Thread: We're taking this whole thing too seriously.

We're taking this whole thing too seriously.

  1. #26
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    lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.
    Because it doesn't even use any aspects of the LoK games, at all?
    Take a Super Mario Game without any Super Mario characters. No Luigi, Peach, Bowser and call it a "Super Mario game" simply because you play as one of the bad mushrooms and the gameplay is to walk around the pixels. Hey, it fits the lore, no? Seriously, such argumentation makes me speechless sometimes.
    Such an argument is also futile "It fits because it was never filled" doesn't compensate for the fact that it's tremendously different from the narrative story-driven gameplay as would the walking on pixels be tremendously different from the platformer such as Mario is.

  2. #27
    Originally Posted by Dagren
    I'm sorry, but are you out of your mind? How do you make 2 million+ copies a commercial failure?
    The thing is, there is only one WoW and one LoL, but for how many failed attempts at copying them? While there is a market out there (god, 2million+ copies sold!!!) for action adventure games, especially when you have teams that are experienced at developing such titles.

    I mean, I haven't looked much into it so I'm not sure, but have SquareEnix/Psyonix any experience at developing competitive multiplayer games?

    Oh and by the way your numbers are incorrect, Tomb Raider has passed 4 million copies some time ago (and I remember hearing 5 but I can't find that source right now).
    It is not that I disagree with you. I am not the one saying 2 million+ copies is a failure. That is what a developer believes to be a failure. Look at it like a TV show. A show that gets 1-3 million viewers per week is considered a failure. Many really good shows that were considered a niche TV show were canceled because they merely had a few million viewers. Where as TV shows that have 25 million+ viewers per week are considered a success and will warrant addition money to make bigger and better episodes. Rubicon on A&E had a little over 1 million viewers per week and was canceled, whereas The Walking Dead season one has close to 6 million viewers. Rubicon a way better show was considered a failure and canceled. The Walking Dead was a success and was given more money that has brought the show to getting close to 12 million viewers per week.

    As for numbers being wrong sorry. I was using VGchartz and only looked at the xbox 360 sells. I left out the PS3. But you are right, it went over 4 million which in my opinion puts the game closer to a safe zone to warrent more development. However, I believe that this is mainly due to the multiplayer aspect of the game. If it didn't have MP I bet the game wouldn't have sold more than 2 million, which like I said before is considered a commercial failure. The same goes for games like Mass Effect 3 and Uncharted 3. Multiplayer sells games and it is getting to the point where what we want in a game is going the way of the dodo.

    I don't like it. I really don't but I am not fighting it anymore. A 2 million+ unit sold game is not worth the effort to many game developers.
    Last edited by AkiraEverhate; 26th Sep 2013 at 15:15.

  3. #28
    Originally Posted by MrMilky
    Because it doesn't even use any aspects of the LoK games, at all?
    Other than the setting and lore which fits a lot better than Blood Omen 2 ever did.

    Stop making it seem like gameplay mechanics are the only thing that matters. If they are then I could find tons of Legacy of Kain games for you. Nintendo practically fart them out each generation, they call them Legend of Zelda.

    Originally Posted by MrMilky
    Take a Super Mario Game without any Super Mario characters. No Luigi, Peach, Bowser and call it a "Super Mario game" simply because you play as one of the bad mushrooms and the gameplay is to walk around the pixels. Hey, it fits the lore, no? Seriously, such argumentation makes me speechless sometimes.
    What? How on Earth do you consider this a good comparison or argument? For one, let me stress this for you, the game is called Nosgoth. There is no Legacy of Kain title here. You cannot compare it to a Super Mario game without Mario because Mario's name is in the title. If he was completely absent, the title would be a misnomer. You can't make the same argument for Nosgoth, it's set in Nosgoth.

    Also there's been "Mario" games that have been completely different from the mechanics of the original. Lots of them. From Super Mario Kart to Luigi's Mansion. Why can't the world of Nosgoth get the same kind of treatment? Does every game set in the world have to be an adventure game?

  4. #29
    If we stop raging for a second and think of it differently, this game becomes a wealth of new opportunity: Nosgoth is a world with inhabitants other then the cast of the Legacy of Kain series. SR2 and Defiance were little neculous stories based on what Raziel, Kain and Co did, but BO1, SR1, and even BO2 gave us a glimpse of that.

    I can't have been the only one running around in SR1 and wondering how the Human Citadel really operated, or eves dropped on characters having a conversation in BO2. This is a world rife with other stories to tell; just a quick run through of BO1 tells us that. There are characters, secrets, cults, wars, and loads of other things to explore. Why should we hate so much on a game that begins to capitalize on that fact?

    Maybe this game will satisfy our lust for blood the same way watching Kain munch on Sarafan did in Defiance, while maybe the next game set in the universe will satisfy our lust for story telling. Who knows? Maybe there'll be one about Vorador next. Why are we all so negative about something we love being resurrected?

  5. #30
    Originally Posted by YourWaywardDestiny
    This is a world rife with other stories to tell; just a quick run through of BO1 tells us that. There are characters, secrets, cults, wars, and loads of other things to explore. Why should we hate so much on a game that begins to capitalize on that fact?
    Thats the reason for the negativity. How does a team vs team mmo allow us to experience said stories? Its not like it has hope for solar profits (what has? The video game market is effectively a dry tomb) so this idea that Nosgoth will pave the way with gold for a better, more story focused game is kind of hard to believe.

    Damn, its not like you need a game to make a good game. You need to make a good game. If its good, new fans will come anyway. This talk of Nosgoth putting the IP back on the map is ludicrous. Those who care about it never 'left' in the first place, those who will come to care about it in the future will only do so if there is in-line quality to have and enjoy.

    Oh man I cant wait. Remember when Fallout 3< people rant about how the old games are , worthless and look terrible? Here we go again.

  6. #31
    Originally Posted by YourWaywardDestiny
    This is a world rife with other stories to tell; just a quick run through of BO1 tells us that. There are characters, secrets, cults, wars, and loads of other things to explore. Why should we hate so much on a game that begins to capitalize on that fact?
    Thats the reason for the negativity. How does a team vs team mmo allow us to experience said stories? Its not like it has hope for solar profits (what has? The video game market is effectively a dry tomb) so this idea that Nosgoth will pave the way with gold for a better, more story focused game is kind of hard to believe.

    Damn, its not like you need a game to make a good game. You need to make a good game. If its good, new fans will come anyway. This talk of Nosgoth putting the IP back on the map is ludicrous. Those who care about it never 'left' in the first place, those who will come to care about it in the future will only do so if there is in-line quality to have and enjoy.

    Oh man I cant wait. Remember when Fallout 3< people rant about how the old games are , worthless and look terrible? Here we go again.

  7. #32
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    All I say to my friends and people who read my blog is:

    Give Nosgoth a try. Don't close the doors to Nosgoth. They are complaining so much before playing it.
    I know that George and all the teams on Square-Enix and Psyonix are working hard to create a great game. It's their job.

  8. #33
    Originally Posted by The_Reaver
    All I say to my friends and people who read my blog is:

    Give Nosgoth a try. Don't close the doors to Nosgoth. They are complaining so much before playing it.
    I know that George and all the teams on Square-Enix and Psyonix are working hard to create a great game. It's their job.
    Its the job of every game developer, its the base minimum they have to do.

    And yet we're not exactly drowning in blockbusting opuses of excellence now are we? (Not talking about Enix, but in general)

  9. #34
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    Originally Posted by 88chaz88
    Neither a cyberpunk tetris game or sci-fi flight sim would be representative of the universe that LoK is set in. A team based arena game of vampires vs humans with medieval/steampunk technology is.

    I know you weren't looking for an actual answer but there it is. Nosgoth may be a far departure mechanically, but lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.
    Well, it would fit the LoK universe, if you would name one space ship Raziel and another one Kain. Then you can sell it as a re-imagination or a re-interpretation of the LoK universe. It's not that hard to make some connections to the series and with that in mind you can sell anything related to LoK. I think this is pretty much happening with Nosgoth.

    I do believe that the developers are indeed huge fans of the franchise and I won't forbid them to make this game at all (well, not that I could ). But I really wonder if this whole concept isn't just an awful idea to begin with.


    Originally Posted by 88chaz88
    Also, hopefully this could pave the way to another Nosgoth game more similar to the old adventure games.
    Not this argument again. First of it's just cheap to lure people into buying and playing a game, they might not be interested in, just because maybe there could be a new game of the franchise, these people care so much. I'm personally not interested for Nosgoth itself and I don't see why I should support a F2P online shooter, which would make this online shooter bigger and could even lead to a Nosgoth 2, but not in a LoK. Maybe you are getting a new LoK, but maybe not or maybe more of what you don't want. Right now I have the impression, that it might help the franchise more by not supporting the game and instead make a clear and loud shout of what you want - but I don't want dictate other people, what they should do and if you want to have fun with Nosgoth, please do that!

  10. #35
    Originally Posted by Blackykun
    Thats the reason for the negativity. How does a team vs team mmo allow us to experience said stories? Its not like it has hope for solar profits (what has? The video game market is effectively a dry tomb) so this idea that Nosgoth will pave the way with gold for a better, more story focused game is kind of hard to believe.

    Damn, its not like you need a game to make a good game. You need to make a good game. If its good, new fans will come anyway. This talk of Nosgoth putting the IP back on the map is ludicrous. Those who care about it never 'left' in the first place, those who will come to care about it in the future will only do so if there is in-line quality to have and enjoy.

    Oh man I cant wait. Remember when Fallout 3< people rant about how the old games are , worthless and look terrible? Here we go again.
    We don't know what kind of story element we're going to be dealing with. As of yet, the viciousness of combat for the father series, LOK, was a tad... Lacking. And that's just sad for a game about blood-thirsty vampires. Tapping into the truly visceral isn't a bad thing, here. The story of good old-fashioned death and decay and war and awfulness. An MMO gives us the scope of the conflict. What better to explain how Nosgoth became so utterly ravaged then by a massively multiplier online game?

    See, this is what I mean. The stories in Nosgoth aren't always going to be as flowery or dramatic as Raziel's or as fate-rendering as Kain's. Sometimes we just need to be reminded this isn't an Ann Rice novel. This is Nosgoth, and all we need to know about our Lady Nosgoth is declared in the opening of Blood Omen. "There is a magical operation of maximum importance: the initiation of a new aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a word, the whole world must be bathed in blood." So why can't we just happily bathe Nosgoth in blood for a while?

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by YourWaywardDestiny
    We don't know what kind of story element we're going to be dealing with.
    Completely right, also irrelevant because the real question is what kind of story can there be in a f2p arena based MMO shooter?

    L4D isnt exactly a masterpiece of literature. And I get it, Nosgoth isnt LoK, but why dig out an IP that is famous for its narrative, story and acting... And then absolutely not give a damn about it? You cant even develop any attachment to the characters like in say TF2.

    flowery or dramatic as Raziel
    Which starts with being thrown into a lake of acid. How flowery indeed.

  12. #37
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    Originally Posted by 88chaz88

    What? How on Earth do you consider this a good comparison or argument?
    It's ok if you don't see the comparison. I've had discussion with worse. The real question is what you make out of it so let's see

    For one, let me stress this for you, the game is called Nosgoth.
    Mr. obvious. Also another obvious thing, no, you don't play any strategic sim game. You play a PvP set in a very small timeline, obviously chosen because of the resources which were a leftover from a much bigger project. So don't go blind on the fact that this isn't what people expect from the LoK title. You don't PLAY entire Nosgoth. You don't have entire history at disposal. Nothing. It's like naming a game "UNIVERSE" and then all that you play is a small solar system. So give me a break with such argumentation.
    It's like having Tomb Raider without Lara Croft, but set in the same universe and instead to play what's essential for what Tomb Raider games are famous for, you play FOOTBALL. Yeah, it's that bad. You're obviously not that of a gamer to really tell the difference so I'll leave it at that.

    There is no Legacy of Kain title here.
    And remind me why is that a good thing? You're a riot!

    You cannot compare it to a Super Mario game without Mario
    Yes I can and I did and it's obvious that it's effective since you got the point even while you're completely forgetting that your argumentation is bluntly put : futile.

    Also there's been "Mario" games that have been completely different from the mechanics of the original.
    And tell me how you've played them all and you think of them as something that's completely solid. They made a game out of a plumber, a star, mushrooms and a typical princess stereotype, but these devs can't make a proper sequel by hiring Simon Templeman or Amy?
    Do you realize why all the arguments fail in comparison when a simple question is asked :
    "Why this game" And the CM states "Because we want so and we think it's fun"? Now THAT is a lack of argument, not what you accuse me for.

    Why can't the world of Nosgoth get the same kind of treatment? Does every game set in the world have to be an adventure game?
    Oh, oh, I'm sorry? Were there bazillion of LoK games as of lately? Did anyone, even remotely, think or believe that a PvP arena is a solid choice for a rich narrative story-based game?
    There was clearly NO support nor even a talk with dedicated fanbase for where the game should go. Nothing. It was taken just like that "As a game" and nothing more. So, if you want to play "just a game", be my guest and play Nosgoth. Nobody's stopping you. But if you want to tell me that this is on the same parallel as LoK titles, pal, you have a long way to learn what's art.

    So let's go back to this idiocy :

    lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.
    "LORE" - In Nosgoth, the game, terms it is the description. Change the "LORE" at the top into "DESCRIPTION" and of you go.
    Last edited by MrMilky; 26th Sep 2013 at 17:01.

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by Dagren
    Alright I'll quote myself: a post I wrote some time ago on eidos forums:

    read it there
    I disagree with the post you wrote. There are still 2 Blood Omen games and half of Defiance which still involve Kain, nevermind his indirect involvement in the entire series. Take a game like the 2004 Dark Prophecy (I think it was called) that would have old Kain assaulting Hylden fortresses and helping the younger him deal with time shenanigans. Raziel is an integral part of the series, but even if you handwave him off with a short explanation you still have the Pillars, the Elder God, the Hylden, the Ancient Vampires, Future Nosgoth and all the lore surrounding them.

  14. #39
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    Originally Posted by Rynfear
    I disagree with the post you wrote. There are still 2 Blood Omen games and half of Defiance which still involve Kain, nevermind his indirect involvement in the entire series. Take a game like the 2004 Dark Prophecy (I think it was called) that would have old Kain assaulting Hylden fortresses and helping the younger him deal with time shenanigans. Raziel is an integral part of the series, but even if you handwave him off with a short explanation you still have the Pillars, the Elder God, the Hylden, the Ancient Vampires, Future Nosgoth and all the lore surrounding them.
    So, the Blood Omen games involve Kain. But what is there to know? that the Pillars were created by the Ancient Vampires to lock away their enemy race? That each Pillar has a guardian and that since Vampires can't give birth humans came to inherit the Pillars? That the enemy race plotted and made the Pillars corrupt, condemning the land to decay? That Kain was supposed to be the Balance Guardian and he was corrupted from birth but turned into a Vampire in a desperate attempt to match an ancient prophecy and restore the Pillars and the world? That after having been manipulated by the enemy race and the ancient Vampire god who all want him dead he said f*** you to the world and decided to rule over its decaying corpse? That he eventually found a way to restore himself?

    I'm sorry, but I've had games with manuals full of backstories far more complicated than that. The story in the game, if presented correctly can be interesting to a newcomer, who hopefully has a functioning brain and can place things together. If there is a point he's curious about (and yes it shouldn't prevent him from understanding the overall story presented in the game), he'll go to a wiki or check out the older games. Heck it's how I entered into a lot of game series, LoK included.

    There are other games, and successful ones at that, that had this "problem". I mean you can enjoy Starcraft 2's story even if you haven't played the first installement. And the two games are a decade appart.

    I think people thinking it's impossible to make a continuation of the story just underestimate people's deductive and cognitive abilities. The Pillars, the Elder God, the Hylden are original, yes, but they still follow recognizable tropes that a normal person could still piece together.
    These people are also forgetting that a part of the market just enjoy digging into the lore of a game and put more value into the story of a game than its gameplay.

    So I'll state the important part of my previous post again:
    "You don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of it to enjoy the story that is presented in the game. You'll dig into the backstory if you enjoyed the story, not the other way around."

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by Limed00d
    Honestly, I was a bit disappointed when this was first announced. I too wanted a conclusion to the Legacy of Kain-epic, after the massive cliffhanger from Defiance. When I saw the trailer, I thought to myself "Man, this takes a huge dump of feces on the lore, what is the Razielim doing here, why is this even a thing". But I've been thinking about it and I can say now it doesn't seem that bad.

    The negativity comes from the fact that people always wanted what I want too; a true Legacy of Kain sequel. What we got was something completely different. People hate changes. But we, the fans, are taking this too hard. I've seen a lot of posts on this and other forums that had the same opinion on the game as I had yesterday. We should stay positive, or at least neutral to this game. I've seen people slamming the developers and the game for not being consistent with the other installments in Legacy of Kain. Thing is, Legacy of Kain has never been consistent with itself.
    We've seen a LOT of retcons take place in order for the story to progress up to Defiance. Besides, the game might not be canon, just like how most of World of Warcraft isn't canon to Warcraft. The gameplay looks nice and the characters look nice (although the Dumahim and the Turelim doesn't look like their SR1 counterparts).

    What I'm saying is, relax. Take a step back and look at it from a different perspective. If you still don't like it, that's completely okay. Just remember that the Legacy of Kain-series aren't dead because of one multiplayer spin-off
    Completely agreed with what you said. I was also disappointed to see a Legacy of Kain TPS game. But hey! This is a non canon spin off after all. There is no need to worry about it. Let's just enjoy it.

  16. #41
    Am I the only one that thinks the war and the gameplay itself is the story? It's kinda of short sighted to think that there's just absolutely no way for a story to be told in a game like Nosgoth.
    It wasn't what I was expecting, but I think it looks like fun, and I'm going to trust the good people bringing us this game to know what they're doing.

  17. #42
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    I bet most of you aren't in the group on facebook "A new Legacy of kain Game - Please Square Enix!" but there the people are all very exited about this game. It won't be a classic game, but it's ideal for recruiting new fans to the series, so maybe the later idea of having a reboot or a new game becomes more rentable.

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by ZeroFernir
    I bet most of you aren't in the group on facebook "A new Legacy of kain Game - Please Square Enix!" but there the people are all very exited about this game. It won't be a classic game, but it's ideal for recruiting new fans to the series, so maybe the later idea of having a reboot or a new game becomes more rentable.
    Must be the innocent people who haven't had the chance to play the original LoK games. And na, I stay away from those kind of groups. Youtube, steam and ign are my preference when it comes to information related to gaming.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by TonyRex
    Youtube, steam and ign are my preference when it comes to information related to gaming.
    Youtube.....Youtube
    Youtube is one of the actual worst places I can think of to get game information. Most people posting videos are probably fine, but the comments are enough to make the video not even worth it. And I don't appreciate the implication that someone can't be a long time fan of LOK and still be excited for Nosgoth. It smacks of the beginning of a flame war.
    Could we not have that here? Thanks.

  20. #45
    I can break down whats in my opinion the source of my disappointment and concern, and this is more than likely shared by a lot of you who are long-term fans of the series, and perhaps this will help shed some light on the situation.
    ___________________________
    A decade has passed since the last game left us with a hopeful cliffhanger, despite what amounted in the eyes of the industry was an average game, we the fans were looking forward to what would likely be the end of the story in a release that was sunk 6 months into conceptualization and development. Most of the community didn't hear much if anything about it until much later, and the amount of material is staggering, driving it home especially with the reasoning why the publisher axed it, theres a degree of both soured attitudes and lack of faith, that theres going to be a continuation. As years have passed we've discovered another game that was axed which was "Dead Sun" which was going to be a spin-off, some-how it was to have a connection with the games in the mythos and was poised to hopefully be a spring-board for a resurrection of this beloved franchise. That game too was axed and this FTP game so far it appears, is in names and vague mythos outlines only, is trying to attach itself to the series. Digging into the background of "Dead Sun" its obvious that Nosgoth was meant to be a multiplayer component WHICH IS FINE, but why is it that a story in it's entirety has be axed in favor a Vampires VS Humans --- Tribes FTP game addition that wasn't meant to stand on it's own? Does Square-Enix have problems placing faith in the fan-base when we've been hungry for something new for so long, and think that these tiny scraps will make the decade of wait and disappointment worth it?

    Taking this matter seriously is a by-product of the times when it comes to the gamer-community, without us there would be no gaming industry as it is today because in the end we feed into it.

    I feel some how that SquareEnix has forgotten a good deal about that.

    There are tons of websites dedicated to this franchise of(many of you are even contributors)archives of axed content, shrines to the mythos, all we're in the end asking is some faith placed in the truth that WE WANT A NEW GAME, and not something supplementary.

    In short : Square Enix, STOP CANCELING THE GAMES WITHOUT GIVING US A CHANCE TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE. You can't expect to get anything back from the community without giving us a chance to see whats developing, basing your judgments on PROJECTED figures does nothing but show you have no confidence that we care. If we don't take this seriously, then in the end our indifference will just bury the franchise in the grave of mediocrity and wasted opportunities.

    I would hate to think this new title is just a way to see how many people even care anymore about the series, rather than looking up the plethora of community driven sites and forums for a change. Recruiting new fans or not, this series deserve something better than cancellations and watered down spin-offs.

  21. #46
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    Yeah that 2.6M figure was way off - TR9 already surpassed 4 million copies just over a month ago.

    So it was a big commercial success. I personally don't care what a former SE CEO said on his way out...

    Originally Posted by 88chaz88
    Stop making it seem like gameplay mechanics are the only thing that matters. If they are then I could find tons of Legacy of Kain games for you. Nintendo practically fart them out each generation, they call them Legend of Zelda.
    Hey now, don't go dissing Zelda!

    Originally Posted by Le_Don
    Not this argument again. First of it's just cheap to lure people into buying and playing a game, they might not be interested in, just because maybe there could be a new game of the franchise, these people care so much. I'm personally not interested for Nosgoth itself and I don't see why I should support a F2P online shooter, which would make this online shooter bigger and could even lead to a Nosgoth 2, but not in a LoK. Maybe you are getting a new LoK, but maybe not or maybe more of what you don't want. Right now I have the impression, that it might help the franchise more by not supporting the game and instead make a clear and loud shout of what you want - but I don't want dictate other people, what they should do and if you want to have fun with Nosgoth, please do that!
    Well then don't support it if you're so cynical about it.

    Why are you still here then?

    Originally Posted by TonyRex
    Must be the innocent people who haven't had the chance to play the original LoK games. And na, I stay away from those kind of groups. Youtube, steam and ign are my preference when it comes to information related to gaming.
    Why would you stay away from a FB group that's set up for the sole purpose of getting another LOK game?

    Isn't wanting another LOK game the purpose why you are here right now?

    Originally Posted by Swagraven
    Youtube.....Youtube
    Youtube is one of the actual worst places I can think of to get game information. Most people posting videos are probably fine, but the comments are enough to make the video not even worth it. And I don't appreciate the implication that someone can't be a long time fan of LOK and still be excited for Nosgoth. It smacks of the beginning of a flame war.
    Could we not have that here? Thanks.
    THANK YOU.

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by Driber
    Hey now, don't go dissing Zelda!
    I'm not, I'm saying that mechanically the LoK series is Zelda. Seeing as I'm a big LoK fan I'd take it as a compliment to the Zelda series.

  23. #48
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    I never thought of the Lok Games as a zelda game =S
    I honestly thought and compared other puzzle games to Lok

    (click image to enlarge)

  24. #49
    Wow, people are WAY too critical of this game. With what we've seen so far this game seems to be far more respectful to the lore and setting than Blood Omen 2. It's trying something new and something that is interesting.

    Games complain that game publishers never try anything new and peoples reactions here are proof why. A lot of you are childishly refusing to try something new. Very little is known about the game yet you damn it. Why not let the game come out and judge it for what it is rather than what you wanted it to be?

  25. #50
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    Originally Posted by Rexidus
    Games complain that game publishers never try anything new and peoples reactions here are proof why. A lot of you are childishly refusing to try something new.
    I hate to make posts like that, but here goes:
    Indeed game publishers never try anything new: they are always giving us free to play arena games these days while some genres are left rotting in the dirt. Sure there are some cool ideas in Nosgoth, but that's hardly innovative.

    Originally Posted by Rexidus
    Why not let the game come out and judge it for what it is rather than what you wanted it to be?
    Fair enough. But as responsible consumers we have the right to let them know when we don't agree with what they are doing with the franchise. That said, as I stated before there is no need for the display of rage and hate and threats we're seeing in some parts, it only adds venom to the conversation.

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