Thread: The Tyrant Art in the Turelim Blog Post

The Tyrant Art in the Turelim Blog Post

  1. #51
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    By saying that Turel had the loudest voice, all we meant to imply was that he was the most eager to take up a position of leadership on the issue. All the Clans have their motivations to attack the Razielim - some far more spiteful than others (and we're very much looking forward to revealing all the various different motivations) - and are more or less equally eager to do so, however for Turel he feels it's his duty as heir apparent.

    Turel is following what he believes what be his lord and master's wishes following Kain's disappearance in the Chronoplast. Turel considers what he thinks to be finishing off his masters work to be a noble duty, and since "Kain [was] deified", for Clan Turelim this perceived honourable task takes on holy connotations. Additionally, Turel is all about claiming dominance and by taking a leading position on the matter of the final solution to the Razileim problem, his intention is to establish a commanding position over the other Vampire Clans and, by extension, Nosgoth.
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  2. #52
    Originally Posted by Paradoks_db
    Which is why they should avoid conflict when both humans and other clans are occupied with each other. They both have more urgent concerns than Razielim.
    Unless I'm mistaken, the Razielim were a very sophisticated and intelligent bunch no? It's entirely likely that the other clans remain ignorant to the exact number of Razielim after the purge, so perhaps they're using this as a ruse to bolster their clan. If their remaining number is a mystery, they don't have to provide their full support within the war and can work behind the scenes preparing themselves for humanity's eventual defeat...and then enact vengeance with newly bolstered forces.

    Originally Posted by Gryregaest
    I think the point is that the Razielim have as much to lose from a human uprising as anyone else in the empire. Alliances and conflicts between vampires are nothing new, even if the conflict waged against them is particularly extreme. The future of relations with the other clans does not look good, but still contains a fair amount of uncertainty. Whereas the future relations with humans are pretty damn certain; if they aren't dominated, they will do everything in their power to destroy every last vampire.

    I agree that Turel's feelings, positive or negative, towards Raziel may not extend to the Razielim as a whole. These are vampires we're talking about here - they murder sentient beings when they feed. So it's not a stretch to assume that they do not put a great deal of value on the lives of individuals they consider to be beneath them, and this may well extend to lesser vampires. Even Raziel, though he was troubled by the loss of his own clan, and showed some remorse at the killing of his brothers, did not appear to have any particularly strong feelings about dispatching countless individuals of other clans.

    I do like the design in the blog post, I look forward to posts about the other clans and humans.
    Agreed,

    Raziel and his brothers don't seem to place much value upon vampires whom they, themselves, haven't sired or at least part of their lineage. This tends to follow suit with stereotypical vampire lore.

    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    Snip
    I always play nice.

    With that said, I agree with much of what you have stated. I can easily see the Razielim having a sense of pride towards humanity believing that they could dare pose a threat to the vampiric race. I do not, however, believe that would be their guiding force behind the ordeal and more so a ruse presented as an excuse for why they have chosen to give into the demand to band with the clans who have been exterminating them.

    While they may use this as an explanation for their compliance and present the face of deception while in battle...I'd believe it all a cleverly orchestrated plan to bolster their brood so that when humanity ultimately fell, they would come out on top. I think it's far more likely that they have been staving off their ravenous hunger and harvesting humans not to feed upon, but to breed within those remote locations you've spoken of. Essentially, building a Razielim utopia in which the other clans couldn't reach and wait for a day when their forces are strong enough to soar across the skies and leave nothing in their wake.

    We know they could accomplish this, and with the clans incapable of being sure as to just how many still exist...this would be easy to accomplish amongst such a vast war. I can easily see them doing something like this, cleverly stealing away human cattle to place upon an elevated mountain which no human could descend without death...forcing them to breed and bolster both their numbers and provide an endless source of sustenance. With this process, they would ultimately come out on top, especially in a world dying due to vampiric overpopulation within the future after the resulting war.

    They would have prime cattle to feed upon, bolster and regulate their forces, grow strong off of...and then destroy the other clans when they're weak and starving.

    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    Snip
    I've got an idea that I think will support everything and provide an adequate explanation that everyone can agree with.

    Zephon instigated the genocide by manipulating Turel into believing it was the thing he had to do...be it to continue along the path of what Kain desired or to assert his new found position as king. All of this is, of course, a cleverly orchestrated plot to assert his own dominance after he manipulates Turel into destroying the entire Razielim clan and weakening the rest.

    We might come to find that Zephon is ultimately the reason that Dumah falls to the humans. Either way, this all follows suit with Zephon's personality AND can be easily worked into a reason as to why Turel would spearhead this genocide by giving him further incentive to do so.

    All he needs is a little push to finish what his "father" started...and Zephon may have been that push.

    Originally Posted by Monkeythumbz
    We agree. Don't forget this from the previous blog:

    "With the Razielim now bereft of a leader, the other Clans fell upon their territory – some wanting to seek glory by mirroring their Emperor’s actions, others to expand their influence by seizing precious land and resources, and a few simply to settle pernicious old scores. "

    Turel is the bit in bold. Who do you think the other descriptions relate to?
    I agree with this, but make Zephon the whispering voice in Turel's ear that finalized his decision. There's a chance that Turel possessed some hesitation towards the eradication of the Razielim. They were a broken clan who's sire was destroyed for reasons that none of them truly understood beyond it being Kain's will.

    It's possible that Turel's first choice was to take the Razielim under his metaphorical wing as a means to atone for any guilt he potentially harbored over tossing his brother into the abyss, or simply out of respect for them being so powerful. It's very likely that the confused, broken, and fearful Razielim would accepted this act of mercy simply to avoid eradication...even if they would have ultimately sought out revenge within the future. However, this would have made Turel's clan far more powerful through the incorporation of the Razielim...unstoppable.

    Zephon can't have that, now can he? Not if he's to take up the mantle of king after Kain's disappearance. We all know that Zephon is the master manipulator who works in the shadows, the mentality of a spider who seeks the manipulation of his prey before the kill. What better way than to use Turel's pride and honor against him?

    "You have to eradicate them, if you expect the other clans to accept your strength brother."
    "It's what Kain would have wanted, we are honor bound to carry out his will."
    "One day they will turn on you, take their vengeance upon us all for what was done to Raziel."

    I'm paraphrasing of course, but Zephon would use those types of manipulations in order to push Turel into committing the genocide against the Razielim. Now he's effectively ensured the complete annihilation of the most significant threat (the Razielim) and weakened the other (the Turelim). This leaves only the Dumahim, Rahabim, and Melchahim.

    If it's implemented that Zephon is responsible for Dumah's defeat at the hands of the humans...then there's another threat taken down through his manipulations, ensuring the death of the sire and chaos amongst that particular clan. Now we're left with only the Rahabim and Melchahim.

    The Rahabim are slowly becoming a completely aquatic clan and likely to not dispute Zephon's dominion of the surface world and the Melchahim are pitiful at best...easily dispatched and their sire little more than a self loathing recluse too busy stitching himself new skins to worry about taking over.

    Hail to the king baby.

    I think this fits perfectly, as it places blame upon the clan who's most likely to have carried out the act due to their own strength...but gives light to the fact that the true blame goes to the one who's most likely to have instigated the genocide.
    Last edited by TenebraeAeterna; 19th Oct 2013 at 15:20.

  3. #53
    I hit the character limit by including those quotes, sorry about the snips folks.

  4. #54
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    We share incredibly similar views on Zephon, TenebraeAeterna, however Zephon has his own inimical reasons to wipe out the Razielim, which we'll be revealing in a future update.

    Turel, meanwhile, is no reluctant tyrant and would welcome the opportunity for a demonstration of power with little encouragement, especially if in his arrogance he thought he would only ever come out on top.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    The three reasons for Turel wanting the Razielim dead were firstly that he was "so dutiful and righteous, even as a vampire", secondly that he would have wanted the glory and the spoils, and thirdly, that Raziel wasn't around anymore to miss them.

    Actually, a fourth reason could be that they were a rogue faction and a possible threat to the empire, at least at the beginning before all the clans began their infighting.
    Precisely.

    As for Dumah, and all that befalls him… that's a story for another time.
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  5. #55
    Originally Posted by Monkeythumbz
    We share incredibly similar views on Zephon, TenebraeAeterna, however Zephon has his own inimical reasons to wipe out the Razielim, which we'll be revealing in a future update.

    Turel, meanwhile, is no reluctant tyrant and would welcome the opportunity for a demonstration of power with little encouragement, especially if in his arrogance he thought he would only ever come out on top.


    Precisely.

    As for Dumah, and all that befalls him… that's a story for another time.
    The Zephonim are personal favorite due to their association with spiders and the manipulative nature of their sire. Truth be told, while I adored Zephon, his clan's appearance was far more preferable in my eyes. I truly hope that you guys implement the Zephonim as an assassin like class with superior climbing capabilities and a DOT melee attack...

    Turn them into that sadistic assassin-like class, a terror agent.

  6. #56
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    Originally Posted by Paradoks_db
    *snip*
    For all we know in Kain's absence Turel could willing to rule over all vampires, even the Razielim as their lord after a war with humans. Especially if he is convinced the virtually leaderless (officially) Razielim are a powerful enough tool and could help him establish his power base after a war with the humans because he would likely then move onto reasserting his power over the other clans (or at least try to). There's arguably good reason to keep the Razielim around under his control.

    The humans on the other hand are trying to kill all vampires. I find it highly unlikely that they would entertain allying with the Razielim. The Sarafan example you gave is from BO2 where they were as equally oppressive to humans and secretly controlled by Hylden. That is not a comparable situation.
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  7. #57
    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    For all we know in Kain's absence Turel could willing to rule over all vampires, even the Razielim as their lord after a war with humans. Especially if he is convinced the virtually leaderless (officially) Razielim are a powerful enough tool and could help him establish his power base after a war with the humans because he would likely then move onto reasserting his power over the other clans (or at least try to). There's arguably good reason to keep the Razielim around under his control.
    I agree with you,

    This is likely the case, but it's also extremely likely that the Razielim would have ultimately sought vengeance against the clans...and Zephon would be quick to remind him of this. Ultimately, no matter how you look at it, Turel initiating the genocide makes sense...but I believe it's a much stronger story if Zephon was behind the wheel, so to speak.

  8. #58
    Originally Posted by Monkeythumbz
    We share incredibly similar views on Zephon, TenebraeAeterna, however Zephon has his own inimical reasons to wipe out the Razielim, which we'll be revealing in a future update.

    Turel, meanwhile, is no reluctant tyrant and would welcome the opportunity for a demonstration of power with little encouragement, especially if in his arrogance he thought he would only ever come out on top.


    Precisely.

    As for Dumah, and all that befalls him… that's a story for another time.
    I think Dumah would be the one most eager to challenge Turel's claim to the throne, since he's the best warrior and next in line after him. He'd be too concerned with fighting the Turelim to properly deal with the humans. Zephon would be playing everyone against each other, waiting to see who came out on top. The Rahabim would be able to focus all their attention on the humans, since no other clan would want territory they couldn't survive in and the Melchiahim would just be scavenging the human corpses from the war while waiting for Kain to come back.

  9. #59
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    Also forgot Paradoks Raziel SR1 example. Raziel was no longer a vampire and not identifiable as one. I doubt it would be as easy to convince a vampire hunter you're benevolent (especially when you're likely not to be) if you're a vampire.
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  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    Again, let me make good and clear, I'm emphatically NOT at all suggesting Turel has no reason to want the Razielim dead, I'm just saying he does not seem the likely candidate for the person who wants the Razielim dead more than anybody else in the entire world. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.
    True, but he did clearly wanna be in charge as you said before, and this crusade was probably the best way he saw to take the reins. Being louder than everyone else tends to be the way to take control, regardless of how much he really cared about wiping out the Razielim.

  11. #61
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    Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna
    I agree with you,

    This is likely the case, but it's also extremely likely that the Razielim would have ultimately sought vengeance against the clans...and Zephon would be quick to remind him of this. Ultimately, no matter how you look at it, Turel initiating the genocide makes sense...but I believe it's a much stronger story if Zephon was behind the wheel, so to speak.
    Can't say I really see it that way. The Razielim may be powerful and useful to the clans, but they would likely still be in a weakened state after being persecuted by other clans and then allying with them in a human vs vampire war and possibly even just grateful to be back in the clan society (though whether they'd be treated as pariah's without Raziel is yet to be seen). I doubt they'd have the capabilities to overthrow Turel, especially with the other clans to contend with in that scenario. As far as Zephon goes we've yet to see what his role exactly is so I'd maybe refrain from inferring too much about him with no real evidence.
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  12. #62
    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    Can't say I really see it that way. The Razielim may be powerful and useful to the clans, but they would likely still be in a weakened state after being persecuted by other clans and then allying with them in a human vs vampire war and possibly even just grateful to be back in the clan society (though whether they'd be treated as pariah's without Raziel is yet to be seen). I doubt they'd have the capabilities to overthrow Turel, especially with the other clans to contend with in that scenario. As far as Zephon goes we've yet to see what his role exactly is so I'd maybe refrain from inferring too much about him with no real evidence.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm more than sure that the Razielim would submit themselves to Turel were he to extend such an offer. I just don't believe that their obedience would be anything but a clever ruse to ensure their safety until the day that they can take vengeance.

    From the wiki:

    In Kain's empire prior to their devolution, the Razielim were noted to have taken roles described as: "Artisans, Philosophers, Spellbinders, Tacticians..., Blood Bankers, and manipulators." and it was further elaborated that the "Razielim would use their spellcraft to spy on other clans, and manipulate them with a wry hand".[21][22]
    It would be extremely difficult for Turel to ensure that this wouldn't happen. It's obvious that they're an extremely intelligent clan, and with the way that vampirism is transmitted...it wouldn't be difficult for them to amass their forces in secret. Ultimately, Turel would be relying upon the fear and appreciation of a stronger clan to obey him after he had killed their sire. We know that the vampires don't seem to possess much loyalty amongst one another beyond their own "family" ties...so appreciation for sparing them after he had tossed their father into the Abyss is highly unlikely. Fear is very likely, but a thirst for vengence coupled with an intelligent clan would likely result in the situation I express above...the Razielim working in secret to regain the power that they had lost and then strike back.

    It's actually the reason I feel they joined the war, using the ruse of fear, starvation, and disgust with the human defiance as a mask to wear as they work towards that ultimate goal. It would be easy for them to steal away humans to some secret mountain top sanctuary so that they can use them as a breeding stock of renewable sustenance and bodies to rejuvenate the weakened clan while the chaos of the war enshrouds these activities. Given an intelligent plan, enough human stock, and time...they become the dominant clan again after the war, and can decimate the others.

    I'm getting a little off subject though.

    Turel might actually believe that the Razielim would obey him out of fear and admiration towards sparing them, sheltering them, taking them under his metaphorical wing. Zephon wouldn't though, and he would sew the seeds of doubt into Turel's mind even if he DID believe that the Razielim would obey simply because the combined might of those two clans would challenge his own reign. It's not only likely that the Razielim would take revenge, it's the most likely outcome given an extended timeline...and that's all Zephon needs to put into Turel's mind to get the job done.

    That and it's pretty obvious that the Razielim would be treated as second citizens at the very least...if not worthless sacks of flesh to be kicked around at anyone's whim above only humans themselves.

  13. #63
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    They could possibly have a hidden agenda themselves (and probably lots of reasons to do so), but I don't see them in any real position to enact on any such plan until a long time after the war with the humans. It's quite possible that their ultimate fate fell upon them before they could have any chance to see it through given the situation by the time Raziel awakes in SR1.

    Though personally I hope that their ultimate fate that was yet to be revealed in the main games doesn't simply turn out to be a chronicling of their demise. Even if it were just a handful of survivors I'd like to see them revisited in a story driven LoK.
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  14. #64
    Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna
    Don't get me wrong, I'm more than sure that the Razielim would submit themselves to Turel were he to extend such an offer. I just don't believe that their obedience would be anything but a clever ruse to ensure their safety until the day that they can take vengeance.
    LOL. That's the same stratagy Raziel used to escape from squiddy! "Submission is not always what it seems"

    Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna
    It's actually the reason I feel they joined the war, using the ruse of fear, starvation, and disgust with the human defiance as a mask to wear as they work towards that ultimate goal. It would be easy for them to steal away humans to some secret mountain top sanctuary so that they can use them as a breeding stock of renewable sustenance and bodies to rejuvenate the weakened clan while the chaos of the war enshrouds these activities.
    You mean like Kain's mountain retreat? I was hoping we'd get to see that place.

  15. #65
    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    They could possibly have a hidden agenda themselves (and probably lots of reasons to do so), but I don't see them in any real position to enact on any such plan until a long time after the war with the humans. It's quite possible that their ultimate fate fell upon them before they could have any chance to see it through given the situation by the time Raziel awakes in SR1.

    Though personally I hope that their ultimate fate that was yet to be revealed in the main games doesn't simply turn out to be a chronicling of their demise. Even if it were just a handful of survivors I'd like to see them revisited in a story driven LoK.
    I don't think that it would take as long as you believe, especially when they have such a chaotic war to enshroud their potential schemes. We know that vampires can be made from corpses; Kain and his children often preforming this method of siring. Unless the Razielim have been brought to the brink of extinction, where there's only a dozen or so left, it wouldn't be difficult for them to rejuvenate their clan during an ordeal where bodies are going to be of great abundance.

    As I had previously expressed, were they to be stealing away humans (both living and dead) throughout the chaos and taking them to some remote location amongst the mountains...the other clans are going to be hard pressed to discover this little plot before it's too late. Think of it like a virus, one becomes two which become four which becomes eight and within a week you got yourself thousands of Razielim fledglings. It might take quite some time in a mortal's understanding of such, but to an immortal...they may be at enough strength by the end of the war if they were to play their cards right.

    Even if they're not, they could just as easily escape near the end of the war when the chaos has reached its peak before the other clans knew what became of them...and continue the plot undisturbed with their renewable stock of human slaves. Perhaps they would even treat these humans well, feeding off them yet never killing with the promise of immortality rather than death. They could easily start a vampire cult..."sparing" these humans the vicious slaughter their brethren would surely bestow.

    They're clever, and out of all the clans I would assume that they would have the best possible plan for their future even without their sire.

    Edit:

    Also, I'm not saying that they would treat the humans well...just that it's a possible course of action to ensure human compliance. They could treat them like cattle and rule with an iron fist over this livestock too, using psychological torture to keep them in check.

    "You want to defy us, how well can you fly?"

    I'm just saying that establishing this type of little sanctuary wouldn't be difficult no matter how they treated the humans they stole away.
    Last edited by TenebraeAeterna; 19th Oct 2013 at 19:37.

  16. #66
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    Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna
    They're clever, and out of all the clans I would assume that they would have the best possible plan for their future even without their sire.
    Yet there are no trace of them after 500 years. Pro-skills in hiding? Or just extinct?

  17. #67
    Originally Posted by Derakus
    Yet there are no trace of them after 500 years. Pro-skills in hiding? Or just extinct?
    If you had a sanctuary high up within the mountains and a perpetual source of humans to feed upon, why would you bother returning to the world below unless you were ready to exterminate the remaining clans? Let them weaken through starvation while you grow fat and healthy upon the fruits of your labor, and then exterminate them like vermin.

    We may not see them because they may have not chosen to set their foot down upon the other clans just yet. Like I said before, the mind of a mortal wouldn't be the same as an immortal...patience is a virtue developed through the wisdom of age. If you had all the time in the world, why risk a hasty attack when you can ensure victory?

  18. #68
    I don't mind Turel being the one going after the Razielim. He's the dutiful son, if Kain declared them enemy, then that should be enough. Especially since as SR1's background noted, they have precious little else to pre-occupy themselves with. And I'm not sure if Raziel is that great a character witness. Yeah he had much better opinion of Turel then Zephon or others but think of how he harps on about vampire nobility in SR1 or Sarafan goodness in SR2 while demonising Kain then turning around and demonising the Sarafan after going after Janos. Raziel is a judgy little wraith. Turel and Raziel were probably just two big old bullies together and Raziel looks back at those days with rosetinted glasses.
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  19. #69
    Originally Posted by Denam_Pavel
    I don't mind Turel being the one going after the Razielim. He's the dutiful son, if Kain declared them enemy, then that should be enough. Especially since as SR1's background noted, they have precious little else to pre-occupy themselves with. And I'm not sure if Raziel is that great a character witness. Yeah he had much better opinion of Turel then Zephon or others but think of how he harps on about vampire nobility in SR1 or Sarafan goodness in SR2 while demonising Kain then turning around and demonising the Sarafan after going after Janos. Raziel is a judgy little wraith. Turel and Raziel were probably just two big old bullies together and Raziel looks back at those days with rosetinted glasses.
    I can accept that Turel is simply a dutiful son enacting what his sire wished, and even simply a tyrant seeking power. I just think that incorporating Zephon as the whispering instigator towards these events forms a more solid foundation. My reasoning for this is pretty simple, I just don't believe that Turel is all that intelligent...

    What I mean to say is that I believe he would have been prideful enough to spare the Razielim and seek to use them as a tool to his own ends, using his own clan and the Razielim to fully assert dominance over the other clans. He's the current successor to Kain, who would dare challenge his position, who would dare dispute his position in line for the crown? Surely even the Razielim would understand that what had transpired was simply Kain's will.

    This is what I believe Turel would think, and why I feel he would be potentially inclined to try incorporating the Razielim without Zephon's manipulative whispers playing out within his ear. Kain has left leaving the crown to him, thus he no longer has to follow his father's whim when it comes to any potential desire to eradicate the Razielim. There's no forsaking honor when you have inherited the crown and decide another option more prudent over the former kings potential decision. You have the right to show "mercy" and the right to take any course you so choose...such is what it means to be king.

    This, of course, doesn't mean that I couldn't accept Turel deciding to eradicate the Razielim without Zephon's influential advice...just that I feel it's a far better foundation that makes sense for everyone involved no matter how you look at it. In my personal opinion, it's the best possible course for them to take...but not the only one. What's implied to be their path still works perfectly fine...I just don't see it as the most likely course.

    Others apparently don't either...but I can see the points of both sides, I think.

    Also, I want to edit my statement regarding Turel not being intelligent. What I mean to say is that I don't believe Turel to be wise in understand the repercussions of his actions down the road, capable of predicting the potential disasters he might cause himself through these actions like taking the Razielim under his wing. I think he's likely an extremely intelligent military tactician who knows how to work the battlefield...but I think he's a bit deluded into thinking that people will fall in line simply through a display of power, his birthright, so on and so forth. This is why I think Zephon's influence would provide a stronger foundation by setting those seeds of doubt into his mind, being a far more intelligent individual...Zephon would be quick to tell him otherwise because it suits Zephon's own desires. It's also very true...even if it's ultimately a word of advice not given to actually save Turel.
    Last edited by TenebraeAeterna; 20th Oct 2013 at 03:04.

  20. #70
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    Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna
    If you had a sanctuary high up within the mountains and a perpetual source of humans to feed upon, why would you bother returning to the world below unless you were ready to exterminate the remaining clans? Let them weaken through starvation while you grow fat and healthy upon the fruits of your labor, and then exterminate them like vermin.

    We may not see them because they may have not chosen to set their foot down upon the other clans just yet. Like I said before, the mind of a mortal wouldn't be the same as an immortal...patience is a virtue developed through the wisdom of age. If you had all the time in the world, why risk a hasty attack when you can ensure victory?
    Because Raziel returned and solved their problems by beheading other clans? Why wont Razielims show up at some stage even just out of curiosity to chek if someone singlehandedly waging war vs all other clans and winning?

    Also - how funny you speak about "mind of immortal", when its clear that Raziel is not smart and prone to impulsivness (and he is 1000 years old as vampire) blindly searching for revenge, killing everything that stands between him and Kain for most part of his games.

    As for lesser vampires created by leutenants- they dont look so intelligent either, they look more like feral creatures for me with some glimpses of intelligence.

    My guess - Razielims are dead for good, left without Raziel they didnt survive through 500 years.
    Last edited by Derakus; 20th Oct 2013 at 04:39.

  21. #71
    Originally Posted by Derakus
    Because Raziel returned and solved their problems by beheading other clans? Why wont Razielims show up at some stage even just out of curiosity to chek if someone singlehandedly waging war vs all other clans and winning?

    My guess - Razielims are dead for good, left without Raziel they didnt survive through 500 years.
    Tell me how often you leave your own town...

    Humanity has been defeated, Kain mysteriously vanished, Raziel dead; who could possibly pose any threat to the clans besides the Razielim themselves...well, if they exist within the manner I expressed, of course? So, why keep an eye upon the clans and risk revealing yourself when you can be fairly assured of what's transpiring?

    Even if they are occasionally keeping an eye upon the clans, be it through scouts or metaphysical means as they did when Raziel lived, what's the likelihood that they would be watching within the presumably short time span that he's going on this murdering rampage of his brethren? These are immortal entities who have lived for quite some time...it's very unlikely that they're going to keep tabs upon anything every day, week, month, etc... It's more likely that they would check ever so often and keep themselves hidden, continue to bolster their forces, do their own thing until they were sure that they were ready...sure that risking exposure of their sanctuary wouldn't end in their demise.

    If your people are being hunted into extinction, you become a ghost. You vanish and rejuvenate your forces, you fade from existence and let your enemy believe you're gone, dead, fled out of fear...you make them forget about you by leaving no trace of your existence. Then, when you know you're ready, you strike them when they least expect it, when they're vulnerable, you take them down before they even realize the mistake they made.

  22. #72
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    So you tell me that Razielims will go into "why keep an eye upon the clans and risk revealing yourself when you can be fairly assured of what's transpiring?" while also being "Then, when you know you're ready, you strike them when they least expect it, when they're vulnerable"?

    Isnt it kinda counterproductive? If they kept an eye on other clans - they SHOULD notice the fact that lesser vampires suddenly started to run around like chikens with cut-off heads since sires are all dead. Also leutenants were able to recognize Razel so why wont Razielims also recognize him if they are so bright as you claim?

    For the sake of possibility - yes its possible that Razelims are alive in some way. But its unlikeley, and if they migrated somewhere far - they are again as good as dead as far the story of Nosgoth goes.

    So why even bother? In the end they were left without sire, and I dont remebr that leutenats were spawning thrals for anything except troops. Army without free will, general and goal. I guess Razielims should be thankfull for the human uprising - they got some goal.

    And I highly doubt that without comand from siere thrals will still act as clan. Look at Dumah's clan - he was simply pierced by 3 spears, yet none of his "armodildos" cared to release their sire - instead they ran wildly in unorgonized small groups around Nosgoth, serving as quick snack for Raziel.
    Yet Dumah's "Reavers" here are described as cunning swift assasins trained in hunting and adept fighters.

    So tell me again about complicated schemes and minds of immortal.
    I highly doubt that thrals were anything but mindless tools in hands of leautenants, only cappable of acting if ordered.

    And even if we asume that Razielims were gifted with greater portion of Kain's gift and were naturally more intelligent before devolution, Dumah's forces were extreamly retarded in their devolved state and without leadership of Dumah and I guess that devolved Sentinels (and its stated that they are in highly devolved state) withour leadership of Raziel probably wont have high intelligence either, which will only become worse as the time will pass. And since they devolve so fast I guess one day they will just completely achieve "divine" state of an animal (bat).

    Sentinels are already devolved to the state other clans would achieve only after 500 years (Tyrants and Reavers are more or less humans with fangs, Sentinels look like monsters). And since devolution seems to hit brains of lesser vampires the hardest way - after 500 years Sentinels should have turned into completely mindles piece of bio-mass.
    Last edited by Derakus; 20th Oct 2013 at 05:45.

  23. #73
    Originally Posted by Derakus
    So you tell me that Razielims will go into "why keep an eye upon the clans and risk revealing yourself when you can be fairly assured of what's transpiring?" while also being "Then, when you know you're ready, you strike them when they least expect it, when they're vulnerable"?

    Isnt it kinda counterproductive? If they kept an eye on other clans - they SHOULD notice the fact that lesser vampires suddenly started to run around like chikens with cut-off heads since sires are all dead. Also leutenants were able to recognize Razel so why wont Razielims also recognize him if they are so bright as you claim?

    For the sake of possibility - yes its possible that Razelims are alive in some way. But its unlikeley, and if they migrated somewhere far - they are again as good as dead as far the story of Nosgoth goes.

    So why even bother? In the end they were left without sire, and I dont remebr that leutenats were spawning thrals for anything except troops. Army without free will, general and goal. I guess Razielims should be thankfull for the human uprising - they got some goal.

    And I highly doubt that without comand from siere thrals will still act as clan. Look at Dumah's clan - he was simply pierced by 3 spears, yet none of his "armodildos" cared to release their sire - instead they ran wildly in unorgonized small groups around Nosgoth, serving as quick snack for Raziel.
    Yet Dumah's "Reavers" here are described as cunning swift assasins trained in hunting and adept fighters.

    So tell me again about complicated schemes and minds of immortal.
    I highly doubt that thrals were anything but mindless tools in hands of leautenants, only cappable of acting if ordered.

    And even if we asume that Razielims were gifted with greater portion of Kain's gift and were naturally more intelligent before devolution, Dumah's forces were extreamly retarded in their devolved state and without leadership of Dumah and I guess that devolved Sentinels (and its stated that they are in highly devolved state) withour leadership of Raziel probably wont have high intelligence either, which will only become worse as the time will pass. And since they devolve so fast I guess one day they will just completely achieve "divine" state of an animal (bat).

    Sentinels are already devolved to the state other clans would achieve only after 500 years (Tyrants and Reavers are more or less humans with fangs, Sentinels look like monsters). And since devolution seems to hit brains of lesser vampires the hardest way - after 500 years Sentinels should have turned into completely mindles piece of bio-mass.
    If they're keeping tabs upon the clans, to any degree, they know that there are still three very powerful brothers to deal with...combined with their clans and potentially the thralls of Turel and Dumah. While they may have regained a significant portion of their former glory, it's unlikely they have the ability to dispatch three of these extremely powerful vampires.

    Before you mention anything involving them then being likely to see Raziel during his spree of vengeance...as I initially stated, just because they potentially keep an eye on the clans doesn't mean they were watching during this potentially brief dispatching of his brethren. They're immortal, know the general gist of what's transpiring, and want to remain hidden until a time of their choosing.

    With that said, you do bring up a point regarding the downright bestial nature of most underlings within this particular time frame...so even if they do still exist, it's likely that they have become similar in mind. However, we do see intelligence within the Tomb Guardian. He, however, was resurrected and that may play a part in his intelligence...though he's obviously an adult whereas Dumah's death seemed to impede his devolution process. So, it's fairly safe to assume that the Tomb Guardian was fully devolved before his death and resurrection.

    ...still, the intelligence may have been renewed through this process. So...you could have a very good point there.

  24. #74
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    Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna
    With that said, you do bring up a point regarding the downright bestial nature of most underlings within this particular time frame...so even if they do still exist, it's likely that they have become similar in mind. However, we do see intelligence within the Tomb Guardian. He, however, was resurrected and that may play a part in his intelligence...though he's obviously an adult whereas Dumah's death seemed to impede his devolution process. So, it's fairly safe to assume that the Tomb Guardian was fully devolved before his death and resurrection.

    ...still, the intelligence may have been renewed through this process. So...you could have a very good point there.
    The thing with Tomb Guardian and Turel's clan is that its unknown when exactly Turel was snaped out of his time.
    And the fact is that Tomb Guardian was intended to be Turel in first place, but things got changed for some reason, yet they kept a dialog between Raziel and Tomb Guard\Turel changing few lines.
    So may be Tomb Guard intelligence is just a coicidence of being substitute for actual Turel, and developers could never though that much on how should Turel's thrals look with rapid devolution in absence of sire. I gues we can basicly asume that Tomb Guardian = Turel just for the sake of keeping things consitent.

    Turel's thrals are territory linked and one of the most potent foes in SR1, they are also seems to be less devolved then other thrals.
    Same goes for Rahabims and spiders. You only encounter them in their domains, and they atleast got some tricks in sleeves when you fight them.

    Dumah's clan on the other hand was without leader for quite a long time and it was enough for them to go from assasins into feral armadillos who are scattered around whole Nosgoth doing stuff.

    Razielims were without leader for even longer times, then Dumah's thrals. And if we asume from what we know that absence of sire triggers rapid devolution into feral state - here we go with Sentinels developing wings and monstrouse features, while loosing most of their cunning and intelligence (but not all since they are able to comunicate with other thrals even in such devolved state).
    But after 500 years of such devolution Razielims are either extinct or no longer can be considered humanoids or vampires. My gues that they fully changed into normal animals in the end.

    Thats why I said that its UNLIKELY for Razelims to still exists at the time W-Raziel emerges after 500 years of having a nap in abyss. Possible - yes, but unlikely. And even if they still do exist - I doubt that Raziel would be happy about what they turned into.
    Last edited by Derakus; 20th Oct 2013 at 07:31.

  25. #75
    How much do we really know about the intelligence of ordinary vampires at the time of SR1? Only the tomb guardian ever talks, but it's not as though Raziel ever attempts communication with any others. They certainly don't seem amazingly sharp, but I don't know that they've necessarily degenerated into animal like states. A lot of that seems to be assumption.

    Yes, they gnaw on corpses like dogs, as Raziel put it. But... as opposed to normal vampire behavior? A lot of them, especially the Dumahim, appear to be rather single minded and not particularly civilized. Though societal breakdown can be responsible for a lot of that. Of course, something had to precipitate the societal breakdown. Just bear in mind that a group like the Dumahim are essentially refugees, a condition that does not encourage the most civilized behavior in humans either.

    The tomb guardian can of course talk, which doesn't necessarily mean they all still do, but I wouldn't rule it out. Other signs of intelligence might be the presence of the cultists in the Silenced Cathedral, which implies that the Zephonim at least have an understanding of social relations complex enough that they don't immediately consider the cultists to be food.

    Raziel remarks about the Melchiahim robbing graves to make more fledglings, and while he doesn't think highly of this, it does show that they are still quite capable of reproducing. Though it's unclear how much vampire behavior is attached to instinct. And Raziel disapproves, I must again ask how far digging up a corpse actually is from the behavior he's used to. Using a fresh corpse, I guess?

    If the free humans are making things like the citadel to keep themselves safe, I question how many free humans are accessible to be hunted. Which might imply that human domestication is still a thing. They have to feed themselves somehow. And if they are still keeping humans, that would also say something about their intelligence too.

    I'm not making an definitive statements about the intelligence of the vampires at this time. I don't really know. But I don't think it's safe to assume that they've turned completely into beasts.

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