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Thread: Raziel is freed from the reaver at def's end...

  1. #51
    If young Kain has the soul + blood sucking soul reaver and William has the blood sucking reaver Kain will have the upper hand (stronger weapon)
    This is not possible. William's weapon was the Soul Reaver. Because a) Kain himself said that and b) if it was BR then Kain won't be able to kill him beacue paradox won't happen.

  2. #52
    In Blood Omen both Soul Reavers "scream" when William & Kain try to hit each other, but the BR never does that.

  3. #53
    This may be known to people already, but I found it confusing. So here's the first part of the Reaver's timeline:

    - Reaver is forged by Vorador
    - Janos guards the Reaver
    - The Sarafan kill Janos and take the Reaver to the Sarafan Stronghold
    - Wraith-Raziel takes it up and kills the Sarafan
    - Kain claims the Reaver
    - Kain discovers the Balance Emblem
    - Raziel enters the Reaver. It becomes the Soul Reaver

    Now here's the rub:

    - Elder Kain places the Soul Reaver in Avernus Cathedral

    What what what? By the time Defiance had come to an end, the younger Kain had already found the Soul Reaver and killed William with it. If the Soul Reaver is with Elder Kain after the Pillars' collapse, and younger Kain has it at the same time, there's something fishy going on...

    So now Kain has to travel back in time once again in order to place the Reaver in Avernus... more backwards time travel to mess with heads in the (potential) next game.

  4. #54
    I could be wrong but I don't recall the reaver screaming when Kain swung it at Raziel.

  5. #55
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    in SR1 it didn´t, Kain just hit Raziel with it. Raziel´s WB however does the screaming sound in the spectral.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Escaton View Post
    This may be known to people already, but I found it confusing. So here's the first part of the Reaver's timeline:

    - Reaver is forged by Vorador
    - Janos guards the Reaver
    - The Sarafan kill Janos and take the Reaver to the Sarafan Stronghold
    - Wraith-Raziel takes it up and kills the Sarafan
    - Kain claims the Reaver
    - Kain discovers the Balance Emblem
    - Raziel enters the Reaver. It becomes the Soul Reaver

    Now here's the rub:

    - Elder Kain places the Soul Reaver in Avernus Cathedral

    What what what? By the time Defiance had come to an end, the younger Kain had already found the Soul Reaver and killed William with it. If the Soul Reaver is with Elder Kain after the Pillars' collapse, and younger Kain has it at the same time, there's something fishy going on...

    So now Kain has to travel back in time once again in order to place the Reaver in Avernus... more backwards time travel to mess with heads in the (potential) next game.
    FOR THE LAST TIME MOEBIUS PUTS THE REAVER IN AVERNUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Linikratyo View Post
    FOR THE LAST TIME MOEBIUS PUTS THE REAVER IN AVERNUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Pics or it didn't happen!

    Seriously though, where does it say it was Moebius?

  8. #58
    It is very simple:

    Kain kills William and the SR is broken.
    Raziel repairs the SR in William's Chapel.

    Now or Moebius gave it to William or he brought it to Avernus and if he brought it back to William then the SR would go in circles: NO OPTION

    Only option left: Moebius brings the SR to Avernus.

  9. #59
    Sorry, you saying so is not proof.

    Kain could travel back in time with the Reaver and place it in Avernus. Moebius could do it. A hamster could do it. There is no conclusive answer to how the Reaver got there (yet).

    There are more options to how this could happen, you just have to be willing to listen. (not the hamster one obviously, as that is plain silly

  10. #60
    Kain overhears a conversation between William and Moebius:

    William
    Yes, these weapons you have provided will see to that. Pray tell, Moebius. What game do you play?

    Moebius
    None, my lord. In only wish to aid you in vanquishing your foes. The weapons are but a token of my good will.

    William
    And the news you bring. A vampire sent to slay me. Where did you come upon such knowledge?

    Moebius
    ‘Tis of no consequence, sire. ‘Twas only out of concern for your Majesty’s life.

    William
    Perhaps, perhaps . . . Very well, then. You may leave me, now. But should I wish to speak with you . . .

    Moebius
    I will know, your Majesty, and I shall be there in time.

    As Kain confronts William:

    William
    Ahhh yes, the Vampire. Moebius told me you would come . . .

    After the fight, and upon being discovered as the murderer of William:

    Kain
    As his guards rushed to save him, William the Just’s blood was already renewing my strength, replacing the life his sword had stolen from my veins. The poor fools, come to aid their fallen leader. Let us have some amusement . . .

    Proof it is moebius. And potentially poof it was a blood reaver. Life from veins not soul

    Kain is not going to hand the reaver to meobius.... IF he did. the reaver william hold breaks, the wraith blade repairs it an Kain uses it throughout defiance in which raziel jumps inside at the end. So IF Kain gives it to Moebius how then does young Kain have a fully functioning version?

    And again it is doubtfull that Kain will hand the one weapon that can now potentially kill him to the one human who was driving the efforts of his death. And thus now how does Moebius get the reaver to give to William?

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranor View Post
    ..replacing the life his sword had stolen from my veins.
    Proof it is moebius. And potentially poof it was a blood reaver. Life from veins not soul
    No, there was no Blood Reaver there. Only Soul Reaver can break another Soul reaver and cause a paradox. You misinterpreted Kain - by saying replacing life his sword (the Soul Reaver) had stolen from my veins = he means the wounds that the blade did to him. Soul Reaver causes wounds, just like any other sword, the only difference is that it devours the soul after impaling.

    Extract from Dark Chronicle (SR2):
    Kain: Moebius propelled William and me together – but ensured first that we were both armed with the Soul Reaver.

    and remember, previously Raziel had always killed Kain in William´s chapel, as a result SR blade was created at the end of SR2. Moebius apparently got the blade and gave it to young William.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Yautjatraker/Albatraous View Post
    Sorry, you saying so is not proof.

    Kain could travel back in time with the Reaver and place it in Avernus. Moebius could do it. A hamster could do it. There is no conclusive answer to how the Reaver got there (yet).

    There are more options to how this could happen, you just have to be willing to listen. (not the hamster one obviously, as that is plain silly
    Ok, but the SR Kain has at the end of Defiance (and in Dark Prophecy ) is not going to be brought to Avernus before it is used by William......

  13. #63
    FOR THE LAST TIME MOEBIUS PUTS THE REAVER IN AVERNUS
    Not sure if that's necessarily the case (sorry if I was mistaken), but in the original Defiance storyline, Kain put it there - probably in the game's epilogue after killing the Elder God in the future.

    However, Moebius can't do anything after Defiance for obvious reasons (his illusion in the Sarafan Stronghold of Kain's conquest era doesn't count), and if the Soul Reaver were to have fallen into his hands earlier it wouldn't be Elder Kain's doing, since Moe had foreseen and done everything he ever could up until Kain's "death".

    I'm still totally bewildered as to where and when Moebius got the Soul Reaver to give to William. Even if there were another paradox, it won't fix things in this particular history.

  14. #64
    Escaton I am going to make a new thread on a new take I just thought of along that line.

    The sword was never called a blood reaver that I recall. It has always been called the soul reaver. Calling it the reaver to shorten the name.

    And my previouse dialogue was quoted from the Blood Omen dialogue on Nosgoth.net

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranor View Post
    The sword was never called a blood reaver that I recall. It has always been called the soul reaver. Calling it the reaver to shorten the name.

    And my previouse dialogue was quoted from the Blood Omen dialogue on Nosgoth.net
    This is the name given to it (by Chris if I remember correctly)to distinguish between blood sucking and soul devouring Reaver.

    Your assumption that there was only 1 SR during Kain´s fight with William and William´s one sucked blood is just wrong.

  16. #66
    Usually, in-game, it alternates between being called the Reaver and Soul Reaver depending on whether it's Razieled or not.

    The Raziel-less Reaver is never actually called the Soul Reaver (note Janos and Vorador's discussions), but I think there are a few minor exceptions to the reverse.

  17. #67
    Another explanation:
    This is from the original storyline

    The Reaver is forged by Vorador
    Janos guards the Reaver
    BR is stolen from Janos
    Raziel uses BR to kill his brothers
    Raziel kills Raziel
    Raziel is sucked into the Reaver
    Moebius brings the Soul Reaver to William
    William is defeated by Kain
    Soul Reaver is broken
    Soul Reaver is repaired by Raziel
    Raziel uses SR to kill Kain
    Moebius takes the Soul Reaver to Avernus Cathedral
    Kain finds the SR
    Kain defeats William
    Kain rules with the Soul Reaver
    Kain fights Raziel with Soul Reaver
    Soul Reaver breaks, because it can't devour its own soul
    Soul Reaver becomes Wraith blade
    WB becomes Raziels symbiotic weapon
    Raziel goes back in time
    Raziel fully awakens the WB by repairing Williams SR
    .............................................................................
    Raziel kills himself
    Raziel is sucked into the SR
    The WB is released from thousand years of torment

    Another statement of Kain in SR2: "Moebius propelled William and me together - but ensured first that we were both armed with the Soul Reaver."

    This works right? but because Raziel doesn't kill Kain and isn't sucked into the Reaver there is no SR to be given to William Now I don't care who gives it, but this is the only thing in the History of the Reaver that is changed.

  18. #68
    But you've still got to explain where Moebius got the Reaver from. He was permanently "dead" after the events of Defiance, yet everything still happened.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Escaton View Post
    But you've still got to explain where Moebius got the Reaver from. He was permanently "dead" after the events of Defiance, yet everything still happened.
    I know, but it has to happen in this way....

  20. #70
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    I was thinking and let me know if it sounds possible:

    So let´s assume that the cut events including Kain returning the blade to avernus took place. So he returns it in the BO era to avernus. Young Kain finds it, he goes to assassinate the young William. Moebius "lends" the Reaver from the Hylden Lord in the future (after HL stole it from Kain) and gives the blade to young William, after Kain vs William battle, Moebius places the Reaver to William´s chapel for Raziel to heal it later and Moebius (the one that is still alive during first part of SR2) will return the repaired Reaver to HL withouth his notice.

  21. #71
    That won't work either. The reaver that gets healed is the one Kain is holding at the end of Defiance.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranor View Post
    That won't work either. The reaver that gets healed is the one Kain is holding at the end of Defiance.
    why it shouldn´t work because of that?

  23. #73
    Seems credible, especially since Moebius looks to have been in charge of the Eternal Prison (where HL sent Magnus and the Builder). But I suppose we can't know how likely it is that the Hylden Lord would willingly give away the Soul Reaver to anybody.

    That won't work either. The reaver that gets healed is the one Kain is holding at the end of Defiance.
    It's also the one young Kain and William are holding in Blood Omen, and the one the Hylden Lord holds in BO2. No problem.

    Actually, now I'm beginning to wonder what happened to Raziel after William's reaver broke. Was his spirit still inside that sword, or did it get out ala SR1?

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Escaton View Post
    Seems credible, especially since Moebius looks to have been in charge of the Eternal Prison (where HL sent Magnus and the Builder). But I suppose we can't know how likely it is that the Hylden Lord would willingly give away the Soul Reaver to anybody.

    It's also the one young Kain and William are holding in Blood Omen, and the one the Hylden Lord holds in BO2. No problem.

    Actually, now I'm beginning to wonder what happened to Raziel after William's reaver broke. Was his spirit still inside that sword, or did it get out ala SR1?
    yeah I thought in the same way. Moebius could use a time-streaming device and get it when HL has stored it somewhere. Since Moebius can operate the device he can go to any moment in time.
    Raziel healed the blade - the WB used his own spirit energy to restore the broken SR.

  25. #75
    it doesn't work because of the swords history. IF it breaks in williams hands it is put to rest in its broken form until the wraith blade repairs after which old Kain is currently using it. Moebius can not return it to the Sarafan Lord.

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