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Thread: The A.I. will make or break this game

The A.I. will make or break this game

  1. #1

    The A.I. will make or break this game

    I haven't seen much discussion on this issue at all. The A.I. in Invisible War was pitiful. The Deus Ex A.I. was alright because on realistic you could die from a head shot.

    What I'm getting at though is that we as the players need A.I. that constantly challenges us. Without that this game is good as dead in the water. I want special agents that come after me during a mission and use powerful nano abilities that kick my butt.

    This happened in Crysis but I was able to beat about 4-5 nano suit wielding A.I.'s a bit too easily. (On the hardest setting)

    In conclusion what I'm asking for is that the game punishes me for playing on the hardest difficulty. I want to spend a few hours on a level getting my butt kicked and having to figure out how to out smart the A.I. That way there is something for those of us seeking a true challenge.

    Lately though I'm beating FPS games because I can figure out the A.I. in a matter of hours. I guess I just have a small niche for figuring out their weaknesses. I hope the QA team on this one shows no mercy and makes the A.I. tough as nails on the hardest setting.

  2. #2
    I also love challenging games, but, if I undertood what you meant correctly, not in the way you like it. When I played Deus Ex, even the first time, it was on realistic and I was saving only at the begining of the level. If I died, I had to redo everything.

    I really hate the "try, die and reload" kind of gameplay. I love when the challenge is with thinking, not repeating the same action over and over until you learn a way. Basically I want the game to kick my butt ONLY if I make a mistake. If I don't, I should not die. The game should punish me for making mistakes, not for playing on hard.

  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by Papy
    I also love challenging games, but, if I undertood what you meant correctly, not in the way you like it. When I played Deus Ex, even the first time, it was on realistic and I was saving only at the begining of the level. If I died, I had to redo everything.

    I really hate the "try, die and reload" kind of gameplay. I love when the challenge is with thinking, not repeating the same action over and over until you learn a way. Basically I want the game to kick my butt ONLY if I make a mistake. If I don't, I should not die. The game should punish me for making mistakes, not for playing on hard.
    But in DX it only did when you made a mistake, or when you simply screwed up the fighting.

  4. #4
    The overall difficulty level is directly linked to the save system.

    On DX it was too untroublesome.

    It's also bound to the foes' accuracy, the damages they inflict and finally to their AI.

    Concerning the AI the ennemies should just take cover, that is all. When the developers put in some "survival instinct" every human is supposed to feel we should have some challenge at last.

    ( Thread added to "Important discussion threads list [look here first]" )

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by gamer0004
    But in DX it only did when you made a mistake, or when you simply screwed up the fighting.
    That's why I think Deus Ex was a great game.


    Originally Posted by jordan_a
    The overall difficulty level is directly linked to the save system.

    On DX it was too untroublesome.
    I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but the same way a player can choose a difficulty level, he can choose if he abuse the save system or not. With games like Deus Ex or Thief, it's quite easy to play with "I'll save only once at the beginning of each level" (like I did).

    Personally, I think that saving every 5 minutes is really like cheating. I won't cheat, I think it's pointless, but I don't see why the game should be troublesome to someone who wish to do so.

  6. #6
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    I used to be one of those players who saved and reloaded a lot but I've changed my habbit recently and I have to admit that gaming became more intense for me. Please no savepoints though - I still want to be able to decide when to save/load my game!

  7. #7
    When it comes about Deus Ex I save only in that crucial moments (once per level) that we all know, like the fights with Gunther and Anna (I stop using the killphrase in my 4th run through the game) and Simons or the escape from the NSF Generator House after you send the signal (Zapping the Unatco buddies with the Prod before to make your escape easier is Lame! )

  8. #8
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    I save and reload so fast that the savesystem doesn't keep up because I save at exactly the same second twice. And sometimes I reload many, many times, in the DX no-item run for instance. When I just shoot everyone I don't reload as often as when I sneak, of course.
    I mostly reload because I don't want to do things again when it was very hard to get it right the first time - like positioning the NPC's in a way that they can't see you. And I don't like it when I could get away, but if it would me cost a lot of items. Because I don't like it to have a hard time doing something because you're out of lockpicks or medkits.
    I also save a lot because the past has showed me that not doing that is really stupid. In some games I did something wrong, but I didn't know that at first so later on I'd have to go all the way back. I simply don't like that.
    Of course, I do always play games at the hardest setting. That way it is a bit more of a challenge.

  9. #9
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    AI for once

    In my opinion AI is what lacks in almost every game, FEAR did a good job of fighting tactics but was partly scripted (i think). Having a cut and dried enemy is a bit old school, what I would like to see in a game is the ability to work around conflict not only by traversing the levels covertly but by persuading less moral persons in the game with money, blackmail etc to gain information, safe passage, weapons etc.

    Lets say for example that you need to bypass a gaurd on a gate, you could snap his neck, on the other hand you could plant drugs on him and have him arrested; then bail him from prison on the condtion of letting you have free passage. Clearly different types of AI should be more or less susceptible to bribes or blackmail, from the police who will take a bit of cash and let you know where someone is staying for the night, to an agent who will rip your head off if you try and approach them.

    A threat level system should also be used, if the level is 1 everybody is calm and the police will ensure law and order, 2 the police will be more aware of things that are out of place and will kick some ass if they need to, 3 the armed police will be deployed to keep things under control but they won't shoot unless they feel threatend, much like the police in the USA. At level 4 a military unit is deployed and they will show no mercy if you piss them off. And at level 5 the agents get deployed they have a good sence of whats going on and can lead all the other units in an effort to find who ever they are looking for.

    Rules Of Engagment (ROE) could also be changed from the standard FPS style, the AI could be set as police, armed police, military, or highly trained agent; I will use another example to convay my thoughts:

    Situation
    You are trying to gain acess to a secure area which is guarded, you need to recce the area and then break in, or blag your way in.

    Police-
    You approach the building and stand around for while trying to figure out whats going on, in deus ex 1 the guard would ask you to back off or shoot you if you got to close, I would like to see the guard approach me and question me; if I don't give the correct answer he will ask me to leave,if I give a really bad answer he will remove me from the area using minimum force. If he saw me hanging around again he might call in the armed police or backup to help, and perhaps if he is really spooked put the threat level on the facility up a level making the later break in harder for me. These guys should be a bit easy going and not sharp shooting trigger happy carzy's.

    Armed police-
    These guys should have slightly better situational awareness and only be deployed if the threat level is 3 or higher or they are responding to a call out, like on my situation. If I draw a gun around these guys they should do every thing they can to take it off me before they shoot me, and when they do shoot the should take single aimed shots taking care not to hit bystanders. They should be fairly hard to bribe or blackmail.

    Military-
    In my situation if these guys were guarding the facility they would turn you away using force (but not deadly force) if you got a gun out they would open fire unless they could get it off you easily (a guy stood next to you hits you and grabs the gun) after that they would remove you from the area and fill you in for being a idiot.

    Highly trained agents-
    These guys would have great situational awarness, if a guard was missing from his post or a body was found they would co-oridinate the search for the suspect, if they saw you they get their guns out and try and take you down.

    These are some of my thoughts about AI, I have a few that I will post later, even if some of this gets used in the game I would be pleased, it really is time to step the AI bar up and perhaps shoot it into space.

    Thanks a lot and keep up the good work, its nice to see the forum has now been spam protected.

  10. #10
    There are some good ideas here. One A.I. I like comes from the game S.T.A.L.K.E.R.:Shadow of Chernobyl. If Warren Spector ever wanted to see emergent game play, he would only need to play up to the second level in that game.

    Areas in that game are constantly under attack by enemy NPC's while you have friendly NPC's fighting to defend it. All kinds of beasts roam around the terrain and will attack you if you provoke them. Very cool indeed.

  11. #11
    I wanted to show the AI uses the crates, against you or to protect themselves, because in the first game the crates are a good strategy ...
    And with the turrets the enemy can't fight against event if they have a RL
    The bots have the same problem (he big bot can't do anything against a turret ...

    The AI sometimes did a good job when we use a scramble grenade against the bots they uses the LAW or throw a grenade to disable the bot or destroy it ...
    And when they try to kill you they aim your head sometimes.



    When we are unconscious the AI can capture us but perhaps it's useless and more simple to make for us knock or died as equals things ...

    I want to:

    See the AI pickup some items and when they pickup the items are in they're inventory of course and we can pickup them when they are died or use our pick pocketing ability or when they are unconscious. *

    See the AI using light, torch devices or special goggles if they suspect our presence on dark places. *

    See the AI using the ladders is some games the AI was idiotic with ladders. *

    See the AI if they are burned go to water places or try to find an extinguisher to stop burning. *

    See the AI can surrender or make a truth if they think they are on a weak position or if they know you won't kill them or if you want to make a conversation to know something and tell them your objectives, but perhaps it's too complex to make negotiations in the game ...

    See the AI using vehicles if we have drivable vehicles like cars or skateboards etc ... *

    See the AI commanding a team if the have leaders and sometimes they can cure some injured teammates *

    The suggestions with stars are the more important things I think, but most of them can be a major AI innovations but if it can't be madded I won't think the game was bad for that, the first game have some lacunas on that matter and it still a great game even today's ...

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Blade_hunter
    I want to:

    See the AI pickup some items and when they pickup the items are in they're inventory of course and we can pickup them when they are died or use our pick pocketing ability or when they are unconscious. *

    See the AI using light, torch devices or special goggles if they suspect our presence on dark places. *

    See the AI using the ladders is some games the AI was idiotic with ladders. *

    See the AI if they are burned go to water places or try to find an extinguisher to stop burning. *

    See the AI can surrender or make a truth if they think they are on a weak position or if they know you won't kill them or if you want to make a conversation to know something and tell them your objectives, but perhaps it's too complex to make negotiations in the game ...

    See the AI using vehicles if we have drivable vehicles like cars or skateboards etc ... *

    See the AI commanding a team if the have leaders and sometimes they can cure some injured teammates *
    I agree with most of these.

    As for guards picking up items however, this really isnt necessary. It also failed very hard in oblivion so unless the team is REALLY confident they can implement it to work well, I wouldnt bother. I wouldnt mind if the AI went and bought emselves a soda or drink when they were at bars however.

    Please god no skateboards. I cannot express how stupid that would look. As far as cars go, there is no need. Just seems like extra work for something that isnt worth it.

  13. #13
    I agree with the sentiments here to some extent. A lot of games these days make a game harder by a.) spawning more enemies, b.) giving enemies more health, and c.) increasing their damage.

    I absolutely hate that. It is very very lazy design. If the only way to add challenge to your game is to do that, you should not be developing a game. Smarter A.I. is far more interesting and fun to fight against than A.I. that has wall hacks and can kill you in two shots.

  14. #14

    Post

    Originally Posted by Kneo24
    I agree with the sentiments here to some extent. A lot of games these days make a game harder by a.) spawning more enemies, b.) giving enemies more health, and c.) increasing their damage.

    I absolutely hate that. It is very very lazy design. If the only way to add challenge to your game is to do that, you should not be developing a game. Smarter A.I. is far more interesting and fun to fight against than A.I. that has wall hacks and can kill you in two shots.
    Very true. I'd like to see smarter enemies in later levels and higher difficulties, not equally stupid enemies with more armour/arsenal. Give an idiot a flamethrower and he remains an idiot...

    I'd like to see some lone wolf style soldiers as well i.e. ones that don't call for help when they see you, just silently try to approach you from behind. Definitely not all the guards, but a handful in each enemy base I infiltrate, to keep me on my toes.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Voltaire
    I'd like to see some lone wolf style soldiers as well i.e. ones that don't call for help when they see you, just silently try to approach you from behind. Definitely not all the guards, but a handful in each enemy base I infiltrate, to keep me on my toes.
    I like this... NO!... I LOVE THIS! I remember, on a lone wolf mission in Operation Flashpoint, I approached an enemy base just after sunrise (I think the mission was even called Lone Wolf), and used explosives, and a rocket to take out some of the enemy vehicles. When the enemy soldiers soldiers began running around the map, hunting in packs, I gunned them down, after a few tires. It was the last remaining enemy, however, who gave me a run for the money, so to speak. I knew I had been fired upon by him many times before, and each time he had changed position, just like I had, when hunting his buddies. I also knew that unlike his buddies he was hunting ALONE.

    After what seemed a long time since I thought I had killed all of my enemies, I still got shot at (i.e., shots came towards my general direction), and even on the few occasions that I caught a glimpse of where the shot had come from, by the time I got to the site there was no one there. I thought about another mission, where I had to snipe teams of enemies, with each sniping at my buddies and me, but that mission was no match for the excitement in this: I was even afraid to crawl from cover to cover; just that I was forced to, knowing unless I moved this guy would surely get me.

    As more shots rang out, a single shot, nearly each time, I realized that the enemy was very determined, and was able and willing to move near and far, up hills and down vales, through bush and bare dirt, from tree to tree, seemingly each time getting his shots closer, and eerily closer to me. I knew it had to be a sniper.

    It was duel, and phrases like "enemy at the gate," and "assassin at the gate" (from some poem) ran through my mind, as I decided between the satisfaction of going after the best AI I had ever seen (and have seen, till date), and just commandeering the the one tank that I had spared, and leaving through the compound's front gate. I couldn't resist the temptation. Even with Operation Flashpoint's (notorious, IMO) one save per mission system I went after that AI, shooting at him from behind wrecked (and some undamaged) vehicles, bushes, around the corners of buildings, around the corners of the compound's fence, etc., eventually, myself, going near, and far, over the hill, and down the vale, through cover that is thick and thin, from tree to tree, until I caught sight of something moving in the distance, some way up the hill, from me. Quickly, I aimed, and pulled the trigger, and then scampered off, to hide, lest he be bleeding, rather than dead, or even unhurt. After a few moments of not hearing any further shots, and not seeing any changes in the enemy's position, between taking peaks with the scope/binoculars (I don't remember which), I decided that I might have killed him, and approached the enemy, going from cover to cover, as if he was still alive. Even when I saw him lying still, at close range, I very gingerly moved up to him. Finally, I confirmed him dead, and stole the one tank I had spared, and drove it out the front gate (or maybe it was another vehicle I stole: that part of my memory is hazy, and it makes sense to not steal any other vehicle, when there is a sniper on the loose).

    _______________________________________________

    THAT is the kind of lone wolf AI that I would like to see in the next DX.

  16. #16
    In red faction 1 one think I loved with the AI is when you stick a bomb o your enemy, he runs and he's teammates fire on him because he runs to them and he explodes and I don't needed to press the trigger or put a bomb to avoid they're coming they tried to fire on the bomb to go inside the room where I am.
    The AI wasn't perfect but they have some good points.

    In DX the AI have something realistic not perfectly but we've got some realm sometimes when we throw a grenade and when they don't see us they look to the grenade before running, when we burn them they run like RF (DX was the first to give this ^^)
    When you run fast to be hidden most of times they stay at the last place were they see or hear you even if sometimes little noises makes them under alert or sometimes they looks dumb when the alarm is sounded ...

    But some innovations with the AI are welcome

  17. #17
    You know what I would FRIGGEN LOVE!?!?!?

    The exact same A.I used in the Game F.E.A.R

    By far the most intelligant enemies I have ever faced. They can jump through windows and duck down for cover and move around and hide and sprint and blitz through wallways in order to evade your fire. I want Deus Ex 3 to have
    A.I just like that. Where they can counter or predict your movements and skillfully take you out! Where they can push over a couch or table and use it for cover or jump through windows duck down behind the wall and pop out and shoot out at you through cover or put their back to the wall and through a grenade at you without exposing themselfs to you.


    Basically the most advanced and soffisticated (Sp?) A.I Possible!
    Maybe create an ultra advanced program where it can actually learn and
    take what It learns and becomes even harder as your playing it or when you keep playing it so that even if you find a stratigy that works far beyond its
    A.I limits it can learn from it and become even smarter, Forcing you to be even more creative and work harder to beat the game!

    Or just use more stealth so they never notice you!

  18. #18
    I havnt played F.E.A.R., Operation Flashpoint, or Red Faction, but i do have S.T.A.L.K.E.R., and the AI in that is pretty good.
    I think that given the development of AI in recent games, we need not really worry about DX3 having stupid enemies.

  19. #19
    I don't know about that: Operation Flashpoint came out years before DX1; also, the team behind DX1 had people from the (then long ago released) Thief series, whose AI (IMO) was better than the DX1 enemy AI (in that the guards went off to call their friends, if they took too much damage, and then their buddies would thoroughly search the entire premises -- I would like to see the DX3 AI use team tactics during these searches, storming rooms, like SWAT/special forces teams).

    While I don't think the AI will make or break this game (it did not break DX1), I DEFINITELY would enjoy better enemies. I don't know why, but I think I enjoyed the enemy AI in Half-Life1 better (especially the black clad assassins), despite the fact that DX1 is my favorite game of all time.

  20. #20
    The black assassins haven't really a special AI they have a faster move than you and they can make very high jumps. It's that thing makes them stronger than marines.
    In STALKER the AI is good and we have good possibilities in this game, FEAR has a great AI, yes but the possibilities in the game are somewhat reduced compared to STALKER. I think the possibilities can make the AI more or less difficult to code and simulate an human reaction too.
    And the fails are more difficult to code than some perfectness.
    It's more difficult to code an enemy that simulate an human accuracy than a 100% accuracy.
    Its more difficult to make an enemy that can take care about the crates than an enemy than can't take care about.
    and we have more examples for that.
    I we haven't a perfect AI that's not a real problem I think but the AI must be correct (More evolved than the previous DX's of course) but make a perfect AI I don't think we can now but make a correct AI that can react and take care about some elements like windows, crates, grenades, explosive barrels, barriers and other movable or breakable obstacles.

  21. #21

    Post

    I have mentioned on another thread that DX1 was plagued with stupid, stupid friendly AI. Like seriously. In battery park, right after the fire fight near (not in) the subway, my UNATCO buddies boxed me into one of those shelters for the bums.

    And they wouldn't move They had to be tazered in the end...

    This was basic bad AI even in 2000. Normally a friendly NPC makes a big deal of keeping their distance to avoid that kind of idiocy.

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by Kneo24
    I agree with the sentiments here to some extent. A lot of games these days make a game harder by a.) spawning more enemies, b.) giving enemies more health, and c.) increasing their damage.

    I absolutely hate that. It is very very lazy design. If the only way to add challenge to your game is to do that, you should not be developing a game. Smarter A.I. is far more interesting and fun to fight against than A.I. that has wall hacks and can kill you in two shots.
    The PS2 game, Black is highly reminiscent of that. I shot enemies with THREE seperate bursts of my assault rifle,to the head before they went down. Once I got halfway through that piece of , I put it down. They should have made the checkpoints a lot more frequent in that game as well.

  23. #23
    The assault rifle in the game does a bad damage per shot and shoot too fast instead of other weapons.
    the AR does 3x5 points (15 points) of damage and you hear 4 shots
    you can't spent only one bullet with this weapon because it's default mode is a tracer mode 5 shots when triggered.
    I preferred a slower ROF and more damage per shots as I've said in an other thread and this makes the AR a not good weapon when we are unskilled with rifles the sniper rifle can use only one shot even if we are unskilled it's hard but not impossible, in the roofs tops of the NSF generator level I used my Sniper rifle and I taken dawn most of my enemies with only one shot ...
    The AR makes a "good" damage only when we are mastered on the rifle skill (a burst in a heat takes down a single enemy, but we spent so much ammo, it's for that main reason the AR and the SR have separates ammo (I think) the caliber of these rifles are pretty close one for other 7.62 mm NATO and 30 - 06 caliber, the bullet aren't the same but making 3 for the 7.62 mm NATO and 25 for the 30 - 06 caliber it's not logical.
    because these rifles caliber are somewhat the same.
    making only the AR ammo in common with the SR will not appropriate in DX 1
    the opposite thing too.
    Some times the AI in the first game has some bugs, but it's rare and some games after DX and even some games wanted to make a DX like game sometimes have a poor AI compared to DX even some FPS more later with no special features.
    The DX 2 AI is pretty bad because they madded the game for consoles ....
    In 2000 I've played to SOF and the AI wasn't intelligent throw a grenade the enemies didn't run but at this time rare are the games that got a good AI
    now in some games we have an AI that works like the HL AI for the marines;
    The last SOF called SOF 3 has a scriped AI .... :/ compared to SOF 2 the last game was very ugly in therms of AI (console ?)

  24. #24
    Originally Posted by Blade_hunter
    the bullet aren't the same but making 3 for the 7.62 mm NATO and 25 for the 30 - 06 caliber it's not logical.
    because these rifles caliber are somewhat the same.
    The assault rifle has to deal less damage because of the game balance. It shoot bursts. If it was as powerful as the sniper rifle (or even a pistol), it would make all other firearms useless.

    In my eyes, the AI in DXIW is as good (or as bad) as in DX. It has a few improvements (dodging bullets), a few flaws (poor "alliance" management - it causes allies to attack us for some unclear reasons) but they don't make much of a difference. I'd like the NPCs in DX3 to have some more advanced AI - team tactics, hiding behind cover, that sort of things.

  25. #25
    Yes but look at the sawed off shot gun and the assault shotgun, they makes different damage the sawed off 25, the assault 20
    If the assault rifle have a lower ROF and better fire power and keep the fact when you shot some bullets the weapon becomes more inaccurate this is more balanced and makes this gun more tactical to use. and only with it's primary ammo.
    The AR must deal less damage than the SR because it's an automatic weapon , in most other games when they have an AR the gun deals a good amount of damage and never makes a sniper rifle useless.

    If the gun fires 400 - 450 rounds per minute and makes 6 - 8 damage points and lose a bit more quickly it's accuracy with a continuous fire we have a weapon that can make a good amount of damage and have more tactical uses, in the game; I often used this gun to spend ammo and for close range combats.

    Most way's can balance the weapons some weapons are ballanced but some others aren't very ballanced

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