Thread: Long Needed Balance

Long Needed Balance

  1. #1

    Long Needed Balance

    It kind of perplexes me how nobody (or very few) people as of late have not voiced their opinions about how borked the BM class is, as well as the other issues with other classes.

    Really?

    Hmph...

    Well anyways, the way the Beastmaster was designed was.... for lack of a better description, sloppy.

    What I mean by that is, the way his abilities are distributed and how they actually work seems hastily made, despite the fact that he was delayed for... how long? A Month?

    Regardless, let me explain...

    Let's start with the good...

    To my surprise, I've found that the Threshawk aspect of his class seems to work out very nicely. It doesn't feel gimmicky or abusive in any way since it has some real, tangible uses and weaknesses.

    To my knowledge, his shotguns are all relatively balanced. Once they started finally working and registering hits properly, they actually became quite scary and cumbersome to deal with. No complaints there.

    However...

    Beastmaster has some balance issues, in my eyes anyways, and they certainly need to be fixed, lest this class turn into a pick-one-and-done sorta deals.

    For instance, ask yourself, what do you often see other BM players using? Could it be... Savagery, Powershot, and Natures fury?

    Go figure.

    But Seriously, in comparison to his other abilities, these are just.. well.. better...

    Let me explain,

    Let's first talk about the talent Savagery... Why on gods green earth does it do 300? Really, it seems a bit too much in my opinion, especially when I see BMs ignore their shotgun entirely and just start meleeing you whenever they get close, at ANY amount of health. His melee attack speed far outshines any vampires, save one or two that might have attack speed stacked.

    Is 200 or 220 really unreasonable? It's still a heavy hit, but it doesn't do half of your damn healthbar in two swings, which take, maybe a little longer than a second? I don't know, I guess my point is that when a BM decides that Melee is a better option than his *in' primary weapon, there's an issue.

    You've got yourself a Vampire. El, Oh, El

    Anyways, moving on...

    Let's talk about his abilities, and how they could be reworked and moved around to make for a more interesting class.

    Currently, most, if not all BM users are running with Powershot and Nature's Fury as their abilities, and Savagery as their talent (but we already talked about that).

    The scariest thing about this class is that it has the potential to stagnate into just that, one set-up to use, everytime, every match. It's just more flexible, easier to use, and less situational than his other abilities. Running both of those abilities turns the BM into less of a support character and more of a brawler, kind of like the Vanguard, albeit more offensive.

    Powershot is a Vampire repellent, and if timed properly, can even be a move canceller. Many-a-times have I missed my attacks as a Vampire because powershot pushed me back. That's good! The ability is working as intended and has a nice spot in his arsenal. Pushing a vampire just out of melee range is crucial to getting in one, maybe even two more shotgun shots before he's back up on you again and even more-so when you cancel an attack with it. Very useful skill, and the 250 on top of it is a nice bonus, though I wouldn't be against lowering it JUST a smidge, maybe to 210 or so, give or take.

    Nature's Fury on the other hand is a little less... balanced. The ability has some real oversights, the biggest one being that it has no, or extremely miniscule drop off. I feel like that was a design oversight, I really do, because the thing does 350 at any range. I've seen it hit less than 350 once or twice, but it was only dropped to 310 or 309. Not sure what the drop-off is, but it almost never fails to hit 350.

    Don't give me that 210 crap, nobody leaves it on the ground. Ever. It certainly isn't hard to hit in the air either seeing as the wielder has a damn shotgun. You miss it, that's on you.

    Another issue is that if you're close enough, the shotgun pellets actually go through the bomb itself, and if you're using the heavy shotgun especially, you can get anywhere from 600 to 700 damage in one trigger pull. Isn't that just a little much?

    Not to mention, if viewed in the preview option, you can observe this ability having a 15 second cooldown, but in-game it's got 10. 10? Really? The Bola has a longer cooldown at 12 seconds and it does 10 damage! It's damage threshold is 325, which is less, and you need your team, (or at least yourself) to actually shoot the guy to reach that damage potential.

    The Bola that actually does damage has a cooldown of just a bit over 20 seconds.

    Why does a guaranteed 350 damage bomb need a 10 second cooldown?

    The worst part about this is that these two abilities, while being similar in nature (Damage dealing, repellent attacks) you can still use them both at the same time, effectively making you a powerhouse, rather than a support character like he was designed to be. ( Or at least claimed to be designed around.)

    So, he turns into a class who can link his abilities together solely because of how they work...

    Powershot someone for 250, throw a fury at them since you pushed them into perfect range for it, shoot it, and voila, they've already taken 600 damage, not counting you shotguns damage.

    His other two abilities, Leyline and Chain Lightning are almost non-existent. The only time I've seen them used outside of my own play is when my buddies used them, and I had to ASK them to do it.

    Leyline is good, don't get me wrong, but it needs a little more from the player than just shooting a big glowy bomb with a gun that could cover the entire side of a barn with holes with one shot.

    You first must have a teammate within casting range. This ability is not usable alone, which pushes his support role a little further. You almost must aim and fire as you normally do, but now you have to make up for the increased recoil of the faster fire-rate. Essentially, this ability is more based on player skill, rather than just being inherently powerful.

    Probably why nobody uses it... Lol

    It's a support skill and from what I've gathered, it's designed rather nicely. Though I noticed, just like Nature's Fury, it also has a 15 second cooldown in the preview and a 20 second cooldown in the live game. I'm sure these are just base cooldowns they used during testing, but it looks like Fury ended up giving 5 seconds to Leyline. GG git gud scrub Sentinels the hardest class to use.

    But jokes aside, let's move onto lightning.

    Chain Lightning is still a mystery to me... It claims it does 150 PER jump, yet I've only seen it hit 150 and then 10 right afterwards. I've also seen it hit 300 and then 10 on two vampires side by side before, not really sure what happened there either.

    My buds and I speculate that it only gains 150 damage a jump when it jumps between TEAMMATES, and that extra 10 is some kind of "reset" that pushes the damage back down to 150 if it hits a vampire.

    Which makes me wonder on how it works...

    Let me be visual for a moment. LEt's say Xs are teammates and the Numbers are enemies

    Does it keep the amount of damage if it jumps to a teammate's FIRST then to a vampire?

    You > X > 300 > 300 > X > 450 > X > 600

    Or does it work like this?

    You > X > 300(10) > 150 > X > 300 > X > 450

    If it works like #2, it would be pretty... well, goofed, because it would mean to gather a 600 damage lightning, you'd have to do this

    You > X > X > X > 600(10) > 150(10) > 150(10) > 150(10)

    It'd require too much teamwork and positioning to really be worth a single shot of 600 on a vampire. Even if you were planning on slinging a 600 on a specific Vampire, it'd be entirely situational and based on chance, since Vampires both control the flow of battle, and can just straight up hide when they're hurt.

    However, it might be a little TOO good if it works like this

    You > X > X > X > 600 > 600 > 600 > 600

    Really? And on a 5 Second cooldown? That'd be nuts, though it would take proper positioning and timing to execute, and I've not done it yet, so maybe it's worth the reward? Can't say, I feel like once some people sat down and figured out how to cast the 600 lightning flawless every time, it might be stupid.

    Still, I'm not certain on how it works, as I've never seen anything higher than 300 and I have no idea how I got it on TWO vampires right next to each other...

    I think Lightning either needs some love, or needs some light shed on it.

    Oh, and please make it a bit more flashy. Currently, it looks and sounds like you're casting an Eldritch Guard that damages people. You guys have a gorgeous lightning effect on the guns, as well as sound, use something like that!

    So, for the BM, essentially, put Leyline and Chain Lightning in the same ability slot and put Powershot and Nature's Fury in the same slot, that way, you can choose one heavy hitting ability and one support elemental ability.

    It'd work out nicely. You can choose from a repelling, but weaker attack, or a more powerful, yet unstaggering ability. Then choose from a guaranteed damage support ability, or a risky ability that can possibly get you more results than lightning could.

    It'd make the class much more interesting, because as of now, its Savagery, Power, Nature. Running Lightning, Leyline is almost certain to be twice as difficult to play than the other setup.

    To touch more on Natures fury, a friend of mine suggested, if it HAS TO HAVE no drop-off, which I think is silly, why not make it directional?

    What I mean by this is instead of it having a circular AoE, why not balance it out and make it only do damage in the direction you shot, almost like a claymores blast radius, a wide cone in front.

    That way, it'd take a little more positioning and skill to use it, and to give it something to work with, maybe if the cone hits, it does a guaranteed 300 and staggers. Eh?

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    TL;DR

    Lower Savagery Damage or attack speed (Preferably damage)

    Change Nature's Fury so it doesn't always, ALWAYS hit 350 and give it a higher cooldown

    Make Lightning better, or if it's already good, make it more clear on how to maximize it's use.

    Don't touch Leyline

    Move the ability choices around to where you have to pick on damage dealer and one elemental support

    Ex (Powershot or Nature's Fury) is Q and (Lightning or Leyline) is E

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    Phew, that's all I have for the Beastmaster as of right now.

    Eventually I'm going to touch on Sentinels and Tyrants and how they're slowly catching on and becoming the meta because of their easily linked CC skills.

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Raptr0s; 29th Mar 2016 at 19:38.

  2. #2
    A lot to digest here... I'm all in favor of moving Nature's Fury to primary slot and Leyline to secondary. The "support" skill is supposed to go there anyway, right? It would be consistent with other classes and make a more balanced loadout. Also agree that Savagery needs a little nerfing. I'd say attack speed feels perfect as-is; just tone down that damage. Melee should not be preferred over a loaded gun. It would still be a viable talent at 220ish.

    Chain Lightning is confusing, yes. I don't know whether it's truly worthless or I'm just using it wrong. For the rest, I think we need more time to witness BM at full potential before deciding on other balance tweaks.

  3. #3
    Agreed, he hasn't been out too terribly long, but it's already clear to see which of his skills and set-ups are easy to use.

    I finally caved and started actively using Nature's Fury instead of once here and there.

    I don't think I managed to ever hit under 350, or even miss the target with my heavy shotgun, even when the bomb was furthest away. I'd always hit it

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Raptr0s
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    TL;DR

    Lower Savagery Damage or attack speed (Preferably damage)

    Change Nature's Fury so it doesn't always, ALWAYS hit 350 and give it a higher cooldown

    Make Lightning better, or if it's already good, make it more clear on how to maximize it's use.

    Don't touch Leyline

    Move the ability choices around to where you have to pick on damage dealer and one elemental support

    Ex (Powershot or Nature's Fury) is Q and (Lightning or Leyline) is E

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1) I don't feel Nature's fury needs nerf...mainly cause shotguns do very little damage (unless BM is in front of you), so BM wont do much more damage than the ability itself...you just gotta know when to retreat.

    2) I do agree on nerfing the savage Perk, 300 dmg seems just too much.

    3) Also agree on Lightning buff...it's popo as of now. Needs faster cast and longer range to be useful...mostly longer range.

    4) I never used Leyline, powershot just seems better for me.

    5) I don't feel that we need to change any abilities from primary to secondary, vice-versa...i think some abilities are just better, that's why we don't use them.

    6) I feel the Fire bird ability could use an AOE increase also.

  5. #5
    Bump

    Would like more feedback

    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    1) I don't feel Nature's fury needs nerf...mainly cause shotguns do very little damage (unless BM is in front of you), so BM wont do much more damage than the ability itself...you just gotta know when to retreat.

    2) I do agree on nerfing the savage Perk, 300 dmg seems just too much.

    3) Also agree on Lightning buff...it's popo as of now. Needs faster cast and longer range to be useful...mostly longer range.

    4) I never used Leyline, powershot just seems better for me.

    5) I don't feel that we need to change any abilities from primary to secondary, vice-versa...i think some abilities are just better, that's why we don't use them.

    6) I feel the Fire bird ability could use an AOE increase also.
    1 - I disagree, as it would be the only explosive ability in the game that doesn't have any damage drop-off. The game needs to follow it's own rules, it can't just break them whenever it wants, otherwise things start feeling shoed in and gimmicky. Also, shotguns do PLENTY of damage, it's just hard to get the most out of them, since you're already in close range and you have to be rather precise to hit every pellet. Regardless, don't trash your shotguns quite yet. I have a buddy of mine who uses the heavy shotgun that has 2000 spread and he gets along just fine, even more so with leyline, which used in tandem, can melt even tyrants in only a few seconds.

    2 - Agreed. 300 damage with that attack speed can out damage most vampires even when they are at full health. Why even use a shotgun at that point?

    3 - Longer range doesn't sound bad, since it's weak as of now. If it had long range, it wouldn't need a cast speed increase, since you're not in any immediate danger. If it gets some kind of damage overhaul, it's speed and range as of now MIGHT be okay, but there's no way to tell until it gets changed.

    4 - Leyline is great and a hell of a lot of fun, I would suggest you give it a try sometime soon. If you can handle the increased RoF and recoil, it can be a MONSTER of a skill. To be honest, I'd like its cooldown to be around 15 or 16 seconds instead of 20, but hey, that's just me being greedy.

    5 -I strongly disagree here. Abilities being "just better" is the problem we're trying to fix here. If everyone were to use Power and Nature, why even take the time to develop Leyline and CL? You're just wasting resources at that point. BM has a strong feeling of support, and I do believe he was designed to be mostly support, so if you take his support abilities away from him, and give him straight solo abilities, it makes for a really lopsided character.

    6 - It's the only ability I haven't used yet. People tend to use it incorrectly, as it's designed to be a chaser/finisher moves on wounded vampires trying to escape. It seems a little awkward to use, so I'm not sure if an AoE increase is needed or not.

    ~~~IDEA~~~

    Why not give the Savagery talent to the VAGUARD instead of the Beastmaster?

    Hear me out,

    First off, the BM already has plenty of CQC capabilities and if you give him too many options, he can't possibly utilize them all.

    The Vanguard could benefit from Savagery quite nicely as he already his harder than the other humans at 150.

    I feel like it'd make more sense for him to have a 100% increase (definitely not 200%) bringing him to 300 damage.

    See, he swings MUCH slower than the BM, and since 300 hits harder than any axe he throws, it'd be actually viable.

    A waraxe user MIGHT not feel the need to use this skill, they may use additional arms to increase their already low count.

    But this talent would fit a kama or especially a splitter hatchet nicely, since they hit a little lighter.

    I don't know, I feel like this'd make more sense lore-wise and gameplay-wise on a Vanguard instead of the Beastmaster...

    what do you think?
    Last edited by Bazielim; 5th Apr 2016 at 23:01. Reason: merged consecutive posts