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Thread: The Off Topic Thread

  1. #51
    Well, nobody in America cares who the prime minister of such and such country is. It doesn't really affect us.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    Well, nobody in America cares who the prime minister of such and such country is. It doesn't really affect us.
    In fairness, that doesn't really work the other way around. Whoever becomes US president, it affects everyone.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    Well, nobody in America cares who the prime minister of such and such country is. It doesn't really affect us.
    I live in America and I care about the leaders of other countries, because I think it does affect us.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Tobias_Rieper View Post
    I live in America and I care about the leaders of other countries, because I think it does affect us.
    Okay.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by doom-generation View Post
    In fairness, that doesn't really work the other way around. Whoever becomes US president, it affects everyone.
    That's true.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I read up on TU and it sounds like a disaster. However, Trump always has a million projects going on, so if some of them fail then that is almost to be expected. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Trump fan, but I think we have to say that overall he is a successful business man.
    Actually, it's not just 4 (it's actually 5+ bankruptcies he's responsible for BTW) business that went down on his watch, each of his bankruptcies were responsible for the closing of as much as dozens of different businesses, leaving thousands out of jobs in the process. He's also the recipient of multiple lawsuits for fraud on top of that, so yes, it's perfectly reasonable to say he's not a business expert (contrary to what conservatives and Fox "News" would have you believe) and would be a total disaster as president, nevermind the fact that he doesn't have any kind of political experience, which is a huge red flag in and of itself (and Republicans nagged Obama for his minimal experience before running as President, hypocrites ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Trump is neither a racist nor does he want to deport Muslims from America, so if that is the kind of nonsense fear mongering coming out of CC, then I suppose "brainwashing" might indeed be an apt term.
    A guy who said he supports waterboarding Muslims (he did say he'd deport Muslims from America BTW, condones beating (predominantly) black protesters at his rallies, retweets white supremacists, calls Mexicans (and other immigrants, too, mind you!) "murderers and rapists", made derogatory remarks about Jeb Bush's wife (who's an immigrant BTW), blamed President Obama (who he referred to as our "Great African American president," for all intents and purposes) for what he calls "Baltimore thug riots", supported Donald Sterling after his racist comments, etc., etc. isn't a racist, really?

    Donald Trump is objectively racist-FACT, not opinion. It's a big part of the reason why he has an unprecedented 70% disapproval rating. His Tweets about Jeb Bush's wife and Obama on the "black thug riots in Baltimore" (his words, not mine) alone prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he's a bigoted buffoon.

    Saying he's not racist is like calling a white guy who joyfully throws the 'N' word around like a toy a non-racist.
    Last edited by KManX89; 26th Apr 2016 at 22:21.

  7. #57
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    Okay I'm giving up on the spoiler tags. I guess people don't care either way. Oh well, at least I tried

    Quote Originally Posted by doom-generation View Post
    Not trying to dodge an answer, I genuinely don't know a thing about Christians from Medieval Europe, so I couldn't possibly say. My interest in History doesn't cover that period at all.
    People were executed for going against the church, people accused of witchcraft were burned at the stake, thieves had their hands cut off, and the most gruesome kind of torture was a standard practice to get information out of someone. That kind of stuff.

    So then, Christianphobia?

    The UK is more than East London. That would be like me making a generalisation about all of America based on something happening in Brooklyn.
    It doesn't happen in every single city, therefore there's nothing to worry about. Okay, gotcha. Let's go tell that to the victims of terrorism - not every European city has had a terrorist attack, so it's not a big deal.

    Of course I'd condemn it no matter where it happened, but by the same token, I'm not going to impose my Western standards of behaviour on a country like Iran, as per your example. That's a ridiculous expectation to have from a country that stones people to death. If I was gay and in Iran, I'd keep myself to myself while I scrambled to the border!
    It's a ridiculous expectation for people to not treat gays in an inhumane way because "they have a different culture" and we shouldn't hold them to basic humanistic values?! You can't be serious.

    Yes, but I'm talking about ISIS in Iraq specifically. I believe that if Saddam hadn't have been removed from power, and Iraq hadn't subsequently become a god-awful mess in the decade since, then ISIS would not have gotten a foothold in the area. Saddam might have been a , but he had the authority, an authority that that country hasn't had since. Obviously we're talking counter-factual here, but it's what I believe.
    That's great wishful thinking, but I don't buy it. As I said, terrorism was already rapidly growing way before Saddam was removed so I have no doubt it would have continued that trend. Just look at what's happened in Syria - the dictator is still in power and ISIS is running amok there.

    Okay... well, despite what your European talk shows say, I'm speaking for my own country, where I live, and I'm telling you that terrorism is taken extremely seriously.
    I'm speaking for your country as well. And mine. And many other countries in Europe. And it's clear to see that Muslim terrorism isn't taken nearly as serious as it should be. Oh sure, whenever another few dozen innocent civilians are blasted to death by a suicide bomber, all the European leaders will appear on TV and give a carefully crafted speech that will pull on the heart strings of the people, about the lives lost and that their government will do "everything in their power" to fight the "extremists". But the next day it's business as usual and the politicians and the media are in full apologetics mode, stressing the fact that "it's not Islam" that is the problem, and that we (the West) has "invited" terrorism by saying "mean things" and by "stealing oil" all that junk.

    The media and the politicians will do everything in their power to avoid the real problem. It's deflection here, strawmanning there, and topped off with a nice dose of white guilt and cultural relativism. Say something critical about a death cult religion - you're labeled a racist. Say something critical about immigration policies - the cops will come to haul your arse to jail.

    But yeah, do go on and keep telling people how Europe is totally taking this whole issue dead serious.

    Can you back up that terror attacks have happened in Europe as a direct result of a failing of the authorities due specifically to a fear of being labelled racist? That was the assertion that you were making.
    No, the only person who was making unsubstantial assertions was you - by claiming that it didn't happen. You can't possibly say that it didn't because you don't know that.

    I'm saying that in the West authorities are being hindered by political correctness to investigate, catch and sentence criminals. And this ranges from child trafficking to terrorism, which are serious crimes. And I've backed it up with evidence. You on the other hand have provided nothing to back up your claim that it is not happening.

    Well if and when that happens, my opinion on things may well change. But I'm talking about how things are now
    If you're the kind of person who waits until oppressive laws are already implemented before you speak out against them, that's on you I guess. No offense, but IMO that is a very naive stance to take.

    and how the differences between our nations are bound to give us some fundamentally different viewpoints.
    We are both from modern Western democratic countries. We are both atheists who obviously believe in human rights and equality. There shouldn't be any "fundamental differences" between the two of us. It truly saddens me that you are making excuses for Muslims treating people bad in their countries by chalking it up to "cultural differences".

    I hold everyone to the same standards as myself. I make no excuses for anyone, regardless of their religion, culture, skin color, gender, age, etc. In my view that is true equality.

    I don't know if you can quantify it quite that simply. If someone here is using hate-speech, actually trying to inflict hatred, then yeah, I agree with them going to jail.
    I could say that I hate Hitler. I think he was a piece of crap. Me saying so may cause another person to also hate Hitler. Should I now go to jail for it?

    Now, obviously your answer is going to be "no". So let's analyze why that is. Is it because we all collectively decided it's okay to hate Hitler? Where do we draw the line? When is it justified to hate someone?

    Why should intolerance be tolerated?
    Intolerance is not hatred. You can be intolerant to incest without hating people who have incestuous relationships.

    The holocaust denial thing I agree with you on. That has always struck me as a ridiculous law.
    Glad we're on board with that one at least

    So then, what are your views on imprisoning people for being critical about immigration policies? Is that a ridiculous law, too? Or is that unacceptable hate speech?

    Again, you're taking about and if and when, our culture isn't dictated by "if and when", it's about the reality we live in right now.
    The reality we live in right now is that cultures are changing. If you're content sitting around doing nothing while your culture changes to the worse, that's your choice. If you were the only one in your country, I'd shrug it off, but sadly, that is not the case. Way too many people are waiting to the point where it's so bad that it's already too late. I'm the kind of person who pays attention to warning signs and trends and voices concerns so that we as a society may implement preventative measures to nip problems in the bud when they do pop up. All in good balance, of course.

    I said in my opinion, it was outrageous. To me that crossed a line. But this is what I mean when I talk about different cultures; over here, saying that would be considered racist at worst and incredibly rude at best.
    And this right here is exactly the problem with political correctness. People hear "xyz is the worst" and they have knee-jerk reactions because it sounds racist and offensive. Except it isn't. First of all, Islam is not a race, so it cannot possibly be racist. So we can wipe that one off the table right there. Second, it's not offensive because it is fact devoid of ill intentions. Facts do not care about offense, they just are. I'm stating this fact without wishing harm on innocent Muslims, and I will denounce anyone who uses facts to demonize innocent people. In fact, my wish is for Muslims to go atheist so that their religion will stop harming themselves. Islam is oppressing everyone; atheists, Christians, Buddhists and Muslims.

    It is not the politically correct thing to do, but it is perfectly possible to rank religions in terms of how much harm/pain/suffering they cause to humanity. And whenever you rank a set of religions, you always have one at the bottom and one at the top, with a bunch in between that range from least harmful to more harmful. So you always have one religion that is objectively the worst one in the world. Now, which one would you say that is? Buddhism? Jainism? Obviously not. Those are on the very bottom of list of harmful religions.

    So, if you have a different contestant for worst religion in the world, I'd love to hear it and your reasoning for why.

    Now, you could of course say "I'm not going to rank religions, that's rude", which you are of course perfectly entitled to do. And I of course will not and cannot force you to rank anything. But then my assertion stands unquestioned, whether you find it "offensive" or not.

    And I don't see that you can factually what say what the "worst" religion is. That's purely subjective.
    No, it's perfectly possible to objectively determine which is currently the worst religion in the world by using certain metrics. And we can use reason and statistics to back them up.

    Wow, OK. I wasn't trying to dismiss what you said, just obverse that our different cultures and societies are going to give us different perspectives on things. It was not at all meant to be dismissive. And I'm not trying to make assumptions about where you come from either.
    You did assume that I'm from America. But nvm, moving on, I won't dwell on it.

    No thanks, American beer tastes like cat to me.
    It's not American

    Depends. If you're a racist but you keep it to yourself, then fine. But if you act on them and it affects others, then it becomes an issue.
    Well then your point is kind of moot. If someone is a racist but keeps it to himself then you would not know about his beliefs in the first place. I've never heard of anyone being racist who keeps it to himself

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    Yeah, it's funny having Europeans weigh in on the election.
    I'll weigh in on any election I wish. Not just because I can and because there is nothing wrong with it, but especially because said election will directly influence my part of the world and especially because I have American friends who will be influenced by the election.

    One of my American friends is in terrible health, and the thought of Trump coming in to take their health care away, possibly resulting in their death worries me.

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    They live in a completely different world, and don't understand the American culture.
    Making assumptions about my knowledge of American culture.... how presumptuous.

    Nevermind about the fact that many non Americans know more about America than many Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Tobias_Rieper View Post
    I live in America and I care about the leaders of other countries, because I think it does affect us.
    It really does, yes. We live in a highly globalized and interconnected world. The American economy is directly influenced by the economies of other Western countries. And whoever is elected as the president of Iran or Isreal can have significant consequences to the day to day lives of the average American.

    Being informed and concerned about politics in other countries is generally a smart thing. Especially when there are countries out there today who are literally talking about wiping out other countries from the face of the earth.

  8. #58
    All of that is awesome. Now, how about we get the game fixed because 1.04 screwed things up quite a bit.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by KManX89 View Post
    Actually, it's not just 4 (it's actually 5+ bankruptcies he's responsible for BTW) business that went down on his watch, each of his bankruptcies were responsible for the closing of as much as dozens of different businesses, leaving thousands out of jobs in the process.
    It's funny, isn't it - take a risk and fail in silicon valley and you're seen as a national hero (I'll let you guess who I'm talking about ), but take risks in real estate and have a similar arrogant personality, and you're despised by millions!

    He's also the recipient of multiple lawsuits for fraud on top of that, so yes, it's perfectly reasonable to say he's not a business expert
    Many successful businesses deal with lawsuits. That's not a measure of success in my book.

    (contrary to what conservatives and Fox "News" would have you believe)
    I don't give a flying hoot what Fox news has to say. They are scum.

    and would be a total disaster as president
    The one and only sensible thing you've said in your entire post. And you already know I feel the same way, so you get no cookies for parroting me

    nevermind the fact that he doesn't have any kind of political experience, which is a huge red flag in and of itself
    Perhaps. But it may also just blow some fresh air into the insanely rusted system that is Washington. It certainly is not my number 1 reason why I don't want Trump for pres.

    and Republicans nagged Obama for his minimal experience before running as President ).
    Yeah yeah republican politicians be cray cray. Tell us something we don't know, lol.

    Nice try, but your first link already falls flat right in the first paragraph so I'm not even going to bother reading the rest or following the rest of your links.

    Quote:

    "Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump echoed rival Ted Cruz on Tuesday in calling for patrols of Muslim neighborhoods in the U.S., and said the country must begin torturing terror suspects to get information out of them."

    Notice the big fat in your face TERROR SUSPECTS. He didn't say that he wants to water board any random Muslim for no reason whatsoever you ignoramus

    If Trump is pro water boarding, he is pro water boarding non Muslims, too. That's not racist, that's just being a freaking republican. Ask how many republicans are in favor of water boarding to prevent terrorist attacks. The number might surprise you!

    If you want me to take you seriously, do better research and give me your one best piece of evidence of Trump being "racist". None of this quote mining and un-PC nonsense.

    Donald Trump is objectively racist-FACT, not opinion. It's a big part of the reason why he has an unprecedented 70% disapproval rating. His Tweets about Jeb Bush's wife and Obama on the "black thug riots in Baltimore" (his words, not mine) alone prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he's a bigoted buffoon.
    You watch too much TYT propaganda, my friend.

    Saying he's not racist is like calling a white guy who joyfully throws the 'N' word around like a toy a non-racist.
    I guess Eminem is a racist now.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    People were executed for going against the church, people accused of witchcraft were burned at the stake, thieves had their hands cut off, and the most gruesome kind of torture was a standard practice to get information out of someone. That kind of stuff.

    So then, Christianphobia?
    You can't think that is a fair comparison, not to modern Muslims in the west who aren't extremists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    It doesn't happen in every single city, therefore there's nothing to worry about. Okay, gotcha. Let's go tell that to the victims of terrorism - not every European city has had a terrorist attack, so it's not a big deal.
    Yes a few occurrences in one part of one city is nothing. It's not fair to say it is happening regularly in the whole country. That was my only point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    It's a ridiculous expectation for people to not treat gays in an inhumane way because "they have a different culture" and we shouldn't hold them to basic humanistic values?! You can't be serious.
    I'm saying I'm not going to judge a Muslim country on the standards set by the west. The culture gap is too massive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    That's great wishful thinking, but I don't buy it. As I said, terrorism was already rapidly growing way before Saddam was removed so I have no doubt it would have continued that trend. Just look at what's happened in Syria - the dictator is still in power and ISIS is running amok there.
    It's just my opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I'm speaking for your country as well. And mine. And many other countries in Europe. And it's clear to see that Muslim terrorism isn't taken nearly as serious as it should be. Oh sure, whenever another few dozen innocent civilians are blasted to death by a suicide bomber, all the European leaders will appear on TV and give a carefully crafted speech that will pull on the heart strings of the people, about the lives lost and that their government will do "everything in their power" to fight the "extremists". But the next day it's business as usual and the politicians and the media are in full apologetics mode, stressing the fact that "it's not Islam" that is the problem, and that we (the West) has "invited" terrorism by saying "mean things" and by "stealing oil" all that junk.

    The media and the politicians will do everything in their power to avoid the real problem. It's deflection here, strawmanning there, and topped off with a nice dose of white guilt and cultural relativism. Say something critical about a death cult religion - you're labeled a racist. Say something critical about immigration policies - the cops will come to haul your arse to jail.

    But yeah, do go on and keep telling people how Europe is totally taking this whole issue dead serious.
    My mistake, apparently you know more about Europe's approach to terrorism than I do from living here. I was not at all trying to speak for your country, though you apparently have no problems telling me about mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    No, the only person who was making unsubstantial assertions was you - by claiming that it didn't happen. You can't possibly say that it didn't because you don't know that.
    You were claiming that it was happening, and you couldn't possibly have said that for a fact so I disputed it. The claim was yours and therefore so was the burden of proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I'm saying that in the West authorities are being hindered by political correctness to investigate, catch and sentence criminals. And this ranges from child trafficking to terrorism, which are serious crimes. And I've backed it up with evidence. You on the other hand have provided nothing to back up your claim that it is not happening.
    No, you've only backed up the criminal side, not the terrorism side, which was the point from the start. And there is literally no way for me to prove that it isn't happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    If you're the kind of person who waits until oppressive laws are already implemented before you speak out against them, that's on you I guess. No offense, but IMO that is a very naive stance to take.
    What are you talking about... This point was never about speaking out against laws, it was about how we have different circumstances in our respective nations that shape our viewpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    We are both from modern Western democratic countries. We are both atheists who obviously believe in human rights and equality. There shouldn't be any "fundamental differences" between the two of us. It truly saddens me that you are making excuses for Muslims treating people bad in their countries by chalking it up to "cultural differences".

    I hold everyone to the same standards as myself. I make no excuses for anyone, regardless of their religion, culture, skin color, gender, age, etc. In my view that is true equality.
    That sounds great on paper, but when I was in Thailand last year, I didn't go around demanding they treat their animals better because they don't live up to my western standards. You can't do that to people of another culture. No matter how right you think your way is, it's arrogance to push it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I could say that I hate Hitler. I think he was a piece of crap. Me saying so may cause another person to also hate Hitler. Should I now go to jail for it?

    Now, obviously your answer is going to be "no". So let's analyze why that is. Is it because we all collectively decided it's okay to hate Hitler? Where do we draw the line? When is it justified to hate someone?
    You're really going to use Hitler in your example? Okay... Anyway there's difference between saying you don't like someone and hate-speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Glad we're on board with that one at least

    So then, what are your views on imprisoning people for being critical about immigration policies? Is that a ridiculous law, too? Or is that unacceptable hate speech?
    Depends what they say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    The reality we live in right now is that cultures are changing. If you're content sitting around doing nothing while your culture changes to the worse, that's your choice. If you were the only one in your country, I'd shrug it off, but sadly, that is not the case. Way too many people are waiting to the point where it's so bad that it's already too late. I'm the kind of person who pays attention to warning signs and trends and voices concerns so that we as a society may implement preventative measures to nip problems in the bud when they do pop up. All in good balance, of course.
    You are still missing my point and arguing a different one entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    And this right here is exactly the problem with political correctness. People hear "xyz is the worst" and they have knee-jerk reactions because it sounds racist and offensive. Except it isn't. First of all, Islam is not a race, so it cannot possibly be racist. So we can wipe that one off the table right there. Second, it's not offensive because it is fact devoid of ill intentions. Facts do not care about offense, they just are. I'm stating this fact without wishing harm on innocent Muslims, and I will denounce anyone who uses facts to demonize innocent people. In fact, my wish is for Muslims to go atheist so that their religion will stop harming themselves. Islam is oppressing everyone; atheists, Christians, Buddhists and Muslims.

    It is not the politically correct thing to do, but it is perfectly possible to rank religions in terms of how much harm/pain/suffering they cause to humanity. And whenever you rank a set of religions, you always have one at the bottom and one at the top, with a bunch in between that range from least harmful to more harmful. So you always have one religion that is objectively the worst one in the world. Now, which one would you say that is? Buddhism? Jainism? Obviously not. Those are on the very bottom of list of harmful religions.

    So, if you have a different contestant for worst religion in the world, I'd love to hear it and your reasoning for why.

    Now, you could of course say "I'm not going to rank religions, that's rude", which you are of course perfectly entitled to do. And I of course will not and cannot force you to rank anything. But then my assertion stands unquestioned, whether you find it "offensive" or not.
    What you have done, is somehow thought I was saying you are incorrect, when I was actually just saying that in my opinion, it was a terrible thing to say. Your response to me saying that has basically been "But I'm right, so there, and I don't care who I offend." That is disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    No, it's perfectly possible to objectively determine which is currently the worst religion in the world by using certain metrics. And we can use reason and statistics to back them up.
    I disagree, but hey-ho.

    Unfortunately, I think I'm done on this political talk. To be honest, almost every one of the replies in your post has read as decidedly unpleasant, and I fear it's going to get worse, and I've no appetite for it. Perhaps that was not your intention, but it's how it reads. The conversation is going into tit-for-tat and arguing over who said what, so I see no point in continuing. Clearly we are cut from very different cloth, with some huge fundamental differences, so I propose we just agree to disagree and move onto something lighter.

    Not trying to just have the last word, I just think this has run its course. Let's crack open a window and get some air in.
    Last edited by doom-generation; 27th Apr 2016 at 02:41.

  11. #61
    This off topic thread was not only a bad idea. but a smoke screen to get us to stop talking negatively about the game. I'm sure Driber's boss suggested the idea. I talk politics with other people; I don't need that here. Let's talk about the game and how to make it better.

  12. #62
    It's also pretty funny that Driber can talk on and on about how he thinks the Muslim religion is horrible, but wants to shut down the conversation when someone complains about a video game. See, I'm right! Square and IO aren't interested in what we think of the game, they just want positive word of mouth so that their sales can go up.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    This off topic thread was not only a bad idea. but a smoke screen to get us to stop talking negatively about the game. I'm sure Driber's boss suggested the idea. I talk politics with other people; I don't need that here. Let's talk about the game and how to make it better.
    I completely disagree. It's good to have a place we can just shoot the breeze with other members. We have an entire forum full of threads talking about ways to improve the game, but it doesn't have to be only that.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom-generation View Post
    You can't think that is a fair comparison, not to modern Muslims in the west who aren't extremists.
    You keep on avoiding to answer the question. Nevermind if it's an unfair comparison in your opinion, it's a thought experiment to make a bigger point. So.... Christianphobic or not?

    Yes a few occurrences in one part of one city is nothing. It's not fair to say it is happening regularly in the whole country. That was my only point.
    I haven't made any claims anything about frequency or the spread of the problem. That's your strawman that you're arguing for no reason.

    But if you'd like to get into the details, we can. How about the fact that Islamism is systematically happening in every single Western country that has a Muslim population of greater than 1%, and citizens constantly reporting problems with it after having experienced it first hand.

    In countries where the Muslim population is less than 1% we rarely hear anything about Islamism. So explain that...

    What about the fact that statistically speaking Sweden is now rape country #1 in the West thanks to the country's insane open door policy on immigration?

    But I'm sure you'll manage to come up with excuses and apologetics for all those facts as well.

    I'm saying I'm not going to judge a Muslim country on the standards set by the west. The culture gap is too massive.
    Why? What possible good argument is there to be quiet about violations to human rights based on something as arbitrary as geographics? That makes no sense whatsoever. If it's wrong to kill a gay man for being gay in the UK, it is just as much wrong in the middle east.

    This is the kind of mindset that is exactly the problem in today's society. Cultural relativism. Don't criticize people living in other countries because we don't live there. Absolute horse dung. Apologies for being crass, but this stuff really upsets me.

    My mistake, apparently you know more about Europe's approach to terrorism than I do from living here. I was not at all trying to speak for your country, though you apparently have no problems telling me about mine.
    Absolutely not, no. I'll criticize your country all day long. Likewise, you may criticize my country all the day if you have genuine points of contention. Go right ahead, I don't care. If you're right, you're right. I don't give a hoot about arbitrary details like the geographic location of the person behind the criticism. Opinions and argumentation stand on their own merit.

    Here, I'll start - there is much corruption in my country. My government sucks. And half of my fellow countrymen are morons with idiotic opinions

    You were claiming that it was happening, and you couldn't possibly have said that for a fact so I disputed it. The claim was yours and therefore so was the burden of proof.
    You're wrong. Here's a reminder of how this point of contention started. Notice that I'm clearly talking about the West, not just Europe.

    "Indeed, it is quite difficult to stop the ideology from spreading. And part of the problem of why it is spreading so quickly in the first place I have to put on the cancer that is modern PC culture. A lot of people in the West have adopted a backwards way of thinking; that somehow the West is responsible for Islamic terrorism. Somehow we are to blame for "radicalizing" young Muslims all over the world because we dare take sensible anti terror measures such as profiling at airports, lest we risk offending anyone. Police in Europe [*Police in the West. I corrected this in my very next post. And I've continued to mention "the West" regarding this point in every single subsequent response after that.] is afraid to investigate suspected terrorists, lest they risk being labeled "racist" by the PC crowd. It's absolutely asinine."

    I've backed up my assertion (political correctness and cultural relativism hinders the battle against terrorism and other serious crime in the West) with evidence (terrorism - the San Bernadino case; other serious crime - UK child trafficking by Pakistani people). You have provided nothing to back up yours, which BTW was not a dispute. A dispute would be "I disagree with you" or "I don't believe it" or "I reject your claim". Instead, you literally claimed that it is NOT happening. That is not a dispute, that is an assertion; a claim. So then the burden of proof does fall onto you.

    No, you've only backed up the criminal side, not the terrorism side, which was the point from the start.
    See above.

    And there is literally no way for me to prove that it isn't happening.
    Then maybe consider retracting your claim.

    What are you talking about... This point was never about speaking out against laws, it was about how we have different circumstances in our respective nations that shape our viewpoints.
    I apologize if I read too much into it. We were talking about fingerprints on passports and from your responses you appeared to be of the mindset that you're not really concerned about negative trends (UK politicians trying to make it happen) only until the moment they are actually signed into law.

    That sounds great on paper, but when I was in Thailand last year, I didn't go around demanding they treat their animals better because they don't live up to my western standards. You can't do that to people of another culture. No matter how right you think your way is, it's arrogance to push it.
    There's a difference between going to Thailand and literally physically taking those animals from their owners and setting them free, and having an intelligent, civil discussion about universal animal rights that transcend borders. The former might be arguably arrogant, yes. But what I am doing here (and what IMO you should be doing) is the latter.

    But allow me to retort to your anecdote with the following hypothetical situation - what if it wasn't an animal but a little Thai girl? Would you have stood by and let her dad beat her with a switch until she bleeds from the skin cuts because she didn't bring home enough money from her job as underage prostitute? Would you ignore it and tell yourself something like "I'm in a foreign country; I shouldn't butt in because that would be arrogant"?

    If your answer is "no" then obviously your cultural relativism has some flaws or double standards. If the answer is "yes" then.... what kind of soulless monster are you?

    You're really going to use Hitler in your example? Okay... Anyway there's difference between saying you don't like someone and hate-speech.
    No, I'm not talking about "dislike". I dislike coffee icecream. That means nothing. I'm talking about actual hatred. Let's stick to the subject.

    Oh you're uncomfortable talking about Hitler? Okay let's use Trump as an example. If I publicly spout hatred towards Trump, should I be jailed? Is that okay in your eyes?

    Depends what they say.
    "Our government is letting in too many immigrants too quickly from the middle east and it's causing serious problems within our society."

    You are still missing my point and arguing a different one entirely.
    I think it's relevant, though. And it certainly is a point based on reality.

    What you have done, is somehow thought I was saying you are incorrect, when I was actually just saying that in my opinion, it was a terrible thing to say.
    Okay so you're actually saying that I'm right but I shouldn't voice an uncomfortable truth. That's even worse than if you thought I was wrong!

    I really cannot relate with this mindset that we shouldn't say things that are true just because it might offend those who are easily offended.

    Your response to me saying that has basically been "But I'm right, so there, and I don't care who I offend." That is disappointing.
    I wasn't trying to say that, but you're right, why should I care about offending the easily offended? What you said about Trump offends a whole bunch of people. Do you care? Obviously not.

    What I find disappointing is people shutting down discussions over political correctness. It's not PC to point out which religion today is causing the most harm to society, so let's all just stop talking about it, lest we hurt offend someone's sensibilities. Good luck trying to solve the world's problems by constantly restricting your speech that much. If we did that in the past with Christianity, we wouldn't be now where we are today. We wouldn't have gay marriage legal in the US right now.

    And isn't it ironic that it's usually the people who don't even belong to the religion that take the most offense to criticism of said religion. There's those cultural relativism double standards again.

    What I said wasn't hateful. It was mere fact. No one should be offended by it.

    I disagree, but hey-ho.

    Unfortunately, I think I'm done on this political talk. To be honest, almost every one of the replies in your post has read as decidedly unpleasant, and I fear it's going to get worse, and I've no appetite for it. Perhaps that was not your intention, but it's how it reads. The conversation is going into tit-for-tat and arguing over who said what, so I see no point in continuing. Clearly we are cut from very different cloth, with some huge fundamental differences, so I propose we just agree to disagree and move onto something lighter.

    Not trying to just have the last word, I just think this has run its course. Let's crack open a window and get some air in.
    I'm sorry you view it that way, Doom. Indeed, not my intention to be unpleasant. I'm just discussing the topic as I would with close ones IRL. It's nothing personal. Sometimes I'm also just ranting a bit in general. I'm just very open and direct. I know that can come across as "attackey" to some, but I can assure you I am not

    Sure, happy to move onto something lighter. No problem!

    How about the last film you guys have watched?

    Mine would be BBC's Hidden Kingdoms. Wonderful documentary series about the smaller creatures of nature, with amazing camera work and slomo footage.



    Anyone else into nature docs, too?


    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    This off topic thread was not only a bad idea. but a smoke screen to get us to stop talking negatively about the game. I'm sure Driber's boss suggested the idea. I talk politics with other people; I don't need that here. Let's talk about the game and how to make it better.
    Crap, I've been caught. Damn you, Columbo!

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    It's also pretty funny that Driber can talk on and on about how he thinks the Muslim religion is horrible
    Takes two to tango, mate.

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeSlade View Post
    but wants to shut down the conversation when someone complains about a video game. See, I'm right! Square and IO aren't interested in what we think of the game, they just want positive word of mouth so that their sales can go up.
    Well that's it, the jig is up. Might as well pack up and leave now. Oh well, you've had a good run, 47.



    lol, seriously, you need one of these:



    Quote Originally Posted by doom-generation View Post
    I completely disagree. It's good to have a place we can just shoot the breeze with other members. We have an entire forum full of threads talking about ways to improve the game, but it doesn't have to be only that.

  15. #65
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    I am officially a PC gamer. Well, I'm actually a neutral gamer, now that I've picked up a gaming PC. It was a complete spur-of-the-moment decision, but influenced by years of desire. This past Monday, I picked up an ASUS ROG G20CB with a 6th gen Intel i7 and a GeForce GTX 970 and this thing is beastly. I've been running GTA V and Fallout 4 with an insane amount of mods installed and the games still run insanely smoothly.

    Now I need to catch up on the several PC-exclusive titles I've wanted to play and missed over the years.

    (click image to enlarge)

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenka View Post
    I am officially a PC gamer. Well, I'm actually a neutral gamer, now that I've picked up a gaming PC. It was a complete spur-of-the-moment decision, but influenced by years of desire. This past Monday, I picked up an ASUS ROG G20CB with a 6th gen Intel i7 and a GeForce GTX 970 and this thing is beastly. I've been running GTA V and Fallout 4 with an insane amount of mods installed and the games still run insanely smoothly.

    Now I need to catch up on the several PC-exclusive titles I've wanted to play and missed over the years.
    Hey congrats, mate. So you have all major platforms now?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Hey congrats, mate. So you have all major platforms now?
    Indeed.

    I've been researching a lot of PC exclusive titles that may capture my interest. There's an upcoming Kickstarter called Chronicles of Elyria that looks absolutely phenomenal.

    (click image to enlarge)

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenka View Post
    Indeed.

    I've been researching a lot of PC exclusive titles that may capture my interest. There's an upcoming Kickstarter called Chronicles of Elyria that looks absolutely phenomenal.
    Cool. Did you spend any time researching the hardware you got? Or did you literally just walk into a store and said "that pretty one over there!"

  19. #69
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    So the UK voted and will be leaving the EU. Curious to know what you guys' opinions on it are.

  20. #70
    Since this is Off-Topic thread I want to share couple of funny videos of interesting animals . I don't want to spam, just to entertain people, so this is my first and last time to share other link. I hope that you will understand me and enjoy it. Thank You!

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