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Thread: We're taking this whole thing too seriously.

We're taking this whole thing too seriously.

  1. #1
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    We're taking this whole thing too seriously.

    Honestly, I was a bit disappointed when this was first announced. I too wanted a conclusion to the Legacy of Kain-epic, after the massive cliffhanger from Defiance. When I saw the trailer, I thought to myself "Man, this takes a huge dump of feces on the lore, what is the Razielim doing here, why is this even a thing". But I've been thinking about it and I can say now it doesn't seem that bad.

    The negativity comes from the fact that people always wanted what I want too; a true Legacy of Kain sequel. What we got was something completely different. People hate changes. But we, the fans, are taking this too hard. I've seen a lot of posts on this and other forums that had the same opinion on the game as I had yesterday. We should stay positive, or at least neutral to this game. I've seen people slamming the developers and the game for not being consistent with the other installments in Legacy of Kain. Thing is, Legacy of Kain has never been consistent with itself.
    We've seen a LOT of retcons take place in order for the story to progress up to Defiance. Besides, the game might not be canon, just like how most of World of Warcraft isn't canon to Warcraft. The gameplay looks nice and the characters look nice (although the Dumahim and the Turelim doesn't look like their SR1 counterparts).

    What I'm saying is, relax. Take a step back and look at it from a different perspective. If you still don't like it, that's completely okay. Just remember that the Legacy of Kain-series aren't dead because of one multiplayer spin-off
    Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!

  2. #2
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    Good perspective there I have to say some of us from over at the Eidos forums went through all of this a while back (with the pre-release information) and I for one completely freaked out at first but after a while come to like the idea of this – yes its different but different can be good too! Right?

    I have to say after getting the fantastic opportunity (with the other guys/gals) and spending the time at SE and getting the chance to play Nosgoth – I will say again to all fans of the series – PLEASE GIVE THIS A CHANCE because it is really enjoyable and fun. The developers are fans of the series – have worked stuff out and have played the games and they have thought about the lores. If you don’t believe me look some of them up (such as Jason Walker and see what he’s worked on previously!) or look at the threads on the LoK Eidos forum

    I can’t wait to see the answers to the questions out in the ether and settle a few things – this game is awesome – though not what we wanted/expected but nonetheless its still cool.

  3. #3
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    I can just speak for myself, but consistency isn't my problem at all. I think the people, who are defending Nosgoth (which is fine!), have to understand, that people don't hate Nosgoth, just because they hate new things, but because Nosgoth is as far away as you can get from the original games. Yes, Soul Reaver isn't the same as Blood Omen and Blood Omen 2 and Defiance are different, too, but they were all great action adventure games with amazing characters and story - they had something in common. I personally wouldn't mind if they would have tried Dead Sun.

    Think back at the Syndicate shooter and the new XCom and how bad they turned out. Hell, it even makes me angry when people of EA are looking at their bad Syndicate sales and asume nobody ist interested in Syndicate anymore, which is just a complete misunderstanding of their fanbase.
    And yes, people got their RTS XCom, but after the fans had been very loud. I doubt that would have turned out well, when the fans just accepted the XCom shooter.

  4. #4
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    @ Le_Don

    I think fans have to keep in mind what Dead Sun would have probably been…the game play yes was in the same genre but would have messed with the story (from what has been said and leaked) – come on purchasable wings – really? Nosgoth however keeps in line with the lore but isn’t in the same genre.

    I know it’s not what people wanted (yes – I want a continuation too) but IMO it’s the lesser of two evils…and it is pretty damn awesome - and we never know what the future holds!

    ...I'm sounding like a broken record so I'll go now.

  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by Limed00d
    We've seen a LOT of retcons take place in order for the story to progress up to Defiance. Besides, the game might not be canon, just like how most of World of Warcraft isn't canon to Warcraft. The gameplay looks nice and the characters look nice (although the Dumahim and the Turelim doesn't look like their SR1 counterparts).
    I couldn't disagree more on that point. The strength of the LoK series has always been integrating every part of the story (even the painful ones) by building around it rather than retconning.
    Also what are you talking about: WoW is canon to Warcraft, but this has little to do with the matter at hand.

    I kind of agree with you that the problem isn't the continuity, though. But is it okay because the corporate side of things decided to turn the multiplayer part of a new game into a full fledged game that no fan has ever asked for?
    I agree some people go too far with their hatred, but it is easily understandable for the very reason you mentionned: everyone wants a true LoK game.

    Who here would consider trying out this game if it didn't have "Nosgoth" for title? I'd say it is our right (and even our "duty", if we weren't talking about video games) as long time fans to make it clear it's not what we want for this series.
    Because if you adopt the "I'll play it to support the series" mentality, then you're doing it wrong. In that case they'd just think we really like this kind of game in this series, so they'd give us another one.

    But if you really love what you're seeing, then by all means, show and shout your support!
    Opinions, folks!

  6. #6
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    I agree with Lucin on Dead Sun... it got too many things wrong IMO... While I like the idea of returning to the core gameplay which SR had, however as George said, they realized it wasn´t probably the thing to go with in the end and at least kept Nosgoth.

  7. #7
    I will be giving this game a chance and that is a pretty big thing for me. I don't play MMOGs at all. I tried WoW one summer and called it quits after the free month. I want a single player game, but I realize that a LoK game like what I want is now a niche game. I have been with LoK since day one.

    To keep me happy, the game better utilize the voice talent from the previous games. I don't care if it is just Simon saying "triple kill". In addition, I would like to see a true sequel in the future. Even a remake of the original blood omen would be awesome. What I don't want is just the Nosgoth game. I will be giving this a chance and will try my best to give them my support and money when the time comes in order to get the company the funds it needs to make my niche game.

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    I think Nosgoth gives us a new chance to get a single player game in the future.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by RainaAudron
    I think Nosgoth gives us a new chance to get a single player game in the future.
    Exactly! What we want is a niche game everyone. If we want it, we really should support a game that will draw in a lot of people. We all know that a game such as what Nosgoth will be is what the majority wants. Look at Mass Effect 3. I wanted a part three to the original Mass Effect. Instead I got a half that game and the real game they wanted to sell Mass Effect the MMOG.

  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by LordScythican
    I want a single player game, but I realize that a LoK game like what I want is now a niche game.
    Guys, I can't agree here. When have action adventure games become niche? They're not! Darksiders, the new Castlevania, Tomb Raider 2013 (even if SquareEnix won't admit it because they have completely unrealistic expectations) and a bunch of indie titles (Bastion, off the top of my head) have a really good market for them and were very successful!

  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by lucinvampire
    @ Le_Don

    I think fans have to keep in mind what Dead Sun would have probably been…the game play yes was in the same genre but would have messed with the story (from what has been said and leaked) – come on purchasable wings – really? Nosgoth however keeps in line with the lore but isn’t in the same genre.

    I know it’s not what people wanted (yes – I want a continuation too) but IMO it’s the lesser of two evils…and it is pretty damn awesome - and we never know what the future holds!

    ...I'm sounding like a broken record so I'll go now.
    There is a major problem in this. The people, who are defending Nosgoth, are attacking Dead Sun with the same arguments they are trying to talk down. I can give you the same arguments Limedood and other people used about Nosgoth, like changes aren't that bad, things have to evolve and how every other LoK is different to each other. That Dead Sun would have messed with the story is just speculation - maybe, but maybe it would fit the same how Soul Reaver fit with Blood Omen - and Nosgoth seems to be a little bit edgy with the original story, too.

    I have the feeling, that Dead Sun as a single player game could have had the potential to surprise the players and in this case I think it's sad, how people doomed it, before they had a chance to play it. With Nosgoth on the other hand they are trying to release a competitive multiplayer game and I don't see that potential at all.

    I'm not trying to ban Nosgoth or something like that. It's completely fine, when the developers want to work on it and players want to play this game and maybe even have fun with it. I guess I won't, because the gameplay concept doesn't sound very well to me, but that's fine, too (hell, I even signed up for the beta, to be sure I won't like or maybe even having fun after all). I'm just trying to explain how you should not misunderstand the people, who dislikes Nosgoth.

    Originally Posted by Dagren
    Who here would consider trying out this game if it didn't have "Nosgoth" for title? I'd say it is our right (and even our "duty", if we weren't talking about video games) as long time fans to make it clear it's not what we want for this series.
    Because if you adopt the "I'll play it to support the series" mentality, then you're doing it wrong. In that case they'd just think we really like this kind of game in this series, so they'd give us another one.

    But if you really love what you're seeing, then by all means, show and shout your support!
    Opinions, folks!
    Exactly that. Like I said, the people maybe wouldn't have get the XCom RTS, when they just accepted the shooter. It's not hatred, that is flamming the fuel, it's passion.

    And if we talk about Nosgoth, then you aren't supporting the LoK franchise, but this F2P mutliplayer shooter. You might get a new LoK by supporting a game, which you may don't like, but chances are you are just getting more of the same.
    Last edited by Le_Don; 26th Sep 2013 at 13:07.

  12. #12
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    @ LordScythican – no Simon if I recall correctly from what was said over at Eidos forum – unless he’s been asked after him responding to the question of him being in a new game that is.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Dagren
    Guys, I can't agree here. When have action adventure games become niche? They're not! Darksiders, the new Castlevania, Tomb Raider 2013 (even if SquareEnix won't admit it because they have completely unrealistic expectations) and a bunch of indie titles (Bastion, off the top of my head) have a really good market for them and were very successful!
    Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 1.4 million units
    Darksiders: 2.6 million units
    Tomb Raider: 2.64 million units
    World of Warcraft: 18.68 million units
    League of Legends: 32 Million active players per month (12 Million Daily)



    With numbers like that, action adventure games are becoming niche. It doesn't help that LoK is a niche franchise as well. MMOGs are where it is at.

  14. #14
    For anyone wanting a sequel to Defiance may I point out that Amy Hennig works for Naughty Dog now, Tony Jay is no longer amongst the living, and it would likely be impossible to get many others who made the previous games so great. Even if we did break the laws of physics and assemble the dream team again, the chances of a sequel being more than a disappointment is slim considering how much time has passed.

    It's a bummer we're left with a cliffhanger but perhaps it's best left a mystery.

    I'd definitely welcome new games set in the universe without having to deal with the Legacy of Kain though. Maybe a new singleplayer adventure somewhere down the lines.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by lucinvampire
    @ LordScythican – no Simon if I recall correctly from what was said over at Eidos forum – unless he’s been asked after him responding to the question of him being in a new game that is.
    That isn't good news.
    I really need something from the franchise besides a couple name drops like Razielim.

  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by 88chaz88
    For anyone wanting a sequel to Defiance may I point out that Amy Hennig works for Naughty Dog now, Tony Jay is no longer amongst the living, and it would likely be impossible to get many others who made the previous games so great. Even if we did break the laws of physics and assemble the dream team again, the chances of a sequel being more than a disappointment is slim considering how much time has passed.
    But they aren't the only people, who can make great games and it hasn't to be an exact copy of the old games. Changes are indeed very welcomed. I don't see why a new LoK has to be a complete recap of the old or a F2P online shooter. This is a very large spectrum .

  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by LordScythican
    Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 1.4 million units
    Darksiders: 2.6 million units
    Tomb Raider: 2.64 million units
    World of Warcraft: 18.68 million units
    League of Legends: 32 Million active players per month (12 Million Daily)



    With numbers like that, action adventure games are becoming niche. It doesn't help that LoK is a niche franchise as well. MMOGs are where it is at.
    I'm sorry, but are you out of your mind? How do you make 2 million+ copies a commercial failure?
    The thing is, there is only one WoW and one LoL, but for how many failed attempts at copying them? While there is a market out there (god, 2million+ copies sold!!!) for action adventure games, especially when you have teams that are experienced at developing such titles.

    I mean, I haven't looked much into it so I'm not sure, but have SquareEnix/Psyonix any experience at developing competitive multiplayer games?

    Oh and by the way your numbers are incorrect, Tomb Raider has passed 4 million copies some time ago (and I remember hearing 5 but I can't find that source right now).

  18. #18
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    @ LordScythican – I know how you feel Simon is legend – but if it makes you feel any better he did say he’d love to do another game!
    I would like a lot more nods to previous games also…let’s hope.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Dagren
    Guys, I can't agree here. When have action adventure games become niche? They're not! Darksiders, the new Castlevania, Tomb Raider 2013 (even if SquareEnix won't admit it because they have completely unrealistic expectations) and a bunch of indie titles (Bastion, off the top of my head) have a really good market for them and were very successful!
    She said LoK, not action-adventure games, which are another discussion. Thing is, a sequel has this giant impenetrable barrier called "explaining what the hell happened so far" that new players will find cumbersome to wade through. We're talking about hours of research, at minimum, just to understand the story. It's not something someone can casually pick up and play, hence the niche comment. We are the niche; the longtime fans of the series that have been with it since the beginning.

    I didn't like Dead Sun btw. The premise and the idea behind it were both dumb and uninspired, and it's not the future of Nosgoth that I was envisioning. The idea that it "dealt with religion" was just a promise and there was nothing to go by to give it credibility that it actually explored that theme in a deep enough way.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Le_Don
    But they aren't the only people who can make great games, and it hasn't to be an exact copy of the old games.
    Absolutely, and thus we have Nosgoth.

    It's not what anybody had in mind but it doesn't make it a bad game. I completely welcome more Nosgoth games and hope that this won't be the last. All I'm saying is perhaps Kain's personal story should be laid to rest.

  21. #21
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    Originally Posted by 88chaz88
    Absolutely, and thus we have Nosgoth.
    Please quote the full posting ->

    Originally Posted by Le_Don
    But they aren't the only people, who can make great games and it hasn't to be an exact copy of the old games. Changes are indeed very welcomed. I don't see why a new LoK has to be a complete recap of the old or a F2P online shooter. This is a very large spectrum .

  22. #22
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    Originally Posted by Rynfear
    She said LoK, not action-adventure games, which are another discussion. Thing is, a sequel has this giant impenetrable barrier called "explaining what the hell happened so far" that new players will find cumbersome to wade through. We're talking about hours of research, at minimum, just to understand the story. It's not something someone can casually pick up and play, hence the niche comment. We are the niche; the longtime fans of the series that have been with it since the beginning.
    Alright I'll quote myself: a post I wrote some time ago on eidos forums:

    read it there

    I don't understand all these people who say SE would need to reboot the franchise in order to bring newcomers into it.
    We finished Raziel's story arc with the last game. That was the part that would have been tough to explain to newcomers, had we had to finish it. But it is over and there is no need to explain it.
    At this point, what's important to know about the story? That Kain's been healed from his corruption thanks to his old lieutenant Raziel and that he needs to restore the Pillars, kill a God and deal with the Hyldens one way or another?
    It's not hard to explain that much in a new game. Want to know how he was healed? Go play the goddamn Raziel story arc (and you will if you enjoyed our new game!)

    I mean, there are a lot of games with a huge backstory. The thing is, you don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of it to enjoy the story that is presented in the game. You'll dig into the backstory if you enjoyed the story, not the other way around.

    As for characters being dead:
    1) That's not true.
    2) Introduce new characters. We are in a new arc of this story: imagine the possibilities... several compelling Hylden characters... humans, too (why not use the Priestess that was cut from Soul Reaver?). Not too hard, right? :P

    Rebooting stuff is just admitting we cannot be arsed to create something new and creative. But I suppose since every entertainment company does it these days people have come to accept it.

    ...

    Edit: Thinking about it, a reboot would be rather ironical for this game series. One of its strength is integrating and explaining a lot of rough story elements (I'm looking at you BO2) into the overall story. And we should thank Amy Hennig (and her crew) for that. Other companies/authors would just retcon the hell out of it. Reboot is just the biggest retcon of them all :P

  23. #23
    Originally Posted by Le_Don
    Please quote the full posting ->
    That's what I don't get, nobody says it has to be. It just is.

    Also the Legacy of Kain title was wisely dropped.

  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by 88chaz88
    That's what I don't get, nobody says it has to be. It just is.
    There is just a huge different between making some changes to a franchise and evaluate it or just making something complete unrelevant to it. Yea, LoK don't have to be an action adventure, so why not making a science fiction galaxy flight simulator or a Cyberpunk tetris game? Nobody says it can't be. Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but the next LoK is indeed a f2p online shooter, which is already a far stretch from the old games.

    And yes, they dropped the LoK titel, but for what different when they call it Nosgoth and trying to appeal to the LoK fans? Why not making it unrelevant to LoK, when the game itself is so great and why risking this whole heat? I mean I don't think nobody is realy surprise how the fans are reacting right now.

    It's funny how George said Dead Sun was the wrong game for the wrong time (if I remember right), but I guess Nosgoth would be more accepted besides a "real" LoK game and it was indeed just the multiplayert part of this "real" game.

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by Le_Don
    There is just a huge different between making some changes to a franchise and evaluate it or just making something complete unrelevant to it. Yea, LoK don't have to be an action adventure, so why not making a science fiction galaxy flight simulator or a Cyberpunk tetris game? Nobody says it can't be. Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but the next LoK is indeed a f2p online shooter, which is already a far stretch from the old games.
    Neither a cyberpunk tetris game or sci-fi flight sim would be representative of the universe that LoK is set in. A team based arena game of vampires vs humans with medieval/steampunk technology is.

    I know you weren't looking for an actual answer but there it is. Nosgoth may be a far departure mechanically, but lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.

    Originally Posted by Le_Don
    And yes, they dropped the LoK titel, but for what different when they call it Nosgoth and trying to appeal to the LoK fans? Why not making it unrelevant to LoK, when the game itself is so great and why risking this whole heat? I mean I don't think nobody is realy surprise how the fans are reacting right now.
    You just hit on a good point. Why risk taking this heat when you're not even going to use the LoK title? We can't really use the excuse of the publisher/developer milking the fans, else the title would be shouted from the rooftops. Maybe the answer is honest. The devs could legitimately be fans of the series but just don't feel they could do LoK justice with an adventure game, instead they stuck with what they know and created a game using the license but made it a spin-off instead.

    It's not what we wanted, but why should that stop them?

    Also, hopefully this could pave the way to another Nosgoth game more similar to the old adventure games.

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