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Thread: Burning Questions for Jen, Kyle and Richard - 3 Max & 1 Min Per Person

  1. #26
    My question is how did Turel know what Raziel did to his brethren,considering that since he wasn't in SR1 he was already draged to the past.
    "One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate. And thus defy the tyrranus stars." -Kain

  2. #27
    Ok, my three questions: -

    1) Moebius told the Elder God that the Hylden would be "dealt with in time". What exactly did he mean by this? Did he know that Kain's younger self would defeat them 400 years in the future? Or did he have something else planned for them?

    2) Here's a question which has been bugging me for some time. I know that Hash'ak'gik was the worshippers' name for Turel but was it also the Unspoken/Hylden Lord/Sarafan Lord's real name?

    3) Was Raziel trapped in the Underworld for 500 years or was he transported 500 years forward in time? There appears to be conflicting evidence, Moebius makes his comments to Kain, saying he should be asking "when" Raziel is but later Raziel says that he'd been captive in the Underworld for centuries and had lost 500 years.
    Our futures are predestined. It is my fate to write this and yours to read this. Free will is an illusion.

  3. #28
    Okay, third question, though I'm not expecting much of a straight answer. Mostly I'm looking for the final nail in the coffin of this discussion... http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...threadid=42829 ...to my understanding, the gist of the argument is that some believe that the Reaver's history did not change in SR2's paradoxes, while others believe that it isn't neccesary for the Reaver to return to the path it took before SR2.

    This is only assuming you don't do any twists in the next game to make the storyline any more carped up than it already is. Will the Soul Reaver eventually end up in the hands of the fledgling Kain? Has something already changed to make it unnessary for the Reaver to make its way (with stops along the way) back to Avernus?

    edit: I've kinda decided that this one isn't important, so I'd rather see time spent elsewhere than researching this one.

  4. #29
    Okay here are my three questions for the LOK team. My thanks to babifrence for his aid and suggestions regarding them.

    1) If Raziel had been absorbed into the Reaver blade at the end of SR2 (i.e. if Raziel had killed Kain already at William's Tomb and gone from there) what would have happened to the Physical Soul Reaver blade and in particular the Wraith Blade at that time?

    2) We are told that Kain created his lieutenants by breathing a portion of his soul into each corpse and drawing their souls back from the Underworld or something along those lines. Now Raziel through SR1 and Defiance has absorbed the souls of his brethen (and in a different manner to the way he typically absorbs souls because he gets a power enhancement) so they might be a part of him and therefore a part of the Wraith Blade and so when it purifies Kain does Kain regain the portions of his soul and become complete?

    3) Since Raziel was resurrected as a vampire using a portion of Kain's soul does this mean that there is a connection between Kain and the Soul Reaver as Raziel is the soul devouring entity within the blade and Raziel has a portion of Kain's soul within him.

    TTFN

  5. #30
    I'm a big fan of the LOK series, having analyzed the entirety of the series, and typed up many writings explaining just about everything that happens in the games, I have the answers for just about all your questions. Although most of them have already been solved by FAQ's by Amy Hennig and the staff at Eidos, provided in great part by Ben Lincoln, and posted on the LOK Archive forum, and some by simply playing all the games, there are a few that remain unanswered. I've pasted below all the LOK Defiance FAQ's. Later I'll go about answering some individual questions.

    LOK Defiance FAQ's

    Q&A with Amy Hennig

    Series Writer/Director Amy Hennig scoured the fan forums looking for questions to Defiance that needed answering after the game was released. She was generous enough to provide those answers to me for re-posting on the forums, and I am archiving them here for long-term storage.
    All answers have been paraphrased.

    Q: How does the Hash’ak’gik/Turel/Hylden relationship work?

    A: “Hash’ak’gik” is the name the human worshippers use for their god. The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda. In Defiance, he possesses Janos. In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel. In Blood Omen 2, he appears as the Hylden Lord (AKA Sarafan Lord). When Raziel meets Turel, Turel is actually being possessed by a number of other Hylden (not the Hylden Lord). Many different Hylden did so in order to command their disciples.

    Q: Why does Mortanius have a different voice actor than in Blood Omen?

    A: To avoid confusion with Tony Jay’s voice acting as The Elder God. Tony has a great voice, but it's always clear that it's him, and the intention was not to make The Elder God and Mortanius sound the same. Alastair Duncan is actually married to Anna Gunn (Ariel), but Amy didn't realize that when she was casting him.

    Q: Does the young Kain still kill Moebius?

    A: Yes. When Moebius is summoned to the Citadel at the end of the game, the Elder God has resurrected him from dying at the hands of Blood Omen-era Kain.

    Q: How does Defiance relate to the events of Blood Omen 2?

    A: The events of Defiance cause Blood Omen 2 to be possible. During the rift when the Pillars collapse, the Hylden Lord/Hash is able to escape his imprisonment and possess Janos. This means that not only does he have an indestructible vessel for himself, but once he gets another body in BO2, he has Janos prison to use to power The Device. Vorador’s appearance in that game was going to be explained a little bit in
    the original Defiance design, but this part was trimmed down.

    Q: Why does Janos recognize Raziel in Soul Reaver 2 if they’ve never met?

    A: The ancient vampires’ prophecy foretold Raziel’s coming. Janos was expecting the hero depicted in the murals, and was surprised to see Raziel’s true appearance.

    Q: How can Kain survive without the Heart of Darkness?

    A: His nature as the Scion of Balance allows him to survive.

    Q: How could the young Kain collect Hearts of Darkness in Blood Omen if he had it inside of his chest all along?

    A: The Heart of Darkness cards are representations of the relic, not the real thing. Janos didn’t have 99 hearts anyway =).

    Q: Which figure is Raziel in the murals?

    A: He is both. His free will results in a hybrid destiny, where he is both redeemer and destroyer. As Amy put it, “he does triumph, and paradoxically he does destroy himself at the same time.”

    Q: How did Turel come to be in Avernus?

    A: This was left deliberately vague so that a future game could cover it if desired. The implication based on the story of Blood Omen is that the circle used their dimensional- and time-traveling powers to bring him to them. Amy says that casting him as Hash wasn’t a recent decision, but was made shortly after he was cut from Soul Reaver.

    Q: Why does Raziel need to re-imbue the Reavers he already gained in Soul Reaver 2?

    A: He needed fonts to imbue the Reaver that way, and the fonts were no longer available in Defiance. Amy wanted to included a cut scene or artwork indicating that the fonts had been destroyed, implying that the Elder God had pulled them under or caused them to be destroyed in some other way, but it didn’t fit in the final game (see below).

    Q: Why were some changed aspects of the game left unexplained?

    A: There were a number of changes (e.g. imbuing the Reaver) that needed to be made to make the game a better-finished product. Many of these are explained in the game, and there is a logical explanation for 90% of them even if it wasn’t explicitly revealed. Defiance needed to appeal to both the hardcore fans and newcomers, and explaining all of the changes wouldn’t have worked for both groups.

    Q: What is the difference between the Scion of Balance and the Balance Guardian?

    A: The Scion of Balance is the figure that is destined to return the Pillars to vampiric rule, the one who was prophesied by the ancient Vampires. Kain is both, whereas the other Balance Guardians were not.

    Q: There has been speculation in the past that both Lady Azimuth and Moebius were devout followers of Hash’ak’gik. Would it be safe to say that this is indeed the case? Azimuth alone wouldn't be able to summon Hash, but could with Moebius' help.

    A: Azimuth and Mortanius served the Hylden, who they knew as “Hash’ak’gik” They were seduced away from their service of the Pillars by the power they unearthed beneath Avernus.

    Moebius didn’t serve Hash’ak’gik, though. He’s always been a servant of the Elder God.

    The means of summoning Turel was left deliberately vague, so that a future game might be able to cover it.

    Q: When did Moebius begin worshipping the Elder God? Was it during the SR2 (Sarafan) era? Or was this something he did later?

    A: Moebius was introduced to the Elder God when he lived among the Vampires of the Citadel. The Elder God spoke to him even after he stopped communicating with the Vampires. The human revolt was orchestrated through Moebius by The Elder God.

    Q: What is meant by Janos being “the uncorruptable vessel?”

    A: Possession by the Hylden “uses up” regular hosts. Mortanius lasted longer because he was the Death Guardian, but eventually succumbed. Janos and Turel - as immortal Vampires - could last forever, but Turel was trapped in the Catacombs. Janos also
    was able to power the Device because he was the last of the Ancients. The Hylden can be gentle with their possession, which makes the host last longer, or they can fully possess them, which transforms the body - this is what has happened to the Revenants later in the game, as well as what happens to Mortanius at the end of Blood Omen.

    Q: Is that a mask that Mortanius is using when Raziel first enters his chamber?

    A: Yes. He is using a Death’s Head mask, which he can summon and dismiss through magic.

    ( note from Blinc: I was happy with the “he just looks cooler in Defiance” answer, but it's cool to know that there is a story-based reason for his changed appearance too )

    Q: Is the Vampire Citadel the Lost City?

    A: No, the Lost City is in a different area.

    Q: Do the runes in the game mean anything?

    A: Yes. The runic writing uses the actual futhark phonetic definitions. This is why the writing can look like gibberish when translated back into English – it’s not a simple alphabetic equivalency like in Blood Omen.

    Amy is pretty sure that the writing over Kain’s tomb reads “Here lies Kain,” but didn't have the game in front of her when emailing me so she couldn't be 100% sure.

    Jen from Crystal Dynamics (one of the artists from the Defiance team) was kind enough to let me know that the writing in Kain's mausoleum says "Here lies Kain."

    Q: Is that a painting of Umah in Vorador’s Mansion?

    A: No, it is of a character who is part of the backstory and not revealed in the games. There is a painting of her in the Mansion in Blood Omen as well.

    Q: Why was Simon Templeman’s “and your so-called Wheel of Destiny will shatter upon my sword” line cut?

    A: This was an earlier version of Kain’s response to the Elder God, which Amy ended up not being happy with. She re-wrote it and had it re-recorded after the clip in the bonus material was filmed.

    Q: Late in the game, Raziel meets Mortanius speaking his “come to me, my undead son” line, which takes place after Moebius is killed by the young Kain in Blood Omen. How can Raziel then run into Moebius in Vorador's Mansion?

    A: This is a bit of a mistake due to some shuffling of the story near the end. Moebius was originally not going to make an appearance in the Mansion, but it was decided that it would make the story better to have Raziel face him again before the final battle.

    Q&A With Jen Fernández, Richard Lemarchand, and Kyle Mannerberg

    Three of the Legacy of Kain team were kind enough to provide answers to some questions I had been saving up from the forums and email. These are a follow-on to the Q&A with Amy, and also cover some material from previous games in the series. Thanks Jen, Richard, and Kyle!

    All answers have been paraphrased except as noted.

    Q: Do the figures in the murals represent the dual natures of Raziel and Kain, with Raziel being the figure that always falls at the hands of Kain, or is Raziel literally both, with Kain only as the central figure of the Scion of Balance mural?

    A: As the Scion of Balance, Kain isn’t really either one of the figures in the murals. Raziel is both of them. This is part of what Raziel realized at the end of Defiance.

    Q: Do the Hylden possess the ability to timestream or see the future and past? How are they able to orchestrate the destruction of the pillars?

    A: The Hylden have the ability to see into Nosgoth’s timestream, but how they do so hasn't been revealed yet.

    Q: If Ariel enters the Reaver in the BO era, does this alter the events of Soul Reaver?

    A: No. Time in the world of Legacy of Kain is basically immutable - those who travel through it can't change history, because they didn't. Jen, Richard, and Kyle mention the film 12 Monkeys at this point as an example of this concept [ If you haven't seen it, it's definitely worth checking out - blinc ]. While some things (like Ariel's role at the Spirit Forge) might seem out of place, it will all make sense in the end.

    Q: Is Raziel permanently trapped in the Reaver until his soul is released in SR?

    A: Raziel is doomed to play out his circular destiny over and over again [this is an exact quote, so please keep in mind that it is not an unqualified “yes” - blinc ].

    Q: Why were the Hylden exempt from the wheel? The Seer and the Builder in Blood Omen 2 both appeared to have immortality. If so, is this what made them a threat to the Elder before being banished?

    A: Most of the history of the Hylden has not been revealed yet, but it will be eventually.
    The Seer is “an extremely powerful and mysterious Hylden.” More of her story may appear in a future game. She *appears* to have escaped the binding.
    The Builder was exempted from aging because he was in the Eternal Prison - where the condemned could be punished for all time.

    Q: Why was the Circle defenseless back in Blood Omen 1?
    A: The Circle was taken by surprise, and could not face Vorador without Malek to protect them.

    Q: When the Hylden Lord possesses Janos at the end of Defiance, does he then use his body to activate the Hylden Gate at the Hylden City?

    A: Yes. The Hylden Lord used the body of Janos in order to open the gate. Once the gate was opened, the Hylden could enter the Material Realm directly, and so Janos was placed in the Device.

    Q: Why did Kain have Raziel thrown into the Abyss?

    A: Kain deduced that Raziel was the prophesied Vampire hero/messiah and that his temporary destruction would ultimately lead to Kain s claiming his own destiny as the Scion of Balance. Though at that time he was still unsure of how it would play out.
    Kain had understood enough of the Vampire prophecy to see the roles that he and Raziel would play, including the necessity of casting him into the Abyss.

    Q: Was the "ghost of Moebius" in SR2 truly a spirit, or an illusion created by him while he was alive?

    A: It was an illusion created by Moebius to influence Raziel.

    Q: Why did Kain's lieutenants and their children in Soul Reaver 1 devolve? Was it because each of them inherited the corruption from his soul?

    A: Yes, it was because of the corruption of Kain's soul. The amount of devolution was directly related to how much of his soul they received.

    Q: Why didn't Kain evolve any further once Raziel had grown his wings?

    A: The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way.

    Q: Are the Hylden and the Demons the same beings or different entities all together?

    A: The Demons are native to the dimension where the Hylden were banished, and are a separate race.

    Q: Are the insectoid demons in Blood Omen 2 the same Demons as in Defiance?

    A: Yes, they are just a different type of Demon.

    Q&A With Jen Fernández and Kyle Mannerberg

    1. Is the first BO1 timestreaming device the one that was used to bring Turel back, Kain said something like, 'So she could bring creatures from other eras and dimensions'

    Since Azimuth was the Dimension Guardian she could not pull creatures from other times only from other places or dimensions. Through the use of the Chronoplast she possessed Azimuth pulled Turel from the future back to the bowels of Avernus Cathedral.

    2. Why do the Defiance demons have no souls, or is it just me?

    Demons have no souls in Defiance for gameplay reasons, not for fictional ones.

    3. When Raziel tears out Kain's heart where does he go?

    When Raziel tears Kain's heart out, the blast of energy from Raziel is so strong that it blasts Kain through barrier that separates the different dimensions and into the Demon Realm. This is possible due to the corruption of the pillars, which weakens the planar boundaries and the Hylden's prison.

    4. Could you explain how Raziel is both heroes, just so I'm sure(I think I get it, but just to make sure)

    Raziel's prophesized arrival is interpreted differently by the Hylden and Vampires, because of their different points of view. In Amy's words, "As the Hylden champion, he destroys the Vampire messiah with his fiery sword (the Reaver) by sacrificing himself. And as the Vampire hero, he vanquishes the Hylden savior, by obliterating him(self) with the Reaver." As the Hylden champion, he is able to bring about their "release" (in a sense) by bringing Janos back to life. As the Vampire Messiah, he purifies the Scion of Balance insuring that the pillars are once more in the possession of the Vampires. His ability to fulfill both prophesizes is because he alone possesses free will and was able to make those choices.

    5. Why did Raziel purify the future Kain, instead of going back a few minutes through time, before Kain refused the pillars and after he killed Hash, wouldn't that have fixed everything?

    This goes back to our belief in the constant view that you cannot change history 'because you didn't' as shown in 12 Monkeys. If we run through the events you can see that purifying past Kain rather than Future Kain would have added an extremely fatal paradox into the time stream that would probably have expulsed Raziel all together if he tried to enact it by crossing two Soul Reavers. If past Kain is purified than the purification of the Pillars themselves would have changed the course of history most certainly eliminating all the events that led up to the remaking of Raziel all together. If that event does not happen then all the events that led Raziel to eventually purify BO1 Kain would never have happened thus making the purification itself a paradox. A change of this magnitude would probably, as stated in SR2, just expunge the irritant completely from history thus in the end ruining all of Kain and Raziel's efforts. Therefore only future Kain can be restored.

    6. Why do the Dark and Light forges have no souls aligned to them, and how do they charge between when Kain goes there and when Raziel does?

    Dark and Light are Elemental Forges without direct Principles to govern them so they have no Guardians which to provide souls. The other Elemental Forges such as Fire (Conflict and Nature), Water (Death and States), Earth (Energy and Time), and Air (Mind and Dimension) all are presided over by their original Vampire Guardians. Since the Elemental Forges were created for Raziel they do not activate for Kain.

    7. Why do the shades charge up the wraith blade, I thought they had no soul?

    They themselves do not have souls, but the Shades are formed by the fragments of half-devoured souls that cannot find their rest, over time building themselves up enough form to coalesce into a Shade. Thus, even though they have no souls their form itself was once made from them.

    8. How can the wraith blade be sucked into the blood Reaver with Raziel's soul, wouldn't that mean that there are two souls in there?

    The purified wraith blade that Raziel possesses is not drained into the Soul Reaver along with Raziel. In order for Kain to become purified by the wraith blade that contains the purity, the wraith blade must be dispersed or released from its imprisonment into Kain. Thus in that one single moment Raziel is simultaneously trapping himself within the Reaver but as well finally freeing himself from thousands of years of torment.

    9. Why is the demons' blood red in defiance and BO2?

    There are many different forms, shapes and types of Demon. They all do not have the same color blood.

    10. Is Turel mad because of his imprisonment, or because of his gift from Kain?

    Turel is mad from both his long imprisonment in the bottom of the Pit and the reoccurring possession of his mind by multiple Hylden as they use his voice as a vehicle to command his worshipers.

    11. Why after the change in the BO1 timeline does Kain remember his normal past, when in SR2 Raziel says that he can see new memories forming behind Kain's eyes and old ones dying?

    When we say here that the old memories are dying it is not that they are being erased from Kain's memory but instead being shuffled aside by the newer memories that reflect the altered course of history. Therefore he is not forgetting them he instead is holding in his mind two sets of parallel histories, one which is 'dead' and the other which is new and altered. This happens in BO1 but it is not directly mentioned by Kain.

    12. This may sound stupid but is LOK influenced in anyway by 'Conan The Barbarian', in BO1 his daughter has been taken from him, like in Conan, and the woman in Conan is very like the Sarafan women in BO2?

    No, Conan the Barbarian did not have any influence upon the LOK series.

    13. In SR1 vampires couldn't be killed by flesh deep attacks, how can Kain?

    Kain is never actually killed. When he has sustained great physical damage, Kain takes the form of bats and escapes so he may rest and recover his health.

    14. Did Kain absorb his armor to give that design on his chest, like Vorador and his beard, and Zephon with the Cathedral?

    No, Kain did not absorb his armor. The 'designs' upon his chest are merely the thousands of years of vampiric unlife and slow evolution showing upon his body making it more hard, rigid and scaly.

    15. Are those vampire wraiths in Defiance (The Archons)?

    No, the Vampire Wraiths and Archons are not the same creature though they do both devour souls. One of the larger differences between them is that Archons are agents of the Elder God while Vampire Wraiths are merely unfettered malicious spirits.

    16. The concept art shows Raziel under the stronghold, was this originally meant to be playable, before it was decided to place Raziel where he starts?

    Both characters were originally going to start in Stronghold, but that idea changed very early on in production.

    17. The priest in Avernus are wearing what looks like copies of the death mask, if they are in Nupraptor's retreat in Bo1, does it mean that Mortanius and Nupraptor are allies, is it a conspiracy in the Circle, with Azimuth?

    There was no conspiracy between Nupraptor and Mortanius and Azimuth.

    18. Why are there 12 concept guardian spirits?

    The 12 head concepts included were all explorations on the headdresses of the Vampire Guardians. As with all concept drawings many are done but only a select few make it into the game. Our art director picked the 8, which he felt were most appropriate for the look, and style they were trying to achieve.

    19. What about the last 2 chronoplast visions Raziel sees in SR1? Do they mean Raziel is still alive, or going to be, and when Ariel says 'You must unite what has been set asunder does she mean just put the wraith blade back in the Blood Reaver, and not Raziel (That it's not Raziel's soul anymore)? I know that I could be grasping at straw, but it looked like his soul was swept away, (he went blue, but that could be his soul being sucked in, I don't know)so is really in there?

    Some of the chronoplast visions Raziel sees in SR1 are alternate futures or possibilities of things that could have been, or illusions created by Moebius to steer Raziel off course. Ariel's reference to uniting what has been set asunder refers to many aspects of Raziel's cyclic destiny, the loop of the Reaver and his own soul, the purification of the pillars, Kain's reclaiming of his Guardian status, etc.

    20. If the Hylden are exempt from the wheel, do they have free will, like Raziel, Kain and the Elder God? And can they see through time or not?

    They are exempt from the Elder God's wheel of life due to their dislocation in a different dimension but not from the rules of fate and predetermined events that Raziel has been freed from with his remaking into the world. With their technological advancement it is very probable that they can glimpse at future events.

    21. Does Raziel really feed the Elder God when he sucks souls?

    When Raziel has a symbiotic connection with the Elder God, every soul that he devours returns that soul to the Elder God allowing him to re-spin that soul into the wheel of life.

    22. How can Raziel now climb walls in Spectral?

    This is a new ability that Raziel has learned over time, there is no actual in-game explanation given for this ability as it is a fairly minor addition.

    23. How have 500 years gone by for Raziel, I thought time didn't go by in Spectral?

    Though when moving from Material to Spectral Planes it appears that time has stopped, time does still travel just in a much different way than in the Material realm.

    24. Does something happen Kain's death scar when he is healed, or is just me?

    When Kain is purified by Raziel's sacrifice it heals the scar upon his chest. This is a visual representation of the physical and spiritual healing and purity that Raziel confers.

    25. Why can't Kain swim, Rahab could and he was still alive when Raziel found him?

    As seen in BO2 and SR1 different vampires develop different gifts. One of Rahabs gifts/mutations was immunity to water but weakness to sunlight. Kain on the other hand kept his weakness to immersion in water and developed other gifts. It is of note that he is immune to rain and snow because of the blood fountains he encountered in Blood Omen 1.
    "We have not met. I know of you, of course. That you can return from the dead gives hope to us all." - Janos Audron - (Blood Omen 2)

  6. #31
    I'll start by answering some of the more easier questions the games themselves explain. I'll leave the unanswered Defiance questions for Chris to ask to the rest of the staff at Crystal Dynamics.

    This was asked by card.
    1. Do the souls that get spinned in the wheel get placed back in their original bodies, when they were born, and replay their whole lives over and over, in a circle, or do they inhabit another body, and live other lives?
    Not quite, from all the information available from the games and some Designer Diaries, thus far, when a person dies, the Elder if he is able to ensnare their soul, spins their soul in his Wheel of Fate, getting rid of their true destiny, and shackling them to a false destiny he writes for that person's soul, the person is then reincarnated in another body, to play whatever role the Elder has written for them, when they die, the Elder once more does this. He may write a similar destiny for the person's soul, but it will not be exactly same for the person is reborn in a different era and may have to play a different role to fullfill the Elder's plan.

    This is a quote from an LOK Defiance Designer Diary on Kain that elaborates on my answer.

    Lastly, Kain (like Neo of The Matrix or John Murdoch of Dark City) can also be considered a gnostic hero, as he struggles in a world veiled in lies and illusion that is dominated by a tyrannical deity (the "Demiurge," or Elder God). It is this deity who reigns secretly over Nosgoth's corrupt world, engineering it to imprison and manipulate the souls of humankind
    Here are other questions asked by card, along with some of his comments.
    Why did I obey her? Why did I trust her, even for a moment? I had gone my own way, always. But this time...i really do hope it's not love. here's the question: did umah know kain before? he lost his memory so he may have lost something important? or maybe umah is a kainim? but i doubt that one.
    Kain had never met Umah before Blood Omen 2, he would have remembered her if he had, even with his partial amnesia he still remembered Vorador. You answered your own question, yes, Kain fell in love with Umah, and she had some feelings for him too, which makes the sting of her betrayal that much harder for Kain. As the old saying goes: "You hate the ones you love." Since the end of Blood Omen 1, after fully embracing his vampirism, she and Raziel are the only ones he has ever fully trusted.

    These are quotes from Blood Omen 2.

    Umah: Tell me one thing, Kain, before we go in. If you do kill the Sarafan Lord and recover the Soul Reaver, what then?

    Kain: You know the answer to that.

    Umah: Tell me.

    Kain: Then Meridian and all Nosgoth will become mine.

    [Kain clenches his fist in a sign of dominance]

    Umah: And the vampire resistance?

    Kain: Well, you may do whatever you wish, of course.

    Umah: Of course...

    [Umah suddenly grabs the Nexus Stone and places it on herself]

    Kain: What!?

    Umah: Do you take me for a fool!?

    Kain: You dare-

    Umah: Vorador has told me all your stories, Kain. He said that you would stop at nothing to achieve your great ambition- absolute power! And when you control Nosgoth are we to believe that you would let us vampires live and do what we wish? We are the only ones who could stand in your way.
    No! You will have to hunt us down and kill us and how is that different from the rule of the Sarafan Lord?

    Kain: I will not defend or explain my actions to you, Umah! No one, not even you, will stand in my way!

    Umah: I thank you, Kain, for giving us this chance to defeat the Hylden for all time but you have done enough. I shall be the one to find and kill the Sarafan Lord and Nosgoth shall belong to the vampires once again.

    Kain: You fool! You have not the smallest chance of surviving such a battle! Now give me the Nexus Stone or I shall pry it from your thieving fingers as you convulse in death!

    Umah: Now the beast shows his true nature and so quickly too. I wish it had been otherwise for us, Kain.

    [Kain leaps at Umah just as she teleports to safety. Kain continues through the Wharves until he reaches a closed gate]

    [Kain does this and finds Umah, wounded by a battle with the Sarafan Knights. Kain kills the last Sarafan Knight and turns to Umah]

    Kain: We meet again, Umah.

    Umah: Kain.

    Kain: Yes, Kain.
    I thought you were to bring the Sarafan Lord to his knees.

    Umah: I thought-

    [Umah falls to her knees from fatigue]

    Kain: I know.

    [Kain kneels down and supports her head]

    Umah: It seems I was wrong. I could not carry the fight alone.

    Kain: You were brave to try.

    Umah: Kain, I'm dying.

    Kain: Yes, you are.

    Umah: I need your blood. Please! You can save me!

    [Kain ignores her plea and reclaims the Nexus Stone]

    Kain: I know. Tell me, child, do you see me ruling Nosgoth?

    Umah: Yes. Yes, I see it now.

    Kain: And do you believe that Nosgoth rightly belongs to me?

    Umah: I do! I believe it, Kain! Please!

    Kain: Then you may die knowing the truth.

    [Kain slashes Umah's throat- a fatal blow]

    Umah: No!

    Kain: You should never have betrayed me. You could have been my queen.

    Umah: Kain...

    Kain: Now you have left me alone.
    By the dialogue above you can see that Kain really did love Umah, he valued her above all others and even wanted her to be his queen, her betrayal changed the younger Kain's character making him more into the older Kain from Soul Reaver 1.

    This is from Sarafan Minion.
    1.Question:

    Nosgoths landscape
    In Defiance Kain and Raziel discover those new areas which are full of ruins and ancient technology. They also visit places which are seen in earlier games. Everyone knows above-mentioned facts.

    So here comes the question: How it is possible that even Kain doesn’t know these “new places”? In SR1 timeline Kain rules the whole Nosgoth and had been the one who is roamed through out Nosgoth for centuries after centuries! Example vampire citadel: It’s behind the pillars and if my memory isn’t failing me, Kains throne is located in pillars. So how is it possible that Kain never visited in citadel? If he had visited in there, he would have those Reaver enhancing emblems already in SR1 timeline.

    This same question includes also Raziel. Voradors mansion shouldn’t be strange place to Kains right hand man, who had also time to roam here and there before he casted in to abyss. Same thing when Raziel arrives in cemetary.

    What about then that door in SR2 timeline, which leads under the surface to that chamber where elder god is? Did Kain or someone else destroy that door and that tunnel?
    First of all who says Kain roamed all of Nosgoth, although he did do some traveling, after Blood Omen 2, he could have simply stayed in one area, around the Pillars consolidating his power there. The Vampire Citadel is not behind the Pillars, but far off to its west, and it was covered by a thick fog, so you couldn't even see it. There might be nothing left of Vorador's Mansion, over 400 years had passed in Blood Omen 2, since the place started becoming ruins at the end of Defiance. The door underneath the Pillars, may still be there, but the path to it could be changed due to the planet's shifting landscape because of the collapse of the Pillars, and even if Kain could have found it, the image could be so faded, he'd have no idea what that door was there for. As for the other ruins, why would a guy that rules the whole planet, invest his time exploring locked places he knows nothing about.

    I'll answer some more questions at a later time.
    "We have not met. I know of you, of course. That you can return from the dead gives hope to us all." - Janos Audron - (Blood Omen 2)

  7. #32
    i refuse to believe such a thing! they'd better have a very good explanation for this, or else i'll permanently remove bo2 from my 'like list'. WHY did they have to put such a stupid thing in the script, as love? grrr.
    i'll still wait for their answers anyway.

  8. #33

    Wink

    you're in denial..

    i know it's hard to cope with. the truth always hurts.

  9. #34

    Lightbulb

    it's not necessarily the truth. things can still change! maybe they'll come up with a good excuse/answer till they send the answers back to us the coin is still turning the coin is still turning the coin is still turning...

  10. #35

    Thumbs Up

    lol!!!

    i feel the same way about the SR being pure!!!

  11. #36
    Originally posted by Dogfight


    Not quite, from all the information available from the games and some Designer Diaries, thus far, when a person dies, the Elder if he is able to ensnare their soul, spins their soul in his Wheel of Fate, getting rid of their true destiny, and shackling them to a false destiny he writes for that person's soul, the person is then reincarnated in another body, to play whatever role the Elder has written for them, when they die, the Elder once more does this. He may write a similar destiny for the person's soul, but it will not be exactly same for the person is reborn in a different era and may have to play a different role to fullfill the Elder's plan.

    With all my respect but I disagree...a soul is not reincarnated in another body...it's back to the same body throughout eternity....
    if not then why Raziel says he's doomed to play the same cycle throughout eternity in SR2...wait I'll get the quote
    …the ravenous, soul-devouring entity trapped into the blade was – and always had been – me.
    This is why the blade was destroyed when Kain tried to strike me down – the Reaver could not devour its own soul.
    The paradox shattered the blade.
    So – this was my terrible destiny – to play out this purgatorial cycle for all eternity…
    http://sigstressumah.members.easyspace.com/koth.jpg
    "Come to me my undead son, make haste to the Pillars, the stage is set for the Grand Finale, you will have your vengence." Mortanius

  12. #37
    With all my respect but I disagree...a soul is not reincarnated in another body...it's back to the same body throughout eternity....
    First of all, I was not referring to Raziel's ghost. Second, Raziel's ghost himself after being tossed into the Abyss according to Kain's orders in Soul Reaver 1, was not brought back in the same body he had in life, according to the series, his drifting maddened soul was taken by the Elder and revived as his agent, the reaver of souls. Thus, the ghost of Raziel when feeding on enough souls in Soul Reaver 1 and 2, was able to shift from the Spectral Realm into the Material Realm and maintain a newly created physical manifestation spawned from his battered spiritual essence. If Raziel's ghost ran low on energy his newly created physical manifestation, would cease to be.

    Raziel's true destiny was not to play out the same cycle over and over again, as he so stated in Soul Reaver 1, his true destiny was to become the Soul Reaver, and eventually his future self would become the purified Soul Reaver healing Kain of Nupraptor's corruption and becoming a permanent part of Kain's soul, at least for the time being, so that Kain could achieve his true destiny as Scion of Balance. This is what the Elder wanted to avoid thus he orchestrated the events in the series to try to stop this from happening.

    Your fate is trivial Raziel, it was Kain's destiny that mattered all along.
    The Elder fears above all things Raziel and Kain's partnership, apparently it is the only thing that can destroy him. Raziel ghost as the Soul Reaver, and Kain purified by Raziel's future self, are a very deadly combination that may be able to kill the Elder at last.
    "We have not met. I know of you, of course. That you can return from the dead gives hope to us all." - Janos Audron - (Blood Omen 2)

  13. #38
    Originally posted by Dogfight
    First of all, I was not referring to Raziel's ghost. Second, Raziel's ghost himself after being tossed into the Abyss according to Kain's orders in Soul Reaver 1, was not brought back in the same body he had in life, according to the series, his drifting maddened soul was taken by the Elder and revived as his agent, the reaver of souls. Thus, the ghost of Raziel when feeding on enough souls in Soul Reaver 1 and 2, was able to shift from the Spectral Realm into the Material Realm and maintain a newly created physical manifestation spawned from his battered spiritual essence. If Raziel's ghost ran low on energy his newly created physical manifestation, would cease to be.
    So u're saying that Raziel didn't have a shape after being thrown into the abyss...I agree that he's a wraith and he belonged to the spectral realm and after devouring souls he could shift to the material realm and take the blue shape we see him in....if this shape is from his "battered spiritual essence" as you said then why does this shape looks like a deformed shape of his vampire shape...why didn't he go back to his vampire shape instead of this deformed and demonic form....?


    I understand that Raziel's true destiny was to become the Soul Reaver and then purifying Kain....but that's his true destiny not the one writtten by the EG...take the original time line...Raziel's fate was in this timeline was written by EG...his fate was to be absorbed by the Reaver in the Sarafan Stronghold...if he's absorbed by the reaver where the WB will go?it must be absorbed by EG to spin it in the wheel and use it to born the human Raziel which will play the same cycle again....
    http://sigstressumah.members.easyspace.com/koth.jpg
    "Come to me my undead son, make haste to the Pillars, the stage is set for the Grand Finale, you will have your vengence." Mortanius

  14. #39
    rabban Guest
    hmm...about souls going into the wheel of fate...anybody recall those sr2 invisable wraiths being explained as half eaten souls?

  15. #40
    You see, souls in the LOK series, much like physical bodies, don't change so easily, but can change over time if they receive enough trauma or some outside force changes them while they are in limbo. If many centuries have passed, they may even evolve, like the souls of vampires who when remaining too long in the Spectral Realm become Vampire Wraiths.

    Originally Raziel had a human body and a human soul, centuries after his death his soul and body were transformed into that of a vampire by Kain. When he was thrown into the Abyss, the water like acid to him was so great, so overwhelming, his body was destroyed and filled with such pain and hate his soul was changed forever from his previous form. This remaking is what gives Raziel his free will. Then to add insult to injury the Elder awoke his soul back from the precipice of madness and remade him as his own agent, bounding Raziel’s soul to him symbiotically, in an effort to restrain this free will being to achieve his own ends. Raziel's ghost to be able to change the form of his soul back into that of his past vampire self, would be like us changing our physical body into that of a lemur, it doesn't work that way. Much like Ariel could not go back to her previous form due to her corruption until she was healed by the Spirit Forge, Raziel's dark soul only fully changes form when he goes into the Blood Reaver blade changing it into the Soul Reaver (A vampiric wraith blade.), and when his future self, the wraith blade is purified into the Spirit Reaver.

    It is actually quite a misconception that Raziel's ghost is a wraith, many people refer to him as such but he is not a wraith. His weapon and future self, the Soul Reaver, is a vampiric wraith blade for it was changed into such a form, by Raziel's ghost's imprisonment in the Blood Reaver (This blade was imbued with vampiric energy.), but his ghost in the Soul Reaver games and Defiance was never a wraith. This ghoul was in actuality a symbiotic child of the Elder, much like the Archons, when Raziel's ghoul feasted on souls, he was also feeding the Elder, who would then spin these souls in his wheel. The Sluagh and the Vampire Wraith's feasted on souls, but when they did thus, they made themselves stronger having no connection whatsoever to the Elder. The Soul Reaver therefore feeds itself, but the ghoul of Raziel besides feeding itself also feeds the Elder. If the Soul Reaver wraith blade and the ghost of Raziel were the same, a paradox would occur everywhere they went; this doesn’t happen for although they are similar they are also very different. At the end of Soul Reaver 2, Raziel was freed from his master's control, attaining full free will, although he was still symbiotically bound to him, until the end of Defiance.


    Kain: It doesn't matter, Raziel. Listen to me, you must understand that every creature is bound to one predestined path. We are all shackled -

    Raziel: -- To the Wheel of Fate. Believe me, I know that even better than you do.

    Kain: All but one. Because of your remaking, you are the one unbound creature, the one among us all that truly has free will. You have a choice, Raziel.


    Raziel: As I emerged, I was granted a vision of what I would become if I did not escape the Spectral Realm. For these too were agents of my master, hunting the lost souls that struggled to escape the endless twilight of the Underworld.

    Raziel defeats the Archons.

    Raziel: My master's plan for me was omniously clear. Like these mindless hunters, I existed only to fuel him with souls, siphoning their energy to feed him and his Wheel of Fate. I had to break these bonds, while I still possessed my free will.
    if he's absorbed by the reaver where the WB will go?it must be absorbed by EG to spin it in the wheel and use it to born the human Raziel which will play the same cycle again....
    In response to this Raziel's future self, his right hand weapon, the wraith blade, at the end of Soul Reaver 2, would have been left in the Spectral Realm at the Sarafan Stronghold, if Raziel's ghost had become imprisoned in the Blood Reaver then. It would have thus remained there, likely for all eternity. Raziel's human self was born decades before this occurred.
    "We have not met. I know of you, of course. That you can return from the dead gives hope to us all." - Janos Audron - (Blood Omen 2)

  16. #41
    dogfight...if Slaughs and Wraiths are different from Raziel in that they dont feed the EG, then how are archons diferent from Raziel?
    Although Raziel's ghoul is much like the Archons, more so than anything else, he is much more powerful than they are, and he is not a mindless beast that is entirely shackled to the Wheel of Fate and fully dedicated to feeding the Elder. The Archons are drones to the Elder, but Raziel's ghoul retains his free will, and even much of his individuality, this is what separates him from the Archons. The Archons are content with what they have become and their role in serving the Elder, but Raziel wants to be something more and wants to escape the Elder's influence.
    "We have not met. I know of you, of course. That you can return from the dead gives hope to us all." - Janos Audron - (Blood Omen 2)

  17. #42
    my question is about the Pillars.
    in this picture we have the pillars in the opening fmv of sr. (i am sorry for the size, but it's the best i found) if you look closely you can see that in the little circle there (where raziel was standing when kain hit him with the reaver), there is a straight line passing through. also, we can see that from the circle, another straight line goes out and stops between the mind and dimension pillars, with some symbols. also there is another line of symbols going between the death and states pillars.
    but in this the straight line from inside the little circle is no longer straight and those two lines of symbols are also gone.
    now in this one we've got all that, except for the straight line in the circle.
    this one also. now my question is: was that just an error the team made, or is it done on purpose, with some meaning to it. if it does have a meaning, what is it?
    thanks.

  18. #43
    Originally posted by Dogfight

    In response to this Raziel's future self, his right hand weapon, the wraith blade, at the end of Soul Reaver 2, would have been left in the Spectral Realm at the Sarafan Stronghold, if Raziel's ghost had become imprisoned in the Blood Reaver then. It would have thus remained there, likely for all eternity. Raziel's human self was born decades before this occurred.
    I think an archon is likely to find the WB and return it to the wheel and about the time thing...does EG really look like his powers are limited by time???!?

  19. #44
    my question is about the Pillars. in this picture we have the pillars in the opening fmv of sr. (i am sorry for the size, but it's the best i found) if you look closely you can see that in the little circle there (where raziel was standing when kain hit him with the reaver), there is a straight line passing through. also, we can see that from the circle, another straight line goes out and stops between the mind and dimension pillars, with some symbols. also there is another line of symbols going between the death and states pillars. but in this the straight line from inside the little circle is no longer straight and those two lines of symbols are also gone. now in this one we've got all that, except for the straight line in the circle. this one also. now my question is: was that just an error the team made, or is it done on purpose, with some meaning to it. if it does have a meaning, what is it?
    thanks.
    Simply, this is an issue of cosmetic differences. Much like how Moebius' appearance is different in Soul Reaver 2 and in Defiance from how he looked from Blood Omen 1, his staff even got a new snake on it, and how the Chronoplast Chamber looks different in the introduction of Soul Reaver 2 from how it looked in Soul Reaver 1. Besides this you have the Cemetary and Vorador's Mansion changed from Blood Omen 1 looking very different in Defiance. I would say the best way to look at it, is that there is one story, LOK, but over time the writers of the story through the video game medium alter slightly some of the cosmetic details, which doesn't really impact the story, simply to make it more awesome and convincing. I would call LOK a virtual interactive book of a story, as the technology changes some of the cosmetics of the series change, some things are altered or dropped altogether, and some details are added but the story remains the same.
    "We have not met. I know of you, of course. That you can return from the dead gives hope to us all." - Janos Audron - (Blood Omen 2)

  20. #45
    i'd also like to know about the stone that raziel is standing on in the underworld. there's something written there but i can't really understand what it says.
    what does it say (and if it's written in futhark or lovecraft, what is its translation) and what is its meaning/what does it refer to?

  21. #46
    Well I've got some questions

    1. How did the demons in the third era of SR2 get spawned? The Pillars weren't corrupted yet and it is 500 years after that when they manage to gain a foothold into the world. Did they travel trough time like Raziel?

    2. Was Raziel healed of Kain's maddness when he was cast into the Abyss? I'm asking this because his "brethren" had decayed because of that madness (exept Turel).

    3. Something caught my eye in Defiance. The Hylden had a prophecy about a hero bearing a flaming sword that would cause the vampires' false god (EG) to fall. Well, at the end of the game the Reaver looks like a flaming sword and Kain defeats the EG. So the Hylden prophecy is the one fulfilled? Along with the Vampire prophecy? Is this all planned by some other force (the Fates) or something like that?

  22. #47
    You know how near the end there's three pictures. One of the hylden with the flaming sword killing the vampire, one of the vampire with the reaver killing the hylden and the one in the middle is the result where the flaming sword and the reaver are superimposed onto each other and being held by the scion of balance. The two become one as Raziel put it.

    I think the original balance guardian or someone might have found out about the EG and tried to set the prophecy in motion. Janos didn't know that the Reaver had been cursed to consume Raziel and the guardians didn't seem to want Raziel to complete the forges. So someone must have known to build them.

    Mortanius didn't have free will so could the EG have tried to stop him turning Kain into a vampire. However he was trying to use Kain to ignite the genocidal war against vampires and succeded.
    Kain didn't have free will before Raziel healed him so unless the EG deliberately let him stay alive, Kain would have sacrificed himself at the pillars. He probably also needed Raziel to kill off Kain.

    However if the EG controlled everybody's free will then he could have had the vampires just kill the hylden instead of banish then and deprive him of their souls.

    So the whole Kain and Raziel prophecy might have been Squiddy's all along. Someone must have been exempt from the wheel in order for the for the Elder to not to know that his plan wouldn't work and change it before it took place.

  23. #48

    Exclamation CLOSING DATE IS APPROACHING.....

    Hiya Peeps,

    Just to let everyone know, the closing date is on the 18th of this month so if you havent got your burning questions and quibbles written down already then I urge that you do it now as you might not get the chance to do this again for a long while. This means starting from tomorrow, you have precisely 2 weeks (14 days) left to get scribbling.

    Whilst I appreciate that CD may or may not get the oppertunity to have our questions answered, if ever, this was a great oppertunity to have the community come together and put their minds at rest by putting forward some of the questions we have all been plagued with.

    Please Note: Some people have not been adhering to the rules that I initially put up in my first post in this thread.

    This is not a discussion thread, it is a question thread for the LoK team.

    Please remember that. It is in our best interest that we do not have pages and pages of clutter that strays away from the initial topic. If you have an idea, please take the liberty of putting into another thread so we can equally get whats best for everyone.

    I want this to be as quick and painless as everyone else does because it will make it easier in the long run to get our questions answered quicker and more likely. Contributing ideas, regardless of how altruistic and benevolent it is, it will create hassle for CD to clear up irrelevant posts. The more likely and frequent this is, the less likely CD are to take the time and answer our queries. Remember to consider this adamently before you even begin to click on your Submit Reply button.


    PEACE OUT !!!


    PS Im not a very strict guy, im just looking out for the community, so please take care before you post. I didnt want to make a list of rules that state do not do this and do not do that, just basic stuff that we should all know and respect.
    One Man Can Make a Difference ! (Wilton Knight - Founder of the Knight Foundation)

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    10,661

    Lightbulb

    If you want the thread cleaned out a bit, I can do that. At this point though, it may be best to wait until it's closed though. (Remind me in two weeks, please. )

  25. #50
    i wanna know that if Kain is truly purified, will he become like the picture at the end of defiance? the one where he is blue with wings holding the reaver, because Amy said in an interview in GI after sr1 that Kain would NOT grow wings and that it was unique to Raziel, however the picture and the purification meant otherwise.

    Q #2; Kain seems to not need most of his offsprings gifts, except for Rahab, would he thus gain Rahab's gift either over time and evolution, or through the purification of the reaver? after all, Raziel got it by consuming Rahab's soul, perhaps the purification and reunification of Kains soul via Raziels sacrifice, Kain would recieve the gifts of his sons, such as Rahab's immunity to water and Raziels shifting and free will?

    Last Q; could vampires secretly and unknowingly already consume souls? Raziel gains his brother's gifts by consuming their souls, vampire wraiths evolve to consuming souls, and in BO2 Kain absorbs vampires' gifts in a way that appears to be consuming their soul, could vampires have received not only immortality, sterilization, and bloodthirst from the Hylden curse but the ability of soul masterkation as well?

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