View Poll Results: Should the "riflemen" be wearing green jackets?

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  • Yes! (It's historicaly correct)

    20 51.28%
  • Don't Care

    19 48.72%
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Thread: Big Mistake!

Big Mistake!

  1. #1
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    Mar 2005
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    Exclamation Big Mistake!

    Guys,

    What an excellant looking game! You've done a fine job and I am very much looking forward to playing it!

    BUT!...

    Your "Rifleman" unit in the British army is an extremely poor mistake that I desperatly hope you take the time to change before the game is released!

    Riflemen (otherwise known as Greenjackets) wore green uniforms and were armed with Baker Rifles, not muskets. Your rifleman has a red coat and a musket!

    To have Sir John Moore as one of the heroes of the British Army and not recognise the distinctive features of the light brigade (riflemen) he had a large part in forming is a grave error and shows an incredible lack of research in this unit.

    It is a mistake that the great majority will pick up on, mostly due to the increase in public awareness of this regiment and era given to us by the "Sharpe" series on TV.

    This message would be of no use if I did not point you in the right direction! So, take a look at www.95thrifles.com where a re-enactment group portraying the 95th Rifles in the UK has it spot on. They are very helpfull and would be delighted to have the opportunity to help you with your research.

    All the best, Adam.

  2. #2
    How could you tell the rifleman unit from the trailer?

    I guess it’s the fact they are not there that you raise?

    I agree with your comment and also hope they add green jacket riflemen.. who as you know at 200 paces a rifle shot, fired by a trained man, would kill the target - almost three times the range of a musket.

    However, the rifles took longer to load - a fact that put armies off using them hence there were very few riflemen.. which is why I guess they forgot them

  3. #3
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    First I'm assuming that you saw this by watching a trailer, those are from early development and for all we know it could be changed already.

    Second:

    Do you concern getting things historically correct as important? For example, many history buffs don’t like the standardisation of the Empire’s uniform colours. Will there be an option to display the Empire’s uniforms as how they really were in that time?

    FC: We’ve always been really concerned about being as accurate as possible. That’s why we have made a lot of research and worked with historian experts in this time period, to be sure we didn’t make outrageous errors. Though, we’re making a game, which means that the gameplay always comes first. Also, the game starts in 1789 but can end in 1840 (or even much later if there is no winner), so it was impossible for us to display the changes in uniforms for each army all over this time period, not mentioning the flags, borders, etc… without giving the player 3 full DVD to install and expending another two years working in the game. We saw on our forum a long debate between some history experts about the colour of the paint used on the English cannons wheels! It is sure some of them will not be pleased by the necessary adjustments we had to make to have a consistent and user friendly gameplay.


  4. #4
    p.s. i hope to mod this till it shines like it should... basicly the captain - general idea is CR - AP ! so that's going first. i could care less about 3 units i want 20! also skins are probly the most asy thing to mod, even a none moder could do it (you could) hope that builds some confidence.

  5. #5

    Look at you! Your Cool! (Not)

    Here
    Again
    Once More
    Use the search button. (Getting tired of this).
    http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian.../russiatxt.jpg
    Kutuzov: "As long as we have an army strong enough to fight we have a chance to win. I order Retreat."

  6. #6
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    Mar 2005
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    Exclamation Big Mistake! (...continued)

    I got the information from the web site, looking at the "War on Land" section on Great Britain.

    I totaly understand that you have to consider gameplay but bear in mind that the "rifles" were formed as an experimental corp in 1800 and when they eventually went into service as the "95th Rifles" they fought all the way through the peninsular as well as many other campaigns) without changing their uniform once! Its not that difficult to represent!

    All i'm saying is that it is a terrible overview to have the "rifles" in red armed with muskets! Its not like i'm picking on the number of buttons on his tunic! Its like giving the horses wheels instead of legs

    I realise that you have to generalise the units as it would be far to comlicated to get all of them in the game, and totally unneccesary! But you should understand that riflemen (the 95th) were the first and only regiment of rifles in the British army at that time, they marked an incrediblely dramatic turning point in British Military History. Their were Cavalry, Artillary, Infantry and Rifles! You should represent them as they were or not at all.

    Yes i am interested in history (most strategy gamers are), but I am not so fanatic that I would pick at every detail. I'm just making the effort to try and prevent you from making a mistake that will damage this games credibility.

    Again, if your looking for the correct way to represent a rifleman visit www.95thrifles.com, the information on the site would help you understand why it is such a recognisable unit.

    It is well worth changing as any one who knows anything about the Napoleonic Wars knows what a rifleman is and has an idea of what they look like.

    Thanks for the responce, hope to hear back again soon! Adam.

  7. #7
    Hopefully its already changed, we will find out when the demo is released. Which I think is about 1 week or something.

  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by HellAngel_666
    also skins are probly the most asy thing to mod, even a none moder could do it (you could) .
    Don't want to burst your buble but with Praetorians it couldn't be done untill the Lead Designer explained the file format in depth. That way the files could be deciphered etc.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by @m
    Don't want to burst your buble but with Praetorians it couldn't be done untill the Lead Designer explained the file format in depth. That way the files could be deciphered etc.
    egh... that stinks... every game i'v modded, skins was the first thing people changed... i'll just find a way to do it...

  10. #10
    hey, HellAngel. Do you know a good programme where I can use for modding? Like RTW and hopfully Imperial Glory.

  11. #11
    Each game needs a different file (de)coder, sqall. So don't expect that modding tools for RTW will work for IG as well.


    i'll just find a way to do it...
    That's a deal.

  12. #12
    the most EASIEST games i'v every modded were in freaking NOTEPAD!!!! i was freaking amazed and i loved it! lol akella you rule! modder friendly

  13. #13
    This is a big mistake????

    how do you know that in the game they fight whit muskests? did you see in the trailer ?

    And the green jacket ... if they put the rifleman whit the green jacket they have to put other units whit they real colours , and in the middle of a battle it can be a chaos .

    To me a big mistake it`s that don`t appears in the game the polish lancers , or that you can`t play whit a country (sp..n) that was more important that others countrys that you can change in the game .

    This mistakes, like the muskests, were imposible to correct . ( maybe in the games of the 2020 ) .

    Adam23: "But you should understand that riflemen (the 95th) were the first and only regiment of rifles in the British army at that time, they marked an incrediblely dramatic turning point in British Military History. Their were Cavalry, Artillary, Infantry and Rifles! You should represent them as they were or not at all."

    in the peninsular war a big part of the 95º rifleman were spanish . just anecdotic





    pd : http://www.95thrifles.com/95th-home/main/ ---> it´s very interesting
    Desmochar ingleses es cristiano menester---------- kill english it s cristian job.

  14. #14
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    Exclamation Big Mistake! (...continued)

    If you look at the picture on the website of a "rifleman" on the "War on Land" section on Great Britain you can see he is carrying a musket and wearing a redcoat

    Quite simply the rifleman should be in a green jacket becuase this is what he wore historically. You cant change history! You cant dress the french in pink tunics and floral summer skirts because it fits in with the game, its supposed to represent the history!

    As for chaos on the battlefied, I think most individuals can cope with more than just one colour code for their units, if anything it adds a bit of variety and makes the whole thing look more visually impressive.

    Yes it is true that a large part of the 95th were spanish (and indeed many other nationalities), the same scenario for many British units. Perhaps because it gave the men of Spain something to do after their own army ran away!

    Who knows, someone involved with the game may take note of all this sooner or later and tell us their view?

    Adam

  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by Adam23
    Who knows, someone involved with the game may take note of all this sooner or later and tell us their view?
    Adam
    Hmm I already posted their view, but maybe you missed it

    Do you concern getting things historically correct as important? For example, many history buffs don’t like the standardisation of the Empire’s uniform colours. Will there be an option to display the Empire’s uniforms as how they really were in that time?

    FC: We’ve always been really concerned about being as accurate as possible. That’s why we have made a lot of research and worked with historian experts in this time period, to be sure we didn’t make outrageous errors. Though, we’re making a game, which means that the gameplay always comes first. Also, the game starts in 1789 but can end in 1840 (or even much later if there is no winner), so it was impossible for us to display the changes in uniforms for each army all over this time period, not mentioning the flags, borders, etc… without giving the player 3 full DVD to install and expending another two years working in the game. We saw on our forum a long debate between some history experts about the colour of the paint used on the English cannons wheels! It is sure some of them will not be pleased by the necessary adjustments we had to make to have a consistent and user friendly gameplay.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    12

    Exclamation Big Mistake! (...continued)

    No, didnt miss that, I just don't think that is a good enough excuse for such a blindingly obvious mistake.

    Quote: We’ve always been really concerned about being as accurate as possible. That’s why we have made a lot of research and worked with historian experts in this time period, to be sure we didn’t make outrageous errors.

    Take a look at the web site, riflemen are in red coats (rather than green jackets) and are armed with muskets (rather than rifles). What "historian experts" have they been dealing with exactly!

    Again, having said that I think the rest of the game is really very good and I am looking forward to playing the demo!

    Adam

  17. #17
    I agree with you Adam, but we have to face it that they will not do any change regarding the green jackets.

    The British riflemen are far from the only obvious example of mistake regarding the uniforms.

    They made the French more or less as historical accurate as they could (except from the dragoons which they made blue!) and then they made the other nations the same way using the same 3D models and simply using a different color. The only exception to this is the black watch. The British line infantry look ok except for the French stylish shako.

    The Russian and Prussians are an exact copy of the French only different colors. Historically most Prussian units didn't even wear black uniforms!

    So taking this in consideration the green jackets is not the biggest problem unless you only care about the Brits.

    This is not a wargame that tend to appeal wargame grognards and history buffs so historical correct uniforms are not a priority for Pyro studios.

    However the graphics look good and sea battles are stunning. Hopefully the gameplay is good too.

    About the musket of the riflemen, one can only hope that they at least will behave like rifles.

    /Lars L.

  18. #18
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    Question Big Mistake! (...continued)

    Your right, as I have said throughout this discusion I am looking forward to what looks like a brilliant game! Can't wait till its released, perhaps they could patch some of the mistakes later?

    Does anyone know for sure when the demo will be out? I've seen a number of different opinions, most seem to think within the next week?

    Adam

  19. #19
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  20. #20
    Well i havent looked over the main website at the battle on land or whatever, but i can say the Bakers look close enough to muskets so that when you are playing the game im sure you won't notice any different.

    Having the rifles in green would be appreciated, but mainly only so i can find the group as quickly as possible. However im not worried about that mistake either, i tihnk there colour would be to big of a problem when its really only 3 companies that where the green.


    were there any other Rifle regiments or companies, then the 95th??

  21. #21
    Adam23: "Yes it is true that a large part of the 95th were spanish (and indeed many other nationalities), the same scenario for many British units. Perhaps because it gave the men of Spain something to do after their own army ran away"


    1º they recruit spanish because they haven´t got enought english soldiers to fight.
    2º dear adam , the spanish army never run away.
    Desmochar ingleses es cristiano menester---------- kill english it s cristian job.

  22. #22
    not during the napoleonic wars, although more rifle regiments were added later to the army. This may not be right but I belive that the English got the idea for Rifle companies from Inia, when they were up against them in the Sutan Tippoo's army. Anyone who has read the Sharpe books or films may well recognise this.

  23. #23
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    Smile Big Mistake! (...continued)

    FAO Templari: The 95th was the first rifle regiment in the British Army. All three battalions wore the green jackets. Their were other rifle units, namely the 5/60th and the Kings German Legion etc. Also, your right, the difference between a Baker rifle and a musket won't be recognisable in the game, so long as the range and accuracy are portrayed authentically it wont matter.

    FAO Blas-de-Lezo: The Spanish army retreated from the Battle of Talavera before it started because the sound of thier own volley frightened them. They were clearing their guns of damp powder from the previous evening. Just one example.

    Also, Spanish men were drafted into service but a regular draft of new recruits was continually coming from England.

    FAO sammobrownie: The idea for a rifle regiment came from British Army experiances in the War of Independance (in America) and the development of military trends throughout Europe. Nothing to do with India. Although the Sharpe books are a very good read.

    Adam

  24. #24
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    Feb 2005
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    My two cents: While accurate uniforms would be a very nice thing to see as confirmation of the historical accuracy of the game, I have a feeling that Pyro won't incorporate them. Why? Most probably to avoid confusion: the Russian army is already outfitted in green, so whatever clothing adjustments are to be made to other sides will have to be highly limited (for instance, the stylized Black Watch, which still have distinguishable red uniform jackets). While I personally would not be confused (especially since the regimental Union Jack is there above my troops), the developers are most likely worried (and understandably so) that the majority of gamers would be annoyed at their green rifle companies.
    "Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names men of the same principle. We are all Republicans. We are all Federalists."
    -Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, 1800.

  25. #25
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    Mar 2005
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    Cool Poll

    I've added a Poll to the thread, have your say!

    Adam.

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