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Thread: Sneaking

Sneaking

  1. #1
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    Sneaking

    I'm sorry to bother everyone around here with yet another topic about DX and DX:IW and what they should and shouldn't do in DX3, but this is really important (to me, that is).
    As some people will remember, I'm trying to finish DX:IW with no items (that go in your inventory) or augs.
    To do that I'll have to sneak, of course.
    The point is that planning your actions in DX took by far the most time. But when you had come up with a good plan you knew it would be possible and after 1 or 2 tries (sometimes a bit more) it worked.
    In DX:IW, on the other hand, you don't know. The lack of a cheat function doesn't really help, either, but that's not the point.
    In IW, you don't know how enemies are going to react. Both humans and robots behave completely irrational. Turrets hear your footsteps (how could an AI recognize enemy footsteps while there are allied troops nearby?) and humans can hear you sneak when you're 15 feet away from them. So you end up endlessely reloading your saved game, trying to pull it off.
    Besides that, when you are sneaking it feels like the game is using an electronic dice: sometimes they hear you, sometimes they don't. So if you want to sneak across a room you move a little bit, save, move further, save etc. until they 'hear' you and you have to load. That happens quite a lot and even sneaking a few feet is a pain in the ***.

    Besides that, it feels like there is an electronic dice for detecting you when both you and the enemie don't move as well. When I was trying to sneak in the church, for instance, I reloaded a saved game because I had been spotted. Directely after the map had been loaded, they 'heard' me. I hadn't even moved!
    Same for turrets. The turret points north-west, to north, to north-east.
    I am south of it, 15 feet above the ground. I wait there for the human enemies to calm down (the turret keeps scanning).
    Then suddenly, after about 5 minutes, it suddenly decides to have seen me, points towards me and starts to fire. It couldn't even scan ('see') me!

    It is a good idea that sneaking on metal makes more noice than sneaking on carpet (sneaking in DX was a little bit too easy), but at least give us the opputunity to sneak at half speed but completely silent. I mean, if you move really slow and cautious it is possible for about everyone (let alone a trained agent) to make no noise at all, even on metal.

    It might sound like the AI is simply a little bit too sensitive, and that it's simply supposed to be a challenge (I don't think many people have tried to sneak in DX:IW. I tried it once or twice, but immediately decided to just shoot everyone because sneaking was so annoying).
    But no, it is not a really (nice) challenge, because of the very alert guards. Like I said, sometimes they hear you sneak when you're 15 feet away, but for some reason sometimes they completely fail to notice you even when you're running in front of them. And that's even stupider.

    So I like a sneak system a bit more challenging than the one in DX, but completely unlinke the one in DX:IW, because it is merely annoying.

    P.S. Sorry for my bad English.

  2. #2
    I thought this was because DX:IW NPCs weren't sensitive to light levels, so you'd be spotted whether you were concealed in the dark or illuminated by light.

  3. #3
    I had immense fun in playing IW without this virtual giant packpack, holding flamethrowers, guns, dozens of grenades, katana, etcs. The avatar wears some simple clothing an a pistol. Period. Perhaps you can add a baton, but that´s it!

    So try playing it this way! It is fun. The only thing which annoys me is that the weak spot of the templar armor is not weak enough for my pistol. Lots of cloaking required...

    What I want to say is that the option to play this game in "realistic" mode without this backpack of arms, is nice to have!

    The most challenging level is the mako facility; try sneaking there, but without the cloaking biomod. No one is to see you, appart from the scripted scientist-encounters. This is tough and rewarding, and I am glad that this option was possible in game play. Dear developers, please keep this in mind!

  4. #4
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    I've already finished MAKO without any items.
    I'm now in Antartica, but I'm really concerned about what's next.
    There is an annoying turret you can't evade, and when I come back there will be templar's waiting for me. I don't think I'll be able to sneak past them and they can easily kill me.
    Hope they are armed with flamethrowers, their reach is limited :P

  5. #5
    The AI on IW was plain dumb I would be on one side of the map and the people on the other side would hear me and investigate

  6. #6

    Snkeaking needs a Graphical overhall as well as AI improvements

    I believe the simple system used in games like TCoR: Escape from Butcher Bay (tinted view with fish eye lens) would be very helpful. Obviously it would need to be tweaked to fit with the deus ex style, but this approach allows the player to know he in out of sight without breaking immersion.

    Also the AI needs to be mush more aware of noise (different surface make more noise) as well as there approach to finding you (chuck grenades to flush you out or use flash lights)

  7. #7
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    ^
    Yes, similar to how Thief works I guess.
    I prefer the option of using stealth in these kind of games... much more immersive, especially if the AI is on-the-ball.

  8. #8
    Yet another reason IW wasn't much better than mediocre. Sure, there were some annoying moments in DX, but at least I could walk at normal speed for some distance behind a guard before I had to go to the crawl position.

  9. #9
    Proper sneaking is pretty much nonexistant in DX:IW unless you just have a silenced pistol and pick everyone off.
    When I first played the game, I picked up a baton, carefully made my way behind an enemy and delivered what i was expecting to be an incapacitating blow to the back of his head. Instead, this resulted in a small spray of blood (for a baton??) and the enemy merely turning around to see who it was that was lightly tickling his scalp.

    From then on, I gave up sneaking and just shot everyone. which could still be regarded as sneaking if you used the silencer, but in my books that's cheating.

  10. #10
    Ab's I agree with you entirely.
    I love the ability to play that stealthy agent type.

    And sneaking up nice and close to an enemy, Clonking them in the head.
    Then hiding their body and buggering off is exceptionally fun.

    However I found like yourself The tazer was naff and the baton was ball's and I ended up having a pistol with a silencer and extra damage because it was the only way of being stealthy.

  11. #11
    Consider the baton from deus ex 1 versus dx 2

    a flaccid whippy thing and a solid no nonsense night stick

    I've gotta say the baton from DX 2 was a saving grace...I wiped out the mosque on my return to cairo (minus the bot and paladins) with only a baton and a cloak mod

    from the very first time I took out the first order seeker at Tarsus academy with a blow to the back of the head...a love was born

    I've said this elsewhere, but I think it bears repeating - the nonlethal stealthy inventory needs an overhaul - give the player as many tools to knock your opponents out/stun them/blind them as you do to kill them.

  12. #12
    ^^ I agree with that. It's so satisfying NOT to kill every hostile NPC. It's not Halo

  13. #13
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    ^
    Yes, I second that.
    I personally prefer to use stealth and a silent knockout; having to kill everyone/thing in order to achieve an objective is very tedious and often unrealistic.

  14. #14
    One of the best things with Deus Ex is the satisfaction when one finished a mission objective without knocking down or hurting anyone, and just being an invisible sneaker.

    Originally Posted by gamer0004
    In DX:IW, you don't know how enemies are going to react. Both humans and robots behave completely irrational. Turrets hear your footsteps (how could an AI recognize enemy footsteps while there are allied troops nearby?) and humans can hear you sneak when you're 15 feet away from them.
    I remember from some interview when the game was in development that the guards and machines would appearantly be suspicious if they heard footsteps that wasn't coming from the patrol path or something like that. I don't think they did that very well.

  15. #15
    The entire stealth system in IW was broken. You couldn't hide really at all. We were told there would be a thief/splinter cell type gameplay mechanic with a light indicator, but it never surfaced. The enemies in IW just didn't seem to have stealth mechanics built in. They just found and shot you.
    That was the only major disappointment for me regarding IW. I just couldn't sneak.

  16. #16
    I would like to add my voice to the people who think there should be as many stealth tools available to the player as is (reasonably) possible, make the playstyle worth doing (Though not too easy I suspect). I reckon stealth will be one of the hardest things for the devs to pull off with DX3, it'll need plenty of time on the development schedule certainly.

  17. #17
    Just as the OP says, the AI will make or break stealth. Making AI that shoots back when you go in guns blazing is the easy part, but giving it enough intelligence to be suspicious when you're sneaking without it instantly picking you up is going to be very difficult indeed.

    Stealth shouldn't just be about keeping out of the guard's field of vision. Sometimes the best way to blend is to make yourself look and sound the same as everyone else. I'm not asking for a complete redesign of the game to bring in disguises but I am suggesting that the AI changes significantly from DX1.

    For instance if the player is infiltrating a lab then the guards should react differently to seeing or hearing him depending on where he is. While you're outside in the security perimeter the guards are going to get suspicious if they see or hear anything out of place. However, once you're inside the lab, hearing footsteps and seeing someone walking normally through the lab wouldn't arouse undue suspicion. Running, hiding where you can be seen or drawing a weapon would get the guard's attention though.

    Going back outside the lab, light and dark should be a very important part of stealth, it shouldn't just be about cover. Avoiding detection is about cover and concealment; just because you are in plain view of someone, doesn't mean they can see you if you're obscured by a shadow or you blend in with your surroundings. Granted, it was far too easy to hide from the AI in DX1 but there's no denying that shadows make up a huge part of stealth. If anything they're the most exciting bit; nothing is more scary than the moment of terror when a guard stares into the shadow you're hiding in and you have no idea whether he can see you or not.

  18. #18
    I really loved that bit in DX where you hack a computer and issue yourself a security pass and basically get a guided tour.

    It was a great change in pace.

    Felt just like James Bond, especially when I stole the aug canisters and they assumed I was from head office or something.

    I think they could definitely expand on that for 3.

    They could tie it into the inventory system and make it an advantage of certain weapons (i.e. Sawn off shotgun concealable, plasma gun not so much) or certain clothing.

    The whole thing doesn't have to be like "Hitman" but it'd certainly add some variety.

    I agree that "out of place" could be applied to lots of stuff. Lab full of people walking around and me hopping onto some crates shouldn't be that out of place a sound.

  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by Lobotomy Lobster
    If anything they're the most exciting bit; nothing is more scary than the moment of terror when a guard stares into the shadow you're hiding in and you have no idea whether he can see you or not.
    I want Thief 4...

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    I want Thief 4...
    I'd definitely play it, but...
    I can't seem to get into Thief 3. I mostly enjoy the gameplay mechanics, it's just the stupid and pretty much nonsensical storyline just annoys the hell out of me. They try to make it lighthearted and slightly whimsical whilst still making it seem as if there's some thick plot you should be interested in. Doesn't work for me. Also, Americans might find the medieval Middle-English spoof accents funny because they maybe don't know the English accent so well, but I find them obnoxious.

    "I be's sees ya"

    Sorry, wrong place to rant about this.

  21. #21
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    Originally Posted by Absentia
    "I be's sees ya"
    That's from the pagans dude. They talk like that because they aren't a part of mainstream society. They live in the wild mostly. So obviously their English is going to be a little off... duh.

  22. #22
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    Originally Posted by Absentia
    I'd definitely play it, but...
    I can't seem to get into Thief 3. I mostly enjoy the gameplay mechanics, it's just the stupid and pretty much nonsensical storyline just annoys the hell out of me. They try to make it lighthearted and slightly whimsical whilst still making it seem as if there's some thick plot you should be interested in. Doesn't work for me. Also, Americans might find the medieval Middle-English spoof accents funny because they maybe don't know the English accent so well, but I find them obnoxious.

    "I be's sees ya"

    Sorry, wrong place to rant about this.
    I loved the Pagan incantations about the Manfools, hehe.

    Yeah, I'm looking forward to Thief 4 too.
    But I hope Eidos give us back a free-roaming city, the thieves' highway, the rope arrow (PLEASE!!!) and many more secret switches and passages. I missed all of that in Thief 3 and it is definitely my least favourite game in the series.

  23. #23
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    Thief 2 was obviously the best one of the three. I hated how in thief 3 i couldn't knock someone out with my blackjack if they had their sword out and they were looking for me. I mean come on, it doesn't matter if they are looking for me, if i jump out real quick and smack them in the face all of a sudden-like, they are going down. And you couldn't blackjack someone you just flashbombed in Deadly Shadows either... game companies really need to stop messing with the mechanics of classic games. If its not broken then why try to fix it!!!

  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    game companies really need to stop messing with the mechanics of classic games. If its not broken then why try to fix it!!!
    Because modern game companies always perceive the complex and innovative mechanics of classic games as failures and not "accessible" enough and therefore they try to "refine" them by either altering them radically or removing them completely. It is a sad, yet true fact of the industry lately. Who knows, maybe it is a cyclic process and one day we will have game development studios that aren't scared to use complex mechanics that require more than a swirl of an analogue stick to accomplish.

  25. #25
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    I understand it though. Game companies have gotten too big. They have too many employees and as such, are required to sell games so they don't go out of business. So you can see why they are afraid of doing anything that might not sell very well. After all, one flop could ruin a company, especially a relatively new one like EM. Didn't the original DX development team only have like a few dudes? I remember that picture of the team at the end of the credits, and if the entire dev team could fit onto one little pic like that, then that's not a very big team.

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