziel playable as I described, with a true conclusion. I guess I didn't see Raziel hating his existence so much, it seemed to me that he had come to terms with his appearance in light of his abilities and invulnerabilities.

  17. #117
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    Well, he had, you know, the 1000 years. Plus his mortal lifespan. His wondrous wraith adventures that spanned time itself even if he didn't last long in that form. So what I'm saying is, he lived a full life and got a 2nd, 3rd, and maybe 4th chance at life (I lose count). And he chose a time and place and event of great significance to go out on, not with a whimper but with a transforming moment.

    He had been a rat running a circular maze, and there wasn't supposed to be any meaning to his existence. No cheese. No finish line. But you know what, we shouldn't see him like that anymore because he altered the maze, exposed the cheese, and reached a true finish line. So what if it happened fast and unexpectedly? He was concluded in a very satisfactory manner. He bested the maze, defeated his demons, made the critical deciding move that put history onto a better path. Somebody on team vampire finally figured out the meaning of sacrifice. I don't think there's anything wanting. Wraiths and ghosts aren't supposed to hang around forever, right? They're supposed to find peace. And he made his peace with it all.

    I would like to see other characters emerge who can take advantage of dimensional shifting, though, so that part of the gameplay doesn't go by the boards. Omen had a rich ghost community. Maybe one of them can serve as a hired gun. Or one of the necro wraiths from the empire era could journey into spectral to learn its secrets and spy on Elder and then reinhabit its body and blab it all to Kain the way Dumah had apparently gained occult knowledge and power upgrades while in spectral.

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