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Thread: [SPOILER] Whys is Vorador still around

  1. #51
    [QUOTE=dumah's wraith;977719]
    Quote Originally Posted by VipericVampire View Post
    Well, in whatever way Vory was resurrected, we can all agree that Kain did it?
    QUOTE]

    Not neccessarily. It could have been a random fledgling who survived the purge, a stupid demon hunter...anyone. We don't know
    Perhaps even... Umah? If she were supose to live and be human around the time of Defiance (it means Vorador was raised just then in order to be able to make Umah into a vampire to live until BO2). Vorador do seem to have some sort of attachment to her. Even more so than any other vampire. There also aren't that many characters to pick from and it should be someone we know that was alive right after BO1. Ofcourse she would've had to have been a human when she did it, maybe looking for immortality.

    When I think about it, Kain wouldn't know that Vorador could create vampires and really wouldn't have any need to resurrect him. Raising such a potentially deadly threat isn't something Kain would do lightly. My point here is that Umah would more likly be foolish enough to raise Vorador taking the risk that he could make her into a vampire. BO2 doesn't really show her as that much calculating, making rash decisions, with an arrogance to almost rival Kain. I can see her taking a risk to raise Vorador to win immortality.

    Ofcourse all speculation

  2. #52
    Not a bad point Jenkins. However I dont think Kain would view Vorador a threat after the events of Blood Omen. With the reaver in hand I doubt Vorador would be all that antsy to go up against Kain.

    Of course there is a theory no one has brought up yet. Kain did respect Vorador (even though he viewed him as decadent). It could be that Kain decided to bring back Vorador for a mentorship if you will. We dont know alot about thier relationship prior to the events of Blood Omen 2. From previews it seemed Vorador acted as an advisor to Kain (I say advisor due to the fact Kain never addresses Vorador as a general.)

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JanosAudron View Post
    Not a bad point Jenkins. However I dont think Kain would view Vorador a threat after the events of Blood Omen. With the reaver in hand I doubt Vorador would be all that antsy to go up against Kain.

    Of course there is a theory no one has brought up yet. Kain did respect Vorador (even though he viewed him as decadent). It could be that Kain decided to bring back Vorador for a mentorship if you will. We dont know alot about thier relationship prior to the events of Blood Omen 2. From previews it seemed Vorador acted as an advisor to Kain (I say advisor due to the fact Kain never addresses Vorador as a general.)
    Going along those same lines Kain may have realized Vorador's usefullness. As Kain grew older he grew more powerful and gained new traits from evolution. He may have recognized that Vorador was far older than him, and therefor could provide him with priceless information. This is assuming that Kain felt it would be worth the risk of facing said power if Vorador ever decided to turn on him.
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  4. #54
    It could have even been Moebius. While he himself has not shown the ability to raise people from the dead he could always ask EG to do it. Knowing the only way to seal the events they have worked so hard to set into play was to ensure Kain and Raziel made it to the space and time where Raziel kills Kain and gets sucked into the reaver he could have raised Vorador to ensure Kain's survival. At east until he was strong enough to make it there on his own.

    The Umah theme is a nice idea too.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by JanosAudron View Post
    Not a bad point Jenkins. However I dont think Kain would view Vorador a threat after the events of Blood Omen. With the reaver in hand I doubt Vorador would be all that antsy to go up against Kain.

    Of course there is a theory no one has brought up yet. Kain did respect Vorador (even though he viewed him as decadent). It could be that Kain decided to bring back Vorador for a mentorship if you will. We dont know alot about thier relationship prior to the events of Blood Omen 2. From previews it seemed Vorador acted as an advisor to Kain (I say advisor due to the fact Kain never addresses Vorador as a general.)
    I don't know if I agree. Kain was still a fledgling after BO1, and Vorador was hundreds if not thousands of years old (I can't find a reference but I remember it being stated he was very old) and could probably just use telekenisis to take the Soul Reaver out of his hands. Remember at the end of BO1 Kain hid behind a Pillar when Mortainious finsihed off a Pillar Guardian. Even at the end of BO2 he clearly moved out of the way when the Sarafan Lord took care of Janos Audren. It does seem like Kain avoid fights if he can. Not calling him a coward, he did take care of both Mortainious and the Sarafan Lord, but my point is that even though he could probably take Vorador it wouldn't be in his calculating nature to put himself in a position where he would have to if he could avoid it.

    Also I'm not sure I would say Kain had any respect for Vorador. He doesn't say he likes him but thinks he's decadent. He uses the words "The decadent old fool gave a borish account of how he murdered the Circle of Nine" and "He thought my curse a gift ... But deep inside I knew he was right" in BO1. Then in BO2 the first thing is "The sado-hedonist Vorador ... ". I don't think Kain have any respect for Vorador's nature of staying away from the human affairs and only abducting them to drink their blood and tourture them. Ofcourse Kain is no good-guy but he doesn't strike me as a sadist and I don't think he respects Vorador for being one. Though I have to say in all but BO1 Voarador doesn't strike me as a sadist either, but then again we only see him when Raziel and Kain are having conversasions with him, often far away from humans so there's nothign to tourture

    There is one more thing here: In BO2 when Umah betrayed Kain she said Vorador had told about him and she was convinced Kain would kill the Cabal once he had taken Nosgoth. It doesn't sound like something a mentor would say about his protectee. Also though it may be becoming too far-fectched it could hint that Kain didn't resurrect Vorador at all, and Vorador making the conclusion once he was resurrected that Kain didn't resurrect him because he didn't want any rivals (and making the probably correct conclusion Kain would remove them after he learnt how to make his own vampires).

    Wow, got a little wall of text here. Oh well

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Jenkins View Post
    Remember at the end of BO1 Kain hid behind a Pillar when Mortainious finsihed off a Pillar Guardian. Even at the end of BO2 he clearly moved out of the way when the Sarafan Lord took care of Janos Audren. It does seem like Kain avoid fights if he can. Not calling him a coward, he did take care of both Mortainious and the Sarafan Lord, but my point is that even though he could probably take Vorador it wouldn't be in his calculating nature to put himself in a position where he would have to if he could avoid it.

    There is one more thing here: In BO2 when Umah betrayed Kain she said Vorador had told about him and she was convinced Kain would kill the Cabal once he had taken Nosgoth. It doesn't sound like something a mentor would say about his protectee.
    Personally the way I look at it Kain arrived late and was listening in. When Mortanius went wiggy Kain was more than happy to let him do the work (who wouldnt be? hehe) that doesnt mean that he avoids the fight just that he fights smart.
    As for Vorador's comment actually that would be precisely the thing a mentor would say. If Vorador did "mentor" Kain then he would be in a perfect posistion to know exactly what Kain would do if he needed to.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by JanosAudron View Post
    Personally the way I look at it Kain arrived late and was listening in. When Mortanius went wiggy Kain was more than happy to let him do the work (who wouldnt be? hehe) that doesnt mean that he avoids the fight just that he fights smart.
    Yeah, that's what I mean as well. My point is that Vorador was pretty powerful and Kain wouldn't resurrect him unless he had to. Remember the older leutenant in SO1 the more powerful they got. Vorador comes straight from Janos Audron, one of the true vampires and I really think he was supose to be this uber-vampire. Kain wouldn't know Vorador could create vampires but like you said perhaps Kain needed some information on being a vampire.

    However I like my theory of Umah. I can't really imagine Kain resurrecting Vorador saying "let's go make vampires together". There would have to be some catalyst for Vorador to get involved with the affairs of men. Perhaps it is like you say that Kain was that powerful and Vorador actually feared him with his Soul Reaver. In BO2 however he just needed Kain to topple the Sarans that, as we all know would be against Vorador's life-style so he needed to take care of them. Perhaps why Vorador "suposedly" ordered Umah to betraay Kain at the end so he couldn't recover the Soul Reaver?

    This way we'll also get to play Umah in a sequel immidiatly after BO1 where elder Kain was last seen and get to resurrect Vorador. I do think there's a lot you can do with a chracter even if you know when they'll die. Perhaps even though I feel it would be too cheesy you'll get to do some stuff with elder Kain (stalk a green shadow with a glowing sword, actually talking would be too weird), perhaps travel to the future of Nosgoth. Umah would learn how young-elddar Kain got rid of Raziel and learn his nature. Then at the end elder Kain sends her home. Bleh, the level of cheesy is unbarable: Travel 500 years to BO2 and resurrect her and bring her with him

    Quote Originally Posted by JanosAudron View Post
    As for Vorador's comment actually that would be precisely the thing a mentor would say. If Vorador did "mentor" Kain then he would be in a perfect posistion to know exactly what Kain would do if he needed to.
    I'm still not convinced. Kain really doesn't strike me as someone with a mentor and from BO2 I'm constantly getting the feeling Kain would only keep Vorador around because he need a vampire army. There's also the very likly possibility Kain did suspect that Vorador could create vampires. Where else would they come from? Where DID they come from anyway? In BO1 they were pretty common, or? Did Vorador just create them and leave them be? In SO2 there are spikeed vampires in the old days of Nosgoth, 500 years before BO1 if I'm right. In BO1 there're only 2-3?

  8. #58
    Actually (cant believe no one mentioned this and that i forgot hehe) from a deductive stand point Kain would indeed know that Vorador can make vampires or at least think that Vorador knows. During the first blood omen Vorador's mansion (anyone else notice how much easier it is to get there in the games past BO heh) was filled with vampires and Kain makes a few comments about them.

    As for the Reaver. Just about everything in the Legacy of Kain universe fears that blade... (follows is why they think they fear the blade or do and is conjecture)

    Kain: the only weapon that can kill him.

    Raziel: ment for his imprisonment

    Janos: A weapon ment for his enemies and ment to be the key of the pillars has to be scary

    Vorador: he crafted it, but knows the Ancients enscorcelled it but for what purpose?

    Moebius: ensures powerfull enough paradoxes and almost died before his due time (when Raziel confronted him with the entwined blades)

    Elder God: the bloody thing hurt the big squid!!! Why not be afraid of it!

    Hylden: made a nexus stone to protect themselves from the blade and then used the blade for themselves, also they probably know that its an instrument of thier banishment

    Vampires (not mentioned above hehe): older than any of them and a 1000 times more deadly.

    and of course Umah (the moderator): she fears the blade thats why she doesnt talk to us much anymore

  9. #59
    Well, don't forget that the timeline was altered after William's death so that, technically, everything from the first 3/4s of Blood Omen is subject to change. Since Kain and Vorador were the last living vampires by the time of Moebius' rally at the garrison, that means all the vampires in the Mansion had been slaughtered by hunters, probably even before Kain's first visit. And when Raziel visits the mansion between Kain's resurrection and Vorador's execution, there are indeed no other vampires there.

  10. #60
    This brings up some good points. First of all, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that Vorador had sufficient knowledge of how to create vampires due to the fact that his mansion in Blood Omen 1 is swarming with them. I suppose he might have just liked the company but he didn't come across as the most social guy to me. He greeted Kain with a goblet of blood but it was a somewhat tense scene. It seemed more like Vorador was putting up with Kain barging in only because he didn't really feel like a fight at the moment. Second, we know that the Soulreaver is a weapon to be feared for all the reasons that JanosAudorn listed and I'm sure we could think of more if we put our heads to it. This still leaves the question of how Vorador went from beheaded to walking around. Were it Kain that resurrected him then Vorador might have felt something along the lines of a favor owed, thus his aiding Kain back to health in Blood Omen 2 might not be entirely self-centered (at first glance it just seems like he wants somebody to go in and kick some hylden ass for him seeing as how he can't seem to quite pull it off on his own).
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  11. #61
    I like the idea of the feared Soul Reaver. In SR1 Raziel also clearly points out that when Kain drew the blade in anger it meant you're dead. It've probably got more magical properties than just draining blood and soul. In BO1 I want to remember a sweep and your enemies exploded. In SR2 even without Raziel's soul it turned him immortal. Btw, didn't it drain your own blood in BO1?

    There's also one thing in BO1 I didn't think about: Vorador gave Kain that magic ring which could summon him, the one you used when you found Malek and the threesome of Pillar Guardians. It might show that there were some affection from Vorador towards Kain, as well as him saying it would be a shame if he died. Also Kain might feel he owed Vorador after that assistance thus resurrecting him. Suposedly if Kain was telling Umah the truth in BO2 he do seem to have some sense of nobility in him.

    At the end of BO2 it might just be that Kain didn't feel he owed Janos Audron anything and that he was too powerful to not let the Hylden Lord dispose of him. Even though Kain could take Janos he had no use of him and plainly killing him would turn Vorador against him and he would lose his vampires. Still I don't know, Janos did teleport Kain around and after his talk with the oracle I would imagine Kain asking Janos to be his ally.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Escaton View Post
    Well, don't forget that the timeline was altered after William's death so that, technically, everything from the first 3/4s of Blood Omen is subject to change. Since Kain and Vorador were the last living vampires by the time of Moebius' rally at the garrison, that means all the vampires in the Mansion had been slaughtered by hunters, probably even before Kain's first visit. And when Raziel visits the mansion between Kain's resurrection and Vorador's execution, there are indeed no other vampires there.
    Not all of the "original" timeline can be ignored. Certain events happen no matter what. The most crucial of course is Kain's refusal at the pillars. Also the murder of Ariel and the corruption of the circle happens, its the only way for the Hylden's plan to work. Aside from what changes Kain still remembers everything that transpired as history reshuffles itself around him giving him extra memories (and to squirrely nexus plains of death and acorns with the butterfly effect movie and any of you lots thinking of using it to counter this arguement ).

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Jenkins View Post
    There's also one thing in BO1 I didn't think about: Vorador gave Kain that magic ring which could summon him, the one you used when you found Malek and the threesome of Pillar Guardians. It might show that there were some affection from Vorador towards Kain, as well as him saying it would be a shame if he died. Also Kain might feel he owed Vorador after that assistance thus resurrecting him. Suposedly if Kain was telling Umah the truth in BO2 he do seem to have some sense of nobility in him.
    The ring was needed as a plot device at the time, but I most certainly see where you're coming from. Kain does seem to display some "nobility" at times (let us not forget his treatment of his generals in BO2: Death for the betrayers, kindness and even empathy for Magnus). I think that when Vorador first encountered Kain he did indeed think it would be a shame if Kain died, he probably saw a little bit of himself in Kain. Vorador started off human, let us not forget that, he probably went through the feelings of doubt, hate, change, and finally acceptance that Kain eventually goes through.
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  14. #64
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    I don't know if he was that kind to Magnus. While I'm sure Magnus was honoured to be released from his torment, I think he would have been even more honoured had Kain telekinetically lifted the statue off him and brought him with him.
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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe10lo View Post
    Ok first I came to this chat forum to find the answer to this question since this is Eidos and here it is.

    So far because of Defiance i've been able to peice together all of LOK except for one thing how is Vorador still alive in this when his execution took place already? This is the biggest plot whole i've come across and i would like some one to answer it for me please some one give me at least a reasonable explantion of this event.
    Honestly anyone who asks that question has no right to call themselves a LOK fan... Do u honestly not know how vorador is alive?

  16. #66
    that's abit much
    none of us knows how vorador is still alive after his BO death, even moebius shouldn't be talking to raziel on his return to the mansion!! (in a review someone said that moebius wasn't suppose to be there but they had to put him in) and if the creators themselves are mucking around with the plot, then we're all *beep* as to try and figure it out.
    and i'll point out again *sigh* how is Ariel ment to be in SR when she was clearly consumed in Defiance - ment to be priour to the SR point- so how can she still be alive??
    and why did Azimuth get turel??
    it makes no sense!! someone in CD was thinking "oh sod it, i'll just bung this in, the fans won't give a rat's behind, they'll accept it" ....
    anyone ever get the feeling that when you try and unravel the plot (figuring out which scene comes before/after the other) that some one in the making of LOK didn't care for continuaty? or acruacy for that matter?.....
    *confused*
    Legacy of Kain: Legion - the Battle has been fought, but the War has just begun!

  17. #67
    I actually like it. I admit every plot-twist does at first seem like a plot-hole. I'm thinking mainly on most of the things in BO2 (why Janos was in the machine, Vorador's resurrection) but some of these things are eventually answered so I think it's just that: Plot-twists. And discussing them seem to be what LoK-fans like best

    I don't remember Ariel being consumed in Defiance. I think Raziel just talks to her when she's a ghost and she's still a ghost in SR1. Tural wasn't in SR1 so I think they did plan for him to show up earlier. I have to believe they didn't just release the game and suddenly thought "No! We forgot a vampire leutenant! Oh well, too late now..."

    Anyway, maybe someone fought Turel and sent him back in time, or perhaps there was something special with him that made him a very good host for Hylden-possession. If I would guess I would stick with the latter, his power seemed to be telekenisis so he probably had a very strong mind. He also was this many thousand year old vampire that suposedly got more powerful as they aged. I don't think there would be any better choice in Nosgoth (at any time, remember they would have to pull him back in time before Raziel killed him as he surly would).

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Jenkins View Post
    I don't remember Ariel being consumed in Defiance. I think Raziel just talks to her when she's a ghost and she's still a ghost in SR1. Tural wasn't in SR1 so I think they did plan for him to show up earlier. I have to believe they didn't just release the game and suddenly thought "No! We forgot a vampire leutenant! Oh well, too late now..."
    ariel was consumed by the Reaver which turned into Spirit Reaver in Defiance. I think it is very probable that it was her future self from post-SR1 era which got drawn to the forge.

  19. #69
    I think I remember now, but wasn't SR1 in the "original" time-line or whatever, and BO2 was what followed after the changes in Defiance? That would mean Ariel wasn't devoured in SR1 because Raziel didn't purify the Wraith Blade that time.

  20. #70
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    Ariel still isn't devoured in SR1. SR1, despite all of the changes the SR2 paradox brought about in Defiance, leading through BO2, happens just the way it did, just as the core events of BO1 still happen the same exact way. Ariel being from the future getting devoured in Defiance means she's brought back from a point AFTER the events of SR1, after Raziel meets her, follows Kain, and eventually follows Kain through the portal tot he past. Then, or later, Ariel is drawn back in time.

  21. #71
    Anyone else think that maybe Turel had no real darker purpose being there? Azimuth was know to summon and conjure things. She could of very well went huminah huminah huminah oh crap what is that thing!!

    Oh and Ammon dont forget the Spirit Forge calls to ALL of the balance guardians both past and future. It could be that it only calls forth those that are dead. As for Ariel retaining her memories of anything that may or may not have been. We can safely asume that being bound to the pillars she would/could retain all of her memories much as Kain does.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by JanosAudron View Post
    Anyone else think that maybe Turel had no real darker purpose being there? Azimuth was know to summon and conjure things. She could of very well went huminah huminah huminah oh crap what is that thing!!

    Oh and Ammon dont forget the Spirit Forge calls to ALL of the balance guardians both past and future. It could be that it only calls forth those that are dead. As for Ariel retaining her memories of anything that may or may not have been. We can safely asume that being bound to the pillars she would/could retain all of her memories much as Kain does.
    that's probably how it went with azimuth, or she could have accidently pick her nose at the wrong time during a summons

    THAT'S WHAT I'M ON ABOUT!!! if ALL the balance guardians (past/future) are draw to the forge how can ariel still be there in SR!?
    and raz at the pillars (D) is set before SR and the spirit forge is set, again, before SR - how can raziel have met ariel is she was now in the Reaver? and if ariel somehow retained her memories...wouldn't it be possible to asume that she would have already known who raz was? if D is before SR?........ *head spins*
    oh, that brings up another thing - how did janos (SR2) know raziel's name!! the prophecy never mentioned names!? how did janos know if they'd never met??

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  23. #73
    THAT'S WHAT I'M ON ABOUT!!! if ALL the balance guardians (past/future) are draw to the forge how can ariel still be there in SR!?
    Because her spirit is drawn back to the Forge from the future after SR, see The Hylden's post. Summoning back an earlier version of Ariel would probably have caused a paradox (Raziel could never be influenced, etc).

    and raz at the pillars (D) is set before SR and the spirit forge is set, again, before SR - how can raziel have met ariel is she was now in the Reaver? and if ariel somehow retained her memories...wouldn't it be possible to asume that she would have already known who raz was? if D is before SR?........ *head spins*
    Ariel always believed Raziel was the Hylden Lord before Kain refused the sacrifice ("beware the Unspoken"), after which point I guess she realised he was Kain's lieutenant.

    oh, that brings up another thing - how did janos (SR2) know raziel's name!! the prophecy never mentioned names!? how did janos know if they'd never met??
    Maybe it did mention his name, we don't know.

  24. #74
    Wow, LoK has such a complex story.

  25. #75
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    He'd have heard of the Sarafan General, and maybe he knew it would be a vamplified version.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

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