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Thread: How do you perceive your Garrett?

How do you perceive your Garrett?

  1. #1

    Question How do you perceive your Garrett?

    In the Thief missions forum I think Vanguard made a very interesting statement when answering a thread entitled ‘FM discussion’ In one of his points he said:

    Stop trying to make Garrett a good guy. He is an anti-hero: he only commits a "good" action that will benefit himself, like monetary reward or survival.

    Some people, like myself agree with this statement, others don’t! So how do you see your Garrett in the game? I guess it could come down to your style of play? So is Garrett a good guy or the bad guy? Could he be somewhere in between?

  2. #2
    I think he is a good guy, but he don't shows it. He hide his feelings behind cynicism. But deep inside he had a good heart.
    Think of the "no killing" objective when you are playing in expert. If Garrett were really bad, he would kill the guards, why wasting time with sneaking through a manision, when he could clean the place up with his sword?

  3. #3
    I'd say, most of the time he stays self-interested, but when pushed he'll do something remarkable, as the Keepers probably well know...

  4. #4

    This is what I posted...

    ...in the thread mentioned.

    I suppose it's different to us all (our perception of Garrett will vary, per person), but the way I see him is a person who's lived a hard, cruel life, and has been hardened to a certain extent, but is still, in reality, a good person, deep down inside - he is, after all an expert; therefore, on expert mode (the REAL Garrett mode), you can not kill people.
    Let's face it - how often does Garrett decide to rob some poor guy who's got a few shillings - barely enough to feed himself or his family? NEVER! He goes after the big, rich guys - the ones with lots of cash, that was probably aquired at the expense of other people!!
    Garrett really isn't a bad person - he just won't ADMIT that he's a good guy! Why? Because his pride won't allow him too - he has made his solitary thief's life something different, in his mind - and that's what makes HIM different than all the other thieves; it's not just his skill, his wit, etc. - it's his personality; so cool, so collective, so deep, so seemingly un-caring, yet, at the same time, truly caring...THAT's what makes him so interesting and such a great character.


    Remember Viktoria's agent, on Markhams' Isle? He was certainly caring then.
    Remember in the mechanist cathedral (Eavesdropping), when he found the dead bodies? "I could really learn to hate these guys"...
    Remember how he helped Basso? Of course, he had an excuse - "it's going to be worth it for loot, it's going to be worth it for friendship from Basso, I wouldn't bother otherwise", etc., etc.
    And look at how worried he was with Viktoria - he was willing to risk his life (the ONLY thing he had in the world!!) for her!!
    Remember how he saved Basso, in T1? Of course, again, he had an excuse (Basso's sister)...but he DID save him...

    No matter how he justifies helping others, and no matter how much he pretends not to have feelings, and to be dumb and deaf as far as emotions go, it's not true - he is human, and he DOES feel; he simply does not allow his emotions to CONTROL him - he acts with them, not because of them.

    Anyhow, that's my view.

  5. #5

    Thumbs Up

    Originally posted by ChristineS
    I think he is a good guy, but he don't shows it. He hide his feelings behind cynicism. But deep inside he had a good heart.
    Think of the "no killing" objective when you are playing in expert. If Garrett were really bad, he would kill the guards, why wasting time with sneaking through a manision, when he could clean the place up with his sword?
    Here, here, Christine - he's "a thief, not a murderer" - a good guy, who's doing what he can, to earn a living, not a cold, hard bad guy.


  6. #6
    In one way, he is bad, but he's also good. Someone else in that thread said something interesting "he won't admit that he's good because of his pride". Killing with the sword is to messy and loud. Therefore, he'd have to kill everyone. Therefore, he would lose health in fights (he can barely afford his rent as it is, how is he gonna get health potions?). And therefore, he wouldn't be the expert thief he is. The point of being a thief is (as my manual states it) have them "never know you were there". Ah! I just had a genius thought! He's a Keeper! But like undercover. Keepers keep (duh) Chaos/Bad and Order/Good equal. He's like that. Both. He does some good and some bad.

  7. #7

    Wink Nah

    Nah, Daventry - he could just kill everyone, steal everything that wasn't nailed down, and he'd have enough for rent and healing potions.

    Seriously, though, that's another thing - if Garrett were a bad guy, he'd do more than simply steal what he needed to survive - I mean, the guy is an expert, a master; he could (literally) get rich. Instead he steals what he needs (sometimes more, all at one time, but then he doesn't steal until he needs more).

    BTW, Daventry...isn't that the Kingdom from King's Quest? (Sorry, I haven't played that game much at all).

  8. #8

    Question

    If Garrett’s not a bad person at heart? Why is he depicted killing a hammer in the intro to Thief, and killing a guard in the intro to Thief 2? In fact both acts where cold bloodied murder! An arrow through the neck for the Hammer, and an arrow in the back for the guard. Nice person that Garrett wouldn’t like to meet him down a dark alley.

  9. #9
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    Cool

    Originally posted by ChristineS
    why wasting time with sneaking through a manision, when he could clean the place up with his sword?
    To avoid electric chair maybe (in case he gets caught)?

    No question about it, Garrett is bad according to common sense and logic. He steals + he kills = he is a criminal. But he is also cool. . His image of being cool is confusing you.

  10. #10
    Those intros entirely contradict everything that Garrett is - the Garrett in the game will NOT kill people (because Garrett is an expert, therefore expert mode=Garrett mode ).

    We can suppose that Garrett killed the guard and hammer for a good reason - perhaps the Hammer was a REALLY tyrannical person, who needed to be killed...and the same for the guard. Seriously, though, we can't know WHY he would kill those two, but we DO know that killing is against his principles, as the actual game proves.

    Originally posted by RiCh
    If Garrett’s not a bad person at heart? Why is he depicted killing a hammer in the intro to Thief, and killing a guard in the intro to Thief 2? In fact both acts where cold bloodied murder! An arrow through the neck for the Hammer, and an arrow in the back for the guard.

    He steals + he kills = he is a criminal.
    Nah - he steals, not kills. Only inferior wanna-be Garrett's (like me) kill - REAL Garrett's (you know, the ones who play on expert (unlike me)), who are the closest you'll EVER get to Garrett, do NOT kill. Steal, yes - kill no.
    And Robin Hood and Zorro stole, and even killed - and they were considered criminals. But they were really good guys.
    (Garrett's an almost Robin Hood or Zorro - he steals from the rich, to give to the poor (himself) )

  11. #11

    Thumbs Up Good topic RiCh =]

    I think he's torn between being good and bad... some days/missions he has more compassion..... other times less.. he lives for the moment… he's definitely a Jeckle and Hide type thief and struggles with his personality…

    He’s a loner because he has trust issues so other thieves can't count on him and the Keepers (although they think they know what the outcome will always be) only know for sure that Garrett’s pride and self worth is tied up with winning… so if he takes on a mission for the Keepers they know he will survive and complete the task....

    As far as judging him as a good guy because he doesn’t kill everyone… that’s a very poor yardstick… Garrett’s smart… he knows if he killed everyone there wouldn’t be anyone left to steal from… he also knows his limitations… that’s why he sometimes ghosts’ a mission…

    But his ultimate goal has always been to survive that’s why he only does what he needs to do and he only takes what he needs for the moment.. living from rent day to rent day doesn’t allow him to have a vision of the future.. for if he looked into the future he’d see a lonely path with no end and then he would have to make decisions about how to change his life style.. he’s punishing himself because he doesn’t feel worthy or loved and if he were to let his guard down and become attached to something (a cause) or someone (anyone) then he’d be vulnerable and have no control.. so he keeps his distance and pulls his cloak tightly around himself to act as a shield so he can’t be hurt or abandoned again… living a solitude self-serving existence in the hopes that no one finds out he’s really a sweetheart of a guy

    I think men like him because he’s aloof and appears self assured and in control… disassociating himself from responsibility and living some what of an adventurous life… and woman get that good girl bad boy rush… heavly laced with some Bonnie and Clyde syndrome.... it’s amazing how we fantasize about a lifestyle that none of us would ever condone or live.. but then that’s why it’s called fantasy

    XXXOOO
    Speedy

  12. #12
    I think that a clear and unbiased straight reading of the intro movies make it sure that Garrett is a bad guy, that he just killed them to get them out of the way. But I choose to ignore that movie and I decided that just from the rest of the game and all the storyline that Garrett isn't really a bad guy like that. I think the intro movie and "the rest" are in conflict a bit. I admit, however, that the conflict can be easier resolved by saying he's still a bad guy, just not QUITE as bad as the movie shows, but still bad. But IIIII choose to say that the movie is bunk and that Garrett is actually a good guy really.

    Bottom line:
    - Straight unbiased and most fair overview - Garrett is a somewhat bad guy, even at heart.
    - My justified and plausible but not quite unbiased opinion - Garrett is actually a good guy at heart.

  13. #13
    I perveive Garrett any way I want to....after all, I'm the player.

    If I want him to be bad with a "kill 'em all and let God sort them out" attitude, I play on easy mode. If I want to be a good Garrett, I play on expert and let the guards take a nap.

  14. #14
    littlek and I have similar opinions. I believe the designers creasted the Garrett character with a sort of neutrality in mind.

    The character seems open ended enough to let the player decide how he will act. The storyline, in terms of Garrett's personality leaves it up in the air much of the time.

    In fact, the only time Garrett seems to display a high amount of emotion is at the end of Thief I, where he tells the Keeper to bug off!

    "I'm through with heroics.....and with YOU'RE kind as well"

    "Tell them Garrett is DONE!"

    *awesome music cuts in*

  15. #15
    Yeah, KoMaG - I agree entirely about the intros.

  16. #16
    If you think about the very first intro where G is living in the streets as an orphan Pickpocket, and where he mentions his split from the keepers, it is apparent that G is that singular entity known as a survivor.

    He fought Karras to survive.
    He fought Constantine to survive.
    The occassional "kills" are for his survival.

    His attempt to blackmail Truart was for survival.

    Garrett is for Garrett. He is not unduely vicious, nor overly compassionate. His ethics and morals are his own, and even though we don't have a detailed description, certain attributes stand out. He does not kill civilians, is outraged at the killing of children, (witness the pagan village) he avoids confrontation unless unavoidable. He is steadfast as a friend (Cutty, Basso) resents underhanded attempts on his life (Ramirez).

    Has a respect for his enemies and a realistic view of his world. Victoria suckered him and helped Constantine. But, G met with her and joined in the campaign against Karras, mainly for his own survival, and was willing to work with a former enemy for a common cause.

    As sketchy as our knowledge of Garrett is, the cutscenes and his own comments reveal a considerable amount of information if examined with an open mind.

  17. #17
    Garrett's character has much depth. It is obvious from his dry humor and cynical anecdotes that he has been harmed in his youth. But then again, that's obvious since he turned to the streets for quick cash at such an early age. Even before he met the Keepers, though, I think he was always a loner. Out to protect number one. If they had posters, he'd have one saying "Trust no one." Of course, we know that fails when he trust Viktoria, the woman who gave him the accursed metal eye. Some might contend that he did it out of lust/love, but this is ridiculous. I saw no romantic undertones in the Viktoria relationship. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it (remarkably cliche, I know). I think he's relationship with her was business-like and very emotional as we know he felt strongly about what the Mechanists did to the Pagan village. I think we all were pretty pissed off, I know I did. He's human. That's apparent. He's not some cold hearted thief out there to destroy lives. In fact, I think he wants to feel as disconnected from his victims as possible. Which is why he was a pickpocket. Rob and go. No attachment whatsoever. Which is why he doesn't want a romantic relationship. No one can get hurt then. I think alot of his actions are driven by the fear of getting hurt or similar to that effect. With the Pagans and Viktoria, Viktoria wounded him both physically and emotionally, but the Mechanists mortally wounded the Pagans to the point of spiritual defamation. This was horrible for Garrett to handle. Under his icy exterior he's a pile of mush. He's obviously been hurt badly. That's why it took so much for him to be convinced that the Keepers actually may have something going on. "Tell me more..." It stirs much emotions in our hearts to hear that open-ended statement. That desire to learn more from people he daredn't trust before Karras' and Viktoria's death.
    About the no killing objective. I feel that that plays on Garrett's conceated nature to be the Master Thief. No one will see or hear me. I will be a whisper. A shadow. Once again, the emotional detachment. No connection with anyone. Thus the decision to be a thief. No one will see or hear you. You don't exist. What more can he possibly ask for? But to go back to his ego, he wants to prove he's the best by showing himself that he can steal this thing with out killing anyone. That's just how good he is.
    He's a very involved psyche to delve in, but yet so simple.
    I better stop, though, I can go on forever.
    Cheers.

  18. #18
    I can't stop. I needed to say something about the 'good guy' 'bad guy' riff. Those are very blanketed terms and anyone that said he's both I applaud you. He's very up to grabs so to speak. He takes life moment by moment. As we all know that's the only way to have the most control. He's very in control. I must be in control, don't lose it. I am the Master thief, and I am the Master of my mind, will, and emotions. He seems to be someone that would HATE surprises. He's not bad or good, he's Garrett. Those terms don't apply to him because he doesn't have a moral compass to guide things on. He does things that make logical sense. The senseless slaughtering of the Pagan village made no sense at all. Of course, his emotional being was upset, but I'm sure he tried to be as vulcan as possible and stick with the plea "it's not logical". More in control that way. Also, when he does kill someone I really don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. Frankly, I don't think he spends nights tossing and turning because his conscience is eating him alive about killing that guard the night before. He would kill a guard in a heartbeat if it's the only logical means of getting somewhere. He wouldn't kill him if he could use other means, because 1) that means more work...firing an arrow on the other hand is pretty simple 2) therefore, his master thief status is raised up 3) and it allows him to be as detached as possible. No moral compass. He probably thinks, is this a smart thing to do?, is this not a smart thing to do? That makes more sense.
    A lot of that logic played in his decision to join Viktoria. If he doesn't stop the Mechanists he logically knows they will overun the City and make life very difficult for him and he's still pissed off over the City Watch forcing him to Shalebridge.
    Remember there will always be exceptions to Garrett's logical thinking. As we all have such exceptions in our own lives. But the majority of the time I believe signs point to Garrett having no moral compass and a lone, detached, spirit.
    Cheers.

  19. #19
    Originally posted by RichAsWell
    ...Those terms don't apply to him because he doesn't have a moral compass to guide things on... No moral compass...

    I don't neccessarily disagree with the main thrust of your thoughts, but in the above you are judging him by your standards. Morals and ethics are unique to the society in which one lives, and to oneself. As an extreme example, I lived with a tribe of Phillipine headhunters for two weeks in 1960. They were still actively collecting heads from "enemy" tribes in the mountains of Luzon at the time.

    For them this act was moral in the structure of their society. My judgement of this based on MY moral outlook was inappropriate. Whereas I would not do, or would not have done this, because in MY moral world it was not done. But to condemn it as incorrect would be incorrect in the context.

    If he doesn't stop the Mechanists he logically knows they will overun the City and make life very difficult for him...
    In this instance the Mechanists WOULD NOT overrun the city. The release of the "Rust Gas" would have ended ALL CARBON BASED LIFE. There would be no City, no Garrett, just a collection of empty buildings and piles of dust. No plant, animal, insectoid, or human life except KARRAS in his insulated tower. Therefore survival was, I think, the main motivator in his confrontation in Soulforge.

  20. #20
    I think that for most of us the difference between good and bad is completely based on selfish motives.
    Even if I give money to charity because I want to help save starving children, it is still based on what I want.

    When playing thief:
    Do you steal money from servants?
    Do you kill / blackjack guards even if you could get around them?
    Do you destroy property just because you can?

    I think that this says a lot about how we see Garrett.
    The Honest Thief - FMs, screenshots, DromED, links ... Zaccheus' hospital blog

  21. #21
    Speaking in AD&D terminology, I see Garrett clearly as <b>neutral evil</b> - only caring for his own advantage in combination with lack of social skills.

    Speaking in psychological terminology, he appears to have a prototypical antisocial personality. (DSM-IV-R: 301.7) It's not too unlogical to see this personality trait as a result from childhood experience & obviously he is successful with it, so he keeps it up.

    http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/di...tisocialpd.htm


    I love him that way. Evil psychopaths as protagonists are yay!

  22. #22
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    Cool

    Originally posted by THEthief

    Nah - he steals, not kills. Only inferior wanna-be Garrett's (like me) kill - REAL Garrett's
    You are confusing Garrett character (designed & defined by Looking Glass) with Thief players...you, me and everybody else here. Everybody has their own way of playing a game..(c'mon, it's just a game albeit exceptionally good one, right? ) so there is no such thing as inferior players or inferior way of playing.
    This question seems to be misleading. "How do you percieve Garrett?" So, one can say..because *I* don't steal from the servants, because *I* don't make unnecessary kills/knockouts , Garrett is a good guy.

    This is actually quite a good thing. I like when this happens in games. It means that devs give us(players) the opportunity to fill the necessary gaps in the character's persona and "define" him for ourselves.

  23. #23
    Originally posted by Xcom


    You are confusing Garrett character (designed & defined by Looking Glass) with Thief players...you, me and everybody else here. Everybody has their own way of playing a game..(c'mon, it's just a game albeit exceptionally good one, right? ) so there is no such thing as inferior players or inferior way of playing.
    LOL, I guess not - I just meant that the way I play is not the way I percieve Garrett (you see, HE is an expert, I am not - I'm someone who loves the game, but sometimes has a heck of a hard time getting through...and yes, sometimes I must resort to violence).
    RichAsWell, I agree with your first post, entirely.

  24. #24
    However you view the ‘Garrett’ character, I think Looking Glass needs to be applauded in creating a gaming hero that can’t be easily characterised. His definitely NOT your average stereotype gaming character (all guns and no brains) although looked upon as ‘a bad guy’ because of his profession. At least the 'player' is given a choice on how bad Garrett needs to be in the Thief universe. It’s that freedom of choice that, after all this time still keeps me interested in Thief. Roll on T3, I want to see if Garrett finally makes it big and retires on a mountain of stolen gold. But I feel he's destined rob, steal and pillage forever in all the FMs that’ll be released for the game afterwards

  25. #25
    RE: TheThief, and XCOM:

    My view of the "Character" Garrett as gleaned from the cutscenes and views "he" presents of himself in the characterizations during play is as I have said. Survivor.

    "My" Garrett, the one I play, is a totally different character. As TheThief says, she is the amateur, Garrett is the professional. As such, Garrett would leave no clues (including unconscious bodies, and definetely not dead ones) to indicate his passage.

    Clues mean possible capture. Ergo the pros waft in, waft out without a trace or evidence except the vanished loot.

    My Garrett is a little more like Richard Marcinko, Rogue Warrior. (for those who don't recognize either, Google away.)

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