Thread: The Tyrant Art in the Turelim Blog Post

The Tyrant Art in the Turelim Blog Post

  1. #26
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    The Turelhim is my favourite clan! Very good job guys!! *__*
    Probably i will always use the Tyrant to smash the little humans, muahahah!!

    Remember what Turel said:

    "Yes, i am changed. I have become a god. Greater than you ever were, Raziel. You were never a god. Greater even than Kain! " -

  2. #27
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    I'm personally not confident in reading that much into Turel's personality or his personal relationship with Raziel during the reign of Kain's empire. I don't think Turel being the one to spearhead the persecution of the Razielim makes him automatically a genocidal maniac. He was a loyal son to Kain who quickly stepped into Raziel's position and helped execute him when it came to it. I don't see the persecution of the Razielim being out of character with that. As the now eldest son and first lieutenant under Kain it would probably be as much his duty as any other of Kain's sons, if not more so.

    Also we don't know if Kain disappeared right away, soon after or a while after Raziel's execution. Kain could have oversaw the Razielim's persecution or if he was gone long or a while then Turel could have still been doing so out of a sense of duty to Kain. Alternatively even if Kain had been gone a long time and Turel was now seeking to consolidate his supremecy over his siblings then the Razielim would still be a viable target because they could be just as much a threat as any other clan.

    Not to mention that if they all share Nupraptor's curse through Kain then they also are unbalanced just as they are devolved. I imagine that to begin with they may have had a very strong bond and sense of camaraderie between them like their Sarafan selves before, but likely they became more deranged in their behaviour as they devolved to the state we find them in SR1.

    At least I think that could be a legitimate interpretation.
    Last edited by Reidbynature; 19th Oct 2013 at 00:09.
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  3. #28
    Originally Posted by NickTsiou
    wow hear another great idea, what if there are vampires with tenticles and three eyes or even better mermaid vampires with fairies to help them fight, lepricons with gold so they can buy upgrades. I know it's not LOK (or LOK related) but it does bring interesting features don't you agree?

    I am not dogmatic but I am not into ruining some fundamental things so new ideas can be introduced, like it's the ONLY possible way to do it.
    Way to exaggerate beyond measure and clear into the realm of absurdity. No wonder you wanted to bow out of the discussion prematurely.

    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    In my opinion the Claws and Toes seems to come from age and not devolution. Remember Vorador had claws like the anicient vampires and we are intruduced to him when he already is an ancient vampire. Also at the time we are introduced to Raziel, he is already a millennium old.

    I think the devolution has to do with some link to Kain's soul that all his descendent would have. Break a chain in that link (Raziel) and the connection weakens.
    Truth be told, Vorador presents some interesting information based upon his appearance; proving that there's a naturally occurring evolutionary process to vamprism. The talons upon the hands and feet seem to be a trait that all vampires develop over time, something that the Ancient Vampires themselves had.

    This presents quite a curiosity, how "evolved" do vampires become and how much of the clans appearance in Soul Reaver is a result of the devolution process? Were it not for the curse inflicted upon Kain, would the clans have evolved upon similar paths but with less bestial characteristics?

    Either way, the only thing we know for sure is that the talons evolve naturally regardless of the curse...one way or the other.

    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    I have a little bit of a quibble with something mentioned in the new Tyrant description. It's not really something I can argue against with a solid fact or a quote, but just kind of a "what?" moment, not sure if I'm missing something...



    Are we quite sure Turel of all people is likely to be the one who spearheaded the genocide of the Razielim?

    I don't know if I'm really convinced of that, based on his personality. Yes, we know Turel is characterised as an ambitious jerk who quickly slips into Raziel's former position as second-in-command, and we know the Razielim are the last thing between him and uncontested domination of Nosgoth, but I'm still not sure of the whole genocidal maniac slant here. The loudest voice, advocating a holy war against Raziel's children? For a lieutenant, that's a very hands-on approach, even in Kain's absence. I felt the Razielim may have been wiped out by attrition, but I didn't get the impression that one of the brethren themselves would actively campaign to tear Raziel's clan apart. And if one of them had, I'd think it would be Zephon, if anyone.

    I always felt there were hints of a mild fraternity between Turel and Raziel, more overt and noticeable than the relationships between other lieutenants. In SR1 deleted dialogue their tone towards each other is not very acrimonious, and Raziel is willing to spare Turel if he just gets out of the way (much unlike his attitude towards Dumah). In Defiance which is canon, and I know this is after much character development has taken place, but Raziel essentially seems to take pity on Turel and, again, they aren't aggressors. There's no suggestion of any really bad blood there, quite the contrary. From their interactions, I got a sense that Turel casting Raziel into the Abyss was really just a matter of duty and procedure for him, rather than anything spiteful.

    Turel in Defiance seems a little shocked and maybe even appalled to have heard that Raziel butchered the other lieutenants. "I heard what you did to them." Well if we take this new info to be the case, that he gleefully championed the mass murder of the Razielim off his own bat, he now starts to comes across as something of a serious hypocrite in that Pit, doesn't he?
    Agreed to an extent.

    It's possible that Turel's respect for Raziel was easily outweighed by his adoration for Kain. When Kain vanished, he may have felt honor bound to complete the extermination of the fallen son's underlings under the belief that it's what Kain wanted. I can see a slightly disheartened Turel snapping the necks of Razielim and wondering why exactly his father chose such wrath...and yet still carrying out the genocide regardless of his potentially conflicted mindset towards it.

    It's also possible that the Razielim themselves were considered too dangerous to keep around after the death of their sire. You have a clan that just had their sire torn asunder and tossed to his death, something that's likely to cause them a great deal of confusion and fear... Seeing as how they're evolving faster than the rest...fear of vengeance being carried out by his kin is a distinct possibility, and without any figurehead to keep them in check...eradication would appear to be the best option.

    Basically, it's sketchy at best...but an explanation could be fleshed out.

    Originally Posted by RainaAudron
    I must say I agree with Aevum on this. It has been seen throughout all the games that Raziel and Turel have been pretty close.

    In both canon meeting in Defiance and the cut meeting in SR1 Raziel gives Turel a chance to withdraw and hesitates to fight him.



    and in response to Turel´s behaviour. I think both of these hint that Raziel would not kill Turel if it could be avoided.

    This note about Turel as a Sarafan hints at that he would follow Kain´s orders to execute him but is also righteous so probably would not go to the extreme of personally trying to exterminate Razielim.

    Agree that Zephon or Melchiah are much appropriate candidates for this, as they were both very jealous of Raziel and their dialogue demonstrates this:
    Agreed that Zephon would have been a better choice suited to the task of eradication. I don't think Melchiah would have done it, he pities his own existence and wanted to die when we encounter him later on. I'm sure those inner demons were assaulting his psyche long before he became the massive husk of corpses we know and love.

    Basically, I think he was too busy self loathing to have any desire to do anything spiteful towards anyone.

  4. #29
    Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna


    It's possible that Turel's respect for Raziel was easily outweighed by his adoration for Kain. When Kain vanished, he may have felt honor bound to complete the extermination of the fallen son's underlings under the belief that it's what Kain wanted. I can see a slightly disheartened Turel snapping the necks of Razielim and wondering why exactly his father chose such wrath...and yet still carrying out the genocide regardless of his potentially conflicted mindset towards it.

    It's also possible that the Razielim themselves were considered too dangerous to keep around after the death of their sire. You have a clan that just had their sire torn asunder and tossed to his death, something that's likely to cause them a great deal of confusion and fear... Seeing as how they're evolving faster than the rest...fear of vengeance being carried out by his kin is a distinct possibility, and without any figurehead to keep them in check...eradication would appear to be the best option.
    Just because Razielim may have held Turel with some respect doesn't mean that it was reciprocated Turel could of easily harbored some jealousy of Raziel especially considering that he is quite arrogant. For instance even in the pit he boasted that he was greater than Kain despite being nothing more than the grotesque pet/mouth-piece of the Hylden Lord and when he thought that Consuming Raziel would give him the strength to overcome the hylden possession he didn't hesitate to try and kill him.

    I think Turel's primary trait is that he's able to convince himself that he must somehow be in the right, regardless of what he is doing. So when a chance to seize power arrived it was simple matter to delude himself that Razielim were heretics and needed to be wiped out rather than just wiping out a threat to his claim to the throne.

  5. #30
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    First of all - that picture looks much better than all other Turelim pictures shown thus far. I really think that every Turelim should have ears like that regardless of their age (both fledglings and adults had ears of the same size in SR).

    About Turel going genocidal. I think it makes sense. He and Dumah were the most arrogant out of the whole pack. When confronting Raziel both claimed to be more powerful than Kain (bold words, since one was blind and trapped and the other was turned into Swiss cheese by humans). They were the ones who threw Raziel into the Abyss and I can see them eradicating Razielim in pursuit of power.

    As for other clans. Melchiah and Rahab remained loyal to Kain. Their actions depend on whether Kain gave an explicit order to destroy Razielim or not.
    Zephon was the one that has (at least partially) lost his mind by the time Raziel emerged. Everything he said however only shows that he considered Raziel's evolution a betrayal. I think that hardly anyone in the empire viewed it otherwise.

    This however:
    When the true extent of the Human threat became apparent, the Tyrants readily called a truce with the other Clans, including the remnants of the Razielim, and took their renowned place in the vanguard of the Vampire legions.
    still makes absolutely no sense in my opinion.

  6. #31
    When the true extent of the Human threat became apparent, the Tyrants readily called a truce with the other Clans, including the remnants of the Razielim, and took their renowned place in the vanguard of the Vampire legions.
    I wouldn't say that makes no sense, Paradoks_db. Maybe it's missing some context, but it makes sense to me. Let's assume that when Kain leaves the Razielim are still being hunted, and maybe they've gotten good at hiding. Then the clans start infighting about who deserve which land and what not while the humans repopulate and gather their strength. Now the humans rebel and the vampires have a hard time handling them. Turel, as well as all Kain's lieutenants, would share Kain's ruthless strategic ideals (being under his leadership for a millenia). It's not hard to imagine that the lieutenants decided "let's trick the Razielim into fighting with us, then when we get the humans back in line we'll finish what we started."

    This is all my assumptions though.

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    I wouldn't say that makes no sense, Paradoks_db. Maybe it's missing some context, but it makes sense to me. Let's assume that when Kain leaves the Razielim are still being hunted, and maybe they've gotten good at hiding. Then the clans start infighting about who deserve which land and what not while the humans repopulate and gather their strength. Now the humans rebel and the vampires have a hard time handling them. Turel, as well as all Kain's lieutenants, would share Kain's ruthless strategic ideals (being under his leadership for a millenia). It's not hard to imagine that the lieutenants decided "let's trick the Razielim into fighting with us, then when we get the humans back in line we'll finish what we started."

    This is all my assumptions though.
    Would the Razielim be so easily tricked though? I think it's something more along the lines of an uneasy alliance.

  8. #33
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    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    It's not hard to imagine that the lieutenants decided "let's trick the Razielim into fighting with us, then when we get the humans back in line we'll finish what we started."
    Which could only work if Razielim's devolution started with their brains. They had absolutely nothing to gain from such alliance.

  9. #34
    ^Yeah, I was simplifying what might have happened... paragraph was getting a bit too wordy. The Razielim wouldn't be to eager to join either, but if they were also being hunted by humans they might think that allying themselves to the other clans might be the best way to survive for now.

  10. #35
    There's also no reason to assume that Turel shared the same fraternity with Raziels clan that he did with Raziel himself. His brother was already dead and any guilt he might have had would have been superceded by his belief that he was doing what Kain wanted. It might have simply been a case of "He's not around anymore, so I might as well claim his land" rather than "I hate him and want all trace of him gone". Even if that was the end result.

  11. #36
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    I've written about this on Eidos forums earlier and the only version that I find acceptable is that these Razielim are traitors to their clan. Razielim were marked for death by everyone. A conflict between humans and other clans was the best thing that could happen to them. What sort of argument did other clans have?
    "Hey guys, we know that we were trying to slaughter every single one of you, but these humans here are causing us some serious trouble. Could you please help us with it? We'll get back to slaughtering you once you help us defeat them."

  12. #37
    How about the argument that the Razielim need to feed? If they got scattered and their numbers dwindled, wouldn't it be possible that over time as the humans reclaimed their vampire hunter techniques that it would be hard to prey on humans? I'm sure if I was a starving vampire I would form an alliance hoping to get my strength up and then flee if things looked dire.

  13. #38
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    It's what you call an uneasy alliance. There's no guarantee that the Razielim won't be hunted down again once the war is over, but it's their best and arguably only choice. The humans certainly aren't going to suffer them to live or even begin to entertain the idea of allying with them. If the humans win then the Razielim are as good as dead. They'd be practically forced to accept a deal with the other clans, even if just to make things easier while there's a war on. Otherwise both the other vampire clans and the humans will hunt them down.
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  14. #39
    It's preferable to being killed on the spot. Gives them time to build their strength back up and come up with plan.

  15. #40
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    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    How about the argument that the Razielim need to feed? If they got scattered and their numbers dwindled, wouldn't it be possible that over time as the humans reclaimed their vampire hunter techniques that it would be hard to prey on humans? I'm sure if I was a starving vampire I would form an alliance hoping to get my strength up and then flee if things looked dire.
    It's no better than blood farms being guarded by other vampires. And if it's just survival then they don't need to drink human blood. Murals show ancients feeding on pigs and Kain was even drinking from mutated spiders.

    Originally Posted by Reidbynature
    It's what you call an uneasy alliance. There's no guarantee that the Razielim won't be hunted down again once the war is over, but it's their best and arguably only choice.
    No guarantee? It's certain that the clans would finish what they started. The choices were - be killed by humans or be killed by vampires. At least in the first case other clans would be punished as well.

    The humans certainly aren't going to suffer them to live or even begin to entertain the idea of allying with them.
    Well, it's not like it hasn't happened before.
    "We hate the Sarafan, we humans. The things they do, it's not right, not natural. If your kind can bring them down, I'll help you, I will."

    And (even if it's optional):



    If the humans win then the Razielim are as good as dead. They'd be practically forced to accept a deal with the other clans, even if just to make things easier while there's a war on. Otherwise both the other vampire clans and the humans will hunt them down.
    The humans and vampires will hunt them down either way. The best solution would be to either flee as far as possible, use the war between their enemies to regroup or try to damage the army that would be gaining advantage. Allying with their persecutors doesn't improve their situation in any way.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    It's preferable to being killed on the spot. Gives them time to build their strength back up and come up with plan.
    Which is why they should avoid conflict when both humans and other clans are occupied with each other. They both have more urgent concerns than Razielim.

  16. #41
    I think the point is that the Razielim have as much to lose from a human uprising as anyone else in the empire. Alliances and conflicts between vampires are nothing new, even if the conflict waged against them is particularly extreme. The future of relations with the other clans does not look good, but still contains a fair amount of uncertainty. Whereas the future relations with humans are pretty damn certain; if they aren't dominated, they will do everything in their power to destroy every last vampire.

    I agree that Turel's feelings, positive or negative, towards Raziel may not extend to the Razielim as a whole. These are vampires we're talking about here - they murder sentient beings when they feed. So it's not a stretch to assume that they do not put a great deal of value on the lives of individuals they consider to be beneath them, and this may well extend to lesser vampires. Even Raziel, though he was troubled by the loss of his own clan, and showed some remorse at the killing of his brothers, did not appear to have any particularly strong feelings about dispatching countless individuals of other clans.

    I do like the design in the blog post, I look forward to posts about the other clans and humans.

  17. #42
    Originally Posted by Paradoks_db
    Well, it's not like it hasn't happened before.
    "We hate the Sarafan, we humans. The things they do, it's not right, not natural. If your kind can bring them down, I'll help you, I will."
    This quote is taken out of context, right? I believe the person was talking about the Hylden lord's Serafan. Which we all know are allies to no one.

    Anyway most of your responses seems to stem from your assumption that everyone on Nosgoth is well educated and only makes the right decisions...

  18. #43
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    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    This quote is taken out of context, right? I believe the person was talking about the Hylden lord's Serafan. Which we all know are allies to no one.
    It's not taken out of context. It simply shows that some humans are willing to work with vampires under certain circumstances. The quote is about BO2 era Sarafan but at that point no one realised that the hylden were in charge.

    Anyway most of your responses seems to stem from your assumption that everyone on Nosgoth is well educated and only makes the right decisions...
    I'm basing my responses on assumption that Razielim had survival instinct.

    But this is getting off-topic. I'll wait with further debate until the Razielim's history is revealed.

  19. #44
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    NickTsiou, keep the insults to people's character and the devs in check, please. Everyone else, let's remember to play nice.




    It doesn't make much sense for the Razielim to engage in this war. At least not as allies. They can fly. They should be watching from above in places where the battles are taking place, looking to see if they can pick off spoils, but not doing so with any alliance to any clan. They'd be all too happy to watch as the other clans fell after what they've been through. Let them suffer under the humans, if they're that weak. After all, it really shouldn't be such a threat that the clans are truly thinking any of them would be actually overrun by humans. I would think the only reason they've aligned to crush the humans is because of the inherent outrage that these pesky humans have dared to think they could be a match for their masters. These motivations would be more of a reasonable response, in my own opinion. Again, if we think logically of any reason why we'd actually see Razielim on the battlefield, it should be just to pick off spoils to feed now and then, but from a gaemplay perspective, you're playing the few and the proud of them in more numbers.

    Indeed, thinking about this; there's little reason for the Razielim to wind up hunted and persecuted to extinction, given that they can fly out of there and hide in places no other vampire could get to. Except Kain. He, alone, would be the only one to reach such high places in batform. Other clans might have teleport abilities, perhaps, but it's uncertain if such an ability has ever been alluded works if a being has not already been to the spot they're teleporting to. Only when having to come down to feed, as noted, would they be vulnerable. And, of course, they're probably growing weaker by this hiding and inconsistent meals. Even if they are feasting on whatever animal life is out there, that's probably not the same as a healthy human, or being fed regularly by the blood farms. Indeed, Janos noted to the Hylden Lord that the curse specifically made them have to prey on humans, so I would take it that other sources would only do when they 're starving for blood, but it wouldn't be the same sustainable.


    The Lieutenants have been depicted as using their own clans in battles with their brethren's clans out of everything from jealousy to simply out of boredom. I am sure they had/have (present tense for this game) reverence for a few they've sired, and maybe even a hint of respect for a few in the other clans, but mostly they are all tools to use, probably. As noted, whatever mutual understanding Turel and Raziel had, it sure doesn't need to extend to Raziel's clan on Turel's part. They're probably seen as nothing but vermin to all of the clans. Turel would look weak not being the voice to call for continuing their decimation while Kain was away.



    That concept is infinitely better than the current in the game. Mesh that up and all will be love from the people, I am sure, heh.

  20. #45
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    Please, PLEASE Psyonix, forget about the lore-breaking/mainstream/uninspired turelim model you've shown so far and make a new one based on that artwork. It will cost you NOTHING and will make things just BETTER of everyone.

    Or at least make it an alternative skin free for everyone; it would make little sense to have two so different vampires at the same time, but I'd bet no-one would use the old one anyway; let the players choose for themselves, don't force on everyone a bad character for "marketing" reasons that make very little sense in a free game and zero in a game with such a unique context and setting.

  21. #46
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    I can see Turel participating in the genocide for many of the reasons above, but for me it clearly doesn't match up to paint him as the fellow leading the charge. You have to tread carefully when you're doing new things with these characters. The first caveat I gave is I can't give any hard proof, but like many previous posts I think you can safely extrapolate certain sensibilities from those few lines of dialogue for each lieutenant, and the dialogue is our best clue. It telegraphs a lot.

    The loudest voice on the planet calling for the extermination of the Razielim, allowing a "purge" to take place under his sanction, a holy war. This blog is essentially giving Soul Reaver's Raziel a new archvillain he doesn't know he has, pinning the real blame on Turel for all that relevant stuff in SR1, all those comments, the "wiped from this world like excrement from a boot", "what has become of my clan", "degenerate", "this act of genocide is unconscionable", "crimes", " your jealous hatred was the root of the wounds you inflicted". There's a leap from self-righteousness to mass murder in there which I don't think is natural for his established character. Nobody in SR1 seems to be at ease about the Razielim slaughter.

    It can be given some more of the development cleverly suggested above and then work out no problem, like reluctance for Turel, or if Turel had a misunderstanding that Kain wished for the Razielim to be wiped out. That nuance doesn't exist in this text, though.

    Nothing is telegraphed in the original games to suggest that Turel would be, or was, the ringleader in wiping out this clan. Defiance almost suggests he is still constantly obsessing over Raziel's execution in his mind, with the whole "shed the blood of your first-born upon the altar of the world" motif. Given the previous games, if I were told to give Raziel that second archenemy, who would be a more likely and natural candidate to fit into this "loudest voice" role, it would totally be Zephon. Every word of their dialogue is full of very personal contempt spat at each other, complete distrust, even the cut line "perhaps things have not changed as much as you'd like to believe. You were always weak, Zephon, and once again you will bend to my will". Much more plausible, then, that that spite would be made manifest in activities like this genocide.

    An even better solution for me would be to discard this massive extreme of one person masterminding the Razielim extermination, and instead going with Dan Cabuco's more morally ambiguous notion, that all five clans were partially responsible for "gleefully tearing the Razielim apart", and all of the lieutenants carry a measure of the blame.
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  22. #47
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    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    Nothing is telegraphed in the original games to suggest that Turel would be, or was, the ringleader in wiping out this clan. Defiance almost suggests he is still constantly obsessing over Raziel's execution in his mind, with the whole "shed the blood of your first-born upon the altar of the world" motif. Given the previous games, if I were told to give Raziel that second archenemy, who would be a more likely and natural candidate to fit into this "loudest voice" role, it would totally be Zephon. Every word of their dialogue is full of very personal contempt spat at each other, complete distrust, even the cut line "perhaps things have not changed as much as you'd like to believe. You were always weak, Zephon, and once again you will bend to my will". Much more plausible, then, that that spite would be made manifest in activities like this genocide.
    We agree. Don't forget this from the previous blog:

    "With the Razielim now bereft of a leader, the other Clans fell upon their territory – some wanting to seek glory by mirroring their Emperor’s actions, others to expand their influence by seizing precious land and resources, and a few simply to settle pernicious old scores. "

    Turel is the bit in bold. Who do you think the other descriptions relate to?
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  23. #48
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    I still think Zephon fits this much better (that bend to my will part is one of my favourites which got cut ). Agreed with Aevum here, there was so much tension and hate between Zephon and Raziel in the dialogue, yet I do not see any of that between Turel and Raziel.

  24. #49
    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    I can see Turel participating in the genocide for many of the reasons above, but for me it clearly doesn't match up to paint him as the fellow leading the charge. You have to tread carefully when you're doing new things with these characters. The first caveat I gave is I can't give any hard proof, but like many previous posts I think you can safely extrapolate certain sensibilities from those few lines of dialogue for each lieutenant, and the dialogue is our best clue. It telegraphs a lot.

    The loudest voice on the planet calling for the extermination of the Razielim, allowing a "purge" to take place under his sanction, a holy war. This blog is essentially giving Soul Reaver's Raziel a new archvillain he doesn't know he has, pinning the real blame on Turel for all that relevant stuff in SR1, all those comments, the "wiped from this world like excrement from a boot", "what has become of my clan", "degenerate", "this act of genocide is unconscionable", "crimes", " your jealous hatred was the root of the wounds you inflicted". There's a leap from self-righteousness to mass murder in there which I don't think is natural for his established character. Nobody in SR1 seems to be at ease about the Razielim slaughter.

    It can be given some more of the development cleverly suggested above and then work out no problem, like reluctance for Turel, or if Turel had a misunderstanding that Kain wished for the Razielim to be wiped out. That nuance doesn't exist in this text, though.

    Nothing is telegraphed in the original games to suggest that Turel would be, or was, the ringleader in wiping out this clan. Defiance almost suggests he is still constantly obsessing over Raziel's execution in his mind, with the whole "shed the blood of your first-born upon the altar of the world" motif. Given the previous games, if I were told to give Raziel that second archenemy, who would be a more likely and natural candidate to fit into this "loudest voice" role, it would totally be Zephon. Every word of their dialogue is full of very personal contempt spat at each other, complete distrust, even the cut line "perhaps things have not changed as much as you'd like to believe. You were always weak, Zephon, and once again you will bend to my will". Much more plausible, then, that that spite would be made manifest in activities like this genocide.

    An even better solution for me would be to discard this massive extreme of one person masterminding the Razielim extermination, and instead going with Dan Cabuco's more morally ambiguous notion, that all five clans were partially responsible for "gleefully tearing the Razielim apart", and all of the lieutenants carry a measure of the blame.
    Having his victims killed in the same manor as Raziel is more of a tradition he stuck with than an act of remorse. If he cared for his brother that much, he certainly wouldn't have tried to kill Raziel a second time just for a bit of blood.

    Most of what was discussed between Raziel and Kain was just assumption on Raziels part and the rest was Kain playing mind games with him.

    The three reasons for Turel wanting the Razielim dead were firstly that he was "so dutiful and righteous, even as a vampire", secondly that he would have wanted the glory and the spoils, and thirdly, that Raziel wasn't around anymore to miss them.

    Actually, a fourth reason could be that they were a rogue faction and a possible threat to the empire, at least at the beginning before all the clans began their infighting.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 19th Oct 2013 at 14:18.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Originally Posted by Monkeythumbz
    We agree. Don't forget this from the previous blog:

    "With the Razielim now bereft of a leader, the other Clans fell upon their territory – some wanting to seek glory by mirroring their Emperor’s actions, others to expand their influence by seizing precious land and resources, and a few simply to settle pernicious old scores. "

    Turel is the bit in bold. Who do you think the other descriptions relate to?
    That acquiesces some of my concerns, but if Turel has the "loudest voice" purely because he's motivated by a sense of zealous loyalty to Kain, looking for glory, I think that Rahab would still automatically be louder than him on that particular score.

    Turel was repeatedly established with aspirations and ambitions of rising above Kain, and believed he was finally a god "greater even than Kain" when he became Hash'ak'gik. Rahab came across as the really religiously-devoted one to me, who would launch purges and holy wars. He was the one telling people to "mind their blasphemous tongue" and proclaiming Kain their saviour. There is a touch of disdain in his conversation with Raziel, and I could see him championing the Razielim slaughter easily enough.

    The Smokestack is far from Raziel's territory (further than Rahabim, Melchahim, Zephonim AND Dumahim lands) and there are no Turelim near or within Raziel's lands in Soul Reaver. Equally, jealousy is less of a motivation for Turel to attack Raziel's descendants, because he's already the second-in-command. I know it's partially a matter of interpretation, but I just don't see justification in the idea that Turel was the most pro-genocide lieutenant of all five.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    The three reasons for Turel wanting the Razielim dead were
    Again, let me make good and clear, I'm emphatically NOT at all suggesting Turel has no reason to want the Razielim dead, I'm just saying he does not seem the likely candidate for the person who wants the Razielim dead more than anybody else in the entire world. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

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