Thread: The Razielim

The Razielim

  1. #26
    Even if some of Razielim survived, I'm not quite sure that they would devolve so fast. Also, I’m not convinced by the theory, that vampires share the link between parent and offspring. There wasn’t anything said about it in the game... Of course, they share similar traits, but it only indicates their membership to particular family/species.

  2. #27
    I suggested an explation over on the Eidos forums that the Razielim retreated to Dark Eden to escape persecution from the other clans. It would make sense that they would flee to the one place where even other vampires would fear to tread. It's a place I'd really like to see revisited and would make a great explanation for their faster devolution, since it mutates everything that lives there.

  3. #28
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    Since others have gone to the what we currently know, I'll also add points to clear up about this:

    This is set a couple of centuries after Raziel was Abyssed. Over the years, we've uncovered that Raziel is in the Abyss for 500 years before waking up and the events of ingame SR1 take place.

    So, there are still 300 years to go before that happens. The Razielim were being persecuted by the clans. Kain's left the empire to its own devices and the clans also have started infighting amongst themselves. The one thing rallying them all, including reluctantly the Razilim left, is the uprising of the humans.

    That all does fit with what we could imagine happened early on after Raziel is abyssed, or still before the halfway point. It wouldn't be like the Razielim would be instantly eradicated. It would take time, effort, and they wouldn't just submit for execution.


    I appreciate Vampmaster's thoughts on this, as I do think inherently that these Razielim appear too devolved. The flee to Dark Eden would be something tangible to explain why they're so grotesque.

    I do also think they look worse than they potentially are, due to that patchwork helmet and clothing that looks almost like flesh.

    The wings don't look right not being their bat-like wings and not attached lower on the body. And we need the claws and feet, and the ears. Other than that, the potential is there to fit within the universe.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 25th Sep 2013 at 21:09.

  4. #29
    I think it might be worth it to discuss exactly how evolutions of the Lieutenants effected their clans. We don't really know much more about it other than knowing they're directly related. We don't know to what extent, or how quickly it changes their offspring. In the description of the backstory given to the Legacy of Kain wiki, George Kelion says "...not long after Kain cast Raziel into the Abyss, Kain disappeared. Gone, in search of a way to restore Nosgoth to the world it was before, Kain left the world in the hands of his lieutenants." Meaning there would be a time where Kain wasn't even there to destroy the Razilim himself. They're not taking "What I have made, I can also destroy, child." at face value. At the LoK wiki they infer that the Razilim have become a subjugated race.
    Now, the question I have here is, is Raziel's descent into the Lake of the Dead causing the remnants of his clan to devolve more quickly, is the cruelty of the other clans forcing them into an evolutionary change without Raziel in order to survive, is it a combination of the two things, or is it neither?

  5. #30
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    Raziel states that Kain evolved first, then the clan leaders and their clans, inherent, follow. The corruption of Kain's soul is what lead to their faster devolution later on. The portion of his soul they have was supposed to be indicative of how far they'd fall into monstrosity, basically, with the less of Kain's gift received, the more monstrous and grotesque. However, they all become pretty monstrous. I think the Razielim would need some other explanation for their more ruined state. They should have wings, because a couple of centuries would be enough to inherit that trait, but they also should be more human-like.

    I keep noting this, but also Rahab shows he's evolving "before the master" in Kain when Raziel presents his wings in SR1's intro. You see his gill slits on the CGI model, so it would be most interesting to see how fishy the Razielim are at this point, heh.

  6. #31
    That's true, but we don't see how closely linked the clan is to Lieutenant. Basically, it's never really revealed whether or not the clan is being directly influenced by the Lieutenant or directly influenced by Kain's soul. Is it Kain's soul ruining them or the Lieutenant being ruined by Kain's soul?
    I also want to know how Rahab discovered he was immune to water? Did...did someone push him in one day? Why wouldn't they go on for centuries thinking Rahab just had weird embarrassing growths on the side of his neck? Maybe that's the official reason why Kain didn't really care that Rahab had something he didn't that he told the rest of the Lieutenants. He just looked at the side of Rahab's neck and went "gross, glad that's not happening to me." XD

  7. #32
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    I was wondering that too, Daniel Cabuco explained it like this:
    As for spare time, Rahabim would have been trying to overcome their weakness to water by trying to improve the time they could spend in contact with it. Perhaps drinking blood at the same time the water burned them so their systems could heal and slowly, painfully adapt. Melchiahim would be working to 'fix' their slowly rotting bodies, Zephonim would be learning the ways of wall crawling, Dumahim would be perfecting their weapon talents, and Turelim would would be learning how to hone their Telekenesis on poor captured souls. Razielim would use their spellcraft to spy on other clans, and manipulate them with a wry hand. I didn't have a count for the number of vampires in a clan, but there were hundreds, and they were not even in number. Melchaihim would outnumber Turelim 3 to 1, but as far as abilities go, that would make them even.

  8. #33
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    Originally Posted by Swagraven
    That's true, but we don't see how closely linked the clan is to Lieutenant. Basically, it's never really revealed whether or not the clan is being directly influenced by the Lieutenant or directly influenced by Kain's soul.
    I'm quite sure they're completely independent of the lieutenant after the original resurrection, or otherwise the Dumahim should not have continued to devolve into hideous rhino-lizard-things after Dumah's murder.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  9. #34
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    Originally Posted by Aeviternity
    I'm quite sure they're completely independent of the lieutenant after the original resurrection, or otherwise the Dumahim should not have continued to devolve into hideous rhino-lizard-things after Dumah's murder.
    To be completely specific, Dumah never really died, but he was trapped between two realms since his body wasn't dissolved or otherwise completely destroyed, as it is the only way to actually kill a Vampire in the material realm (He was impaled by three spears, impalement is a temporary solution to any vampire pest, people!). So, he wasn't really "dead", but in a "coma" induced by a tad too much chinese pin treatment.

    Therefore, it's quite possible that the clans truly are dependable on their sire, but I like to think that you're right.
    Last edited by Limed00d; 25th Sep 2013 at 22:16.
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  10. #35
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    Originally Posted by Aeviternity
    I'm quite sure they're completely independent of the lieutenant after the original resurrection, or otherwise the Dumahim should not have continued to devolve into hideous rhino-lizard-things after Dumah's murder.
    Technically Dumah didn't die, his soul still lingered around his trapped body, if they are indeed linked to their Lt's souls, his one was still around to maintain that link, and so was Raziel's. However, Turel was whisked away to another time. So who knows.

  11. #36
    And this is why I think just a discussion of how the evolution of the clans happens is pretty damn important. Nosgoth will hopefully explain a thing or two about it. It's not really that clear.

  12. #37
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    We could put it like this then; if there is a persistent link between vampires and their sires, it's never been mentioned in the series to date. To me, Kain possesses the blood curse and Nupraptor's curse, and passes these on to his sons, who in turn pass them to theirs. In my estimation, those ailments from Kain's soul are the only ongoing sources of their evolution and devolution, not Kain's soul itself, or anybody else's soul. Otherwise Daniel might not have described the Razielim as "still doomed to devolution" post-Defiance.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by Aeviternity
    To me, Kain possesses the blood curse and Nupraptor's curse, and passes these on to his sons, who in turn pass them to theirs.
    It might be the same curse the ancients had due to Janos' heart being inside him, but I really hesitate to call Kain's vampirism the blood curse, just out of the principal of Kain being so drastically different than the ancients. Mortanius may have more to do with Kain's "curse" than the Heart of Darkness, we wouldn't know.

  14. #39
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    I would say it is wise to distinctify those two, like Aeviternity said - the blood curse comes from the Heart of Darkness, since it´s from a cursed vampire, but the Nupraptor´s curse is different, causing devolution in Kain´s offspring, until he got healed.

  15. #40
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    I subscribe to this for my definition of the blood curse.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  16. #41
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    Well, they are linked to their clan sires in that each clan's traits follow said sire. So, something of each Lieutenant's soul passed on within their offspring. Yes, they'll continue to devolve even after their sire has been "killed" in the material realm, but I guess as long as they still contain the leader's initial soul portion, or essence, they follow suit with their changes. For instance, All Dumahim are like their sire, perhaps a bit more devolved. Green lizard skin, heavy hide, large fangs, etc. Turelim all look very much like Turel before he went on all fours. Large ears, rodent-like face, advanced TK. All Rahabim are fish-like and spit water projectiles, have the same weakness to the sun. All Zephonim are bug-like; all Melchiahim are barely able to hold their rot and decay at bay.

    Now, of course, all Razielim evolve wings. If they were all just evolving/devolving independent, only getting changes from the corruption, then each clan member would suffer unique effects. We don't see that. Whatever their sire was to get, they will get. Kain is the unique beast, but these clan leaders' changes will follow into their offspring pretty faithfully.

  17. #42
    All I want to point out is that there are a few things here and there that aren't ever specifically stated, and that leaves mountains of different interpretations on various things. Depending on how Nosgoth explains it, there might be a very good reason for the Razilim looking the way they do. Personally, I wouldn't have made them as monstrous as they are, but we have to keep an open mind here. They've brought a lot of attention to lore to most other things so far, so we'll see.

  18. #43
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    Just putting in my input here but first we have to keep in mind that the whole point of the Legacy of Kain series was that Kain was creating paradoxes into the time stream. The Razielim can exist in any version of the time stream. Secondly, 500 years past after Raziel was thrown into the lake of the dead, in that time ALL the clans EVOLVED(not Devolved) into seperate species based on the blood of the lieutenants they spawned from (Rahabs clan gained immunity to water but increased vulnerability to sunlight). All clans however took on the nonhuman appearance. Even Vorador and Janos although being some of the first vampires recorded by human records have visible nonhuman traits(Janos' skin and Voradors skin and ears.) The only problem is due to Raziel being thrown into the abyss NO ONE knows how the Razielim would have actually looked as they evolved other than their wings.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by Janos7
    All clans however took on the nonhuman appearance. Even Vorador and Janos although being some of the first vampires recorded by human records have visible nonhuman traits(Janos' skin and Voradors skin and ears.)
    Murals in Defiance (specifically, the mural depicting the raising of the pillars to vanquish the Hylden, which would have been before they were cursed) indicate that the Ancient Vampires were always blue, and always had wings. The original curse by the Hylden only seemed to be bloodlust and immortality. It seems as though, as soon as the ancients started trying to pass vampirism on to humans that it changed those afflicted with it over time. So, interesting note here, it seems to only manifest change in a person if they are human.

  20. #45
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    If I´m not completely wrong The Pillars chose their guardians from birth, and since Vampires were no longer born, new subjects had to be created to sustain the Pillars. Humans were selected by Vampires to be given their dark gift and to serve the Pillars as vampires alongside their masters. The humans eventually rejected the gift and overthrew their superiors, claiming the Pillars for themselves.

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  21. #46
    That about sums it up, yeah.

  22. #47
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    Originally Posted by Swagraven
    That about sums it up, yeah.
    It just struck me out of the back of my head. Another thing the curse brought the Vampires was Sterility!
    Thats some mean to pull!

    Come on! Thats just low!

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  23. #48
    lol Well, the Hylden were being banished to a separate dimension. Can't blame them for being a little (really) spiteful.

  24. #49
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    One does not cause hindrence to a mans ability to procreate!

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  25. #50
    Originally Posted by MasterShuriko
    It just struck me out of the back of my head. Another thing the curse brought the Vampires was Sterility!
    Thats some mean to pull!

    Come on! Thats just low!
    Um... yeah... It took the Vampires out of the circle of life and death making their god abandon them. That's sort of the whole point of the blood curse.

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