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Thread: TR-LEGEND & TOBY GARD VS CORE

  1. #1

    Tr-legend & Toby Gard Vs Core

    Hmm..... (one eyebrow raised)

    I've recently read a few articles & comments about how Lara is returning to her roots(TR1)and how Core did this & that wrong with TR & Lara! How Toby Gard has returned like some kind of saviour for the Tomb Raider series. Also the age old boring debate on Lara's breasts!

    Why do Lara's breasts always have to be such an issue. She's a female character, she has breasts! What does it matter what size they are!

    She's also a very cool, intelligent strong character! Besides, a lead character, male or female, is always aimed to appeal to a certain audience or as many people as possible!

    Toby Gard created a truly great character, the blue print. However, after he left Core, Lara's character evoled over the course of 4 more games. Her outfits, vehicles & history ect...

    Lara is only as good as the games she's in, TR was a success because of the game too, the environments, tombs which Toby Gard didn't design!

    The Lara we know & love wouldn't be who she is without those other games, which Toby Gard wasn't a part of. TR gained a lot of fans from TRII & TRIII! In my opinion TR11 is one of the best!

    I'm pleased he's a part of the Legend team as he's the original character architect. But TR & Lara are what they are because of all that's happend in the series history. Afte rall without AOD we wouldn't have Legend! I think Legend could be the ultimate TR game!

    Oh, Legend Lara doesn't look like a drug addict!? I also think her breasts (sigh) look fine. I think it's an amazing job done! Evolving from cartoon-esque character to a very realistic character, yet keeping Lara recognisable.

    The Tr-series & Lara have come a long way to become TR-Legend.
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by kiss-bite
    ............... I think it's an amazing job done! Evolving from cartoon-esque character to a very realistic character, yet keeping Lara recognisable.

    Except when she climbs (jumps like Wyl E Coyote ) up onto a ledge..

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by dhama
    Except when she climbs (jumps like Wyl E Coyote ) up onto a ledge..
    But I like how she cimbs up ledges now ........................

  4. #4
    kiss-bite, I couldn't agree with you more

  5. #5

    Thumbs Down

    I feel that all the existing TR games, including AoD, have been essential contributions to the series and to Lara's character.

    It's a great shame that, having enjoyed the fruits of Core's labour for the last ten years, fans and critics alike are now uniting to criticise TRs 2-6 and dismiss them as not worth playing. One major gaming magazine recently described them as a "five-game streak of crimes against the videogame community," a comment that would be laughable if it weren't so nasty.

    Even Crystal Dynamics are weighing in. In one of the recent interviews, I read that one of the developers said that TRs 2-6 were "all the same" and that anyone who hadn't played them hadn't missed anything. Personally, I think that to knock the efforts of your predecessors in this way simply makes you look petty.

    It seems that most people are unable to discuss or promote Legend without slagging off previous games, especially the much-maligned AoD. I find this very disappointing. Gaming critics in particular seem to have very short memories. All the TR games other than AoD got very good reviews when they were first released, and seem to have been greatly enjoyed by fans also. Yet a few years down the line, the critics are turning round and ranting about how awful they were.

    If Legend really is that good, its quality should be self evident. As for Toby Gard, I'm sure he'll do his best but I don't think he's the godlike Lara guru that some people seem to portray him as. I understand that it was only Lara's physical appearance that he created, whereas her background and bio were written by other Core employees.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven

    If Legend really is that good, its quality should be self evident. As for Toby Gard, I'm sure he'll do his best but I don't think he's the godlike Lara guru that some people seem to portray him as. I understand that it was only Lara's physical appearance that he created, whereas her background and bio were written by other Core employees.
    I agree, the guy might have "created" Lara but he only created the character not the game. Also he abandoned Lara after the first game and hasn't helped her "grow". TR1 was only the bait on the hook for me, the rest of the games (which Toby Gard has had nothing to do with) are what have developed me into the die-hard Tomb Raider fan that I am now.

  7. #7
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    I think that TR1-4 were pretty much the same, except Lara got a few new moves in each game. TR5 was a little different, and AoD was very different. That's not meant as an insult, merely a statement of fact. I like TR1-3 a lot. TR4 dragged on, TR5 was a little strange, especially with Pierre and Larson alive again but I still liked it. I liked AoD as well, but not anywhere near as much as the first three games. Legend looks like it's going to be awesome. I'm sure it will stand on its own merit, not just because a lot of people are going out of their way to insult the previous games. As for Lara's physical appearance, in some of the previous games it was so unrealistic that it seemed laughable to me. I think she looks a lot more reasonable in Legend. The one-handed pull-up was a bit much, though. No one could be that strong

  8. #8
    Toby Gard's attitude towards TR1-5 and esspecially AOD somewhat suprises me in an unpleasant way.
    By the way, he is not the only who does that. A few other guys from CrystalD spoke in the same way.
    I think its not very smart to do that, they try to attract people to the game but at the same time they are, in a way, insulting everyone who played the previous games.
    I have a feeling they concentrate on people who lost faith in the series years ago (after the first game) and ignore all the people who played the five games onwards (and maybe also have their doubts but still remain positive about the series).
    I think TR7 should be a game that pleases the fans in the first place. If the graphics, controlls and gameplay are polished up to modern standars the rest of the gaming public will follow automaticly.

  9. #9
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    It's probably a calculated marketing move. Fans of the series will most likely buy the next game regardless of what they say, so they are trying to draw in people who didn't like the previous games. If they don't go too far and they manage to make more money because of whatever they are saying, then that means a better prospect for TR8 I haven't even heard any of this talk, really, since I've only watched the gameplay trailers and read a few reviews that someone here linked to, so I guess that's why it doesn't bother me

  10. #10
    I think its sad that Toby Gard just walks in on the scene after not being apart of the francise since the first developpment and suddenly its like he is going to fix everything.

    Altough her created her (and I respect him for that) I think he hasn't got the right to just walk in after abandoning her and saying that he is going to make it all better.

    And what makes it worse is that he is completely ignoring all the other games. I luv all of them and i think of them have a huge importance in Lara's history and to ignore them would be stupid.

  11. #11
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    He did not abandon Lara, he just did not like the way Eidos was marketing her.

  12. #12

    Timeline

    I'm under the impression that Legend is a continuation of TR1. I think this is a great idea too. It takes TR full-circle back to its origins. We learn more about how Lara became a tomb raider, which I think is an ideal premise for a new TR game at this point in the series. TR4 explored this part of Lara's history a little.

    But as I said before. The Tr-series & Lara have come a long way to become TR-Legend. Between TR1 & Legend the games are great. Full of great memorable levels, characters & events. Legend would not exist without these events despite the timeline. TR & Lara's success & the success Legend has, are & still is possible because of Cores continuation after TR1.

    Say if you only played TR1 & Legend (only the games with Toby Gard on board), a whole lot of fun & great gameplay would have been missed in between!
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  13. #13
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    Look at it this way--From TR2-4, the stories were pretty much independent. The only reference to previous games was that Lara's little museum had some familiar artifacts in it. It's not such a break from the series for Legend to have a completely independent storyline as well. They aren't discarding the newer games, they just aren't building upon them either, like those games did not really build upon each other. I think it has been confirmed that Lara's mansion will return. Maybe they'll have all of the familiar artifacts set up on display for us. That would be a nice way to subtly acknowledge the other games in the series without dwelling on them because, as far as I'm concerned, finished stories shouldn't be rewritten with each successive game.

  14. #14
    I've enjoyed all the TR games, including bonus levels and "gold" releases. Even AOD hasn't been a bad experience (so far ) because I waited to buy it after all the bugs had been fixed.

    I haven't been keeping up with the negative commentary about the earlier games, but all those critical folks should consider that, without TR2 through TR-AOD, we might not even be talking about a new Legend game. Those games are part of the journey that has brought us to this point in time. What would we have had to fill the void between TR1 and Legend?

    So, I think all the games have a rightful place in TR history. To be slagging off on them now smacks of a superiority complex. It's easy to be critical with the benefit of hindsight.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by WraithStar
    Look at it this way--From TR2-4, the stories were pretty much independent. The only reference to previous games was that Lara's little museum had some familiar artifacts in it. It's not such a break from the series for Legend to have a completely independent storyline as well. They aren't discarding the newer games, they just aren't building upon them either, like those games did not really build upon each other. I think it has been confirmed that Lara's mansion will return. Maybe they'll have all of the familiar artifacts set up on display for us. That would be a nice way to subtly acknowledge the other games in the series without dwelling on them because, as far as I'm concerned, finished stories shouldn't be rewritten with each successive game.
    You know, I actually don't have any inherent problem with Legend's storyline, I'm quite eager to see something of Lara's history re: the Himalayan plane crash and her first forays into raiding. The plane crash and its aftermath have become "legendary" in Tomb Raider continuity, and it'll be interesting to actually visit that period of Lara's life.

    But, as a big fan of AoD's storyline, I am disappointed that it won't be continued, when I think it was very intelligent and carefully researched. It was of course let down by the finished game which was only about half-completed, and missed out a lot of the story. What disappoints me in particular is that TRs 4-6 essentially formed a trilogy, which has now come to an abrupt and premature end with most of the major questions still unanswered-Kurtis' fate, the Nephilim, how Lara cleared her name of the Monstrum murders, what happened after she got buried in the Pyramid. Unless Crystal Dynamics decideds to pick up on this further down the line, it seems that we'll never know the answers. That leaves us with some major gaps in TR history and continuity, even while others are being filled by Legend.

    As I said before, though, my main gripe is with the way earlier TR games have become the whipping boy for the gaming community. And I still really disapprove of Crystal Dynamics making mean comments about them. It doesn't do anything for their image.

  16. #16
    Sorry, didn't have time to read all of the comments here, so I may be repeating, but I remember reading Toby's comments a long time ago (when TR2 came out), and he wasn't particularly happy with it even back then. He didn't state specifics, but he said he would have done things differently, and I have to agree that TR2 was a bit of a misdirection for the franchise. So I don't think he's just bashing 2-6 now as some kind of marketing ploy-- I think he was genuinely disappointed with the direction they took the series. True, he abandoned the series after the first game, but I don't think that means he's not entitled to express an opinion about the direction one of his creations took. (imagine if you wrote a story, and somebody else took the main character and started writing sequels, but didn't handle the character the way you felt he/she should be handled-- wouldn't you feel entitled to say something, even if you weren't interested in continuing the series yourself? I would.)

    Having said that, I did enjoy TR3 somewhat, and TR4 was great since they tried to recapture what made the series work in the first place (maybe they stayed more true to Toby's vision in that one?)

  17. #17
    "Toby Gard created a truly great character, the blue print. However, after he left Core, Lara's character evoled over the course of 4 more games... TR was a success because of the game too, the environments, tombs which Toby Gard didn't design!"


    Toby Gard is to Lara Croft what Steven Spielburg is to Indiana Jones. Spielberg imagined and created Indiana Jones and he is the only one who can truly DO an Indy movie. Have you ever read Indy fanfic? Most of it is awful because some writers are terribly unimaginative in their interpretation of Spielberg's creation -- not witty, it lacks the right tone and atmosphere, and a few priceless artifacts here and there are NOT Indiana Jones. Did Steven Spielberg personally design the tombs indy was in? No that was done by set decorators. Set decorators and costumers do not make Indiana Jones. Spielberg's personal VISION creates that one and only Indy, his enemies, dialogue, ironies and adventures.

    AOD was at best, a 3D Lara Croft fan fic gone terribly wrong. It was an interpretation of a character who had already been interpreted by people who were not the original inventor --- and it shows in the lack of direction and the utterly non-TR feel of the entire game. TR slowly started losing popularity after the sequel and the growing complaint that TR was 'getting old' with each subsequent game just goes to show what happens when others try to imitate a unique individual vision. From TR2 and onwards fans and critics had been complaining about too much emphasis on pushing blocks -- but Core, too proud to listen to their fans, actually forces people to push random blocks to 'gain strength' in AOD or else be stuck forever. Its beyond shameful --just unbelievable! Maybe that's part of the reason why CD has a suggestions thread.

    TR & Lara are what they are because of all that's happend in the series history. Afte rall without AOD we wouldn't have Legend!

    AOD was a monumental flop. Lara had been an international icon, now her reputation is in tatters and some people are embarrassed to admit they are TR fans...
    I believe pride stopped Core from asking Toby to come back years ago when they desperately needed him back. A sense of 'we don't need him, we can do a TR game just as well' ... then Chronicles and finally AOD happen, but did it really have to come to that??

    Even if Legend made not a single reference to any game after TR1 (this would be a great thing -- no Von Croy mystery murder melodrama), it could easily be the best in the series, and the true sequel that us longtime TR1 fans have been waiting for since 1997.
    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...hoto/fugly.gif
    ~Kudos to Crystal Dynamics for resurrecting a seemingly dead franchise, and Eidos for relieving Core of the duty~

  18. #18

    You have to go somewhere first before you can return to the start again!

    I have to say I think you give Toby Gard far too much credit. CD are responsible for Legend looking so impressive as a game. Toby Gard is responsible for Lara looking so impressive as a character !! Also, Steven Spielburg as a director has a creative vision & the people to assist him in creating that vision. A film, game ect.. Is a combination of many talents even if they don't get as much credit. Anyhow, I don't think you can say Toby Gard has the same creative power over Legend as Spielburg has over his film projects!

    Also I've not tried to dis-respect Toby Gard. Like I said he created a truly great character when he created Lara & I'm ever so impressed with the Lara in Legend! I had faith in CD as I'm a fan of the Legacy of Kain series, I know they can create great games! I just think all the TR games betwen TR1 & TRL are important to me & a lot of other fans! These games are what made TR grow & gain more & more fans after the success of the original.

    So XxxLaraxxX, you didn't enjoy TR2-5? Legend features vehicles & cities, outside environments & new moves because these elements expanded the TR-world. These features began from TR2 onwards. If TR2-5 hadn't made these expansions to the TR series & Lara was always underground, it would of been criticised! I love TR1 & I'm a longtime fan who has enjoyed most of Laras other adventures. Legend maybe taking Lara back to her roots but there woudn't be anything to take her back to without the other games.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Xxx_Lara_xxX

    Toby Gard is to Lara Croft what Steven Spielburg is to Indiana Jones. Spielberg imagined and created Indiana Jones and he is the only one who can truly DO an Indy movie.
    Actually, George Lucas created the Indiana Jones character, and then invited his friend Spielberg to direct the project.

    AOD was at best, a 3D Lara Croft fan fic gone terribly wrong. It was an interpretation of a character who had already been interpreted by people who were not the original inventor
    Again, you're giving Gard too much credit. I'm not trying to dismiss or downplay his considerable contribution to the TR universe, but he was not responsible for every aspect of Lara or the first TR game. You focus on the notion that Lara's character has been "reinterpreted" by people other than Gard-the fact is that he never fully created her character in the first place. He designed her physical appearance and gave her the briefest of backstories-the fact that she was British and upper-class-and then other Core employees like Vicky Arnold and Suzie Hamilton filled in her bio. and character.

    Computer and Video Games magazine UK ran a special edition for the release of AoD which included an extensive feature on the genesis of Tomb Raider. All the above info. is in there and Toby Gard himself is quoted as saying, "My initial background story for Lara Croft was extremely sketchy."

    --- and it shows in the lack of direction and the utterly non-TR feel of the entire game.

    I'd disagree that it feels non-TR. It's different, certainly, but at the end of the day you're still using Lara's wits and physical abilities to guide her around a varied series of often-hazardous environments in search of artifacts and the solution to a mystery. The fundamental gameplay is still the same.
    As for the lack of direction, I think you do have a point there, but what must be kept in mind at all time when judging AoD is that it was released half-finished due to Eidos wanting it to be released before the end of their financial year 2003-a good four months before it was originally scheduled. Not only that but several important members of the development team left during production, because of the intense pressure, meaning that entire sections of the game were never fully implemented, such as the role-playing element/strength upgrades. Admittedly these were worthless in the version of AoD we're playing, but that's not due to poor design.


    AOD was a monumental flop.
    Commercially, AoD did very well and was one of the top selling games of the year. Critically, the response was poor, but at the end of the day a critic's opinion is as subjective as anyone else's. And I repeat that AoD was only a shadow of what the original vision for it was, and that's why it deserves to be continued so that all the potential and hard work done on it originally won't go to waste.

    I believe pride stopped Core from asking Toby to come back years ago when they desperately needed him back. A sense of 'we don't need him, we can do a TR game just as well' ... then Chronicles and finally AOD happen, but did it really have to come to that??
    Toby wasn't booted out by Core, he chose to leave to start his own company (which was far from a success story) and he left shortly after TR1 was released, before it even really hit the big time. Had he wanted to stay and influence Lara further, he could have done so. He was apparently unhappy with the highly sexualised way in which Eidos were marketing Lara-I can see his point, but at the same time, he was the one who gave her the Penthouse proportions that actively encourage that kind of approach. Come on, you don't make a woman that curvy, that well-endowed, that sensuous, dress her in skin tight shorts and hotpants and then claim that you see her as being "demure and untouchable", as he once did.

    Even if Legend made not a single reference to any game after TR1 (this would be a great thing -- no Von Croy mystery murder melodrama), it could easily be the best in the series, and the true sequel that us longtime TR1 fans have been waiting for since 1997.
    I don't expect that Legend will make any reference to any subsquent TR games. This is not in itself a bad thing, but TR2 is the sequel to TR1, and always will be. It's one of the most popular of the series with the vast majority of fans, despite containing precious little in the way of actual tombs, and I think it's unwise of Crystal Dynamics to try to retroactively displace it.

  20. #20

    Good response Raven!

    Hey Raven, are you the same Raven as the Raven on TRC-forum? If so I haven't seen you there for a while?
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  21. #21
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    What I love about TR is the gameplay. I thought by employing Toby, Crystal were re-employing the very person who had conceived and created the ideas, levels and gameplay of TR1.

    If it isn't Toby then whoever that person is, the genius lies with them and I wish they'd employ them and put them in overall charge of the project.

    Like kiss-bite says, Lara is only as good as the game she's in. Doesn't matter how pretty or kick ass she looks, without good gameplay she's mere glittery tinsel on an empty box. For most people anyway. I know some people would enjoy simply staring at her for hours on end in different poses and so on. I'm not one of them.

  22. #22
    There is nothing that will convince me that AOD, a sub-par game on every level, was even remotely a success. If your yardstick of success is the extent to which hype brings in cash, then this is one reason why TR needed to be transferred to another group. As a longtime TR fan I bought my AOD copy on sale (it went into the dumpster bin pretty quickly here) and was so bored with the non-TR story and frustrated with the push-block strength upgrade and multiple death/reload/death/reload scenarios, the camera and control issues, I never even finished and when I tried to sell it on EBay I couldn't even get a dollar for it because no one else wanted it. No one would pay $1 which is about 1/2 pound. On the other hand, when I sold my old copies of TR1 -3 together it sold for $29, and those are old games
    Even Paramount attributed the Cradle of Life's failure to AOD, if I remember correctly

    TR1 is the series standout because it was original, full of surprises from start to finish, a great game with an involving story and revolutionary for its time. TR2 was very good but it didn't break any new ground, no one describes TR2 as being revolutionary. TR3 was clearly a rehash and things only got worse from there on. I think its fair to say that as graphics improved the games began sinking into mediocrity. I attribute this to a lack of clear direction and understanding of the character. The FMV's became sillier and less interesting, and Lara loses her upper class reserve and became a snappy, sarcastic bimbo. Ie, in TR1 she is robbed and faces a life or death struggle against her adversary, and chooses to risk death by diving off of a mountain into a river, in AOD she swan dives out of a flaming sewer. If this wasn't meant as a ludicrous caricature, then it is simply a pathetic attempt to mimic the original TR. Did someone forget to ask, why would an archaeologist, a titled aristocrat, be swimming in filthy fecal urine water from Paris toilets? Tombs are old, lonely and frightening, but urban sewer water is revolting. Would an archaeologist ever use explosives to blow a hole in the side of a museum? Would a passageway ever be located behind the Mona Lisa, one of the most priceless and guarded pieces of art in the world ? Why are rotting roman centurions from approx 400 BC, guarding a steam engine developed more than 1000 years later?

    The scale of the ineptitude in the last TR goes beyond anything I have seen in another game, except maybe The Thing. It was very sad to see and I truly believe that the root cause was a misunderstanding of who Lara was originally supposed to be. The original Lara was so iconic that even the Matrix stole the elevator cable-clipping scene for their movie which came out 2 years later (where neo and trinity shoot the elevator suspension cable to reach the rooftop)-- if it wasn't Toby, then whoever wrote the FMV scripts for TR1 needs to be brought back at any cost because those were by far the best action sequences of any TR game.

    Which is not to say that all other games were purely rubbish, the vehicles and changing outfits were nice additions. But the soul of TR was lost at some point, the gameplay began to feel stale and cliche, and Toby is the ideal person to restore TR's unique brand of surprises, atmosphere, gameplay and character.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Xxx_Lara_xxX
    ... the soul of TR was lost at some point, the gameplay began to feel stale and cliche, and Toby is the ideal person to restore TR's unique brand of surprises, atmosphere, gameplay and character.
    Mine words exactly .

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Xxx_Lara_xxX
    if it wasn't Toby, then whoever wrote the FMV scripts for TR1 needs to be brought back at any cost because those were by far the best action sequences of any TR game.
    While Toby Gard had the original concept and created Lara's character, it was Vicky Arnold who wrote the script - she also wrote the script for TR2 & TR3.

  25. #25

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan
    I know some people would enjoy simply staring at her for hours on end in different poses and so on.
    Well, I do actually play the games too. It's the adventure, the searching for the one secret way into an area, the exploring the vast landscapes that is the most rewarding. It's the finding of well hidden objects, switches, new areas, puzzling over how things ought to work, and using the character's abilities myself to advance, that make it a fun game for me. I like to play exciting characters in exotic locations, and enjoy stopping to smell the roses while I do it. We all enjoy different things about the games we play, and that's expected. Having begun computer gaming in the text adventure era (before that pen/paper), graphics became an added bonus to the adventure, not a replacement for it. I don't think there's anyone out there who plays a game just like I do, but I do know that a pretty character and surroundings count for something.

    Have a nice day. I'll be having one, gaming a pretty, exciting game.

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