Thread: Daniel Cabuco gives his thoughts:

Daniel Cabuco gives his thoughts:

  1. #1

    Daniel Cabuco gives his thoughts:


  2. #2
    Always good to see developers in this situation being the voice of reason.

  3. #3
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    Good find, Vampmaster. It's good to see Daniel reminding people to be open minded and that even though Nosgoth may not be what everyone wants it's still more good news than bad for the franchise.
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  4. #4
    An interesting find. I thought his points about the cosmetics of the clans was pretty refreshing.
    "They got the basic body categorizations right: Dumahim look fast. I'd have made them weaponlords of the vampire realm, but that could get them confused with humans. Turelhim are big brutes.. I could see them devolving into the large eared, thick torso'd vampires they eventually become."
    I think I'll use that little quote of Daniel Cabuco a lot in the near future.

  5. #5
    It'd be nice to hear what Amy thinks as well. I'm not on twitter, but I would like to know whether she agrees with those two say the Razielim would have been killed off immediately or if she thinks (as I do) that gradually would make more sense.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the finding, Vampmaster =D
    here we have a bunch of additional information that got me really exited to play this game...
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  7. #7
    With respect to Mr. Cabuco, I don't buy this idea of "It revives the franchise and will bring in more fans." I can't really imagine the modern team fortress player getting into Nosgoth and being so impressed by a slight dip into LoK lore that they find intriguing the old games where cut scenes can last for well over five minutes. I can only see this working two ways. Either Nosgoth comes and goes and LoK is never touched on again or more games come out to cater to the new fans who are too impatient for quick fast, hack and slash gameplay that story and atmosphere are drastically scaled down.

  8. #8
    You do realize that people can like multiple styles of games right? I myself like Team Fortress and that style of game. I also enjoy Legacy of Kain, Mass Effect, and other story heavy games.

    And ANY publicity for the setting helps keep it in the public eye. Just because you don't like this style of game doesn't mean it's a disservice to the series.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Rexidus
    You do realize that people can like multiple styles of games right? I myself like Team Fortress and that style of game. I also enjoy Legacy of Kain, Mass Effect, and other story heavy games.

    And ANY publicity for the setting helps keep it in the public eye. Just because you don't like this style of game doesn't mean it's a disservice to the series.
    It does if it means the quality of storytelling of the games that comes after take a nosedive to cater to a 'larger' audience. The original team knew who they were aiming their game towards and wanted to please them, give them the story they wanted to tell, not cater to a wider audience because when that happens your product inevitably turns bland

  10. #10
    Would you like some cheese with your DOOOOOOOOOMMMM!!?

  11. #11
    Would that be by any chance...Go Cheese?

  12. #12
    "Hey guys! if you buy stuff in the cash shop in this game we'll make a new LoK single player game experience, we'll get all the simon templars and jay tony's you want to voice act in it too, and it will have like TONS of the stuff you guys want like guns and explosions and teenage angst, we'll even get kain a new sparkle upgrade which renders him immune to sunlight! and a love interest! you guys like that right? guys??? heloooooo?? anyone here???" *taps the mic*

    Okay! All hyperbolic joking aside, let's say for a minute i'm HIGHLY skeptical about this game, what are the chances that any and all arguments are going to go like this

    I make a statement voicing my opinion about the fact this game "looks" to be a horrible frankensteins monster creation using the body parts of a beloved childhood franchise of mine, in which I make it highly clear that I don't hate the developers of the game, and merely question "why" they had to use LoK's settings and the sanity of spawning a MOBA spin off of it... and question the sanity of the PUBLISHERS who are driving for this to be made. I then get a few replies from those that have immediately decided that ANY and ALL criticism and skepticism are heathens and must be attacked post haste en masse and challenged with such strange rationale as the answer I joked about at the start of the post... such as "this may lead to a new lok single player" etc... which are HIGHLY disrespectful, filled with TERRIBLE "appeal to wishful thinking" fallacies, for which if I reply i'll be infracted more than likely, and if I show any sort of question towards said infraction will result in a banhammer to the face??

    Did i miss anything? wanted to be comprehensive in my question.

  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by Dreadkaiser
    "Hey guys! if you buy stuff in the cash shop in this game we'll make a new LoK single player game experience, we'll get all the simon templars and jay tony's you want to voice act in it too, and it will have like TONS of the stuff you guys want like guns and explosions and teenage angst, we'll even get kain a new sparkle upgrade which renders him immune to sunlight! and a love interest! you guys like that right? guys??? heloooooo?? anyone here???" *taps the mic*

    Okay! All hyperbolic joking aside, let's say for a minute i'm HIGHLY skeptical about this game, what are the chances that any and all arguments are going to go like this

    I make a statement voicing my opinion about the fact this game "looks" to be a horrible frankensteins monster creation using the body parts of a beloved childhood franchise of mine, in which I make it highly clear that I don't hate the developers of the game, and merely question "why" they had to use LoK's settings and the sanity of spawning a MOBA spin off of it... and question the sanity of the PUBLISHERS who are driving for this to be made. I then get a few replies from those that have immediately decided that ANY and ALL criticism and skepticism are heathens and must be attacked post haste en masse and challenged with such strange rationale as the answer I joked about at the start of the post... such as "this may lead to a new lok single player" etc... which are HIGHLY disrespectful, filled with TERRIBLE "appeal to wishful thinking" fallacies, for which if I reply i'll be infracted more than likely, and if I show any sort of question towards said infraction will result in a banhammer to the face??

    Did i miss anything? wanted to be comprehensive in my question.
    I will just play because I liked the game. If you do not, feel free to do not play it. But there is no need arguing in forums. This won't cancel the game or something. Forget it.
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  14. #14
    See... if you called my post hyperbolic, you'd be correct as it's a little over the top, I wasn't trying to mask that fact either as I had freely said it was. Also I'm not ARGUING anything, I merely asked a tongue in cheek question based on what I've been seeing. Making a straw man out of my questioning of the seeming direction that square enix has taken this game and torn it out of it's entire genre being odd, and stating that I'm arguing as in stirring the pot instead of being cautiously skeptical and questioning where this game is coming from is a bit well... silly...

    The whole argument of "if you don't like it then don't play it" is insanely empty as well, and avoids the ENTIRE point of the issues that folks have put forward in their myriad of posts and opinions. I mean if someone asked me why the decision was made to make Nosgoth, the correct answer is probably "I don't know, it doesn't make sense so let's ask them for more backstory on it" that's purely without going into any level of antagonism towards anyone because let's face it, this is already looking like one of those "aren't you thankful we did something with the I.p. you fondly remember" moments where fans are really left reeling and filled with questions...
    I am waiting patiently to hear more from the people in charge on why the choice was made to use nosgoth as a setting for this game being that it holds little in the way of "DNA" from the original series.

    But back to the "straw" in your "straw-man"

    I'm not expecting the game to be cancelled, it's got "financial risk proof" written all over it, and it's got "hah! who needs amy hennig" written all over the back, my point was that from what I've seen these kinds of spin off or reboots are never as successful as folks seem to think, and it's because they miss the SPIRIT of what their parent games where about. It's not like a fan of LoK won't appreciate some alternative perspectives and some context as to what was going on while "Kain was busy doing other things", but this looks like a textbook example of "we don't want to make a LoK games, but we'll slap the name Nosgoth on it, to draw in the fans"
    So i'm sorry if that begs the question of "why would you think this is a great idea outside of exploitation of a name?"
    You can somewhat argue that the question is loaded. But ultimately it's a question that I have to, as an avid gamer and fan of the series ask.

    it's odd though that the questioning of this game has seemingly resulted in some very lackluster responses here, while at the same time folks have decided that they will play the game, their answer to those who are skeptical has been that of "well.... don't then" and there is a distinct lack of any sort of desire to get anyone else interested, really looking like this is a game you can get passionate about guys.... I'm sorry if this is a bit patronizing, but from what I've seen the "It's f2p, stop complaining" crowd has firmly dug it's heels into here and will not care one jot about anything lost in translation with this game in regards to the series. And whilst I'm open to having my mind changed by persuasive rational arguments about this game,
    "time will tell" "don't play it then" "<insert straw man here>" etc as arguments will do nothing but waste virtual paper, and further create the illusion that this game series is being screwed around with and the fault lies not solely with the publisher who green lights this project and gives it the go ahead knowing full well its' a fish out of water with "dog" written on it, but the gamers who will look at the "free" in the description and decide that the new blanket response to ANY questions and critique of "it's free" is suddenly acceptable.... I'm literally counting the days til I come across an "entitled gamer" claim to anyone questioning this title. I really am. And the minute I see one I'm labeling this game highly questionable

    But to quickly add a TL;DR response to what was stated...

    IF you aren't going to at least offer some opinions as to the questions that I asked, and about the existence of the game, and are just going to play it for "x" reason, why should I care? why would you even respond and engage me? there's no discussion there, just your statement and a straw man claim...
    Last edited by Dreadkaiser; 17th Oct 2013 at 16:59.

  15. #15
    Game developers are all under NDA, so you can expect to never hear the reasoning behind why this game was made from them. If you've done as much research as me, and have been looking at recent gaming trends you'll see that this game isn't a mistake. It's a risky move, but not a mistake.

    We know that this game is made from a multilayer mode that was going to be included in the now cancelled LoK spiritual successor Dead Sun. Who knows why this game was cancelled? The most likely reasons are that the game wasn't very promising, went over budget at early milestones or had to have it's resources moved to more important projects.

    Now, in my opinion the reason why we got Nosgoth is probably because someone at Square-Enix thought that the multiplayer mode of Dead Sun was fun and interesting. Interesting enough to turn it into a stand alone multiplayer game. What are the most popular stand alone multiplayers right now? F2P, it's just the right move.

    A lot of people make the argument that this game doesn't share the vision of what the old LoK games. This is an invalid argument as well because there is no rule in game design that doesn't allow you to experiment with different genres or even try to re imagine the game itself. Yes I would like a sequel to Defiance, but seeing as how it was a commercial flop and the sequel that was to be Dark Prophecy was cancelled it's not very likely.

  16. #16
    Perhaps the game is a trial to see if there's enough interest for a Nosgoth MMORPG?

    We have more than enough lore and potential behind such a thing, but it would be a rather huge endeavor to achieve and more of a risk than even this game is. Perhaps this game is a test to see how interested people still are, and how interested they are in the branching out of the franchise.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    Game developers are all under NDA, so you can expect to never hear the reasoning behind why this game was made from them. If you've done as much research as me, and have been looking at recent gaming trends you'll see that this game isn't a mistake. It's a risky move, but not a mistake.

    We know that this game is made from a multilayer mode that was going to be included in the now cancelled LoK spiritual successor Dead Sun. Who knows why this game was cancelled? The most likely reasons are that the game wasn't very promising, went over budget at early milestones or had to have it's resources moved to more important projects.

    Now, in my opinion the reason why we got Nosgoth is probably because someone at Square-Enix thought that the multiplayer mode of Dead Sun was fun and interesting. Interesting enough to turn it into a stand alone multiplayer game. What are the most popular stand alone multiplayers right now? F2P, it's just the right move.

    A lot of people make the argument that this game doesn't share the vision of what the old LoK games. This is an invalid argument as well because there is no rule in game design that doesn't allow you to experiment with different genres or even try to re imagine the game itself. Yes I would like a sequel to Defiance, but seeing as how it was a commercial flop and the sequel that was to be Dark Prophecy was cancelled it's not very likely.
    And there is a large enough reason why you should be skeptical of games that crop up like this, you've got an excessive censorship of what the developers can and cannot say, I feel sorry for game them these days, they take the flak for decisions while the publishers remain unaccountable for their bad decisions. If I had someone come out and say "here's why this was considered a good idea, and it wasn't all just ways to "exploit" an IP we own" I'd feel a lot more at ease about the decision to make this game as it stands to be made.

    If they truly thought "hey the multiplayer mode is fun and interesting let's keep that because a lot of potential lies in there" then why also even bother naming it after the fictional land in which LoK was based? did they think that it was going to sit easy in the stomachs of the fans of the series? folks who have been very vocal and insistent on the series deserving a final chapter and to this day highly sing the praise of it's voice acting and storyline?

    They could have just called this ANYTHING else. They could have just left Nosgoth alone, to die or be redeemed off screen away from the harsh criticism of the fans, the die hards and passionate. Was this the old adage "there's no publicity like bad publicity" cos that's what folk around the internet seem to be conveying in terms of feedback, highly negative questions as to why the genre is being so changed.

    As far as the commercial "flop" of defiance one can HARDLY really claim that the axe fell on it fairly if we're looking at dead horses being flogged, especially considering EVERY tomb raider game + it's reboot that's come after... not every one of those was a success either by any stretch of the imagination... I mean come on, they've been churning them out to beat the band and with the exception of the new one, I wasn't exactly hearing the critical acclaim being tossed around about it... I mean how often did you hear

    "Gee I wish they'd hurry up and release another tomb raider game!"

    Because I personally can't recall it ever being uttered in sentence anywhere at any time on any of the internet forums I frequented while playing games and talking to fellow gamers. So while I HONESTLY hope that this game succeeds, and i wish psyonix all the best, I also cannot understand why you would take a game praised for it's storyline, writing, voice acting etc etc... And create a unreal tournament 2-esque game from it. I mean sure it could be fun, that's not the question being asked yet the straw man being thrown around... but I think considering there's been some odd claims about Dead Sun none of which stated the obvious flaws in it, such as the new main character being taken in a new art direction, the lack of a cohesive tie in to the original series all things which would have had fans skeptical of it, but which is clearly closer to the original game design INCLUDING the addition of a variation of the premise of this very game here... alongside it.

    And so I can't help but think, if you're going to salvage something from Dead Sun, why even bother keeping the IP? did they think it would not matter to long terms fans? that it wouldn't POTENTIALLY rustle a few jimmies?

    I'm not going to immediately claim they're "ruining the franchise qqqqqq" but their track record isn't EXACTLY amazing as of late, this is potentially a great little game, I just wish they would go all in or out on it. Make it a proper LoK worthy spin off. Or rename it something else and leave it alone.

    And Naturally as a f2p they can potentially make long term returns on it if ran properly, but lets face it.... just HOW MANY f2p multiplayer games are doing this in a manner that isn't abusive?

    As a long term fan of the series, and as someone who has seen the darkest side of f2p game models and their TERRIBLE cash shop woes. This game is already deeply concerning, is this going to be a horrible cash shop tied to a bastardization of a series I once considered the pinnacle of it's genre in terms of narrative?? this is potentially a nightmare, so I don't think skepticism is unfair in terms of reactions, you can play down the impact of my fears and feedback, you can claim it's gonna happen no matter what.

    But you cannot claim that it's not going to have overall effects, and if it loses it's old fanbase which it seems to be trying so hard to do with it's radical direction change, then who and what will go on the chopping block??

    Will you hear of Square enix decision makers losing their shirts over it???? Will you see them admit that the game would have been served better being released as a separate IP? Or do you think that it will be fans misplacing their anger at poor psyonix employee's who are just doing their job and making the game they're being paid to make? along with the franchise being once again shoved into a dark corner of their library of intellectual property storage. Setting us back to square one and doing as much damage to this game's potential in the process...

    This game could be so amazing, there's no NEED to tie it in with a franchise like LoK unless you're going to HEAVILY incorporate it's lore into the game and have a deep and rich story involving the actual plotline. This is like...

    "Ok guys, we know you're HUGE Call of duty fans and there hasn't been one in a while, so here's a new spinoff, Call of kitchen duty where you play an army chef who during the events of the war serves up military grade food to the troops"

    As a potential indie title, and if you consider it's for a niche audience, you COULD theoretically make a great game out of being a military kitchen worker... that's the beauty of video games, we see games like cart life selling just fine, just as we see games like papers please pop up every now and then. But it's still in bad taste to slap a name on those titles to tie in with larger titles... christ have you SEEN the worst iphone games series? the BLATANT ripofffs? this is just along those lines... I find it highly questionable.

    And if the dev's can't discuss this with fans due to some silly NDA, why in the * should we want to listen to anything else they have to say? Oh great, read us your carefully prepared manifesto again dudes, we were so listening to it the last time, it really said everything the focus groups said would sound great.

    I shudder when I consider how far this industry has fallen at times... where we stifle the very artists and designers that make our entertainment because we are afraid to take risks.

    So no, don't peg me as one of the "this game will suck" I'm more a "why is this game called nosgoth" guy personally. And despite this I wish psyonix and even the players that choose to play the game all the fun and success imaginable. But don't expect me to consider this an actual LoK or to not feel embittered by the use of it's name. Or buy into the idea that this will re-energize the series into getting a true sequel.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Dreadkaiser
    So no, don't peg me as one of the "this game will suck" I'm more a "why is this game called nosgoth" guy personally. And despite this I wish psyonix and even the players that choose to play the game all the fun and success imaginable. But don't expect me to consider this an actual LoK or to not feel embittered by the use of it's name. Or buy into the idea that this will re-energize the series into getting a true sequel.
    Sorry that you think so lowly of Nosgoth. While trying to answer your question about "why is this game called nosgoth" I may have left some points out. I guess I was making a general assumption that everyone knows how much work actually goes into making an current gen game.

    The reason they kept this game in the world of LoK wasn't to exploit an IP they own, but rather it wasn't worthwhile to change every asset in game to have nothing to do with LoK series.

    On a final note, Soul Reaver 1 didn't start as a sequel to Blood Omen. Originally the game was about fallen angels and a false god. Things change while developing games, it's a living breathing work with many artist giving their input.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    Sorry that you think so lowly of Nosgoth. While trying to answer your question about "why is this game called nosgoth" I may have left some points out. I guess I was making a general assumption that everyone knows how much work actually goes into making an current gen game.

    The reason they kept this game in the world of LoK wasn't to exploit an IP they own, but rather it wasn't worthwhile to change every asset in game to have nothing to do with LoK series.

    On a final note, Soul Reaver 1 didn't start as a sequel to Blood Omen. Originally the game was about fallen angels and a false god. Things change while developing games, it's a living breathing work with many artist giving their input.
    the art direction was already differing from the older LoK series... you probably would have been able to just alter a few things and no one would have been none the wiser.

    Again I'm not opposed to this game being made, from what i can see Psyonix are a decent bunch and they DESERVE to make this game, you'll see no misguided hatred towards them from me and I'm looking forward to what they can offer in this game, after all I am a league of legends player, so these kinds of games are engaging enough and if driven by the right pilots can be VERY good.
    My concerns are again raised at the choice of LoK, which pins folks down to a smaller set of vampire clans based on the lieutenants, ideally with a game like this you'd want to be really churning out those new characters at a decent rate per year if it's successful, I can't see them doing that without running out of source material, then we get into the whole issue of throwing marmalade all over your chocolate...

    It's not just that I'm being a passionately rabid fanboy screaming "leave kain alone, just leave em alone *sob* " No I'm concerned that LoK is too LIMITING as an IP even if we are throwing out the playbook genre wise, ya digg?

  20. #20
    As long as they deal with the vampire cosmetic problem I will play it , just like I played every Jurassic Park game that came out I will play because I like the franchise, but if the vamps still are 5 fingered mainstream vampires, then the game doesn't respect the franchise and it will be a failure, but I doubt they will stick to the human vampire looks considering the negative feedback they received on it , so Nosgoth may just turn out to be a very good LoK game at release, or a cheap failure, depends on how much they stick with the original LoK theme and mythos
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  21. #21
    Originally Posted by LordNekronom
    As long as they deal with the vampire cosmetic problem I will play it , just like I played every Jurassic Park game that came out I will play because I like the franchise, but if the vamps still are 5 fingered mainstream vampires, then the game doesn't respect the franchise and it will be a failure, but I doubt they will stick to the human vampire looks considering the negative feedback they received on it , so Nosgoth may just turn out to be a very good LoK game at release, or a cheap failure, depends on how much they stick with the original LoK theme and mythos
    im with ya all the way I downright hate the vampire looks in this game but something tells me they wont change it sorry but they have not been exactly opened to fans expectations and I feel the same if they are gonna look like cliché sellout mainstream vampires then the game doesn't respect the franchise as a fan im willing to try it.

    I hope this paves the way for a new actual LOK game I want dark prophecy we want sequels
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 23rd Nov 2013 at 01:16. Reason: Merged double posts