Thread: Themes to explore...

Themes to explore...

  1. #1

    Themes to explore...

    So, which themes could be taken für Deus Ex 3? Here are my suggestions:

    - Love with a machine. I almost fell in love with sweet NG, the AI, not the original. Why not explore the option when the border between machine and human is thinning out already?

    - Ghost in a Shell. Where does humanity stop? Is is freedom of decision? Is it about a soul, and how do you define it? Are you a machine or a man?

    - Perfect Society. What could be better than a democracy, how could it work? The endings of IW point towards this theme and there seems to be plenty of room to follow up on and play through these ideas.

    - Heroes Path. A no brainer and the backbone of every good story. The main character develops from a nobody to a hero, by having to take a route through hell, reemerging and having learnt what it takes.

  2. #2
    Let's leave that to Eidos Montreal.
    Originally Posted by Falkenherz
    So, which themes could be taken für Deus Ex 3? Here are my suggestions:

    - Love with a machine. I almost fell in love with sweet NG, the AI, not the original. Why not explore the option when the border between machine and human is thinning out already?
    You're kidding about NG I hope. I don't think DX3 will be a sandbox kind of game with dozens of romance options like for example KOTOR. Nevertheless, it's a theme they can explore, but NOT for the player character.
    Originally Posted by Falkenherz
    - Ghost in a Shell. Where does humanity stop? Is is freedom of decision? Is it about a soul, and how do you define it? Are you a machine or a man?
    I think this was a theme in DX (depending on who you ask, JC was pretty much built from the ground up, like a bio-android, though other persist he was a full-blood human before he got augmented, which is really very unlikely the farther you progress in the game and the more background info you get, such as the "Incept Date" memo you find, much like a Blade Runner "Incept Date"). So that's pretty self-evident.
    Originally Posted by Falkenherz
    - Perfect Society. What could be better than a democracy, how could it work? The endings of IW point towards this theme and there seems to be plenty of room to follow up on and play through these ideas.
    Again, self-evident. Democracy is far from perfect and Anarchism can come much closer (not that we're ready for it right now, then again..). 'Benevolent dictators' (oxymoronic) are even worse than democracy, but I like how the DX endings allow you to make these gigantic mistake.
    Originally Posted by Falkenherz
    - Heroes Path. A no brainer and the backbone of every good story. The main character develops from a nobody to a hero, by having to take a route through hell, reemerging and having learnt what it takes.
    LMAO, a no-brainer? How is that? DX is NOT Oblivion:TES. DX is a 'grey area' type of game where heroism is virtually non-existent. And again, DX is not your average completely open-ended RPG, so I REALLY don't see how the player should start out a nobody.

  3. #3
    Heroism is just less obvious because world isn't black and white and good deeds don't pay well, still player can act like a hero in many ways. Heroitic acts are usually the little things which go unnoticed.

    few examples...

    -saving paul.
    -Helping Sandra and his father to become a family again.
    -Giving credits unselfesly to grey death victims
    -Aiding the hospital doctor with his angry patient problem
    -Using non leathal force when being an unetco operative
    -Giving food to kids
    -Rescuing Savage's daughter..
    -Not shooting lebedev when ordered to do so.

    etc etc.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Caradoc
    Heroism is just less obvious because world isn't black and white and good deeds don't pay well, still player can act like a hero in many ways. Heroic acts are usually the little things which go unnoticed.

    few examples...[...]
    I didn't say the player couldn't 'play heroicly', just that I don't want any of the typical RPG nobody-farmboy/girl turns wizard-apprentice turns heroic saviour-type mechanic (replace farmboy/girl and wizard with whatever and you have the blueprint for pretty much any RPG ever made).
    Originally Posted by Falkenherz
    - Heroes Path. A no brainer and the backbone of every good story. The main character develops from a nobody to a hero, by having to take a route through hell, reemerging and having learnt what it takes.
    Again, it's not a no brainer and a "Heroes Path" isn't the backbone of every good story (unless, obviously, you don't read books or watch films and just play RPGs all day). I can see how, from having played DX:IW, that you could get the distinct impression the player starts out as a nobody (as Alex Denton, quite literally, is the very personification of a blank slate), although he actually stays that way throughout the entire game.

  5. #5
    Do not confuse ´heroism´ with the ´hero´s path´.

    Each main character of a story is a ´hero´ or a ´anti-hero´. The hero´s path is about a path an individual takes, undergoing tests and experiencing dilemmas, and by managing them, reaches one step further on elightenment. This is the hero´s path, which has already been employed by antique theater, and this sceme underlies almost every story. Again, I am not talking about ´super heros´ or the peasant-to-lord-mechanism. These are but cheap iterations of this antique theme, which is more about a philosophical path to personal enlightenment (which in turn elevates you about the others - thus a ´hero´).

    The hero´s path can roughly be described as:

    Normal existence -> relevation -> dilemma -> loss -> reemergence -> enlightenment.

  6. #6
    In this context, you are talking about the protagonist, not hero. Hero is a very different concept in English.

  7. #7
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    Personally, i never see any of the Dentons except Paul behaving anything resembling what a hero should do. and i don't want to see that kind of Hero-ish theme. It maybe good with Medieval RPG, where you slay the dragon, rescue the prince, and become king then happily ever after. No, Deus Ex is never such games that's why i love it so much. In DX:IW it's even explicitly mentioned : "There is no right or wrong choices" i suggest DX 3 stays true to that formula.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by m72
    Personally, i never see any of the Dentons except Paul behaving anything resembling what a hero should do. and i don't want to see that kind of Hero-ish theme. It maybe good with Medieval RPG, where you slay the dragon, rescue the prince, and become king then happily ever after. No, Deus Ex is never such games that's why i love it so much. In DX:IW it's even explicitly mentioned : "There is no right or wrong choices" i suggest DX 3 stays true to that formula.
    Actually, the game has many good hero themes (as mentioned in a above post) -- right down to the 3 endings (they all imply trying to do something good for the world, not just himself -- it's the slay the dragon and rid the world of it's presence and it's evilness moment).

    Despite JC's troubled past and psychological makeup, he is basically a good guy (he has to be because of the initials of his name stands for).

    He's not Batman. He's not Lucifer.

    JC is trying to find his own way in a world that was taken from him. No normal life, yet he knows right from wrong -- Jesus Christ would know this!

    The wonderful illusion of the game is there's no perceived right or wrong, yet the character has to make right decisions. If he doesn't, he's the world he's trying to reform.

    He became a UNATCO agent for a reason, afterall. Folks don't become international cops so they can be the bad guy, ya know? Cops have visions to do heroic deeds to help citizens, much like the firefighters of 9/11 also showed.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Falkenherz
    So, which themes could be taken für Deus Ex 3? Here are my suggestions:

    - Love with a machine. I almost fell in love with sweet NG, the AI, not the original. Why not explore the option when the border between machine and human is thinning out already?
    I'm in love with a Cylon. Does that count?


  10. #10
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    Well, there is a difference between doing what you think is right and doing what really good to the world.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by ricwhite
    I'm in love with a Cylon. Does that count?

    Only if you did not have sloppy seconds.

  12. #12
    cmon guys lets stick to DX here. im really excited about the fact that the devs read the forums to get the fans point of view. lets not discredit ourselves by talking about how blue our balls are. go rub one out and lets keep the creativity flowing.

  13. #13
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    LOL.

    Personally all the themes listed above should be incorporated. Not so much number one, maybe as a side mission or something, but the the rest for sure.

  14. #14
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    i think we should dump theme number 4. We can be the hero but we can choose not to and become say a villain or anything that you want to be.

  15. #15
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    I know this sounds terrible, but I'd like to be the bad guy. Like, the guy responsable for plunging humanity into the dark ages. THAT would be different.

  16. #16
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    I'd think you can do that in DX, and i'd like to see the side conspiracy like the Coffee Wars in IW

  17. #17
    A perfect society is a very anti-cyberpunk theme. The society in DX1 was very dystopian, and needed someone like JC to be its savior. JC, Jesus Christ anyone?

    Also, i dont know about IW, im not sure what they were going for there, (i dont think the writer even knew) but in DX1 the 3 endings were meant to show the impefections of the 3 societies that would have been created out of the 3 possible choices JC could have made. Now matter how you want to improve the imperfect state of the world, you cant turn it into complete perfection. Not everyone will be happy, no matter what you choose. So the theme of the perfect society is really only reflected in reasons for which it cannot exist.

    There are SO MANY other themes in this game, and while there have been many brainstorming sessions like this on the forums, ultimately the writers of the game have the final say. I just hope the writers are as fresh, original, insightful and competent as the ones hired for DX1.

  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by m72
    I'd think you can do that in DX, and i'd like to see the side conspiracy like the Coffee Wars in IW
    No damn that sucked.
    WTO and the ORder church, two opposing factions, turn out to be the same organisation.
    Pequod's and QueeQuegg's, two opposing branches, turn out to be the same organisation. I mean, how lame is that?

  19. #19
    Here are some stuff that could be added in.
    Helping The Homeless like giving children food for information

    Selling and buying Drugs..A.K.A Zyme!

    A large ammount of Mini Quests like Saving people,Finding things,Getting the
    water running again...

    Saving hostages

    Joining a Street gang to take down a rival street gang for controll over the western and eastern side of the city.


    Revisiting The ton hotel ect...

  20. #20

    Corporations & Govt

    One of the things I remember liking about the Deus Ex was the discussion of the relationship between capitalism, corporations and government -- hinting at the way that corporations and government "might" be working in tandem in order to create a closed system of managing human bodies for profit.
    I don't remember this discussion being continued into Invisible War - at least not explicitly. It could very easily be tied in with other themes, such as some people have mentioned above: e.g. is freedom the ability to choose between alternatives? It also ties in well with the whole "identity" and "human nature" theme that the cyborg motif investigated.
    However, it also seems like there should be some option for the player to pursue a path that is inspired by at least a glimmer of hope that the future is not total doom, the abandonment of the human, or some technological mysticism. I dunno. It seemed like an important part of JC's character was embodied in his constant humanitarian concerns.

  21. #21

    The Great White Whale

    Originally Posted by gamer0004
    No damn that sucked.
    WTO and the ORder church, two opposing factions, turn out to be the same organisation.
    Pequod's and QueeQuegg's, two opposing branches, turn out to be the same organisation. I mean, how lame is that?
    Actually, if they had wanted they could have built on the Moby references to make the storyline even more complex - with interesting existential implications.