Thread: First Day Closed-Alpha and I am happy

First Day Closed-Alpha and I am happy

  1. #1
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    Thumbs Up First Day Closed-Alpha and I am happy

    Thank you for giving me this opportunity to participate in the Alpha. I love this game. If you add anything else or do balancing, please make the game maintain this wonderful precise and quick feeling. It's something I miss from competitive FPSs like Unreal Tournament and Quake. In your FAQ, you stated it was similar to Unreal Championship but I think clarifying that vampire play feels kinda like playing L4D infected would help articulate what people might be getting into. I honestly am scared how this game will evolve because I am loving it as it is.

    I had some gameplay suggestions come to mind that I don't know if I really think are great ideas but possibilities if incorporated correctly. And sorry beforehand if you have heard these 80 jillion times already or have thought of them yourself and just are working down the list:

    1. I like that you guys are trying to distinguish humans from vampires in this game. I feel it would be appropriate if there were limits on certain things such as flight (since the Razielim are supposed to be frail without their leader) and dashing. I spent 2 minutes running around the map from a reaver who tried his damnedest to catch me but couldn't even touch me. I feel as a human you would get winded after some time (but then again you would get winded simply hauling heavy crossbows while doing combat rolls too.)

    2. Cooldown times need to possibly be adjusted (I am assuming balancing will be in Beta.) While it's fun to be superhumans, I feel some of these are just too powerful and with longer cooldown times will make players have to plan their attacks more.

    3. While there may be practical reasons why Vampires aren't allowed to climb certain structures, I feel like something needs to be done to make it seem more reasonable why they can't. The turret in Freeport is a good example of something that makes sense. There is a ceiling that only a sentinel could maneuver around to possibly reach that part of it(which by adding a more limited flight mechanic could take care of that issue). While I understand that you would have to explain to players why they can't climb the level perimeter and that endeavor would be nearly impossible to do while maintaining believability, to me anything within a level perimeter is part of the 'playground' and thusly should be able to be played on.

    4. I hate F2P games and leveling systems in a competitive game. So far, it's not painfully noticeable that new players are at a disadvantage from the veteran ones and unlockable abilities don't seem to be that much better than the stock ones. I get you need to encourage people to pay for all of your wonderfully hard work, but this has always steered me away from other massive F2P attempts, i.e., Hawken, so please don't do it here. I would much rather pay for well-designed and beautiful aesthetic modifications than risk destroying a beautiful game by segregating new players from the older ones.

    5. If you add more classes, please make sure they maintain the pacing and preciseness as the current ones do.

    I am impressed. LoK is one of my favorite video game series of all time. It holds a very special place in my heart and that's probably part of the reason I am so happy with this game. It's been far too long since Defiance. You guys are doing a good job and I am happy you were respectful enough to limit your involvement with developing Raziel or Kain. Please don't because you will only have to suffer from fan hate.

    I am worried about how you will be handling lore. Will it be subtle like the comments humans make about Kain being gone or Unreal Tournament-like map descriptions and design? Or will you have garish seasonal cutscenes/blog posts that propel some singular story that detaches the player from their experiences? I would prefer the former, but it's not my game to make. I completed the survey while typing this so I feel kind of spent on saying much more but the games pacing, precise controls, colorful characters and environments, and variety in classes makes this a very enjoyable experience. Here's to looking forward to Monday. I will have beer and servers will be up!

  2. #2
    and dashing. I spent 2 minutes running around the map from a reaver who tried his damnedest to catch me but couldn't even touch me. I feel as a human you would get winded after some time (but then again you would get winded simply hauling heavy crossbows while doing combat rolls too.)
    Dashing is an ability humans get to balance out the vamps being able to freely climb walls. As for flying, why restrict this? It only makes them better targets.
    4. I hate F2P games and leveling systems in a competitive game. So far, it's not painfully noticeable that new players are at a disadvantage from the veteran ones and unlockable abilities don't seem to be that much better than the stock ones. I get you need to encourage people to pay for all of your wonderfully hard work, but this has always steered me away from other massive F2P attempts, i.e., Hawken, so please don't do it here. I would much rather pay for well-designed and beautiful aesthetic modifications than risk destroying a beautiful game by segregating new players from the older ones.
    There is no leveling per se - the "levels" don't affect your strength or HP count, they are planned to give gold rewards in the future, as for the skills sold in the store, they are supposed to be trade-offs - you get something better, but give something away or get a new ability, but give away the one you have. Like you can get a grappling hook for a Scout that lets them get on some rooftops, but while you use that, you can't use the default AOE arrow wave ability. Or when you get a Jump Attack for Tyrant, you cannot use the Charge attack. That's actually a good system and all the skills can be bought without real money, only XP/Gold boosters and character skins cannot be bought with gold and require runestones to purchase.

  3. #3
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    For point 1. I suspect that the reaver wasn't very good. Just being able to climb over buildings allows you to chase humans around very easily let alone the pounce and the fact that reavers speed is the same if not faster than a scout.

    For 4. unlock the swiftbow on scout ^^, also a lot of the other gear works better in certain circumstances though the default loadouts are adequate most of the time. Oh and savage pounce.

    Increasing cds on humans would mean increasing cds on vampires to balance which would in turn give humans a lot longer to heal at health stations. A lot of the skills are fine as they are imo, I personally have issues with the aoe spam that humans can do but I think that's more to do with overall design than specifically cooldowns.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by ZangarftheWrassler
    Thank you for giving me this opportunity to participate in the Alpha. I love this game. If you add anything else or do balancing, please make the game maintain this wonderful precise and quick feeling. It's something I miss from competitive FPSs like Unreal Tournament and Quake. In your FAQ, you stated it was similar to Unreal Championship but I think clarifying that vampire play feels kinda like playing L4D infected would help articulate what people might be getting into. I honestly am scared how this game will evolve because I am loving it as it is.

    I had some gameplay suggestions come to mind that I don't know if I really think are great ideas but possibilities if incorporated correctly. And sorry beforehand if you have heard these 80 jillion times already or have thought of them yourself and just are working down the list:

    1. I like that you guys are trying to distinguish humans from vampires in this game. I feel it would be appropriate if there were limits on certain things such as flight (since the Razielim are supposed to be frail without their leader) and dashing. I spent 2 minutes running around the map from a reaver who tried his damnedest to catch me but couldn't even touch me. I feel as a human you would get winded after some time (but then again you would get winded simply hauling heavy crossbows while doing combat rolls too.)

    I don't have a problem with unlimited flight. It's part of that classes appeal. If you remove some of the flight he just is not so appealing anymore. I disagree here on the dashing. I think that as the other poster said this is really a way to balance the fact that Vamps can climb which gives them a big advantage. We have to be very careful with changing the game TOO much. IMO in MMO's this is what ruins them. This is not a MMO. Let us NOT change the basics of the game without a very very good reason. Also like Unreal Tournament (I bring it up all the time because to me it's the holy grail of fps games) the weapons were never tweaked. They were balanced and solid day 1. This let people just focus on skilling up. This is what I want to see here. Let's balance things yes.. but once it's there if this game goes the route of patches to tweak and nerf skills frequently I will not play it. It's just that simple. So while dashing is extremely powerful, and I've done exactly what you have mentioned, I don't feel it's too powerful. Keep in mind this is a team game. In your scenario your enemy could have easily finished you off with good communication to his teammates. A setinel could fly in grab you and drop you right in front of that Reaver. Or a tyrant could drop in front of you and use his pound/stun effect. So while you may feel that dash is over powered please keep in mind this is a team game. I don't think we want to go the route of trying to balance it purely for 1v1. Each class has advantages and disadvantages. The reaver shouldn't be chasing you. That is not his play style. He is a sneak attack stalker who can decimate people if their head is not on a swivel.

    2. Cooldown times need to possibly be adjusted (I am assuming balancing will be in Beta.) While it's fun to be superhumans, I feel some of these are just too powerful and with longer cooldown times will make players have to plan their attacks more.

    I slightly agree. I think it will make the game, perhaps, less fun. Again this is not a MMO. I feel like you are an MMO player when you discuss CD's. I think what makes FPS games appealing is the frentic, fast paced action. You start mucking with CD times and you will have an impact on that aspect. Which I personally would not like.

    3. While there may be practical reasons why Vampires aren't allowed to climb certain structures, I feel like something needs to be done to make it seem more reasonable why they can't. The turret in Freeport is a good example of something that makes sense. There is a ceiling that only a sentinel could maneuver around to possibly reach that part of it(which by adding a more limited flight mechanic could take care of that issue). While I understand that you would have to explain to players why they can't climb the level perimeter and that endeavor would be nearly impossible to do while maintaining believability, to me anything within a level perimeter is part of the 'playground' and thusly should be able to be played on.

    Agreed.

    4. I hate F2P games and leveling systems in a competitive game. So far, it's not painfully noticeable that new players are at a disadvantage from the veteran ones and unlockable abilities don't seem to be that much better than the stock ones. I get you need to encourage people to pay for all of your wonderfully hard work, but this has always steered me away from other massive F2P attempts, i.e., Hawken, so please don't do it here. I would much rather pay for well-designed and beautiful aesthetic modifications than risk destroying a beautiful game by segregating new players from the older ones.

    Agreed

    5. If you add more classes, please make sure they maintain the pacing and preciseness as the current ones do.

    Definitely agree

    I am impressed. LoK is one of my favorite video game series of all time. It holds a very special place in my heart and that's probably part of the reason I am so happy with this game. It's been far too long since Defiance. You guys are doing a good job and I am happy you were respectful enough to limit your involvement with developing Raziel or Kain. Please don't because you will only have to suffer from fan hate.

    I am worried about how you will be handling lore. Will it be subtle like the comments humans make about Kain being gone or Unreal Tournament-like map descriptions and design? Or will you have garish seasonal cutscenes/blog posts that propel some singular story that detaches the player from their experiences? I would prefer the former, but it's not my game to make. I completed the survey while typing this so I feel kind of spent on saying much more but the games pacing, precise controls, colorful characters and environments, and variety in classes makes this a very enjoyable experience. Here's to looking forward to Monday. I will have beer and servers will be up!
    Agree also that this game is very fun to play. I cannot say enough though about the CD times. We shouldn't be too eager to change what is already working quite well. I already see a lot of strategy here so if we do tweak CD times lets make sure we get plenty of feedback on any changes such as this. I feel we want to get things right and then leave them ALONE. I don't want to see the game constantly getting changed in regards to dps output and cd's and gameplay mechanics. Get it right leave it alone and focus on Game Modes, Maps, and possible new characters.

    Great feedback here!

  5. #5
    The cooldown times are in the range they are for two primary reasons:

    1. A few studies have shown that most people in general have trouble keeping track of a "cooldown" longer than 30 seconds, or tend to hoard them. If you've played World of Warcraft or a similar MMO think about the friction between using a 1 minute CD and a 20 second one. That friction can provide some interesting player choice, but typically it creates tough balancing situations where 60+ second CDs need to feel super powerful and, conversely, feel "cheap" to the enemy. It sucks to die to the guy who blew his 2 minute cooldown on you and is then useless for 120 seconds.

    2. The current longest cooldowns (25-30s) tend to correspond to the delay between group encounters, typically not refreshing in time to use twice in a single fight but up again for the next engagement. We feel this works out well.

  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by Shadyhaxx
    Agree also that this game is very fun to play. I cannot say enough though about the CD times. We shouldn't be too eager to change what is already working quite well. I already see a lot of strategy here so if we do tweak CD times lets make sure we get plenty of feedback on any changes such as this. I feel we want to get things right and then leave them ALONE. I don't want to see the game constantly getting changed in regards to dps output and cd's and gameplay mechanics. Get it right leave it alone and focus on Game Modes, Maps, and possible new characters.
    I appreciate you input, Shady. I am actually not an MMO player but have played them in the past so I use the lingo that feels most appropriate. I am not hard set on wanting any of these changes but they were all initial thoughts that I actually had similar arguments against in my head. I think the game very much is awesome as is.

    With regards to sentinel's flight, I don't want to remove it at all for the obvious uniqueness it creates for the class. I just naturally initially anticipated a meter for it because of other games where exhausting meters were included. Due to the fact that it isn't a strategical advantage to flying around endlessly (more of a disadvantage if you ask me) so it doesn't NEED limiting but would encourage players to be more thoughtful of their actions. I think my biggest concern would be any changes that might affect the pacing of the game which is FAST FAST FAST (which I love)! So I get that cooldown times need to be short but again as another INITIAL impression, it had me thinking slightly longer times would make player strategic pushes less spammy and more strategic. Again, however, I am fine either way.

    Originally Posted by Psyonix_Corey
    The cooldown times are in the range they are for two primary reasons:

    1. A few studies have shown that most people in general have trouble keeping track of a "cooldown" longer than 30 seconds, or tend to hoard them. If you've played World of Warcraft or a similar MMO think about the friction between using a 1 minute CD and a 20 second one. That friction can provide some interesting player choice, but typically it creates tough balancing situations where 60+ second CDs need to feel super powerful and, conversely, feel "cheap" to the enemy. It sucks to die to the guy who blew his 2 minute cooldown on you and is then useless for 120 seconds.

    2. The current longest cooldowns (25-30s) tend to correspond to the delay between group encounters, typically not refreshing in time to use twice in a single fight but up again for the next engagement. We feel this works out well.
    That all seems to make sense and I do not question Psyonix's decision to set the cooldowns to what they are now. I am assuming all balancing will come in due time once the main game is complete so we may see minor adjustments in various numerical values such as damage and cooldown times. I definitely would hate to see a 2min cooldown and I didn't even realize there was a 30 second cooldown... So maybe those 90 seconds in between would feel too long on either end of the spectrum.
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  7. #7
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    I shamefully admit I was the reaver in question, I was trying to line him up for a leap attack... and would have lost him if I tried to climb up the building...

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by ZangarftheWrassler
    I appreciate you input, Shady. I am actually not an MMO player but have played them in the past so I use the lingo that feels most appropriate. I am not hard set on wanting any of these changes but they were all initial thoughts that I actually had similar arguments against in my head. I think the game very much is awesome as is.

    Glad you are not a MMO player. Like FPS doug said.. MMO's are like a disease! After too many MMO's his friend just sprayed and pray'd

    With regards to sentinel's flight, I don't want to remove it at all for the obvious uniqueness it creates for the class. I just naturally initially anticipated a meter for it because of other games where exhausting meters were included. Due to the fact that it isn't a strategical advantage to flying around endlessly (more of a disadvantage if you ask me) so it doesn't NEED limiting but would encourage players to be more thoughtful of their actions. I think my biggest concern would be any changes that might affect the pacing of the game which is FAST FAST FAST (which I love)! So I get that cooldown times need to be short but again as another INITIAL impression, it had me thinking slightly longer times would make player strategic pushes less spammy and more strategic. Again, however, I am fine either way.


    I think exhaustion meters could work but I would like to leave it as is for a while until everyone gets a lot of gameplay in. Then evaluate it some more. Just not sure yet if that is needed.



    That all seems to make sense and I do not question Psyonix's decision to set the cooldowns to what they are now. I am assuming all balancing will come in due time once the main game is complete so we may see minor adjustments in various numerical values such as damage and cooldown times. I definitely would hate to see a 2min cooldown and I didn't even realize there was a 30 second cooldown... So maybe those 90 seconds in between would feel too long on either end of the spectrum.
    I like the CD's how they are currently as it keeps the game fast paced and fun.

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