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Thread: Melchiah's clan brainstorming

Melchiah's clan brainstorming

  1. #1

    Melchiah's clan brainstorming

    As they were in Soul Raver 1 - Undead, rotting almost zombie like, burrowed under ground to lie in wait. Had to eat corpses to keep them selves sustained. Slow and supposedly the weakest.

    What they could be like right now?

    Visual Themes: They worship death, cultist like. Use weapons like curved blades because they are not physically more advanced.

    Skull face paint, dark robes and leather outfits, human-like, but already balding, pale green skin color, skinny form.

    Gameplay: Jump underground and appear behind enemies. Regain health by eating corpses. Slow movement, fast melee. Can phase out to spectral realm for a second to dodge arrows and melee attacks.

    Pretty sure you guys have some cool ideas too. Lets hear yours!

    Btw this is what Melchiah looked like in SR1 http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...-Lake-Full.jpg

  2. #2
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    Hello,

    I do like the idea of the cultist aesthetics, but I also think we should start seeing some of their flesh missing, not too much, but something significant, like maybe around their eyes or such.

    As for the abilities I can get behind the burrowing underground, and even eating corpses to heal but it would be a slow processes.

    However I am personally against giving them phase shift. I know Melchiah could do it, but you never see his clan do it, so I doubt the so far non-(de)evolved fledglings can pull it off.

    Also I would much prefer we give one of the other unreleased clans Mist Form like in BO2 and Defiance, I know only Kain ever used it, and not sure if any of the clans were able to pull it off but a guy can dream.

    My suggestion would be that there should be a game mode, where four hunters are against swarms of Melchiah's brood, and the four hunters have to reach the end of a map to get away as they are far too outnumbered. Ocassionally a Tyrant will spawn to teach the puny humans a lesson...
    Wait a minute that sounds familiar

  3. #3
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    I have an idea that includes the phase and the burrowing. Perhaps the SR Melchiahim were not burrowing but employing some kind of primitive phase into pockets/tunnels under the ground. Maybe it's a less advanced form of phase than the spectral/material one employed by their patriarch, evolved as a compensating escape mechanism to avoid detection. Because it's less evolved, it involves some manner of physical disturbance that upsets the soil around.

    In terms of gameplay, perhaps the vampires use it to hide temporarily and launch ambushes. However they can only hide for a short period only as hiding involves resisting the physical weight upon them and in a sense phasing into it. After launching themselves upwards to attack a human foe they cause increased damage but also take more damage, as they've expended a lot of energy perorming the phase.

  4. #4
    The Melchiahim I see as lurkers, and ambushers. Very feeble, but very keen to skullduggery. I can very easily see a return of the burrow mechanic from SR1. Restrict the use to soft soily sections of the map. Problem is then you'd have to design every map with a scattering of soily bits which wouldn't make sense in some scenarios. I don't think they'd want to add an environmental mechanic like that since it would restrict either the Melchiahim's play, or put a new level design constraint. Could be wrong, could be something they already have planned so they wouldn't have to redesign anything.

    I like the idea of a corpse eating mechanic, the problem is I don't know how they would implement it into the game. If they left the corpses of the slain human players, it would quickly become a hog of resources (on top of that one feeder and his fifty identical corpses on the ground). It would be something that would set them apart from the other vampires, and could support a far squishier character type. After all, with the corpses you could munch on later, so you could address damage at nearly any time as opposed to the other clans.

  5. #5
    The burrow mechanic wouldn't require them to stand on soil. Keep in mind the Melchiahim would become weaker by SR1. So at this stage they could burrow into any ground and would not be significantly inferior to other clans.

    A drawback could be that they will start to lose health when they are underground. So they wont be able to camp forever and also would make sense as they start to deteriorate.

    The life cost to all their abilities could be one of their core mechanics? It would be fitting as they need to ghoul around to stay alive. Giving them a unique play style fitting to their lore.

  6. #6
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    This is shaping up to be a good thread!
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  7. #7
    There are a lot of ideas for the Melchiahim class in the meat shield thread as well. Would it be helpful to repost those here?

  8. #8
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    I think I've put these ideas out elsewhere, but I'll post them again here just for the sake of it.

    I think the burrow ability could be used as though it's a short range teleport ability. It could be used to close short gaps between themselves and human enemies or even appear behind someone to catch them off guard. I'm also a fan of using their burrow ability as a trap where they hide in the ground waiting for human prey. Though to balance this I would suggest visible disturbed soil where they are hiding and perhaps leaving them vulnerable to some attacks if spotted hiding underground.

    As far as their phase ability I think it could be used to phase through only the thinner walls. They could use this ability for both ambush and a quick retreat.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    I think I've put these ideas out elsewhere, but I'll post them again here just for the sake of it.

    I think the burrow ability could be used as though it's a short range teleport ability. It could be used to close short gaps between themselves and human enemies or even appear behind someone to catch them off guard. I'm also a fan of using their burrow ability as a trap where they hide in the ground waiting for human prey. Though to balance this I would suggest visible disturbed soil where they are hiding and perhaps leaving them vulnerable to some attacks if spotted hiding underground.

    As far as their phase ability I think it could be used to phase through only the thinner walls. They could use this ability for both ambush and a quick retreat.
    Burrow as a "gap closer" is definitely a great idea, as well as being able to burrow underground stay there, while your team mates lure humans around a corner and you pop up behind them and take them down from both sides. I think that would be a lot of fun.

    As for giving them phase shift, with the above 2 versions of burrow, I really think giving them phase shift as well would be too much.

    As I said in my above post, I think we should just leave phase shift out of it (I mean you never see Melchiah's brood use it anyway), and give your idea of "phase shift" to another clan as "mist form", again I know only Kain ever used it, but that doesn't necessarily mean no one else (of the clans) could also use it.

  10. #10
    Here's a way of using the phasing that I think could work (originally posted in the meat shield thread):

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    What if the Melchiahim had a partial phasing ability. Like allowing human weapons to pass through them or solidifying their hand inside of a humans chest? It wouldn't require a redesign of a level like phasing through parts of the environment would, but it could still allow for other interesting mechanics.

    What about leaving arrows sticking out of their bodies that would damage the attacker or maybe bones like the ones sticking out of Melchiah's back. (That last one might just have been concept art, but could still work.) Maybe they could be expelled at a crucial moment for radial damage.
    And here's a link to the thread, since it had a lot of other ideas for the Melchiahim as well:
    http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7698

  11. #11
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    Mist form would be awesome and you could use it as an escape as well - turn to mist and things can't hit you Phasing through things would be good but only if it works in the environment – if there are barriers etc.

    The only downside with the burrowing would be if people didn't come that way – it’d be like bored now – but if you could use it as an attack move and then appear under/near an enemy if they were within a certain radius – and either drag them down or attack unexpectedly – that would be cool

    EDIT: Sorry just saw your post Vampmaster – the phasing arrows etc through you would be pretty cool – or I know how about a “play dead” ability lol.

  12. #12
    Now this i like the whole play dead ability is perfect the humans have to be on edge then suddenly that Melchiah corpse you thought was dead behind you just snatching you from the group .... with that said i wonder if they can implement a grab ability like the reavers pounce the melchiah can grab the human and start draining the life force or just straight up strangling him this thread i really like keep the ideas coming guys!

  13. #13
    How about this:

    One of the recent blogs made use of Daniel Cabuco's description of the Razielim's role withing Kain's empire. If the same is done for the Melchiahim, that would put them as Scientists, Necromancers and Blood manipulators, right? So maybe something could be done using their blood or the way they absorb it from their enemies.

    I was talking about a flesh armor type ability some time ago, so how about if they could absorb their enemies blood through all the cuts and scars in their flesh. Allies running off with your dead victims was always a problem, but if the Melchiahim could absorb a small amount of blood from this other method, they'd have a unique advantage that the other classes don't.

  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by lucinvampire
    Mist form would be awesome and you could use it as an escape as well - turn to mist and things can't hit you Phasing through things would be good but only if it works in the environment – if there are barriers etc.

    The only downside with the burrowing would be if people didn't come that way – it’d be like bored now – but if you could use it as an attack move and then appear under/near an enemy if they were within a certain radius – and either drag them down or attack unexpectedly – that would be cool

    EDIT: Sorry just saw your post Vampmaster – the phasing arrows etc through you would be pretty cool – or I know how about a “play dead” ability lol.
    Mist form dashing would be cool, sort of like kain does during certain combos in Defiance.

    As for burrowing and waiting, well yeah if humans don't come to the area where you have burrowed then you simply get out. It's kind of like Metal Gear Online, where you could hide in a box, and some areas of the map were barren, so there's no point camping there.

    The point of burrowing is to ambush, so say you know a certain path is constantly used, once its all clear you burrow there and wait, or perhaps have a team mate lure humans to you. Like "oh no... these humans are gnna kill me... I best run away..." they give chase and boom ambush! Sort of like guerilla warfare

  15. #15
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    That type of mist would be sweet

    Yeah lol I get what you mean with the burrowing - it could be an epic ability if done right and utilised well... If you can live that long in the game I'd give you cookies... Would a Mel eat cookies

  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by lucinvampire
    That type of mist would be sweet

    Yeah lol I get what you mean with the burrowing - it could be an epic ability if done right and utilised well... If you can live that long in the game I'd give you cookies... Would a Mel eat cookies
    I personally think that kind of ability gives them a very distinct playstyle, and gives variety to the gameplay, making things more diverse.
    Think of it like certain predators in the wild, they dig holes and wait for their prey to approach, so the Melchiah brood would have a very different playstyle compared to the other clans, but it would still supplement the other clans, rather than be another rush in and flail wildly.

    As for living that long... Can I have stormtroopers from episode 4 be the human team? (so they miss every shot )
    The cookies must be bloodbaked chocolate chip cookies, but then Raziel would burst in "My blood cookie-thirst has been superceded by an even darker hunger." and just ruin the moment.
    Last edited by Tube_Reaver; 9th Dec 2013 at 21:10.

  17. #17
    http://i.imgur.com/iKqURIh.jpg

    I threw together a quick sketch of a Melchiah's Clan Vamps. It doesn't hold up to much critique as its a 20 min sloppy pen job, but should give a general idea.

    I can throw together another one as well if you are bothered to describe what you want it to look like.

  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by Badmojoman
    http://i.imgur.com/iKqURIh.jpg

    I threw together a quick sketch of a Melchiah's Clan Vamps. It doesn't hold up to much critique as its a 20 min sloppy pen job, but should give a general idea.

    I can throw together another one as well if you are bothered to describe what you want it to look like.
    Awesome sketch! The wound blood absorption thing sounds like an interesting idea. Perhaps they don't have well developed predatorial fangs like the other clans. They thus are faced with the choice of munching through bodies for blood like ghouls, or using subtler methods like the absorption one. Obviously by SR 1 this gift/technique is lost.

    I still think there's no need to separate burrowing/phasing - they could be part of the same ability. I mean, one doesn't have to take the moves that npcs had in previous Legacy of Kain games too literally after all. Indeed, if Raziel had the option to phase through partial barriers up/down/forward or back in a game, then there's nothing other than imagination stopping him doing it. If an iron gate could have been phased through, then a loose floor panel covered with dirt concealing a space beneath makes approximately the same sense. I am not sure anyone should get a pure mist form though, it seems quite a 'Kain' specific gift but this is just my own gut feeling and not based on anything more.

    I was thinking recently, on a slight tangent from the Melchiahim and their scientist role, that perhaps despite their obvious cruelty the Melchiahim are curious creaturs, amd notice some disadvantages to the vampire form, where humans have an advantage. Firstly, the humans desire to live, only being mortal, gives them a keener grasp of arts such as science and magic, a skill that the vampires lack by having no fear of threat or conflict (this is an idea I pinched from Warhammer fantasy. In some of the supporting fiction that was written for Vampire Counts a few years ago, the said vampires employed human necromancers because of their improved mastery of necromancy, built on a determination to stay alive that they lacked. The second thing that the Melchiahim notice is how useful the humans are as slaves, as well as cattle. Because they have quick dexterous hands, not claws (three claws or five) they make faster manual workers them vampires ever would, despite a lack of strength or quick reflexes. This comes with the danger of the humans making weapons to destroy the vampires. I think both of these ideas sprang from the notion that it is obvious that the vampires are becoming more bestial, or decrepid in the Melchiahim's case, which is some ways contributes to their downfall, intertwined with the land's damnation. The humans, despite living on a dying world, are not turned into beasts (see SR), though obviously are reduced to a pathetic prey species.
    Last edited by Sluagh; 9th Dec 2013 at 23:08.

  19. #19
    In fact they might as well have the blood shower ability itself. It would be the same range as the humans rain-of-arrows ability, do half the amount damage it does to enemies and refill about 30-50% of your health. Or maybe it would depend on what health the enemies had, a bit like the demi spell from Final Fantasy.

    That way it's not OP like Kain's lethal version from BO1 would be.

  20. #20
    So have the Melchiahim, be this Necromancer/ShadowWarlock caster archetype with AoE abilities and such? Blood Shower seems a bit colorful, but maybe have it rain ash/dark-mist/ink or something of that nature to keep dark visual aesthetic?

    Another idea is to have him be disease themed. Jumps out of the ground and waves of locust spin around him tearing the flesh from his enemies and returning it to him.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by Badmojoman
    So have the Melchiahim, be this Necromancer/ShadowWarlock caster archetype with AoE abilities and such? Blood Shower seems a bit colorful, but maybe have it rain ash/dark-mist/ink or something of that nature to keep dark visual aesthetic?

    Another idea is to have him be disease themed. Jumps out of the ground and waves of locust spin around him tearing the flesh from his enemies and returning it to him.
    Blood Shower was an ability Kain had in the very first game in this series, so there's no way it would out of place aesthetically.

    I definitely wasn't suggesting that any of the classes should be made to fit an archetype. Just because one ability reminds you of another franchise doesn't mean need to open a flood gate to make the character a clone of whatever that happened to be.

    All the characters in Nosgoth have two special abilities each and on top of their standard light and heavy attack. That's not really enough to consider any class as a caster archetype anyway.

    Also, there's no concept of mana in this game, which I presume that kind of setup would need.

  22. #22
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    Also, Badmojoman, Blood Shower wasn't an actual shower of blood falling from the sky like rain, but Kain willing blood from all enemies within a certain radius (or something like four to six enemies) at once to himself. Basically, enhanced TK feeding, which also he used in Defiance (it just wasn't called Blood Shower, but he was able to do the same in feeding from three to four enemies at once -- they just had to be beaten senseless first).

    He also used a spell called Blood Gout, which I think might be more appropriate for the Melchiahim, if we're going that route. Blood Gout allowed Kain to use his own blood as a projectile weapon, and then when struck, an enemy would be in the prime wavering state they go into when about to die and ready to feed from. As Kain said, it was a risk, but the reward was basically worth it.

    Being already falling apart as they were, the Melchiahim using their own blood, or even flesh, as weapons certainly would be in-keeping.

  23. #23
    I've mentioned the Melchiam with my own ideas in another thread, don't feel like digging it up now so I figured I'd just give the brief rundown here.

    1. The ability to quickly burrow through the ground could be interesting, but I don't like the idea of them using it to cover large distances. I would say it would function better as a more of a mobile trap, the Melchiam can slowly burrow through the ground and either leap out to pounce or for something really epic (in my opinion) have them pull the human in to the ground and devour them.

    2. Going with the idea above if they do pull the human down, I'm reminded of another ability Raziel mentioned, Melchiah's brood taking the flesh from their victims for themselves. So immediately after a kill, Melchiam should have the ability to channel for a few seconds to don a human disguise for a brief time. I.E. kill a Sentinel and give the Melchiam the ability to become that sentinel that just died. Creates an extra layer of drama if the humans don't know who might be a Melchiam in disguise, also that disguise should have an instant kill move, something like "hidden ambush: the melchiam leaps on a target, inflicting massive damage over X seconds. Can only be used from behind a target while in disguise, immediately drops disguise."

    3. The phasing ability should come in to play at least partially, I get that, my thought is the ability to pass through certain walls or the ability to shift in to the spectral realm and have it act like a stealth mechanic. Something like "Fade: Shift in to the spectral realm for 2-3 seconds, becoming invisible and immune to damage. Cannot attack while phasing."

    Combine that with the burrow trap idea and you have a ghostly assassin that can lurk underground and take the guise of it's victims and can shift to close the distance or get away.

    Now for weaknesses, one, definitely should be a visual clue on the ground that somewhat gives their position away, not too obvious but enough to catch someone not paying attention. Also, since they are the physically weakest the Melchiam should be able to take the fewest hits and their basic attacks should also be weak, their damage coming from their ambush and burst along with their tricks,

  24. #24
    Phasing through objects or environment would mean the levels need redesigning to contain objects and environment that can be phased through. That would take a lot of time and the spectral realm would be even more difficult, since the game would need to support environment morphing. I suppose a custom shader might give you the blurry blue-green effect, but it wouldn't look as good.

    @The_Hylden, the reason I suggested a powered down blood shower rather than blood gout is just because blood gout was a long attack which would go against the idea of asymmetrical gameplay, whereas the blood shower can just have a radius of a few metres. I suppose, since the abilities are customisable, you could always choose between a lethal single kill that could miss and non-lethal radial damage. I think that's a fair tradeoff.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 11th Dec 2013 at 11:16.

  25. #25
    According to the lore post, as well as a few other bits of data the Melchiahim appear to need more blood to survive than the other vampire clans maybe some abilities playing off that. The Melchiahim could be a good support class, that can store extra blood by gorging on corpses, in there bodies and then regurgitate it for other vampires to feed on.

    I also like the idea of them skinning there opponents. I remember in defiance raziel could alter the flesh of corpses he possessed to look like his own so maybe after peeling off the skin of a corpse they could partiially phase into the skin and it would contort and wrap around them to look like the character. it would be grizzly looking animation but it would be so cool.

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