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Thread: I don't understand a lot of this hate?

I don't understand a lot of this hate?

  1. #1

    I don't understand a lot of this hate?

    Why are so many LoK fans so pissed about the style of play this game is taking? Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?

  2. #2
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    I kind of do, but I think many are just being drama queens about it. People really need to grow up.

  3. #3
    People tend to be very vocal when they dislike something and a substantial change to a cherished thing is almost universally despised by the die hard fans. That is unfortunately the way of the interwebz.

    I just let the haters hate and get stoked for the game. I'll learn more before I decide if this game is true to the brand.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by MoebiusTimeStreamer
    Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?
    You have to understand the greater effects a game like this can have.

    Consider how Nintendo, Capcom, and EA reacted to Other M, DMC, and Syndicate respectively. The games were very much bastardizations of previous games in the series and rather than admit their mistake, they blamed poor sales on lack of interest in the series.

    It's a very concerning thing for a long time fan of a classic series like this. On one hand, if it sells poorly Sqeenix might blame it on lack of interest in LoK and shelve the series for another decade. On the other hand, if it sells well, then this may become a more permanent direction for the series and we still won't see the LoK game we've been waiting for for almost a decade till god knows when.

    I hope that answers your question

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by MoebiusTimeStreamer
    Why are so many LoK fans so pissed about the style of play this game is taking? Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?
    Fans are pissed because from everything people have seen so far, Nosgoth is everything that Legacy of Kain isn't with a name slapped on for brand recognition, giving off the idea to many that this is a greedy cash grab at a dedicated, niche fanbase. These so-called fans should learn to stop thinking they're entitled to everything in a franchise and understand that game developers sometimes like to put a spin on timeless classics, both big and small. With they way they behave, they should be grateful that they're even getting a new game after a whole decade.
    Last edited by Gihadist; 27th Sep 2013 at 03:23. Reason: Spelling errors

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Claribabe
    You have to understand the greater effects a game like this can have.

    Consider how Nintendo, Capcom, and EA reacted to Other M, DMC, and Syndicate respectively. The games were very much bastardizations of previous games in the series and rather than admit their mistake, they blamed poor sales on lack of interest in the series.

    It's a very concerning thing for a long time fan of a classic series like this. On one hand, if it sells poorly Sqeenix might blame it on lack of interest in LoK and shelve the series for another decade. On the other hand, if it sells well, then this may become a more permanent direction for the series and we still won't see the LoK game we've been waiting for for almost a decade till god knows when.

    I hope that answers your question

    Very well put. LOK fans aren't upset because of change, (we loved SR, which was different from BO) the anger is because all of what was loved about the series is not present in this game. People have been begging and pleading for a new game for a decade now, and have mostly been met with silence. Then a new game is announced and it is virtually the opposite of what the entire series is about. And I might add that there are some (like myself) that actually don't play games on PC. The series started on a console if I'm not mistaken. So even if I did want to try this game, I can't even do that unless somewhere down the road they decide to make it available for a console.

    I'm not up in arms hoping this fails, but at the same time, the choices made here have me scratching my head more than a little bit. If this was a companion game to an actual LOK title, or a multiplayer part of a LOK title, I'd be as happy as can be. As it stands now, I'm just trying to stay positive that something good may come out of this...though admittedly I can't see what that would be.

  7. #7
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    I think a lot of it is: it’s not a game in the same genre, its not the next-LoK game, the character differences to what was conceived in other games (looks), just to name a few…well these were my main initial issues. I think people will either warm to the idea once they get over the ‘shock’ of the universe game (hopefully this)…or they will continue to rage…or rage and secretly play it. This rage though does show the passion people have for the series and their love for LoK…even though it's show as negative…it is kind of positive…or not…maybe I’m just trying to be over positive heh.

  8. #8
    It's about the fact that a very lore-heavy, story-driven franchise that has been stalled and put on hold for so long with so many cancelled installments finally breaks the ice only to come out as a game type that is one of the least supportive of story elements.

  9. #9
    I agree with Rynfear. This is my biggest concern. If there isn't a deep story involving characters you get emotionally invested with, there is little to no appeal.

  10. #10
    It's okay to feel disappointed. Like me people were hoping for a new LoK game and instead we got Nosgoth. Unlike me some LoK fans simply don't like multiplayer and therefore Nosgoth is exclusionary to them.

  11. #11
    Alt universe timeline as far as I'm concerned

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by CountEyokir
    Alt universe timeline as far as I'm concerned
    Why? It fits within SR1 lore.

  13. #13
    Only superfluously. You could ignore the war depicted and their lore, pretend it doesn't exist and it would impact absolutely nothing. It's a bubble of lore that exists by itself. You could take it for granted or ignore with no consequence either way.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by CountEyokir
    Only superfluously. You could ignore the war depicted and their lore, pretend it doesn't exist and it would impact absolutely nothing.
    The war did happen though. In SR you find Dumah's fortress long crumbled and Dumah himself pinned to his throne. It's explicitly stated that humans did this. So Psyonix aren't just making it all up, the war did happen. The humans may have lost in the end or at least retreated to a single city, but not before they did some damage.

    You can still ignore the game though, it's not going to unravel much story and we know how it all ends, but I don't think you need to pretend it exists in an alternate timeline as it fits within the SR1 universe.

  15. #15
    Again - not really. You could assume, with just as much relevance to the story, that the Vampire hunters merely took advantage of Dumah's slothfulness and got lucky. An entire war isn't necessary. Also consider - the humans went from being weak with one fortress (Raziel knew of it) - endure a war and rise of power - then go back to being weak with one fortress. You could remove the ' endure a war and rise of power' and affects nothing. The events are irrelevant

  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by MoebiusTimeStreamer
    Why are so many LoK fans so pissed about the style of play this game is taking? Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?
    I will try to explain in the most clear and objective way I can, without inserting my personal opinion on Nosgoth.

    People are so pissed off because the Legacy of Kain series has always historically represented unprecedentedly-high-quality storytelling in gaming. Legacy of Kain games are traditionally single-player action-adventures developed by Crystal Dynamics, which follow the hero's journey model and revolve around the character of Kain. They continue to receive constant praise for their rich narrative even now. Many fans are even willing to acknowledge other flaws in the games, but are happy to overlook them by virtue of the calibre of the story.

    It's been ten years since the fifth and last game was released, which ended on a tantalising cliffhanger, but encouraged "hope" for the future and a conclusion to the story. Unfortunately, this game fell short of sales projections.

    In the intervening decade, the writer/director of the series left Crystal Dynamics, and when Crystal was told to begin work on the Tomb Raider franchise in 2005, almost all official word about Legacy of Kain came to a complete standstill despite continued fan interest. There was no formal announcement from anybody that the series had been shelved, and thus fans were kept fruitlessly guessing for years on end as to when the next entry might be announced. Fans petitioned for closure, wrote in letters, and continued to discuss the series like there was no tomorrow, but even so, to get a comment on Legacy of Kain from Eidos was tougher than drawing blood from a stone. Series game designer Kyle Mannerberg (RIP) and voice actor Tony Jay (RIP) sadly died in the meantime, sticking more nails in the proverbial coffin.

    In 2008, a fan named Mama Robotnik discovered that a sixth, single-player game in the series was in fact greenlighted, but was cancelled by the publisher in a matter of months, before being announced. In 2013, the very same fan revealed that yet another attempt at continuing the series had been scrapped in 2012, after three years of work, again ostensibly due to poor sales projections. In the meantime, (very arguably) adding insult to injury, Kain and Raziel were featured in a character pack for Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light which pieced together archive dialogue from the games to create an (arguably) uncomfortable Laurel and Hardy-like comedic skit out of their characters. Despite the goodwill behind them, these tribulations exacerbated Legacy of Kain fans' endless frustration.

    Now, after ten years of waiting to see what happens next, it is known that the new entry in the series is going to be a multiplayer deathmatch game featuring no Kain, no Raziel, no familiar characters, no story beats, minimal dialogue, minimal narrative, and no closure. Denis Dyack, creator of the series, once said, "when we create stories we try to model some classical models that were laid out by Shakespeare. You see, when he wrote a play he targeted his story at several levels. For the drunken commoners in the front rows he would insert dirty jokes to keep them entertained but for the aristocracy in the balconies he would write very cerebral metaphors. For Silicon Knights the gore is our dirty jokes, but for those who want more there is a real story behind Kain". It could be contended, then, that Nosgoth is almost purely about dirty jokes, whereas many people are more hungry for the cerebral aspects of the series.

    This game is using assets which would have gone into the single-player project cancelled in 2012, and was in fact supposed to be its supplementary multiplayer mode. Yes, it is a new game, but it still positions fans of the narrative in a nasty catch-22 predicament. Should Nosgoth succeed, it follows logically that Square Enix, who are after all currently hemorrhaging money and producing fewer AAA titles in general, might feel vindicated in having scrapped the single-player side of the project and be inclined to simply greenlight more Nosgoth derivatives indefinitely. Should Nosgoth flop, Square Enix may well decide that nobody is interested in the Legacy of Kain universe any more and shelve the series for another ten years, or more. There is no confidence.

    We are so, so invested in this story. That can't be emphasised enough. Lots of people would just like to see some resolution to Kain's journey after Defiance and are very, very tired of all the continuing delays, and diversions, and problems, and procrastination. Everything surrounding this game indicates that Square Enix may still not really appreciate this. In my estimation, all of this is what's coming to a head in the negative comments you've encountered.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  17. #17
    thank you for standing the concerns so pointedly.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by CountEyokir
    Again - not really. You could assume, with just as much relevance to the story, that the Vampire hunters merely took advantage of Dumah's slothfulness and got lucky. An entire war isn't necessary.
    I think that would be a bigger disregard of the lore than anything. Dumah was immensely powerful and his clan were more numerous than any other excepting maybe the Rahabim. You don't "get lucky" and manage to put him down without coming from a position of power.

    Originally Posted by CountEyokir
    Also consider - the humans went from being weak with one fortress (Raziel knew of it) - endure a war and rise of power - then go back to being weak with one fortress. You could remove the ' endure a war and rise of power' and affects nothing. The events are irrelevant
    I never said they're relevant. I said:

    You can still ignore the game though, it's not going to unravel much story and we know how it all ends, but I don't think you need to pretend it exists in an alternate timeline as it fits within the SR1 universe.
    And I stand by it.

    Edit: I notice that quoting myself put it in bold, weird.

  19. #19
    1) - "Failed to see an attack, coming from the least likely assailants. Complacent in their arrogance, they were taken by surprise." Unless this is the human's opening gambit in the war, Dumah would have to be pretty damn stupid to not consider a rising humanity a threat. Besides, you don't need a large force to take on superior numbers. You need careful planning, the element of surprise and a swift surgical strike - take out Dumah and his fortress and withdraw, leaving the Dumahim leaderless. If they were already in a war then they are certainly not the least likely assailants. Quite the opposite. This conjecture however is certainly not laid out in their 'lore' and thus all consideration by us is moot on the subject. Its still pretty irrelevant either way through

    2) It fits but its still in its own bubble and has no consequence either way. Why consider it worth notice if there is no consequence?

    3) Why should anyone invested in a war when I already know one side is reduced back to the state they were before it started and the other devolves into the monsters I pummelled into submission back on the Dreamcast?

  20. #20
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    I would say that's spot on Lord_Aevum! Myself I've also been waiting a long time (since defiance was released) for a new Legacy of Kain game so we all can get some closure or perhaps more story. So when I heard that they have cancelled not one, but ten games... just guess how disappointed I was or still are, especially after seeing all the screens, videos and so on from Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun. And too hear that instead of LoK: Dead Sun they're going to make another hack-n-slash-farming-f2p-mmo like all the other game studios nowadays of the franchise, that's even more disappointing. I play these games for the story. But I'm going give it a try, but I'm very sure that I'll be disappointed.

  21. #21
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    Well, let's be upfront about the ten cancelled games thing - it's honestly "only" two games that have been scrapped. The rest of those mentioned were just ports or completely unrelated projects which fed into the LoK series after the fact.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  22. #22
    Lord_Aevum put it perfectly. I don't think there is another word that needs to be said on the disappointment that is felt here. At this point, it is indeed a catch 22 for fans. I don't want to wish anyone ill will, but I can easily imagine SE looking at good numbers on Nosgoth and happily green lighting a Nosgoth 2. On the other hand, if we ignore this, I can just as clearly see SE shelving it indefinitely. What I wish is that if there is nothing planned for an actual LOK game, why not just sell the license? Maybe that's naive. I would love to see this go to Naughty Dog. Amy is already there. (yup, I'm pipe-dreaming here for sure)

    Ah well. The devs seem happy to have done this, so I'm happy for them. I just really don't know how to feel about this. If they would just come transparent with us and tell us what the hell is going on, it would at the least, assuage all our fears and speculations. Personally, if I knew that another LOK game was in the works, or it hinged on the success of this Nosgoth project, I would swallow my detest of multiplayer and support it (I don't even play games on PC!!!!!!) to help ensure we get another actual LOK game.

    I think at the core of this, that is what they need to do. Just quite with the silent treatment and friggin talk to people. Be honest. "This is why we have/have not made another game, and this is what we're doing!" If they would at least be straight with us, LOK fans could either be elated and support this new project, or finally release all hope and move on. They need to quite being silent and be straight up with us. That, to me, would be the best action to take.

  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by 88chaz88
    Edit: I notice that quoting myself put it in bold, weird.
    Fixed.

  24. #24
    I am a huge Kain fan and when I saw the trailer I immediately created an account. I hope I get into the beta, game looks cool.
    Will be playing human for sure

  25. #25
    Unfortunately this kind of situation happens a lot. With the current Elder Scrolls MMO coming out or for example the new Devil May Cry. Designers tend to want to create something new, exciting, open for not just the fans, but also a new crowd that may come into the game as well. Sadly they tend to deviate from the lore in the games to really just please the crowd. Usually it does work though, tons of people bought the recent Devil May Cry, and tons of people are actively waiting for the new Elder Scrolls MMO. It has worked in the past, but you can be there will be some fans out there that just can't live with it and will forsake the game completely once it does come out and doesn't fit their standards. Nosgoth will appeal to some of the older players, may bring about new players into the game, and those who can't stand it will just drop it. I won't argue if the changes are right or wrong, but the sad truth is this happens.

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