Thread: I'm glad you gave it another name

I'm glad you gave it another name

  1. #1

    I'm glad you gave it another name

    For one i'm heavily disappointed in the direction this is going, but seeing as the gameplay of the series has been different it could be good right? Well no, since Amy Hennig is no longer working on the story, and the original cast of voice actors won't be making a return, the series' 2 most godly features are out. The only direction to take is a reboot right, since a sequel would hit a sensitive spot with the fans.
    So you decided to base it on the world of nosgoth. Alright, not a bad idea. But the designs, jesus, it doesn't respect the original material at all. There are too many discrepancies. It doesn't look like the LoK universe even though it logically has some elements from it.

    You'll get nowhere with the old fans if you disrespect the source material. In fact, i believe it will create a wave of negativity. But it's too late now. Everything is already in motion. And making changes now would be like throwing a small stone into a flowing river.
    Godspeed people. You're going to need it.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by CatnipPhilosophy
    Everything is already in motion. And making changes now would be like throwing a small stone into a flowing river.
    The game is still in beta, right now it's the best chance to discuss these discrepancies with the devs and see if they can fix them.

  3. #3
    Well i don't think they're going to remodel the characters and go back on their concept of humans vs vampires. It's a good concept, but humans were domesticated around SR1 time.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by CatnipPhilosophy
    Well . i don't think they're going to remodel the characters and go back on their concept of humans vs vampires. It's a good concept, but humans were domesticated around SR1 time.
    They were domesticated at the start of SR1, but run amuck during the centuries where Raziel was in the abyss. That's what this war is about.

    BTW, reboot to me means reimagining. Someone will inevitably mess up the story by trying to put their own stamp on it.

  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by CatnipPhilosophy
    The only direction to take is a reboot right, since a sequel would hit a sensitive spot with the fans.
    I think, or at least hope, that you have this backwards.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  6. #6
    "The destruction of the major human Kingdoms was
    inevitable. Within a hundred years, humanity had been
    thoroughly domesticated. To be sure, there remained some feral humans scattered across the hinterlands,
    clinging to their hopeless holy war to rid Nosgoth of ‘the vampire scourge’. They were tolerated. They
    made existence for the fledglings more challenging.

    After the taming of the humans, our real work began; shaping Nosgoth to our will. Around the Pillars,
    slaves constructed a shrine worthy of our new age, worthy of our new renaissance. Huge furnaces were
    built to belch smoke into the sky, shielding the land from the poisonous effects of the sun.
    Never had the world known a time of such beauty."

    From the Soul Reaver Manual. Page 8

    What do we know from his?

    A) There is absolutely no way the humans would be able to garner a force actually strong enough to challenge the vampire empire that had ruled over them for centuries. Their last stronghold was built as a defense mechanism. It does not imply they were waiting for a moment to strike, it shows that it was made to REPEL the vampires. Same thing with places such as the Silent Cathedral

    B) The look of the new game is completely unjustified both from an artistic and lore perspective. The entire Legacy of Kain series was built around a gothic look. Throughout the games there's absolutely nothing that tells us otherwise even though the vast majority of Nosgoth has already been explored. Even while ignoring that, turning the post BO/Defiance landscape into a generic medieval/fantasy environment completely contradicts the lore. The sky should be covered by thick clouds of smoke and ash; leaving absolutely no place for any sort of architecture beyond a mesh of gothic and industrial aesthetics

  7. #7
    Consider the fact that they had centuries to (partially) rebuild their society between the time Raziel entered and emerged from the abyss. The clans were to busy fighting each other to maintain control of the humans.

  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by SpookieGhost
    A) There is absolutely no way the humans would be able to garner a force actually strong enough to challenge the vampire empire that had ruled over them for centuries. Their last stronghold was built as a defense mechanism. It does not imply they were waiting for a moment to strike, it shows that it was made to REPEL the vampires. Same thing with places such as the Silent Cathedral
    That's quite incorrect actually. They already did challenge the vampires between Raziel's execution and resurrection, and much more: they managed to kill the third most powerful vampire in existence, torch his city, and send his entire clan running for the hills. This took place centuries before Raziel returned in Soul Reaver, roughly the timeframe this game is set in.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  9. #9
    A sequel without amy hennig would be a bad sequel. Reboots are and shouldn't exist but at least if they have the decency not to touch the original story, and not want to connect this with the original story then all is fine.

    *edit*
    expanding on that, i feel as if wanting to connect to the original story is like writing fanfics. You are not the same team so you shouldn't mess with another team's work. You've been giving the rights yes, so from that perspective you are right, but from a fan acceptance perspective you are not. It doesn't matter how well you can think of a story that fits with the original thing, if the only thing we've seen so far is a blatant disregard for what the original series looked like and type of game it was, then i don't even want your lore and story.

    It's like taking sonic and robotnik away, putting sharks and crocs in a prison, and making 5 against 5 players fight for it with pinky the cute hedgehog, blitz the lightninghog, a fat danny devito lookalike in a flying sphere, and more were that came from. It's not a sonic game, it doesn't play like a sonic game, and it will not look like a sonic game.

    You want to make a LoK game? you copy the designs, you copy the world style, you copy the lore of the world, you copy the gameplay style and you adept them to a modern graphical style. If not, then people will lift their eyebrows at yet another reboot that doesn't respect what the fans want.
    Last edited by CatnipPhilosophy; 28th Sep 2013 at 22:57.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by SpookieGhost
    "The destruction of the major human Kingdoms was
    inevitable. Within a hundred years, humanity had been
    thoroughly domesticated...
    That intro is told from Raziel's perspective. He narrates the events as he believes them to be, and his knowledge of what happens in the Material Realm of Nosgoth ends when he is thrown in the Abyss. Humanity was 'domesticated' within a century of Kain and his six lieutenants attempting their conquest of Nosgoth. No credible human resistance had managed to organize itself in the 1000 years Raziel served Kain (from the SR1 intro: I have served him a millennium).

    However, consider the state of the vampire empire in the years following Raziel's execution: the senior Lieutenant of Kain is disgraced and gone. Kain has removed himself from Nosgoth (we presume that he has decided not to wait for Raziel to emerge from the Abyss and has used the Chronoplast to skip the intervening years). The clans are infighting and paying little attention to the humans whom they consider too inferior ever to be a threat... We saw what happened to Dumah as a result of this overconfidence in Soul Reaver.

    The vampire empire is in the weakest state is has been since Kain's initial conquest with Raziel & co. Why is it so incredible that a human resistance could be organized? Were the remaining lieutenants excellent strategists, if they cared at all what was happening and weren't preoccupied with their own decadence and self-interest? Raziel - as he's always been portrayed - is a bit ineffective (at best) and self-defeating (at worst) when left to his own devices. He was a soldier who relied on his commander perhaps more than he would readily admit. He was Kain's right hand, as he finally acknowledged. He was a bit rubbish at making his own decisions.

    A human resurgence may not have occurred in the vampires' seat of power - the Sanctuary of the Clans/the Pillars - due to the insidious actions of human vampire worshippers and the extreme risk involved. But in the hinterlands - on the edges of the empire where the clans, fighting amongst themselves, no longer had the resources to subjugate the human population - isn't it at least possible? Relatively speaking, the Silenced Cathedral and the Human Citadel are both fairly close to the heart of the empire, so they seem atypical of human strongholds in this time period.

    I think the Silenced Cathedral was an attempt to stop the initial growth of Kain's empire that failed when it was overrun, hence why Raziel knows and can relate its history to us in Soul Reaver. There's no way it could have got anywhere near completion once Kain gained control. The origins of the Human Citadel are harder to guess.

    I think it's unfair to say 'The look of the new game is completely unjustified both from an artistic and lore perspective'. I would say that there is more the developers could do to make the game world more 'Nosgothic' - things such as the introduction of murals, statues and other throwbacks to the rich history of the land. Some architecture inspired by the previous games would be fantastic too. However, the only areas of the new game I have seen so far have been human settlements to the south of the Pillars - places a bit removed from the heart of the vampire empire, and places not visited in Soul Reaver. Would the smokestacks necessarily have been able to cover all of Nosgoth and obscure the sun throughout the entire land? What is the definition of Nosgoth? How big is it, really. I think it's a big place, and as long as the designers don't completely contradict the appearance of a previously-visited location, I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. Why does it have to be gothic/industrial everywhere if that is a vampiric style and they don't dominate everywhere?

  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by CatnipPhilosophy
    expanding on that, i feel as if wanting to connect to the original story is like writing fanfics. You are not the same team so you shouldn't mess with another team's work. You've been giving the rights yes, so from that perspective you are right, but from a fan acceptance perspective you are not. It doesn't matter how well you can think of a story that fits with the original thing, if the only thing we've seen so far is a blatant disregard for what the original series looked like and type of game it was, then i don't even want your lore and story.
    Fun fact, Amy Hennig worked solely as the design manager in the latter half of Blood Omen's development and didn't write a word of its plot, by which token the 60% of the series she came up with must be fanfiction already.

    To dismiss and even permanently preclude the notion that there might be somebody else on this planet who could do the story justice, that's just handing feeble excuses to Amy's successors. You encouraged such abysmally-low levels of ambition from us, well here you are then, have an abysmal game, or here you are, a creatively-bankrupt reboot. No complaining. Thanks.

    I'm sorry but I'll need to fundamentally disagree. I'm invested in the plot of the LoK series and hope to see what happens next someday. I offer goodwill to anybody who genuinely tries to add to the existing story, including the Nosgoth team, and expect the best. Meanwhile I offer nothing but bad faith to any retreads or "new visions" of what has already been done, which literally get us nowhere.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    I'm sorry but I'll need to fundamentally disagree. I'm invested in the plot of the LoK series and hope to see what happens next someday. I offer goodwill to anybody who genuinely tries to add to the existing story, including the Nosgoth team, and expect the best. Meanwhile I offer nothing but bad faith to any retreads or "new visions" of what has already been done, which literally get us nowhere.
    You seem to imply Nosgoth will actually take us somewhere story-wise. Speaking in terms of lore and storyline of the series, it adds virtually nothing. Even dismissing all the arguments that point to the fact that this game completely contradicts crucial aspects of Soul Reaver 1, we gain absolutely nothing from the supposed "lore" that the devs are attempting to shove into the series. The rise and fall of a human resistance against the vampires is far from having any actual transcendence. We already know the outcome, we already know what happens to all the clans and lieutenants. We know that by the time Raziel comes back A) the clans are in ruins and secluded from each other B) The Razielim are extinct C) The humans are on the brink of extinction themselves

    The time gap between Raziel's execution and resurrection includes events so trivial that they're not worth building an entire game around. You know what would've actually been a good idea? To set the game during the Hylden-Ancient war. A time period that actually needs exploring and development.

    Why settle for a poor excuse for a game when we already had proper single-player storyline driven games in development previously? Why should people be told to shut up when there's clearly obvious problems with the progress of the game and the series? Because it's free? The game model doesn't appeal to me or the fans. Just because it's a free to play game automatically makes it immune to criticism? Even from a business model it's just wrong. What kind of audience are they aiming for? They're alienating the fans too much, and the fans are the only ones who actually would give a damn about a new LoK game

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by CatnipPhilosophy
    A sequel without amy hennig would be a bad sequel.
    I object to this. Amy Hennig is not the only amazing talented person in the world that could bring the series in an amazing new direction. I know it's hard to see past the Amy fanboyism inherent in all of us, but if we think like that, we're not going to get anywhere.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by SpookieGhost
    Why settle for a poor excuse for a game when we already had proper single-player storyline driven games in development previously
    I'd disagree that Nosgoth is a 'poor excuse for a game' until I've played it enough to judge it. As to why we haven't got a single-player, story based game:

    Originally Posted by CatnipPhilosophy
    A sequel without amy hennig would be a bad sequel. [...] i feel as if wanting to connect to the original story is like writing fanfics. You are not the same team so you shouldn't mess with another team's work. You've been giving the rights yes, so from that perspective you are right, but from a fan acceptance perspective you are not.
    The automatic backlash at anyone even attempting to continue to LoK story is enough to discourage most developers from trying. If they add a revelation (say, like Defiance's reveal about the location of the Heart of Darkness), there's a fair chance it will be dismissed as a cheap attempt to further the story because it's not how Amy Hennig would have written it. Short of tying her to a chair and getting her to write a future LoK game, I don't know how we're going to overcome that.

    Originally Posted by SpookieGhost
    The time gap between Raziel's execution and resurrection includes events so trivial that they're not worth building an entire game around. You know what would've actually been a good idea? To set the game during the Hylden-Ancient war. A time period that actually needs exploring and development.
    Maybe, but the seeming triviality of Nosgoth's setting is in part an attempt to appease fans of the series. Would we all accept the Square Enix version of what actually went on during the Hylden/Vampire war? Possibly not, so instead we have the least offensive time period they could choose. It's inconsequential to the story because they're trying so hard not to contradict the previous games' storylines. We won't get anything dramatic plot-wise until we, as fans, give them the benefit of the doubt and the licence to do something dramatic (and accept it as canon).

    Originally Posted by SpookieGhost
    Why should people be told to shut up when there's clearly obvious problems with the progress of the game and the series? Because it's free? The game model doesn't appeal to me or the fans. Just because it's a free to play game automatically makes it immune to criticism? Even from a business model it's just wrong. What kind of audience are they aiming for?
    Nosgoth is being criticised! However, there is a difference between constructive and non-constructive criticism. The game exists, and if there are bits you don't like, then surely working with the developer to rectify them is preferable to dismissing the entire project? People are not being told to shut up. YouTube comments were disabled on the announcement video, but there is clearly a platform here and elsewhere for you to voice your opinion. Respectfully, I disagree with your opinion, others will agree with you, that's all. On that note:

    Originally Posted by SpookieGhost
    They're alienating the fans too much, and the fans are the only ones who actually would give a damn about a new LoK game
    Please stop speaking as if the fanbase is a single entity; there is a split in the opinions of long time fans. You're not the only person to do it, and it's frustrating. I'm not being alienated by Nosgoth. Please do not speak for me, and I'll try not to speak for you.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by SpookieGhost
    B) The look of the new game is completely unjustified both from an artistic and lore perspective. The entire Legacy of Kain series was built around a gothic look. Throughout the games there's absolutely nothing that tells us otherwise even though the vast majority of Nosgoth has already been explored. Even while ignoring that, turning the post BO/Defiance landscape into a generic medieval/fantasy environment completely contradicts the lore. The sky should be covered by thick clouds of smoke and ash; leaving absolutely no place for any sort of architecture beyond a mesh of gothic and industrial aesthetics
    I disagree - only the HUMAN palaces and locations were inspired by Gothic architecture, such as the Sarafan Fortress, Willendorf's Castle and so on, the Vampiric buildings were inspired by more Arabic, middle eastern designs, and this can be proved just by looking at the Sanctuary of the Clans - by the time of Kain's empire most of the human palaces were mostly destroyed as the human kingdoms lost ground to him. By the time of Soul Reaver the only Gothic cathedral was flooded and the other Cathedral in the game was plagued by vampires and did not have any Gothic characteristics whatsoever... Same goes for Industrial designs.

    Another thing, the "generic medieval" (England) post Defiance is correct but not for this era; times change - think that once Kain's Empire was established the corruption slowly started to consume the land, and with it desertification caused a major change in the landscape... Nosgoth turned from being a green - generic European landscape to be a more middle eastern - deserted land that we see in Soul Reaver and in Nosgoth we can see it happening. And about the sun, the furnaces were working yes - but even at the strongest of Kain's Empire they did not manage to cover the sun entirely - I will quote The Hylden's photos below as we were talking about the same thing on the Eidos Forums:


    Yeah, that seems to be the sun shining there.


    And there.


    (click image to enlarge)
    Yes, there too.

    Open your mind, some people want to see the Sarafan Fortress standing in this era (not specifically, just an expression)- Kain would not have tolerated such a building to keep standing during his rule.

    Cheers,
    Ber.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 29th Sep 2013 at 17:42.

  16. #16
    But Kain did leave a Sarafan structure up. It survives straight on for Raziel to discover his own mausoleum. That was a Sarafan construction. (At least, I think It was a Sarafan construction. I guess they never do say who buried them specifically. For all we know it was their families who just figured they were such bros in life, they might as well be buried together...)

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Swagraven
    But Kain did leave a Sarafan structure up. It survives straight on for Raziel to discover his own mausoleum. That was a Sarafan construction. (At least, I think It was a Sarafan construction. I guess they never do say who buried them specifically. For all we know it was their families who just figured they were such bros in life, they might as well be buried together...)
    Is was an expression, the Sarafan tomb was amongst several human buildings that stood during an after te Empire, my point was that gothic strogholds and palaces were structures that belonges to powerful - well stablished human factions that would be long extinct by the time of Kains Empire. The human faction that appears in nosgoth wouldnt be either powerful or eatablished as they were just what was left of mankind making one last stand, they didnt have the tome nor the resources to build the buildinga you refer to.