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Thread: Ask yourself, are you even a True FF Fan?

Ask yourself, are you even a True FF Fan?

  1. #1
    My opinnion of course, but here me out. Also, I'm sure we've seen some of these threads before, but I'll try to be fair.

    I've been on many sites and threads over the years and it is amazing how things changed. I remember during the PS1 days, FFVII-IX. People on many different forums were clammoring for the days of yesteryear. They complained about how The new final fantasies (well 7 and 8) were not like what 1-6 were like. They complained that it was too modern, too punk (even though 8 was quite modern as well) and just wasn't the same. During the Final Fantasy X-12 days, We got a separation that developed, people lumped 7-12 together, and lumped 1-6 together and said, Sqare-Enix was going down hill and the series was going down hill. Now with Final fantasy XIII, and 14 I guess, I see a lot of people saying they wish square-enix would go back to the days of 1-9 and they didn't like 10-13, so basically 7-9 got lumped into the old final fantasies, and were the "good" old days, while now it is the bad old days.

    I also over the years saw similar complaints in other games and other genres. For example, People that liked older movies, claim new movies suck, they aren't the same, it's all CG, not enough character development and so forth. One thing I see a lot for example is, well Sales don't mean something is good. But I see this all the time in all genres. For example, Titanic broke all records, and people said, well it doesn't mean it is a good movie. So then what does it mean??? You can hype a movie, and get people to watch it in the opening weekend, maybe the second, but at some point, word will get around, and the movie will have tremendous losses week after week. But that didn't happen with Titanic, in fact, it's sales kept improving for like 3-4 weeks, and then very slowly decreased until it was the best selling movie in the box office of all time. In order to do this, you had to have a lot of people watch it 2-3, even 4 times. So while some of us may Not like it, doesn't mean a lot of people didn't. I saw same argument for Avatar 2 years ago. So while some people felt Final Fantasy 6 was better than 7, the fact that 7 still was the best selling PS1 game 10 years later on PSN, and the fact that people were still buying the re-released PC version with NO updates of any sorts, said a lot about the love the game had. Of course, those who were in the FF1-6 crowd, made it "cool" to hate on 7 and pump up 6, almost like a love for an anti-hero type of thing. Take a look at reaction to World of Warcraft 5-7 years ago. When it was in its heyday of having some 10-12 million subscribers, paying that 15 bucks per month, plus the cost of buying the game, Blizzard basically had a license to print 250 million dollars every year from that game. Of course, you had the haters come and say they prefered Guild Wars, or even some who felt FFXI was the better game and found reasons to trash on World of Warcraft. Another example, it became cool to hate of Madden, It iS currently cool to hate on Call of Duty. Activision and the 10s of millions of people dont' really care, nor does the reviewers as they keep rating it high, the sales remain sky high, and activision keeps raking in some 400+ million dollars each year on that franchise. Which brings me to Final Fantasy XIII, a game that actually sold pretty well, but people said they hated it. A common complaint of the Maddens, the Call of Duty games is, well it is the same game year after year.

    So I'll tackle this part. Non-Fans of Madden and Call of Duty say it is the same game with a new skin, new characters, and they don't like it. Well, Square-Enix has always been against releasing the same final fantasy games over and over again and just slapping a new number to it. (they they love re-releases). FFI and II were similar, but 3 was quite different. IV was different, 5 was different, and so forth. Each game is different. So despite Square-Enix taking risk giving us something different, what we get is the anti Call of Duty affect and that is, people are clammng for extreme similarities to the old games. We get, well 7 isn't like the first 6. 8 and its junction system isn't like 7 or the first 6. 10, well, that was quite different, we can control summons, and well no true overworld so well people complained. XI is online, a necessary was to make consistent money, something that is important in business, but fans dont' care, some will say well, it is not a proper final fantasy. XII comes, and well the summons aren't traditional, the setting isn't, the active time battle system that was in 1-10 was quite different in 12 so people complained. XIII brought it back, but well, that game is too linear, no overworld, so people yet again complained.

    Another complaint I hear is well the characters don't have personality in recent games. Again, FF1-3 didn't have personality either, but no one complained. V had marginal personality, but again, people lump it with the love of the 1st 6, and Now lump it with the first 9 so I guess that got a pass. People complained Squall was to brooding, but now people seem to forget that. I hear Tidus annoyed the heck of people so they hated 10, Vaan is too effinate, so they hated 12. People complained abotu 13's characters all over the place. Everyone seems to want a regular everyday hero, but then you will fall back to having essentially the same game over and over again. Many people hated Shinji in Evangelion for example, they want heroes that doesn't complain, goes out and fight, sort of like Naruto, but in reality, Naruto has like a Man crush for Sasuke, despite Sasuke clearly telling him, he has his own agenda, and that he was an avenger and so forth, He (Sakura also) keep trying to save him, despite sasuke trying to kill them. In real life, people simple don't act like Naruto, and they probably would act more like Shinji. He has daddy issues, like many people do, and at 13 or so, why would he be jumping into a humanized robot of sort and basically save the world and we are suppose to just wish that he just gladly does it without any issues.

    Another complaint I hear is well, now FF is all about the graphics. Well news flash, Squaresoft/Enix has always had a hard on for that. Final Fantasy VI for example basically maxed out the SNES, we even had that 3Dish scene in FFVI. The playstation basically gave them the freedom to finally actually implement many of the things they wanted to do, but was limited previously. The producers and directors said it themselves. So since then, Final fantasies have always tried to get the most out of the system they are in.

    Well the basic tone so far has been where fans have gone wrong, but what about Square.


    Well, they have a lot of blame as well. First, Squaresoft and later square-enix was on a role releasing final fantasies quite readly until they got to FFXII. Previously, each game was released the following year, or 2-3 years later. I think the longest gap was between FFVI and final fantasy VII (1994-1997, for a 3 year gap). Then we got a 3 year gap between FFX and FFXI, then we got a 2 year gap between 11 and 12, but 12 was in development for like 5 years. Then we got a 3.5 year gap between 12 and 13, and 13 also was in development for like 4-5 years. 14 comes along a year and a half later in basically alpha state and had to be retweaked in such a way that this new one coming up is probably what 14 really shoudl have been, resulting in some 4 year gap between 13 and 14. Same basic theme with the mega delay of Versu 13. This isn't just Square-Enix with that problem. the general japanese video game community has had a terrible time switching to the HD era. For example, how long was Metal Gear Solid 4 in development??? 5 is still not out, Rising is still not out. Clearly something is up because, we've had like 3 or 4 Gears of Wars, We've had like 4 Forza games to the 1 Gran Turismo 5 (a mind blowingly 6 year gap). We've had 3 mass effects, 4 Halos, Tons of Maddens and Call of Duties (as mentioned above) and so forth. The end result in this problem with coding is, well we couldn't have a overworld, or true cities and towns in Final Fantasy XIII because it was too hard and would have taken too much time. Well, you get what you deserve then, cause what we got was a straight line from one place to the next.

    Square mentioned that they intentionally made Vaan effeminate because well, Ashley in Vagrant Story was a middle aged tough guy and that game didn't sell as well, so they must go against that norm. They essentially forgot that Vagrant Story was released at the end of the PS1's days, when many people already had dreamcast, and the PS2 was looming. Plus, it never got nearly the same advertising blitz a final fantasy gets, and it is ok if a game doesn't initially sell well, if it is well received, the good will is always good for business, and re-releases that generate money, and same goes for HD/graphical updates. I'm sure a similar approach was taken for Tidus, and same goes for Hope and so forth. It's funny, with Vaan, the story really isn't about him. The story clearly centers around Ashe, and if you wanted to make a case, you could say Brasch, but not Vaan.

    They are re-releasing the wrong games. Square has re-released FF1-4 a zillion times now. I actually liked 5 the most out of the first 6, but other than the ps1 and GBA version, no true graphical updated version was re-released. People in the VI camp also would love a graphical re-release, in the same mold as what FF1 got with the PSP anniversary game. What about 8 and 9 re-release?? 10 seem to be getting an HD update, but FFX already looked "good enough" to not want a re-release, and quite frankly, no one asked for it to be re-released.

    Which brings me to the elephant in the room, FFVII re-release. Lord knows people have been asking for that. Other than easy money, I don't know why square-enix simply rereleased the 1998 game over again with no treatment to anything. They aren't stupid, they know what people want, but yet they pull this out. Now, fine, I get it, to remake FFVII in these HD consoles would be quite the challenge and quite frankly, Square-Enix hasn't proven to be capable of coding in the HD era, and the game would either have a production time of like 6 years, or it would be linear or have some other restriction on it. I get that, but then WHY coudln't they do something like Bootleg or Ultima version that is floating around on the web. Bootleg's version for example took out all of the midi sound and gave it better more orchestral sounds. They tweaked the textures so that it is of higher resolution. They got rid of the blockiness of the 7 characters, and generally did a fine job. Now if they can do it, and they don't have full access to the code, or the man power to do all of that, then why couldn't square do something similar. It wouldn't be a true remake, as it would just be improved textures, or removed jaggies like emulators have been able to do for years. Rule number 1, you always give fans what they want, and square is brain dead on this (Crono Trigger update or new game anyone??).


  2. #2

    Actually, coding isn't really the problem. The reason Final Fantasy XIII took so long to come out is that it was originally being developed for the PS2, and then had to be re-built from the ground up when the PS3 released and they decided to make the switch. XIII-2 was released only about 1.5-2 years later, and Lightning Returns will be released approximately a year after XIII-2 if the projected release dates are correct. Versus didn't go into proper, full production until about two years ago: Square announced the project early, but the project head is Nomura Tetsuya who has his own Kingdom Hearts series to work on. Most of Nomura's focus has been on the various KH games the last six years, and with DDD released the only thing that will hold back the release of Versus is their team trying to make absolutely certain the game lives up to the amount of hype fans of the series have built up. They said as much a short while back, in fact.





    As for a potential re-release of VII, this has also already been covered by Square. If they were to release a graphically updated VII, they would also want to update the systems, story, and add new features/remove features they didn't feel were particularly useful. Because players have had such a strong, negative reaction to change in the recent Final Fantasy games they feel it would be better to just let people enjoy the old version than risk alienating old fans for 'ruining' their beloved classic. Final Fantasy V and VI were re-released on the GBA (with story and graphics updates, from my understanding), but yes they could probably stand for a newer release. Final Fantasy X HD, though, is a game that has been asked for. The major reason for this is that it's a PS2 game, and can't be played on the majority of PS3s. Since X was a new/modern enough game that Square didn't feel they would need to alter the system, it was the natural choice.





    Of course, that isn't to say that Square Enix hasn't made mistakes. I'm just saying, I think you're a little off there.

  3. #3

    ok ill try to be unbiased FF13 sold well because everyone was waiting for the game and when they bought it and played it after waiting 4 years for the game to get released they were dissapointed with the game itself because of the lack of stuff put in the game it was the first final fantasy game that restricted everything you could do which felt like a downgrade usually you add new features to improve a game not take away features to improve a game that just doesn't work


    now lets address COD the game sells because its a game that anyone can pick up and its a pvp based which most of NA/EU are into guns and shooting people so they already grabbed the audiences attention then they overly hype the games grabbing attention again most people dont play COD because its good most say it sux but most play it for the pvp aspect and friends if COD was single player only the game wouldn't have half its fans i have 50 friends on psn who own COD who never finished the story mode how can you say its a good game if people use it just 4 the enjoyment of killing other players?


    lets address the movie the titanic the reason for its sales is people want to own a piece of history quite common for people to want to own a piece of history in this case people want to own the footage of the titanics sinking because its history weather the movie is good or bad history sells

  4. #4

    Haha i guess your name is "Da" ?

    Anyway, i REALLY enjoyed what you have had to say, it brings true light onto a very touchy subject amongst Final Fantasy fans. Your post is not only accurate but enjoyable to read, and very well written (minus a few spelling errors)

    I highly highly commend your effort spent writting this and its only my hope more and more fans read this and understand the truth behind it. Every person is different and going to have a different opinion but there are also facts that are not arguable, and for the most part it seems you focused mostly only on fact and not opinion.

    Major kudos... or should i say Kupos? :P

  5. #5



    Actually, coding isn't really the problem. The reason Final Fantasy XIII took so long to come out is that it was originally being developed for the PS2, and then had to be re-built from the ground up when the PS3 released and they decided to make the switch. XIII-2 was released only about 1.5-2 years later, and Lightning Returns will be released approximately a year after XIII-2 if the projected release dates are correct. Versus didn't go into proper, full production until about two years ago: Square announced the project early, but the project head is Nomura Tetsuya who has his own Kingdom Hearts series to work on. Most of Nomura's focus has been on the various KH games the last six years, and with DDD released the only thing that will hold back the release of Versus is their team trying to make absolutely certain the game lives up to the amount of hype fans of the series have built up. They said as much a short while back, in fact.





    As someone who works in a business, the only thing that matters is results. How you get the results is the daily work of various division heads and so forth. So if you had most of the game made and then scrapped it and then had to start over, resulting in a 4-5 year gap, then someone messed up. If most of the work was done, then release it on the PS2, nothing stopped square-enix from just releasing Final Fantasy IV complete on the PSP, despite it being a dead portable in all but the Japanese market earlier this year. Plus I remember buying Final fantasy 9 around the same time the PS2 was released, so again, squaresoft wasn't scared of releasing a major final fantasy on an aging system then with the new console being released, so why the change. Also, if Tetsuya Nomura was too busy, then maybe he shouldn't head so many projects. And even if I buy all of them, that still doesn't change the fact that new proper final fantasies were released pretty much yearly until 2001, and then from there we had huge gaps with each release. And when we see similar things happened in the transition from PS2 to PS3 with a lot of other japanese companies, I think it is a fair conclusion to say that Square had diff coding with this transition, especially for the PS3.




    As for a potential re-release of VII, this has also already been covered by Square. If they were to release a graphically updated VII, they would also want to update the systems, story, and add new features/remove features they didn't feel were particularly useful. Because players have had such a strong, negative reaction to change in the recent Final Fantasy games they feel it would be better to just let people enjoy the old version than risk alienating old fans for 'ruining' their beloved classic. Final Fantasy V and VI were re-released on the GBA (with story and graphics updates, from my understanding), but yes they could probably stand for a newer release. Final Fantasy X HD, though, is a game that has been asked for. The major reason for this is that it's a PS2 game, and can't be played on the majority of PS3s. Since X was a new/modern enough game that Square didn't feel they would need to alter the system, it was the natural choice.





    Again, I don't buy that. Sony sold 154 million PS2s. It is the best selling console of all time. And it was just 1 generation ago. This is not like trying to play on a system that came out 17 years ago in the PS1, or a system that came out 21 years ago in the SNES. I have a fat PS2 so I don't have to worry about backward compatibility, but I'm pretty sure most people either have a PS2 or could cheaply borrow or buy a PS2 if they wanted to play FFX again. But, even If I give you that. It still doesn't change the fact that FF1 and 2 got a GBA upgrade and then got a PSP upgrade. FF3 had a DS upgrade. FFIV just had an awesome PSP upgrade. BUT yet Square seems shy about final fantasies V and VI getting a true upgrade. The GBA version of those games simply gave us the japanese difficulty, and improved translation, and minor tweak. It never got the final fantasy IV complete treatment. And that isn't even addressing the fact that PEOPLE WANT the FF7 upgrade, few wanted a FFX upgrade, but we got that anyways. You say, well some did. Well how about this, Few wanted a FF13-2, and even fewer wanted a FF13-3, but Square gave it to us anyways, but yet spends 10000 years to release a new numbered final fantasy, and when they do, it is crippled. And last thing, I don't know what Square couldn't do something similar to what the Mod community did with Final Fantasy VII (or any for that matter). If you don't want to do a major HD upgrade, why not then pull a FFIV complete and change nothing or very little to the code and just do a graphical boost. Like going from PS1 to PS2 level. That would be in line with what they did for the upgrades of FF1-4, without it being some mind blowling PS3 or now PS4 level graphical and audio (voice acting and sound) upgrade that people want. Or if you are still scared of ruining the cherished FFVII, then practice with 8 and 9 first. Do them, see how it turns out, and then go from there.





    ok ill try to be unbiased FF13 sold well because everyone was waiting for the game and when they bought it and played it after waiting 4 years for the game to get released they were dissapointed with the game itself because of the lack of stuff put in the game it was the first final fantasy game that restricted everything you could do which felt like a downgrade usually you add new features to improve a game not take away features to improve a game that just doesn't work


    Now, I blame square for FF13 and 14. But i also blame people for wanting change, but at the same time wanting the same thing. I have no problems with FFVII trying something new, I have no problem with FFX, in fact that is my third favorite final fantasy (i really like FFV's job system). I also enjoyed 12. I prefered a true active time battle system, but again, it was a change. And I actually loved the story, it's warring factions and political integrations were probably the best in the entire series. Overall though, it was a middle of the pack Final fantasy for me. But, fans though, they hate changes from 7-9. Then hated changes from 10-12, and began to like 7-9 again. So I give them FFXIII, but the prior ones, I think were unfounded. As for sales, that will be discussed in the section below.




    now lets address COD the game sells because its a game that anyone can pick up and its a pvp based which most of NA/EU are into guns and shooting people so they already grabbed the audiences attention then they overly hype the games grabbing attention again most people dont play COD because its good most say it sux but most play it for the pvp aspect and friends if COD was single player only the game wouldn't have half its fans i have 50 friends on psn who own COD who never finished the story mode how can you say its a good game if people use it just 4 the enjoyment of killing other players?


    lets address the movie the titanic the reason for its sales is people want to own a piece of history quite common for people to want to own a piece of history in this case people want to own the footage of the titanics sinking because its history weather the movie is good or bad history sells


    Again, I don't buy that. We talk about hey, guns are cool, that is why people in the west buy it. Well then why didn't unreal tournament blow up, why didn't Quake blow up. Why didn't Doom blow up. They had their fans. I for one played a hell of a lot of unreal tournament in college, but it still was niche. Apparently people didn't like guns in the 80s and 90s as Mario, Zelda, Madden, Tecmo Bowl, Sonic, Street Fighter, Streets of Rage, and a hell of a lot of RPGs including Final Fantasy were the top sellers. I hear a lot of JRPG vs. Western RPGs or vs. shooters, but too me, I see shooters making great strides. Their games got better, either via campaign or online. You see, Unreal tournament's campaign was non existent. Some games were meant to be played online or with other people. For example, we really don't care too much of the storyline in Street fighter or any fighter. And if you are in that community, like I also am, check Eventhubs or shoryuken.com for example, no one talks about single player. it is about playing online, offline at arcades or locally with friends, or doing the tournament scene like Evo. So Call of Duty's off line is an afterthought, if Activision realize this, and spends most of their year working on how to get the online system to get better. And in that sense they've made great strides. For western RPGs, we got Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout, Dragon Age Origin, we basically got a glut of great western RPGs that generally improved with each itteration (not dragon age sadly, but at least Bioware tried something different and I respect them for that). JRPGs on the other had, they CLEARLY got worse, was more crippled, was less open, with less exploring. It simply is not the same. Take's Squaresofts run from 1994-2001 for example. The Mana games, Mario RPG, Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VII, Parasite Eve, games, Vagrant Story, The SaGa games (those were mediocre), Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy IX, Xenogears (perhaps the best game of the bunch), Final Fantasy Tactics, Tactic Ogre, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Chross, and Finally Final Fantasy X. And compare that with the last 7 years....even if we include Enix side of things and include Dragon Quest... it is still quite poor. Many of the other companies have also released descent, but not epic RPGs. So do we blame peple for flocking to where the games are actually good and improving...ie... Shooters and Western Rpgs.


    I don't see the titanic reference. I want to be part of history and watch the movie in droves in the theaters 3 or 4 times???? Well then, why didn't they do the same for Malcom X?? or this Abe Lincoln movie that will come out this year, or Glory?? or 1492 back in 1992, or any native american movie. What about JFK with Keven Coster, why didn't that shatter box offices??? Plus, they still could have just bought the DVD, but instead people chose to watch it, and keep wathching it and keep keep watching it over and over again. That movie stuck around in the theaters for like 5 months. At some point, you can't say hey the movie sucks, well you can since it is your opinion, but clearly MOST peope didn't say it sucks. SAme goes with call of duty. like I said, people hate the popular things. I've seen it for decades. Well Star Wars wasn't that good, the acting was terrible, I was too young, but i've heard that is what was mentioned back in the late 70s and early 80s. Well, Titanic is overrated, or well, Madden is the same every year and 2K is better, or well Halo is j ust an average shooter, play PC shooters and you'll see tons are better than halo. Well Final Fantasy VII isn't very good, play the older ones and you'll see plenty games that are better. Or well Call of Duty sucks. Same thing, it is like the counter culture movement. TRUST ME... People will stop buying your games when it sucks. after a while, megaman stopped selling well. After a while, Sonic Games stoped selling well. After a while, Street Fighter and its offshoots stopped selling well. (i remember buying the terrible capcom fighting evolution and that was the last straw for me). SF4 was good and low and behold, people bought SF again, and low and behold the fighting game community is back. People stoped buying RPGs, because they weren't as good. Marketting can only do so much before the realities kick in. Final Fantasy the movie, despite the hey days of massive love for final fantasy and despite the marketing, was a bomb in the box office, because it simply wasn't that good. We all sometimes think that there are a lot of Fireflys out there. Games or series that "is good" but the mass just doesn't understand how good it was and failed, and the community keeps it alive because it truly was good. These situations are usually few and far between.

  6. #6

    Da, let me ask you.. have you played and beaten Final Fantasy XIII?


    Also have you played Final Fantasy XIV? as I read more of your replies, I seem to think you have not done either, which is disheartening because you make a lot of claim on those two games.. I personally have my own opinions of those games as anyone else, but i know i've played and beaten XIII and a current legacy holder of XIV.


    I would say XIV is one of the best Final Fantasy's and XIII has the best story of any Final Fantasy... i would name reasons, but the purpose of this reply is to ask if you have played them.

  7. #7

    Starting over doesn't mean someone screwed up. Also, I never said Square was afraid of releasing on an old-gen system. I said they decided to make the switch, which is what they did. They considered the options, and decided on a PS3 release instead. The PS3 architecture is WILDLY different from that of the PS2, which is why the majority of PS3 are not backwards compatible. The game had to be rebuilt using that architecture, and let's not forget that Square wanted to take the time to finish developing Crystal Tools to make their future PS3 efforts easier. Throwing all of that aside, though, XIII actually only took around three years to be released after XII (3.5ish) despite a total of five years development time. (Keep in mind that XII was in development for 6 years, starting in 2001) Final Fantasy XII was released March 16th of 2006 whereas XIII was released December 17th of 2009. (And these numbers are if you choose to discard Revenant Wings, the XII-2 game released in April of 2007)





    Remember also that there was a significant gap between the release of VI and the release of VII (3 years in fact, with VI being released April 2nd of 1994 and VII being released January 31st of 1997) as the company learned the ins and outs of the new technology and experimented with a whole new way of doing things. As for Final Fantasy IX, that game's development began before Final Fantasy VIII was even finished and Square wasn't even sure it would be FF IX until just a few months before its release. (They had cited the game's departure from the more realistic VIII graphics as potential reason for it to be a subline game, like Tactics or Crystal Chronicles were later) From my understanding, they decided not to push it to the PS2 because they didn't feel doing so would make it perform any better, and they were worried that re-developing it would cost them 4 or more years of time.





    From what I've found, a significant factor in the development times of Final Fantasy games is that prior to the release of X, many of these games were started at around the same time, or the next game in the series was started before the completion of its predecessor project. In the economy of today, with the tastes of of 'new' gamers changing and old fans (as you've pointed out) being unwilling to accept major changes in the future, starting a new game in the middle of the previous game's development is a bit risky. On top of that, since Final Fantasy X Square has been wanting more and more to release multiple games in the same world and storyline instead of continuing with one-shots. If you're going to create a sequel to a game, it only makes sense to wait until the reviews come in for the first game so you know what to change and tweak next time around. (In my opinion you should also be taking into account the various re-makes of older games and the subline/non-numbered Final Fantasy games, which paints a somewhat different picture.)





    Final Fantasy X was released in 2001, yes it's true. But this release was very late in the year, December 20th as a matter of fact. The direct sequel X-2 was released March 13th of 2003, a year and three months later. (Not that far over the mark of previous Final Fantasies, and owing partly to the fact that its development began several months after the release of X) Also released during 2003 were Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, and Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles. (Final Fantasy XI, to backtrack slightly, was actually released in 2002 before seeing an expansion in 2004, and then another in 2006 just before the release of XII.) There was an almost exactly 3-year gap between this batch of games and Final Fantasy XII, and the only thing my research could turn up was that it took them longer to create a more open world map than previous Final Fantasy games and build the battle system which was unlike anything they'd done previously. Still, though, my point stands. XIII-2 was released about a year and a half after XIII, and Lightning Returns will be released almost exactly a year after that. The gap between X-2 and XII, then XII and XIII (again if you discard XII-2) were long release gaps, it's true. But since then their speed has picked up again, and there are numerous non-numbered games that they have released in the meantime.





    On the subject of Nomura Tetsuya, I would agree that Square shouldn't appoint someone as the head of a project when they have their own game series to work on. In this case, though, it's understandable: Nomura's Kingdom Hearts series broke away from the turn-based battles of FInal Fantasy in a big way and although they involve Disney characters they still keep the feeling of Final Fantasy in them. Square has been wanting to refresh the Final Fantasy battle system for a while now; They experiemented with a new style in XII and it wasn't that well recieved. They experiement again in XIII, and that wasn't particularly well recieved either. A more action-oriented, free-run system is right up Nomura's developmental alley, and he's the best man for the job to my knowledge. They could have made a different choice, but I can at least respect this one.





    I can't say much to your insistance about V, VI, or VII. I agree that V and VI should get another update, and while I would love to see an updated VII I see where Square is coming from. You clearly don't, and it doesn't sound like you want to. I agree it would be nice if they were to open VII to a modding community, but that just doesn't seem likely.





    Sheer number of units sold isn't the only factor here. Support for them is practically non-existent, games on them look terrible on newer tvs (one of the big drives behind remakes), and almost everyone I know has either sold their PS2 or it broke long ago. I have a slim myself, (and my roommate has a fat) but they are very old and the disc readers are beginning to die. Even if there were a working PS2 for every person that wanted to play X over again, though, the same thing could be said about Final Fantasy V and VI since they were graphically updated and remade on the GBA. (And yes, the graphics ARE updated. Not as pretty as the PSP remakes of 1 and 2, but they were updated the same as the rest of the GBA re-releases) Nintendo DS systems are still backwards compatible with the GBA too, so you don't even have to have that system still around. Final Fantasy IV was released on both the DS and the PSP, in fact, as was Final Fantasy III. PS was the only one that got IV: The After Years, but still. It's not as if they aren't willing, it's likely just a matter of time. As a last note on this particular subject, you say that few people wanted X HD. I have heard nothing but excitement for it, personally, and I have to wonder how much your statements are colored by your own wishes for future remakes.





    I won't get started on the subject of XIII, except to say that I place a heavy amount of blame on both the fans and Square Enix. I enjoyed the game, as I have most Final Fantasy games, despite whatever I personally percieve as flaws.

  8. #8

    That's nice dear.

  9. #9

    Originally Posted by Daniolaut


    Da, let me ask you.. have you played and beaten Final Fantasy XIII?


    Also have you played Final Fantasy XIV? as I read more of your replies, I seem to think you have not done either, which is disheartening because you make a lot of claim on those two games.. I personally have my own opinions of those games as anyone else, but i know i've played and beaten XIII and a current legacy holder of XIV.


    I would say XIV is one of the best Final Fantasy's and XIII has the best story of any Final Fantasy... i would name reasons, but the purpose of this reply is to ask if you have played them.






    Leafelen, I'll address your section in a post on it's own.





    I've played and beaten final fantasy XIII. I know the game. Basically, at the end, it was Fang and Vanille stealing the show. I think they ended up frozen?? but I'm not sure, it was a while ago. Final fantasy XIII had great visuals. I didn't mind the story too much, but felt many parts of the story wasn't explained as well as it could. It had a lack luster final boss, afterall it was like some machine thing/orphan. I didn't like the who Lacie, Falcie thing much, but again at the end, it turned out kinda nice, at least with the revelation of the past that Fang and Vanille had. Snow basically had a one track mind and that was to protect Lightnings sister. Lighting was a tough heroine so I liked her, and Satch was like the most down to earth person in the whole group. I'll have to tun on my PS3 to see my total hours, but after I beat it, I didn't return to it.





    I didn't not play FF XIII-2. That should tell you something since I did play X-2. Plus, when I heard it basically had just two characters and you had to recruit monsters, I wasn't too interested.





    I briefly played FFXIV on someone elses computer, but haven't given it much thought. In the same way i didn't give XI much thought either since MMORPGs aren't for me. Doesn't mean I didn't keep track of what was happening in the MMORPG world and the general game world though. I have enough friends who have spent thousands of hours in some of these games (mostly WoW).





    FFXIV should be better, but it didn't take a legacy owner of that game to realize that many things was wrong with that game, and when the PS3 version was scrapped, and the free period for the PC was indefinitely extended, and Square Enix bosses stating quite frankly that that game damaged the final fantasy brand, then it is clear what happened. But, you gotta be a student of history. I propose that Square-Enix was blinded by what the fans were saying about 13 and to a lesser extent 12, and then released 14 arrogantly and had to be put in their place.

  10. #10
    Wow.

  11. #11

    Originally Posted by imported_Leaferian


    Starting over doesn't mean someone screwed up. Also, I never said Square was afraid of releasing on an old-gen system. I said they decided to make the switch, which is what they did. They considered the options, and decided on a PS3 release instead. The PS3 architecture is WILDLY different from that of the PS2, which is why the majority of PS3 are not backwards compatible. The game had to be rebuilt using that architecture, and let's not forget that Square wanted to take the time to finish developing Crystal Tools to make their future PS3 efforts easier. Throwing all of that aside, though, XIII actually only took around three years to be released after XII (3.5ish) despite a total of five years development time. (Keep in mind that XII was in development for 6 years, starting in 2001) Final Fantasy XII was released March 16th of 2006 whereas XIII was released December 17th of 2009. (And these numbers are if you choose to discard Revenant Wings, the XII-2 game released in April of 2007)


    Again, results are what matters, the game was in development forever. Previous final fantasies were developed together as well, same with stuff like Xenogears and FFVIII, in fact, Xenogears suffered as a result and the whole second disc was gimped. In the end, Xenogears was the superior game. Yes I probably should have extended my timeline to FFXI, since it was a year + after FFX.





    Remember also that there was a significant gap between the release of VI and the release of VII (3 years in fact, with VI being released April 2nd of 1994 and VII being released January 31st of 1997) as the company learned the ins and outs of the new technology and experimented with a whole new way of doing things. As for Final Fantasy IX, that game's development began before Final Fantasy VIII was even finished and Square wasn't even sure it would be FF IX until just a few months before its release. (They had cited the game's departure from the more realistic VIII graphics as potential reason for it to be a subline game, like Tactics or Crystal Chronicles were later) From my understanding, they decided not to push it to the PS2 because they didn't feel doing so would make it perform any better, and they were worried that re-developing it would cost them 4 or more years of time.


    Like I alluded before, Square has always released other games concurrent to their final fantasy games. They had the Mana series, Parasite eve series, Tactics and other Final fantasy spin offs , xenogears, and chrono series. despite that, the final fantasies were quality games. In this day an age, not only has final fantasy gone down hill, but their entire lineup with the exception of Dragon Quest. And it stayed good because it kept with the same tradition. For example, where is this generation's xenogears, where is this generation's chrono trigger or where is that series in general. Where is a new tactics game??? In fact, I don't even see why they don't release the updated PSP games on PSN as well for the PS3??? Why the love for handhelds so much???





    From what I've found, a significant factor in the development times of Final Fantasy games is that prior to the release of X, many of these games were started at around the same time, or the next game in the series was started before the completion of its predecessor project. In the economy of today, with the tastes of of 'new' gamers changing and old fans (as you've pointed out) being unwilling to accept major changes in the future, starting a new game in the middle of the previous game's development is a bit risky. On top of that, since Final Fantasy X Square has been wanting more and more to release multiple games in the same world and storyline instead of continuing with one-shots. If you're going to create a sequel to a game, it only makes sense to wait until the reviews come in for the first game so you know what to change and tweak next time around. (In my opinion you should also be taking into account the various re-makes of older games and the subline/non-numbered Final Fantasy games, which paints a somewhat different picture.)


    I defended Square for trying new things. It became clear that Final Fantasy was willing to try new things, while Dragonquest stayed conservative. I'm fine with that. Obviously there is a limit, for example, you can't turn FF into a shooter, then it wouldn't be an RPG. But I defended 12 all the time. Fans shouldn't be so anti change, but at the same time diss games and game companies that are adverse to risk by changing their game soo much. I don't consider off shoots to be in the same context as proper final fantasy games. So whether they call it crystal chornicales, or origins, or legend, or tactics, or X-2 and XIII-2, I view it differently. To me at least tactics was a diff game that used the FF name for notoriety, but to me X-2 and 13-2 are just cash cows, as were the FFVII off shoots.





    Final Fantasy X was released in 2001, yes it's true. But this release was very late in the year, December 20th as a matter of fact. The direct sequel X-2 was released March 13th of 2003, a year and three months later. (Not that far over the mark of previous Final Fantasies, and owing partly to the fact that its development began several months after the release of X) Also released during 2003 were Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, and Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles. (Final Fantasy XI, to backtrack slightly, was actually released in 2002 before seeing an expansion in 2004, and then another in 2006 just before the release of XII.) There was an almost exactly 3-year gap between this batch of games and Final Fantasy XII, and the only thing my research could turn up was that it took them longer to create a more open world map than previous Final Fantasy games and build the battle system which was unlike anything they'd done previously. Still, though, my point stands. XIII-2 was released about a year and a half after XIII, and Lightning Returns will be released almost exactly a year after that. The gap between X-2 and XII, then XII and XIII (again if you discard XII-2) were long release gaps, it's true. But since then their speed has picked up again, and there are numerous non-numbered games that they have released in the meantime.


    Again off shoots. It is quite easy to release games of the same engine over again. Often times what happens is that you have a lot of unused material. You could make a major Final Fantasy XIII ultimate edition release, for which you might have minimal sales, you could release it as DLC, or you can whip up a quick story and sell it as a whole new disc. Again, FFXIII sold nearly 7 million copies, so that gave square the incentive to continue, despite already planing for a Fabula Nova Crystalis with a three game series already (i know they weren't fully connected but still). FFXIII-2 sold over 2 million copies so hey, why not go down that path a third time. And I know why they did it, Final Fantasy XIV was a disaster , FFXV is far away, so why not go down that well again.





    On the subject of Nomura Tetsuya, I would agree that Square shouldn't appoint someone as the head of a project when they have their own game series to work on. In this case, though, it's understandable: Nomura's Kingdom Hearts series broke away from the turn-based battles of FInal Fantasy in a big way and although they involve Disney characters they still keep the feeling of Final Fantasy in them. Square has been wanting to refresh the Final Fantasy battle system for a while now; They experiemented with a new style in XII and it wasn't that well recieved. They experiement again in XIII, and that wasn't particularly well recieved either. A more action-oriented, free-run system is right up Nomura's developmental alley, and he's the best man for the job to my knowledge. They could have made a different choice, but I can at least respect this one.


    I'm fine with Kingdom hearts, but again, he was stretched too thin. Maybe if they still had the Xenogears and Yasinori Mitsuda (for musci) crew, they could have had a whole other crew available to make games. After Monolith kinda snuffed out the remaining Xenosaga games and severely affected the developement of the last two games, maybe some of that crew could return. My guess is, the exit from Square wasn't a good one so that is out.





    I can't say much to your insistance about V, VI, or VII. I agree that V and VI should get another update, and while I would love to see an updated VII I see where Square is coming from. You clearly don't, and it doesn't sound like you want to. I agree it would be nice if they were to open VII to a modding community, but that just doesn't seem likely.


    Go look at the different between FF V and VI on the SNES and GBA again. The difference is like saying an XBOX 360 game looks better than a PS3 game and vice versa. the point is, it wasn't a graphical upgrade. Not only that, the sound was actually worse on the GBA version. Graphical upgrades are FF 1 on GBA and the PSP. or FFIV on the PSP last year. These are upgrades. For example, Final Fantasy VII on the PC isn't really an upgrade. You have miniscule improvements just due to the PC being more powerful than PS1 at that time, but not a redo of the game's textures and color and sprites/or polygons and so forth. And even that game sounded a bit worse on the PC. Mods luckily have taken that negative away.





    Sheer number of units sold isn't the only factor here. Support for them is practically non-existent, games on them look terrible on newer tvs (one of the big drives behind remakes), and almost everyone I know has either sold their PS2 or it broke long ago. I have a slim myself, (and my roommate has a fat) but they are very old and the disc readers are beginning to die. Even if there were a working PS2 for every person that wanted to play X over again, though, the same thing could be said about Final Fantasy V and VI since they were graphically updated and remade on the GBA. (And yes, the graphics ARE updated. Not as pretty as the PSP remakes of 1 and 2, but they were updated the same as the rest of the GBA re-releases) Nintendo DS systems are still backwards compatible with the GBA too, so you don't even have to have that system still around. Final Fantasy IV was released on both the DS and the PSP, in fact, as was Final Fantasy III. PS was the only one that got IV: The After Years, but still. It's not as if they aren't willing, it's likely just a matter of time. As a last note on this particular subject, you say that few people wanted X HD. I have heard nothing but excitement for it, personally, and I have to wonder how much your statements are colored by your own wishes for future remakes.


    I addressed GBA versions before. Most TVs, especially new ones have great upscaling capabilities, often times better than what the PS3 is able to do. Same with Receivers if you happen to have one. Plus, We just had a whole general of Wii games that weren't in HD, and they managed just fine, so I don't buy that. If you sold your PS2 then that means someone has it. 150 million PS2s aren't sitting in landfils. In fact, I'm looking at mine in my closet as we speak. It's collecting dust, but it is there (I have a fat PS3 so I don't need it). And your point actually is my point as well. If PS2 games look ugly, then how do you think PS1 games look. As for people excited for Final Fantasy X HD, of course they would, FFX was awesome. while I don't think it was best in the series, if someone said that, I would think it was a worthy choice. But that is like saying hey wouldn't you love to have Metal Gear Solid 3 in HD, Konami did it, and sure we were excited, doesn't mean it was needed or there were a huge chorus of people asking for it.





    I won't get started on the subject of XIII, except to say that I place a heavy amount of blame on both the fans and Square Enix. I enjoyed the game, as I have most Final Fantasy games, despite whatever I personally percieve as flaws.



    I actually agree with you. people say Final Fantasies have been going down hill for a decade. I disagree. I think Final Fantasy X was awesome. Final Fantasy XI was good enough for a company with no experience in MMORPGs. Final Fantasy XII was good. Final Fantasy XIII had good PARTS. Great battle, ok characters, fair story that was some what better at the end, but didn't feel like the type of rpg, or the type of final fantasy we are used to. The linear aspect to it after how open XII was kinda killed it a bit. I think it is the "other games" that Square hasn't done or done well, compounded with some diminishing returns in final fantasy that made it seem like Square Enix as a whole has gone down. Like i said, where is this gens xenogears, or chrono, or Mana, or Mario RPG, or Vagrant Story. If they were also pumping out gems like these, FFXIII would look like a rare aberation, as oppose to the general rule.

  12. #12
    I came in just to say this:

    Tetsuya Nomura is the best thing Square Enix has going for them over at the Japanese HQ. I mean, they even trademarked his name! That's how popular of a creator he is. He is way more capable then most of the other directors there. And he gave Tabata a chance to direct (Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII) when no one else did. Nomura knows good games and good talent when he sees it. He adds a lot to each game he's involved in. Most directors (including the sub-par director Toriyama) rely on Nomura to make great art and suggest awesome gameplay decisions.

    He gave TWEWY a chance to become something. He made Kingdom Hearts. He helped create the stories for Final Fantasy VII, VIII and X. He's the one, with Kitase and Nojima, created the Arieth death scene. He's the one who directed a successful Final Fantasy movie. And he is the reason why Lightning fans like Lightning. They don't like her for her "personality" but for her looks and style. That was all Nomura.

    And now he is directing a game most Final Fantasy fans want. The game most fans want to play. The game that most fans won't shut up about. Final Fantasy and Square fans trust Nomura because he has proven himself to be one of the best directors at Square and one of the best creatives Square Enix has ever known.

    That is all.

  13. #13

    Hiryoki Ito is still my favorite. I love every game he's involved in, and if rumors be true, he's back on board with XV.

  14. #14

    Originally Posted by PshycoNinja
    I came in just to say this: Tetsuya Nomura is the best thing Square Enix has going for them over at the Japanese HQ. I mean, they even trademarked his name! That's how popular of a creator he is. He is way more capable then most of the other directors there.





    Ever heard of ..


    Naoki Yoshida?



    yeah im sure he is the next "up and coming" director and producer :P

  15. #15

    I said most.


    Naturally I like Tabata, Ito and Yoshida. I think they are all great directors. At the very least they are all significantly better than Toriyama. All I was saying is that Nomura knows his stuff and is one of the best at the company if not the best. That doesn't mean there aren't other good directors. I just feel Nomura has proven him self time and time again to be a real big talent and a great director and producer at Square Enix.

  16. #16

    I ate em all.

  17. #17
    It's been a while since I posted a thread but I have a really big reason for posting this and I hope many of you agree with me on this.

    I've seen videos, posts, and angery letters (don't ask...Seriously don't ask). Anyway These videos, posts, etc are all related to Final Fantasy, more specifically FFX and above. Some people are saying FFX is was when the series died, FFIX was the last "Good Game" (notice the quotations). I don't believe this in any way. I see FFXIII being called the absolute worst Final Fantasy game ever created. The fans who loved FF1 to FFIX say they want the old FF's back but I say that Technology has advanced and games have to as well you cant just live in the past.

    Anyway thats my issue and if your a true FF fan you would love all FF game (ok maybe you wn't like one of them or two but you can't just hate all FF games above IX). DOes anyone else agree?

  18. #18
    I love them all. XIII is... Interesting to say the least. Yeah that's what I'll stick with. Interesting.

  19. #19

    I love them all except X. I like X enough, but the story I found to be horrendous. XIII I loved mainly because of the battle systme, characters, and lore. IX is still my favorite though, because it really nailed everything I was after.

  20. #20

    Gimme back the medieval FF with I-IX....altho X- XIII were also cool in that they still incorporated the FF "feel"























    ....murrhurr...stupid eu gimme back my na account....

  21. #21

    From all the games I have played (not finished, I-X,XIII) I have really enjoyed all of them! Even though some aren't my favorite games (I'm looking at you, VI) I think the series has evolved to what it feels is good for that entry. I say Final Fantasy has a flame that burns bright!

  22. #22

    The only FF games I've ever been "upset" with are FF10-2 and FF13. But, ever since FF10, Square has followed the theme of avoiding the popular elements of the previous installments. People should know that Square-Enix has never been incapable of sticking with their traditional style of gameplay. Final Fantasies 1-9 were worlds that had grown larger and larger across 3 generations of consoles over a 14-year period. As technology advanced, so did the games. I believe Square-Enix should "embrace" the popular elements. Not "avoid" them. Why pull off to the side of the road and change a tire when you don't need to? If you had people in the car, they'd wonder why the heck you did that. lol


    It appears that Square-Enix has been focusing more on "quantity" rather than "quality". They're dishing out all kinds of titles here and there. But, nothing really sticks out. Now, I'm not saying they've made crappy FF games. I wouldn't go that far. I, for one, have enjoyed the series for the most part. I've been playing them since 1990. I've just noticed that the games aren't as wide-open as they used to be. You know, with the over-view of the land, mountains, and sea. I was absolutely shocked when FF10 didn't have that look. I still enjoyed the rest of what the game had to offer. But, I was disappointed at the same time. After playing all of those other FF games over the years, I was really looking forward to seeing the world map on the PS2. My imagination was running wild. lol I never thought for a second that they would do that again.


    This thread has asked me to re-think. Trust me, I've done this over and over for a while now. I've come to the same conclusion over and over again. The advancing technology isn't the problem. It's simply the approach. The decline in the implementation of what has been well-received over the years. Once again, I believe Square-Enix should "embrace" the popular elements. Then, build around them. Doing the opposite just makes no sense. Sacrifice for the sake of doing something different isn't a popular thing to do with a video game series.

  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by FinalFantasy107
    if your a true FF fan you would love all FF game (ok maybe you wn't like one of them or two but you can't just hate all FF games above IX). DOes anyone else agree?


    I cant agree less with your statement that a 'true' fan would simply have to accept everything.
    A 'fanboy' yes but a ' true fan' surely not!


    There is a good reason why people like the old titles and there are of course those who just run along with everything they hear.


    i have met enough people who will tell you that they hate all the new FF games but if you dig a bit you will see that many of them never actually finished many of the games, i have even heard that FF XIII is bad from people who don't own a playstation. Some people just repeat what they read somewhere.


    I dont really think that there are that many people who hate all FF titles past X. "Hate" is a too strong term here.
    FF XI was a great game and FF XII is cool as well. I personally did not like X-2 and 13 a lot but its still a great game and i could not hate it.


    I was not fond with the direction Final Fantasy tactics took at all, i LOVE FF Tactics for PS1 and when FFTA came out i was very disappointed as it felt like the focus age group dropped by 10 years all of sudden. Still the FFTA and FFTA2 games are great games.


    Personally, from the FF series, the titles i like least is simply for the reason because they no longer fit the theme that i liked about the older FF titles so much.



    My dislike was sparked by the Final Fantasy Movie, it has nothing in common with what i liked in the Final Fantasy games.
    And Starting with Final Fantasy VIII it all went downhill for me.
    I do not like the science fiction settings and i am very bored of being surrounded by pretty faces abd underaged heroes all the time.
    I like characters with personality and i dont need them all to be 15 and look like a model.
    I dont like that all male heroes look like they have escaped a boyband.
    FF VI had great characters, amano gave them a nice personality with his art and Final Fantasy VI had great characters as well.


    At some point it just felt like Square went completely mainstream and that a lot of the design desicions were based on market studies.
    As a company you hardly can blame them, they did the right thing and they did grow but understandably the hard core users were forced to re- adjust.


    This is simply how the world works nowdays, in the US games most of the male heroes have short hair and look like the doctor from Lost and in many japanese games they look like what can be sold in the pop music market. Companies conduct studies and create characters that appeal to the majority.
    Everything is streamlined and researched and even stories are based on formulas.

    But is it wrong?

    One can not honestly expect every studio to stay small and indie for the sole purpose to create games for the hardcore user,


    that is why much effort and money is put into research in order to streamline and optimize the product for a wide audience and Square surely is not trying to save on quality. SE is spending a lot on great music and the best visual they can get but sometimes certain studies can be simply wrong.

    There are certain elements in designs that are "trend setting" and some simply "follow a trend"


    in FF VII, a male hero like Cloud had a pretty face and eyes before it was cool and there were less attractive characters like Barret and the mix was simply awesome. The world was dirty and gloomy and it was awesome that way. The gameplay was not streamlined, the world was at some point open and the game had countless hidden features and minigames that by todays standards would hardly make it into a game.
    This game sold really well, as is.

    That being said, i think that all Final Fantasy Titles are great games and i am completely fine with the technological developments and changes to the gameplay, in fact i have always apprichiated the changes, it's what keeps the series interesting but i am not so happy with many of the design choices in characters and settings.


  24. #24
    ^^^Could not agree more with this man.

    I am hoping they bring Type-0 out in the west because it is different from a typical FF but holds a lot of the series staples from the original I - IX.

    Also Versus characters are older then the typical FF characters (I think they are all in their early 20's). And it is also going back to the old troops of Final Fantasy except with a new, real time battle system. That's why I am personally excited to see what they will show off very soon .

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by Magius
    I ate em all.
    Nothing wrong with Tetsuya Nomura. I only said, if he was too busy with too many things on his plate, then maybe they need to get another group of talent. The example I gave was, FFX for example had Nomura, while FFXII had Matsuno, with 13 going back to Nomura. But if they had a third major group, like the Xenogears group back in the day, then that would give three different feels to the games, but also allow each person to not have to juggle 3, 4 different projects.





    Anyways, I'm playing FFI over again, and I think i'm gonna give FFXII international zodiac a try afterwards. It's not too expensive on Amazon. What do you guys think when comparing the the original vs. the zodiac job version??? My guess is that it would allow more variety between the characters, something I generally prefer over the blank slate type of approach.

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