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Thread: Vorador killed 6 Guardians. (or 7!??)

  1. #26
    It doesn't necessarily mean that Azimuth's predecessor knew of the Hylden or worshipped them, just that the dimension guardian summoned demons from the demon dimension.
    Yes, but why were they directly targeted at Raz?
    How was she able to summon demons at a creature she never even met?
    The only logical explaination is that she is working under hylden influence.

    Rabban, your explaination fits for the demons of SR2's future, but we are talking about the ones of the SR2 Sarafan era.

    I meant that he didn't have control over whether or not Ariel was killed, but I think he did manage to influence the circumstances in which the HL killed her in order to allow the Scion of Balance to take over for her.
    I think the best way to influence the way she died to create the scion of balance is to simply make it Ariel instead of Kain, and not throw thirty years down the drain. And this scenario is simply absurd, corupting, than destroying the pillars simply to create the scion of balance.

    I really don't think that the HL would physically possess Mortanius and risk destroying such a valuable pawn unless Mortanius had already refused to do what he was told.
    Morti wasn't that valuable, all gaurdians are expendable in the quest for freedom. And it's not like he couldn't get another necromancer if his plan to assasinate Ariel failed, cause pillar gaurdians grow back in thirty ought years. it's certainly how expendable planars are.
    "One dies, you get another." Major Samuel James

    Mortanius likely stole something of Moebius' to look into the future and managed to keep his knowledge from HL or else he never would have been allowed to follow through with his plans.
    Morti was even blinder than HL. HL clearly knew that he was soon going to inhabit Janos' body before Raziel had revived him.
    Possessed Mortanius
    This one grows weak. But we will soon have a stronger vessel. The long-awaited hour approaches - our release is at hand --
    Hylden Lord
    You pathetic creature - you haven't got a clue. The seduction of the Circle and possession of Mortanius; Ariel's murder; the corruption and collapse of the Pillars: all orchestrated as a prelude to this moment. We sought an incorruptible vessel, and you provided one. We required the blood of our ancient enemy, and you delivered Janos Audron - having first been lured to the Heart of Darkness. Best of all, you murdered the Scion of Balance to get it. We've already won.
    Morti didn't even know Kain was going to betray him.

  2. #27
    rabban Guest
    Yes, but why were they directly targeted at Raz?
    hmm...i don't think it was the other (male) dimension guardian either. all we know for sure is that someone was targeting raz with demons throughout the eras of sr2. the cenobites, the dimension guardians, the demons and the hylden were all middlemen for EG. we never saw humans call the demons in sr2 and the demons attacked the humans in sr2 as well and the hylden and the archons in lokd.

    the only people the demons were not interested in fighting were EG, the shades, wraiths(in sr2) and the cenobites. the demons in sr2 seemed to be on the same page as the hylden seeing as they both thought nosgoth was to be destroyed...and once raziel got near the sarafan stronghold the demons backed off...so maybe it was EG who controlled the demons in all of sr2.

    Raziel V.O.:
    These creatures, I suspected, were minions of the unseen forces that had hoped to control me. This was the tangible expression of their displeasure. These demons were unleashed as the penalty for my disobedience.

    that could be anybody lol but in sr2 kain says...

    Kain:
    Moebius is a puppet, Raziel - haven't you realized that yet?
    That's the sweetest irony in all of this - Nosgoth's 'great manipulator' is their plaything. But the ones pulling the strings haven't shown their faces, yet.


    it allways comes back to EG...if EG feeds off the strife in nosgoth and the demons will attack anything with in reach then i think the demons are controlled by EG more so then the hylden.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by soothsayer
    Listen to what the demons say...

    Now, to me it looks that Azimuth's predecessor is speaking through these demons.
    And what the demon's say mirror's that which the hylden say.
    So it looks like Azimuth's predessor was a hylden worshipper.
    :O

    Eh, I would say those demons are independant, came into nosgoth because the barrier was weak 300 years after Kain refused the sacrefice. They attacked Raziel, and finally followed him through a time portal or something or some sort of magic to 500 years before BO1.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by WraithStar
    Mortanius likely stole something of Moebius' to look into the future and managed to keep his knowledge from HL or else he never would have been allowed to follow through with his plans.
    I don`t think he stole something from Moebius. He was a smart guy and wasn`t like the other Guardians corrupting everything. He wanted the pillars to be restored and made Kain a vampire so he could kill the guardians and perhaps restore balance...then during BO1 he learns more about the Hylden.

  5. #30
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    Maybe Mortanius didn't steal anything from Moebius, mainly I was thinking of how Azimuth stole the time-streaming device, so I figured it was possible that Mortanius got knowledge of the future by similar means.

    Anyhow, I've been thinking this over since last night when, admittedly, I wasn't entirely coherent Assuming that HL had knowledge of the future and planned for Raziel to kill Kain and release Janos Audron, he must be looking at the new timeline after the end of SR2. If that is the case, I can't believe that he wouldn't know all about Elder Kain and the events of BO2. At the very least, he would know during BO2 that if he killed Kain then and there, that would mean that he couldn't have used Janos because Janos wouldn't be able to be revived. The only way it can be consistent is if HL is a complete moron, which doesn't seem to be the case, or if HL is planning something even bigger that takes place after BO2 and he didn't care if he died or not. That seems possible, especially since Kain was insistent that Janos not be revived even though he remembered that he won in the events of BO2. Still, I'm hesitant to say that the Hylden can see the future. Every reference to the future that they made could simply mean that they planned for things to happen, and finally things were going according to plan. They don't say that things happened as they foresaw, they say that they needed things to happen and managed to manipulate Raziel into doing what they needed.

    I think that the demons in SR2 are independent. I'm not sure how they got there, if they were summoned or managed to break through on their own.

    Once again, I'm *not* saying that Mortanius corrupted the pillars only to purify them. I think that by the time he realized how badly the pillars were corrupted, it was too late to stop HL. Instead, I think that Mortanius was able to influence a few details of HL's plans in order to ensure that the Scion would be created, and not just a new balance guardian. I don't think that Mortanius could just "make" the Scion out of Ariel. I think that the Pillars choose the Scion to be the first balance guardian that can handle it. In Defiance, the Hylden clearly expressed the desire to keep Mortanius alive long enough for their plans to be completed. That's why I don't think they'd possess Mortanius unless he was no longer cooperating with them.

  6. #31
    rabban Guest
    Eh, I would say those demons are independant, came into nosgoth because the barrier was weak 300 years after Kain refused the sacrefice.
    i'm not sure you mean 300 years after kain refused the sacrifice DMraider? i think your refering to the 500 years before kain's refusal.

    I don`t think he stole something from Moebius. He was a smart guy and wasn`t like the other Guardians corrupting everything.
    i agree with you to a certain extent DMraider. mort read the prophecies and in his derangement ploted to create kain...i think thats partially why the hylden allowed him to do what he did anyways.

    I can't believe that he wouldn't know all about Elder Kain and the events of BO2. At the very least, he would know during BO2 that if he killed Kain then and there, that would mean that he couldn't have used Janos because Janos wouldn't be able to be revived.
    kain defeated the hylden in bo2 but that does not fix the ability the hylden have of possession so i'd assume either something else must happen between bo2 and sr1 or the hylden are planning something else based on the fact that they have janos in the demon dimension. with the whole scion of balance thing we saw in lokd as well as the hylden ability to see into nosgoth's timestream i'd assume we probably have not seen the last of the prophecy's murals...

  7. #32
    HL clearly knew everything that was happening, up till the events of BO2.
    Sounds like he was only told what he needed to know for the scion to be created. I think that his source of futuristic intel is the seer (she is a seer after all) since she is hylden. Maybe when HL figured she was holding back, thats when he saw her as an enemy.

    I don't think the demons of the SR2 past were working independantly.
    At that point the binding was the strongest it had ever been, and I don't think fully formed blackfire demons could simply waltz across the binding on their own. The only being that could get them across is the sarafan plannar, who tactics in fighting Raziel with demons is identicel to Morti's tactics with reverents. I can't explain it any other way except that the sarafan planar was a hylden worshipper.

  8. #33
    Azimuth had the PTSD, she could have summoned them and then sent them back into time. (For what purpose, I cannot fathom.)

    I think that the Scion of Balance could have been any of the balance guardians. If Mort was in control of his faculties, he could've made Ariel into it, or her predecessor. (Though it seems strange to fix the problem before it exists.) Maybe I'm wrong and Nupraptor's corruption was a key ingredient in creating the Scion.

  9. #34
    rabban Guest
    I think...I think... we are ...thinking about this too much...the only thing CD or eidos said was that LOK would go into a very different direction next time...i don't know what that means but lets hope it starts a whole new storyline.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by soothsayer
    . I can't explain it any other way except that the sarafan planar was a hylden worshipper.
    Well u could say that but we know that its a weird explanation.

    I think the demons simply moved through time and followed Raziel.



    i'm not sure you mean 300 years after kain refused the sacrifice DMraider? i think your refering to the 500 years before kain's refusal.
    Rabben I mean the demons that appear and attack Raziel in SR2 when Raziel is sent 100-150 years in the future. (I said 300, I think that was my own imagination :P )

  11. #36
    rabban Guest
    Rabben I mean the demons that appear and attack Raziel in SR2 when Raziel is sent 100-150 years in the future. (I said 300, I think that was my own imagination :P )
    ah...well time runs funny in those pesky dimensions...
    Well u could say that but we know that its a weird explanation.

    I think the demons simply moved through time and followed Raziel.
    a exercise in futility

    the +100 demons of the future do yell "raziel!!!!" so they obviously were shocked to see him in the future. but the -500 demons of the past expected him. so i guess the +100 future demons did not know that raziel was going to survive in the past even though the demons from the -500 era know that raziel is trying to change his destiny which he did by not killing kain in the 0 era.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabban
    ah...well time runs funny in those pesky dimensions...


    a exercise in futility

    the +100 demons of the future do yell "raziel!!!!" so they obviously were shocked to see him in the future. but the -500 demons of the past expected him. so i guess the +100 future demons did not know that raziel was going to survive in the past even though the demons from the -500 era know that raziel is trying to change his destiny which he did by not killing kain in the 0 era.
    I never thought of that. I thought that they were expecting him in the damned Nosgoth, and that's why they yell his name. But it might make more sense that they thought that he only existed in the -500 time since he entered the sword at that point and should have been gone.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha
    But it might make more sense that they thought that he only existed in the -500 time since he entered the sword at that point and should have been gone.
    Yea but don`t u think the demons time travelled?

    I mean they attacked Raziel and later followed him back in time to attack him again.

  14. #39
    rabban Guest
    I never thought of that. I thought that they were expecting him in the damned Nosgoth, and that's why they yell his name.
    well i called it an exercise in futility because we will never know for sure...but if there is any indication that time flows in the demon dimension like it does in the material realm of nosgoth it's the fact that once kain returned to it the time that had passed seemed quite linear...i wish lok did not mix the chapters up like it did...it should have had all of raziel's chapters then all of kain's.

  15. #40
    i wish lok did not mix the chapters up like it did.
    Not me, I loved it. It's just great how wonderfully convoluted the series is.

  16. #41
    I wish they made the vampire citadel missions with Kain more interesting...

  17. #42
    Defiance overall had balanced out violence with puzzelsolving, they just had more violence with kain and more puzzels with Raz.

    I loved the citidel's desighn, great influence from Cube.
    "This room is... green. I wanna go back to the blue room." Kazan

  18. #43
    rabban Guest
    I wish they made the vampire citadel missions with Kain more interesting...
    yeah kain's missions for the most part involved going to the same places raziel did. he should have had tasks that did not involve the citadel...it's that cut and paste thing i mentioned earlier.

  19. #44
    well..i didnt particularly like either of them in the citadel...buti have to say that i liked raziel using the forges beter than Kain portal hoppong for the lightning emblem..

  20. #45
    Yes the "portal hopping" was not very cool...

    They didn`t had more violence with Kain. Would be cooler if they just had some more different enemies and a bigger citadel with maybe some vampire type who inhabited there or something...

  21. #46
    rabban Guest
    if you guys are talking about that super jump thing...i wish it was like the jump in bo2....you had the option of jumping anywhere you wanted too.

  22. #47
    a jump attack was funny

  23. #48
    rabban Guest
    sarafan guard#1:
    you here that?

    sarafan guard#2:
    sounds like something cutting thourgh the air.

    sarafan guard#3:
    who ever smelt it dealt it

    *kain lands on guard 3*

    kain:
    vampires don't fart!!

  24. #49
    lol...i also liked using Charm...I wish that Kain had had that in defiance instead of the bullying cutscenes...

    Kain:
    Tell me where moebius is and ill spare your life

    Guard:
    ....*gulp*

    Kain:
    quickly Now

    Guard:
    ...N-North tower

    Kain: WELL ILL DO IT ANYWAY *SNAP

  25. #50
    Uhm.. its Kain.. You honestly expected he would let that guard live?

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