View Poll Results: What do you think of the monsters?

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  • Like them, just call me frankenstein

    17 40.48%
  • Don't like them, gather the peasants together let's torch the castle

    25 59.52%
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Thread: Monsters!

Monsters!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    23

    Monsters!

    What does everyone think about the monsters in Deus Ex?

    I didn't really like them in the first game, even though they were essential to the plot. IMHO they took the game too far into the FPS style of things as you couldn't really use stealth tactics around them like you could with the humans.

    What does everyone else think?

  2. #2
    Trollslayer Guest
    The monsters weren't exactly essential to the plot; knowledge that there were DNA experiments occuring was one of the interesting things in the plot - the outcome (the monsters) wasn't that much. In fact, the availability of cloning methods, for instance, was more important to the plot than the monsters.

    I don't think the Greasels and Karkians in DX took the game "too far into the FPS" style. One could just avoid them, by going trough other routes, or put them to sleep (i also think the Cloak Augmentation could avoid them seeing the player). The one thing that took it too far in terms of FPSs was the amount of weapons with a lethal use - 17 weapons with lethal use (Pistol, Stealth Pistol, PS20, Plasma Rifle, GEP Gun, LAWs, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Sawed Off Shotgun, Assault Shotgun, Flame Thrower, LAMs, Combat Knives, Throwing Knives, regular Sword, the Crowbar and the Dragon's Tooth) and 6 with non-lethal use (Baton, Riot Prod, Pepper Spray, Scramble Grenade, EMP grenade and Gas Grenade). Plus the Crossbow, which could be used either for killing or putting to sleep. One could discard the Pepper Spray entirely, as its more of a slowing-down weapon and is not lethal; and discard the Scramble Grenade, as it didn't killed neither deactivated enemy robots, it merely made them switch sides - the EMP grenade still is considered as a non-lehtal takedown weapon as it deactivates droids (much like Tranquilizer darts do to humans). So i guess in total that would be 17 lethal weapons and 5 non-lethal weapons, plus 2 utility items (Pepper Spray and Scramble grenade), plus the Crossbow which belonged simultaneuously to the lethal and non-lethal weapon groups.

    For a game with many stealthy approaches to problems, it had too many weapons that dealt in lethal takedowns.

  3. #3
    Ok, what sort of weapons do not kill? If you know that, I would love the armies to use those weapons. Aint weapons supposed to be lethal? Isnt that the point in weapons?

  4. #4
    Trollslayer Guest
    Originally posted by Loreleye
    Ok, what sort of weapons do not kill? If you know that, I would love the armies to use those weapons. Aint weapons supposed to be lethal? Isnt that the point in weapons?
    No the point of weapons is not for them to be lethal, but to be effective.

    All i said was it presented too many weapons, with which to kill enemies. Given the game is more about stealth and not killing enemies, its a *fact* it gives you more ways, in terms of weapons, to dispose of them lethally than non-lethally.

    Here's an example - remember the US's disastrous peacekeeping mission in Somalia, back in 1993, when rioting civilians killed American soldiers (you know, the real events which were depicted in "Black Hawk Down")? Ever since that the US has been increasingly working towards in joint programs to develop non-lethal weapons (hence, why the Pentagon has a Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Program - but truth be told, these types of programs already existed after the Cold War). But given your comment, i suspect you'd be against it, as the point in weapons is to "be lethal".

    I don't know if you see the difference between using lethal weapons which have the potential to cripple, maim, and kill, and using non-lethal weapons which may minimize injuries and be as effective as non-lethal weapons, or not, but i see - specially if i had to make split second decisions between avoiding casualties and stopping criminals ('Ton situation, anyone?). Given that you were cajoled in DX1 because you used excessive force, that people would sometimes criticize you for killing civilians, i suppose its visible a concern by Spector to include real time choices in terms of fighting menaces such as quick and effective action in riots, or terrorist acts. Let me guess, if you were in charge of stopping a criminal running trough a crowded square, and were given the choice between a lethal and a non-lethal weapon, you'd be choosing the lethal one, because in your mind, all weapons are lethal (a decision which would probably end up in sacrificing various innocents just to get one person). Also, with that line of thought, that would mean the research and investment in non-lethal weapons being made by the US and Europe, for police and para-military organizations (like peace keeping task forces) should all be axed, because its just not worth the money trying to minimize injuries and casualties for something which would never become non-lethal

    In fact, go tell maimed war veterans that they shouldn't whine because they lost their legs, or because they can't move from the neck down, or because their friends died in battle - weapons are supposed to "be lethal"

    And again, i repeat - for a game which gave you much more points towards stealth and not killing enemies, it gave you too many lethal weapons.

    [EDIT: Fixed typo, added comment]

  5. #5

    Lightbulb

    Other than the fact we're supposed to be talking about monsters, I think that by having lots of weapons that were lethal Ion Storm allowed the game to appeal towards the normal FPS player. However you still have the option not to even pick up certain weapons for people that want to play a more skilled game. And finally if somone wants to make the game even harder they can do it all on realistic with non-lethal weapons.

    I just think that maybe by putting in all of these weapons they were trying to make the game appeal to people who just want to go beserk and kill anything that moves as well as to those of us who want to use stealth and non-violence to complete it.

    Back to monsters I don't think that they played any major roll in the story line but just added that extra bit to make the game more interesting, ie dodging them or killing an insanely strong karkian to get where you want to go.

  6. #6
    Trollslayer Guest
    Originally posted by PDenton
    And finally if somone wants to make the game even harder they can do it all on realistic with non-lethal weapons.
    Its great to do that, isn't it?

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Trollslayer
    Its great to do that, isn't it?
    oh yes. (eventually, one day, I might even try another way)
    I'm Back!

  8. #8
    Trollslayer Guest
    I'm inclined to try a melee JC in realistic.

    In fact im inclined to try the game again but its been giving me problems (probably because of my 128 Meg card, coupled with Direct X 9).

  9. #9
    challenge : a baton JC in realistic (good luck for the kark)

  10. #10
    Wel, Ok maybe not all weapons are lethal, but hey, you got some none lethal ways. But in real life there is much more lethal weapons than none!!!! I would love more none lethal silent weapons. I sure do!
    I think that if the other weapons in the game made it better since if they where not there it would be bored to have to run for ammo, and stuff to the none lethal. More ammo to none lethal would be lovely.
    I think that if you are a soldier in the us army, you are stupid, cuz you know you have to fight sometimes, im against armies and wars.

  11. #11
    And to not get off topic, I post something about monsters. They where nice, but to good. They could take to much damage. I loved that there where so few that made it far away from first person shooters!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    196
    Realistic is the only way to play.

    If you haven't yet, try a playthrough with only bladed weapons.

  13. #13
    Trollslayer Guest
    Originally posted by Loreleye
    Wel, Ok maybe not all weapons are lethal, but hey, you got some none lethal ways.
    Thats why i said there were both lethal, and non lethal, and that there were more lethal.

    All i said. :\

    In fact ive been doing some research on non-lethal weapons. Jeebus. Some of them are nasty. I would post some, and some theories around them for use in DX:IW, but i know Spector wouldn't even look at this board for comments/ideas :\

  14. #14
    well i agree this game had too much weapons that were not necessary. I know dx2 will not have so many weapons

    I did not like the idea of the monsters and i really really hated the spider bots those things suprised me at the part of the game where you have to shut down the generator im talking about in the middle of the game in china town not the end where u can distroy or disable the generators

  15. #15
    I have to disagree here
    DX1 didn't have too many weapons.

    true, you didn't use all of them BUT
    I personnaly used prod/tranq crossbow/baton/GEP/sniper rifle
    other used other weapons (in a thread, on the DX1 forum i think, there was a poll to ask which weapon each person prefered. I don't think any weapon hasn't been cited. (except maybe for the crowbar)

    so there weren't too many weapons in DX1, there was just enough weapon so you could adapt your weapons to your polaying style

  16. #16
    I didn't like them. Without good skills in heavy, it took two GEP rockets to kill a karkian. O'course, I had full melee skills instead, so perhaps I'd have better luck chancing a head-on encounter. The swimming karkian was no problem, though; must have been an earlier model.

    Greasels were annoying, especially since they damaged after dying and were hard to strike without crouching. With a good regen or toxic resistance rate, it wasn't that bad, but the goo stuck in my hair.

    The dogs (hehe, wrote "gods" the first time, might be a bit dysxelic) were all right, though. A taser shot sent them running, or a strike with the Dragon's Tooth took them out like a dream. The cats got underfoot, then they hissed and scratched; the rats were funny, but the prod did nothing against them.

    Does the cloak aug work against greys?

    greasy green greasels greasy green greasels greasy green greasels...

  17. #17
    maybe they added soo much weapons so us gamers can try to play the game in different ways

    I think the game that should have a lot of weapons is counterstrike condition zero

  18. #18
    Trollslayer Guest

    Post Once more, unto the breach dear friends...

    Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
    I have to disagree here
    DX1 didn't have too many weapons.

    true, you didn't use all of them BUT
    I personnaly used prod/tranq crossbow/baton/GEP/sniper rifle
    other used other weapons (in a thread, on the DX1 forum i think, there was a poll to ask which weapon each person prefered. I don't think any weapon hasn't been cited. (except maybe for the crowbar)

    so there weren't too many weapons in DX1, there was just enough weapon so you could adapt your weapons to your polaying style
    I said "too many lethal weapons", not "too many weapons" :\

  19. #19
    Originally posted by Picasso
    Realistic is the only way to play.

    If you haven't yet, try a playthrough with only bladed weapons.
    i totally agree with this one, i tried with just bladed weps before, and its a real challenge, but the feeling of satisfaction is great..like a ninja!!only augmented!!!

    is there a thread in the DX1 forum about various ideas to try for playin the game through, does anyone know? maybe there should be one started....?

  20. #20

    Re: Once more, unto the breach dear friends...

    Originally posted by Trollslayer
    I said "too many lethal weapons", not "too many weapons" :\
    I was replying to agent008 post, not yours, Trollslayer. he didn't make the difference.

    (and by the way, I could make the same answer. depends on the way you play the game. some prefer one shot at the time (pistol), or many (assault rifle), from far (sniper rifle), heavy shot (GEP, LAW), traps (LAMs), etc.

    there are not too many weapons, it's just that there is a lot of way to play the game, each with a best adapted weapon

  21. #21
    hay ginger_grunger you should be able to find a lot of dx forums that talk about different ways to play the game

  22. #22
    Trollslayer Guest

    Re: Re: Once more, unto the breach dear friends...

    Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
    I was replying to agent008 post, not yours, Trollslayer. he didn't make the difference.
    Aye, sorry about that,.

  23. #23
    YOU MUST CONTINUE SHOOTING PEOPLE WITH TRANQ DARTS UNTIL THEIR HEART STOPS

  24. #24
    i disliked the creatures. it tore me away from the near-reality of the world in which i played and simply reminded me that i was only playing a game...so close...

    as for the fact that there are more lethal weapons than non lethal, I agree with you trollslayer, i would love for there to be more nonlethal ways of removing the enemy. nets, martial arts, bean bag guns, flash nades, slippy-floor guns, sticky-floor guns, goop guns (for shooting in the face to blind them while they try to get it off.

    Same with hacking. while hacking allowed easier camera avoidance, it also gave players another lethal way of taking down enemies. perhaps a nonlethal way could be to trigger a false alarm to a different area of the map so that the enemies move to a different place. just an idea.

    I think the reason why there are more lethal weapons than non lethal is because, of all the varying ways of playing the game, it is not divided equally between lethal ways and nonlethal ways. I can think of lenty more lethal ways of playing the game than non lethal:

    Lethal:
    Sniper (Kill them from a distance silently. Uses sniper rifle and scoped weapons. Hard against bots)
    Heavy (Gib everyone and leave nothing but blood, bones and rubble. Uses LAWs, LAMs and GEPS. Can be hard to find enough ammo)
    Assault (Regular fps shooting style. Uses shotguns, assault rifles, pistols etc. May need to resort to other weapons such as heavy etc.)
    Melee (Play the game using bladed weapons only, Uses knives, swords and crowbars. Near impossible against bots)
    Pistol (Play the entire game using only your trusty, modded pistol for many instant-kill headshots. Uses one modded pistol. May need to resort to other weapons on occasion)
    Trap (Attract enemies and laugh as they gullably (sp?) follow you to their doom. Uses LAMs, Gas nades and EMPs. May be hard to find enough ammo)
    Hacker (Hack systems and set turrets, bots and creatures against their masters. Uses Computer Skill. Hard to do as not all enemies are in a place where this can be done)

    Nonlethal
    Knockout (Take out the enemy by concussing them. Uses riot prod, tranqs and EMPs. Impossible on those you 'have' to kill)
    Avoid (Keep in the shadows and don't let anyone know you exist. Uses silent running aug, and lots of tools and picks. Hard to do in places where there is no other option than to be seen.
    RUN (Dodge bullets as you escape enemy grasp, running too fast for them to catch up. Uses gas nades, pepper, riot prod and speed aug)

    7 lethal ways, 3 non lethal ways. IMO this is the main reason why there are more lethal weapons in the game. No doubt there are more ways than this but this is all i can think of for now. Feel free to add your own.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    23
    4 non leathal takedowns, they could have included a tranq rifle (the range on the crossbow was pathetic, why bother putting a scope on it?), bean bag rounds for the pistols/rifles, rubber baton ammo for the pump action shotty (along with slugs for leathal takedowns) and gas grenades for the GEP gun....

    the greasels were cool, the karakens were tough but the grays were stoopid, man I hated them, their radiation damage was just too strong, in versalife I let the gresels out, watched the carnage, then tried to let the grays out. seven quickloads later I managed it but man I hate them....

    yoink

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