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Thread: This is the official wishlist for the next TR game (TR11)

  1. #51
    Oh yeah? Well lets hear it then "don't be a sheep", how is the current itteration of the series more original than the previous? Can you even name a game like the pre reboot tomb raiders on the market today?

    I'll add that always online systems should not be in the next game (snuck that in on the quiet SE it seems just like hitman).

    Tying manual grabs among other things to cards is annoying enough but then making cards only work online and actually kick you out of the game if you lose your connection is plain disgusting. That's just the steam version the windows store version in keeping with Microsofts old amazing plan won't even start unless your online.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    Here's one from me:

    Don't unnecessarily cave in to fan pressure for things like dual-pistols or classic outfits if it disrupts the character. If you have a great creative vision for Lara in TR11, stick to it. Don't be a sheep.
    +1

  3. #53
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    @gitb97
    some of the wishes are already on the list or are very similar. maybe have a good look at it and provide me the numbers please.


    @tecstar
    driber summed it up why i havent added your "wish" to the list. its like a contradiction to this entire list here. also it doesnt sound like a wish, more like an advise to the developers. and i would say they still stick to their integrity because how many wished for laras classic clothing since 2013? quite a bunch. and did we get it? no. none of the clothing in rise are related to the classic. the same with the lara/sam relationship. sam is not even mentioned at all besides for that audio recording.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post

    @tecstar
    driber summed it up why i havent added your "wish" to the list. its like a contradiction to this entire list here. also it doesnt sound like a wish, more like an advise to the developers. and i would say they still stick to their integrity because how many wished for laras classic clothing since 2013? quite a bunch. and did we get it? no. none of the clothing in rise are related to the classic. the same with the lara/sam relationship. sam is not even mentioned at all besides for that audio recording.
    Well two people have so far +1 my wish so there seems to be some validity there. As per my previous response to driber it doesn't contradict anything in my opinion. It's a wish that the devs don't make change for changes sake. If dual pistols for example appear in TR11 because they fit into the character in the game rather than just being stuck in there because fans want it then that is what i am wishing for. But hey, your in charge, i'll get over it.
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    Perhaps if you simplified the wish? Perhaps something like: "Don't make any unnecessary changes that disrupts your vision of Lara". Then add an explanation in your post.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    I guess this is a point where we just have to disagree.
    What made her unique was the intelligent strong female lead character in an action adventure. Not her accent, not her cup size, and not the damn dual pistols either - to be fair though, you got a point.
    I strongly disagree with those statements. What made Lara were absolutely her accent, her ironic dual guns, and her cup size. Also her braids and her classic outfit. And her sharp wit and sarcasm. Imagine a Lara stripped of all those things and she would've been just another generic videogame character who would have been forgotten about and faded into obscurity after a game or two.

    And why do you feel the need to put "damn" in front of "dual pistols"? You sound angry. As if dual guns is something you personally have an issue with for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    The softer and more british voice was suiting to an experienced and older version of Lara Croft, who could handle anything with ease, IMHO... not so much with a younger and inexperienced version of her.
    That makes no sense whatsoever. A person's accent has nothing to do with their physical or mental abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Not too forced as in not becoming some british stereotype. Not everyone from the islands has a super thick accent.
    Not everyone, no, but a lot, so it makes perfect sense and isn't unrealistic at all if that's where you're going with this.

    And certainly the voice actresses who have voiced Lara have typical British accents. So you're basically implying that those women are "stereotypes". That's kinda offensive, beserene.

    One could also argue that it's just as much a stereotype for an American dev to hire American actors to do fake British accents.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Indeed, you don't lose it, and that wasn't my point, instead you soften it up to a more plain version. I pretty much don't know anything about Camilla, nor do i care if she's "obsessed" with any culture or not. I'm strictly talking about my opinion regarding how the voice acting sounds to me in the current games, and if it fits the designed character or not - i do like it.
    I see no reason whatsoever to "soften up" her accent and make her more plain. Plain is boring!

    And no, you are not "strictly" talking about how the voice sounds to you. Just a second ago you were pulling the "stereotype" card.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Keeley in your provided sample just doesn't fit the character - or at least the sample itself doesn't.
    You already said that. And I'm saying you can't just make that call on a 10 second sample.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Define "experienced". I bought the first two Tomb Raider games when they came out, played them, loved them. I'm not a hardcore fan of the franchise, and obviously some time passed in between :P
    By experienced I mean having played all the games where those voice actresses starred in.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Anyways, i just enjoy the "new" Tomb Raider games for what they are, and hope they refine it's features further, instead of forcing "old" ones for plain nostalgic reasons.
    First of all, no one is advocating to force anything. Second, there is nothing wrong with nostalgia.

    It's perfectly fine to implement features of the older games when they fit. And they do. And the devs already have implemented much of the older games anyway. And I applaud them for it. Staying true to franchise's roots is a good thing, overall. Of course things shouldn't become stale, that's why a new take on classic elements is a must.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Edit: apropos consistency... wasn't there a movie coming up? I certainly wouldn't say no to a Daisy Ridley voice acting the games as well. At least in my opinion that would suit the character rather nicely.
    When it comes to the films, I personally don't really care who they cast. I see the films more as a standalone thing, separated from the games series, so the film makers have much more room to go wild, as it were. Cast Jeffrey Tambor for all I care

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I strongly disagree with those statements. What made Lara were absolutely her accent, her ironic dual guns, and her cup size. Also her braids and her classic outfit. And her sharp wit and sarcasm. Imagine a Lara stripped of all those things and she would've been just another generic videogame character who would have been forgotten about and faded into obscurity after a game or two.
    If she would be stripped of all these things she wouldn't have a character. You obviously have to replace it.
    Also, didn't her cup size and outfits constantly change?

    And why do you feel the need to put "damn" in front of "dual pistols"? You sound angry. As if dual guns is something you personally have an issue with for some reason.
    Akimbo style is a thing of the 90s and early 2000s - it's entertaining, looks good, but it's unrealistic. Besides, it also doesn't give more options towards gun- & gameplay. The homage in TR 2013 was certainly well done, and i can see it being used again this way.

    That makes no sense whatsoever. A person's accent has nothing to do with their physical or mental abilities.
    Agreed, that doesn't make any sense. I didn't say it either.
    You can not deny that certain types of voices and accents suit certain characters better. That's not just a matter of opinion, voice type casting does exist for a reason.
    My personal opinion stands: i find Camilla to be suiting for the reboot Lara, and her acting is on par. If it's partly limited / weird due the script is another story. Your favorite voice actors aren't bad, on the contrary, they just don't suit a young and unexperienced Lara, again, in my humble opinion.

    And certainly the voice actresses who have voiced Lara have typical British accents. So you're basically implying that those women are "stereotypes". That's kinda offensive, beserene.
    I'm not implying anything, they got cast to fit a certain role. Read above.

    I see no reason whatsoever to "soften up" her accent and make her more plain. Plain is boring!
    So let's go the other way, and give her a super thick cockney accent. Because... plain is boring. But seriously, i just tried to give a logical explanation, don't read too much into it.

    By experienced I mean having played all the games where those voice actresses starred in.
    I can not see the context regarding my opinion towards current voice acting.

    Second, there is nothing wrong with nostalgia.
    It's perfectly fine to implement features of the older games when they fit. And they do. And the devs already have implemented much of the older games anyway. And I applaud them for it. Staying true to franchise's roots is a good thing, overall. Of course things shouldn't become stale, that's why a new take on classic elements is a must.
    Of course not, but keep in mind that nostalgia is just a matter of your own personal memories and emotions. The majority of players probably don't share those.

    If they fit are the key words here.
    This is where i agree with Tecstar70's opinion towards keeping an artistic vision of the reboot, and not trying to please everyone.



    P.S.: i really dislike dissecting posts, and this is the first and last time for me. I thought we share opinions here, and not argue for arguments sake. There's no fight to win, nothing to be right about.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    @tecstar
    driber summed it up why i havent added your "wish" to the list. its like a contradiction to this entire list here. also it doesnt sound like a wish, more like an advise to the developers. and i would say they still stick to their integrity because how many wished for laras classic clothing since 2013? quite a bunch. and did we get it? no. none of the clothing in rise are related to the classic. the same with the lara/sam relationship. sam is not even mentioned at all besides for that audio recording.
    Exactly. Telling the devs to do what they want to do is like telling a person to breathe; it's gonna happen anyway. One of the most wished for things in the previous wishlist was no white ledges and helper icons. We still got white ledges and helper icons

    Quote Originally Posted by dark7angel View Post
    About Camilla as Lara's voice actress, Driber pretty much summed it up perfectly! The fact she has to put on an accent really comes across, it just doesn't sound natural and at times she even slips back into an American accent. And yeah, this is a problem because Lara is English and this has always been one of her trademarks.

    And then there's her performance, which to me is just cringeworthy! It's like she is trying too hard, she overdoes it a lot! While playing TR9, I nearly muted my tv because she was annoying me! And sure, the SAMMMMs and NOOOOOs were a big part of it as well, but personally I find her pitch too high for Lara and I hate how she sounds like she's about to get an asthma attack!

    So yeah, to hell with consistency for consistency's sake! The game would benefit from a more capable and appropriate voice actress for Lara.


    And yeah, I forgot about the breathing thing, lol. Indeed, it is a bit of a cop-out to blame her performance on writing and direction. I seriously doubt Camilla had a professional speech coach with her in the studio telling her exactly how to sound down to the very last syllable. I think Camilla was given more like a general direction, like "make it sound dramatic", and she then proceeded to give her own interpretation to it. And, well, there's dramatic and then there's melodrama. Some actors can pull off dramatic and some just cannot.

    I am fairly confident that someone of the caliber of Judy Dench would have successfully pulled off a convincing dramatic Lara. What do you think, Marta?

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    If she would be stripped of all these things she wouldn't have a character. You obviously have to replace it.
    She would have a character, it would just be a boring one that wouldn't stand out and so she would not have made the impact she did, was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Also, didn't her cup size and outfits constantly change?
    They were adjusted throughout the series, but not in any huge way. No pun intended.

    I was perfectly okay with the differences between Legend, Anniversary and Underworld, for example. It was more a case of fine-tuning a winning formula rather than doing big, drastic changes just to make a grand statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Akimbo style is a thing of the 90s and early 2000s - it's entertaining, looks good, but it's unrealistic.
    So is unlimited ammo, auto health regen and freaking exploding chickens!

    The whole game is built on events that you just don't see happen in real life. In real life, Lara would have long been dead by now. It's all one big unrealistic fantasy. I find "unrealistic" a heavily overused term that just gets thrown out there these days left and right to bolster whatever personal dislikes people have. I just can't take it seriously anymore. Sorry.

    As for the 90s - I don't see how it is at all relevant what the origin date of something is. There are plenty of things stemming from decades ago that still work very well in gaming today.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Besides, it also doesn't give more options towards gun- & gameplay.
    How does it not? All that the devs would have to do is just make the dual guns one of the available weapon choices, alongside the shotgun, bow, grenades, axe, etc. Just like it has been done in TR since 1996 (oh look, another thing from the 90'ies that still works very well to this very day). Simple and effective solution!

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    The homage in TR 2013 was certainly well done, and i can see it being used again this way.
    I agree. I'd love to see many more QTE's where Lara is dual wielding to take out a big enemy. Especially when the player would have to use the left and right shoulder buttons to really simulate the feel of dual wielding and drawing the player into the moment. And it doesn't need to be an either/or thing; it can easily work in conjunction with "free dual wielding" in regular gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Agreed, that doesn't make any sense. I didn't say it either.
    You can not deny that certain types of voices and accents suit certain characters better. That's not just a matter of opinion, voice type casting does exist for a reason.
    My personal opinion stands: i find Camilla to be suiting for the reboot Lara, and her acting is on par. If it's partly limited / weird due the script is another story. Your favorite voice actors aren't bad, on the contrary, they just don't suit a young and unexperienced Lara, again, in my humble opinion.
    I don't see how the existence of voice type casting is relevant to this discussion. We are talking about our preferences for how we would like Lara to sound like, and what actresses would be the best (or who aren't good enough) to be voicing Lara. My point was that the line "Lara travels a lot" to argue that Lara should not have a pure British accent is nonsensical. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger has been living in America for ages, exposed to the American accent in his day to day life constantly, yet he still retains a heavy Austrian accent. There is no reason why Lara traveling a lot would require her to lose her typical accent and adopt an Americanized/general English one.

    And I don't find your opinion all that humble if I may say so. You've been working very hard to bolster it through this whole discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    I'm not implying anything, they got cast to fit a certain role. Read above.
    Lara's voice actresses, including Camilla, are cast to fit a British female voice. This is evidenced by Camilla trying very hard, even forcefully, to sound British (and failing at it).

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    So let's go the other way, and give her a super thick cockney accent. Because... plain is boring. But seriously, i just tried to give a logical explanation, don't read too much into it.
    You wo' mate? Cockney for Lara Croft? You've go'a be mental!

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    I can not see the context regarding my opinion towards current voice acting.
    The context is you're dismissing Keeley as a VA without having played the games she was in.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Of course not, but keep in mind that nostalgia is just a matter of your own personal memories and emotions. The majority of players probably don't share those.
    And why would I care about the majority of players? If the majority of players want dual guns, classic outfit and huge breasts, I bet you'd still be against it. I'm here to give my opinions and preferences. I'm not here to cater or pander to what the majority wants. The majority (i.e. the casual player) wants freaking white ledges, dumbed-down gameplay and instant gratification. Seriously, screw the majority Okay, not seriously. Well, half.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    If they fit are the key words here.
    Right, and there are so many ways to make them fit. Before TR10 was released, some people were against the idea of having Croft Manor in the game. They thought it would never fit and that it's "outdated". (IIRC some even used the "you guys are just driven by your nostalgia" line ). I then suggested a way to make it fit, and lo and behold that was pretty similar to how the manor was introduced in the reboot timeline

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    This is where i agree with Tecstar70's opinion towards keeping an artistic vision of the reboot, and not trying to please everyone.
    I agree as well. If the devs want to, they should include dual guns and the classic outfit in one of the next games, and not trying to please everyone who is against it

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    P.S.: i really dislike dissecting posts, and this is the first and last time for me. I thought we share opinions here, and not argue for arguments sake. There's no fight to win, nothing to be right about.
    And I really dislike people writing to me in a condescending way and telling me what is the right typography for me to use. I respond point-by-point because it's easier and more efficient. Don't read too much into it. If you don't like responding point-by-point, that's on you. You're free to format your replies however you want. But don't try to push your ways onto others with this passive aggressive attitude.

    As for that last part, that sounds like projection to me. I'm not the least bit interested in "winning a fight" or whatnot, but apparently you are the kind of person who thinks in those terms. In fact, it is you who is writing things like "that is not just a matter of opinion". You even went the extra step to underline that part, to make it look more authoritative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    And yeah, I forgot about the breathing thing, lol. Indeed, it is a bit of a cop-out to blame her performance on writing and direction. I seriously doubt Camilla had a professional speech coach with her in the studio telling her exactly how to sound down to the very last syllable. I think Camilla was given more like a general direction, like "make it sound dramatic", and she then proceeded to give her own interpretation to it. And, well, there's dramatic and then there's melodrama. Some actors can pull off dramatic and some just cannot.

    I am fairly confident that someone of the caliber of Judy Dench would have successfully pulled off a convincing dramatic Lara. What do you think, Marta?
    .
    How could you forget about her asthmatic breathing?!! GOSH, that was the worst!

    But yeah, writing and direction aren't responsible for Camilla's bad performance! I'm the first to admit that the writing of TR9 could have been better, but a good actor can do wonders even when given bad writing/direction. I don't even need to go as far as the amazing Judy Dench! Swedish actress Rebecca Ferguson for example (who was in the latest Mission Impossible film) had her first major role in the TV series The White Queen, and let me tell you, that series has some real writing problems, but she just makes it work because her performance is simply amazing! A bad performance on the other hand, accentuates the writing's flaws or worst, hinders an otherwise good work.

    So yeah, a more capable actress would definitely have been able to pull off a convincing dramatic Lara given the exact same writing material that was given to Camilla.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    ...
    And yeah, I forgot about the breathing thing, lol. Indeed, it is a bit of a cop-out to blame her performance on writing and direction. ... I think Camilla was given more like a general direction...
    True, it was maybe a little too much, but overall i wouldn't be so sure about it being her fault. Maybe her character was intended to grow from the wimpy Lara to the "older" more experienced one. She didn't start as the Tomb Raider.

    Anyways she certainly sounds different in RoTR, and even more in CDA - btw., played it yet?

    You even went the extra step to underline that part.
    I tried to highlight a non-opinion. They casted for reboot Lara with their new artistic vision, not for "old times sake", and my personal opinion is that Camilla was good at it what she was supposed to do. I grew on her voice and find it fitting to the "new" character.

    Did the devs go a little bit over the top with her "asthmatic breathing", "nooos", and overall "wimpiness"? Maybe.
    Maybe they've seen The Descent too often, or Camilla forced them to binge watch Grey's Anatomy...
    Either way, the quality of her moaning is good

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    Here's one from me:

    Don't unnecessarily cave in to fan pressure for things like dual-pistols or classic outfits if it disrupts the character. If you have a great creative vision for Lara in TR11, stick to it. Don't be a sheep.
    I could not disagree more strongly. I LOVE the dual pistols, I LOVE the classic outfit. These are symbols of Lara Croft. Being a sheep is sacrificing the integrity and identity of the character for political correctness.

    The 3 pillars (classic outfit, dual pistols and Croft Manor) are the staples whose occasional appearance keeps an evolving Lara connected to the series roots. Despite me being a TR for 20 years I can't be a fan of a Lara to which these things are not relevent. Of course they don't need to be in every single game but I would be jumping for joy if CD put them in occasionally. Tecstar if you want to deny us something so many TR would love so much then fine but from my perspective it seems in bad taste to post a wish to block these if there were only in as optionals. I could add negative wishes reboot Lara but I am really not that petty and get that many other people really like options that aren't to my own taste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Error96_ View Post
    I could not disagree more strongly. I LOVE the dual pistols, I LOVE the classic outfit. These are symbols of Lara Croft. Being a sheep is sacrificing the integrity and identity of the character for political correctness.

    The 3 pillars (classic outfit, dual pistols and Croft Manor) are the staples whose occasional appearance keeps an evolving Lara connected to the series roots. Despite me being a TR for 20 years I can't be a fan of a Lara to which these things are not relevent. Of course they don't need to be in every single game but I would be jumping for joy if CD put them in occasionally. Tecstar if you want to deny us something so many TR would love so much then fine but from my perspective it seems in bad taste to post a wish to block these if there were only in as optionals. I could add negative wishes reboot Lara but I am really not that petty and get that many other people really like options that aren't to my own taste.
    You may have misunderstood me. I never said don't put those things in. I love the dual-pistols as much as the next TR fan and look forward to their re-appearance. What I am saying is don't just perform fan-service in putting this stuff in the game in an irrelevant way just because people ask for it, make it meaningful in the context of the game and Lara's character.
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    So... why does Lara not have the dual pistols in 'Rise'? Did she not have them at the end of 'TR2013'? Pretty sure I didn't imagine that...

    Then again, I also thought 'TR2013' was the origin story of Lara becoming Lara (again, see the ending of 'TR2013'), but evidently I was wrong about that as well since it's evidently carried over into 'Rise'...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    You may have misunderstood me. I never said don't put those things in. I love the dual-pistols as much as the next TR fan and look forward to their re-appearance. What I am saying is don't just perform fan-service in putting this stuff in the game in an irrelevant way just because people ask for it, make it meaningful in the context of the game and Lara's character.
    Okay now I get more what you mean. I don't really see the dual pistols as out of place considering the calibre of other weapons already within the game. The season pass deviated a lot from what is directly TR especially with the zombie mode so I feel that in the pass or future similar things would be the ideal time to add these crowd pleasers without compromising the narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    What made her unique was the intelligent strong female lead character in an action adventure. Not her accent, not her cup size, and not the damn dual pistols either - to be fair though, you got a point. Those details overall form the character of course.
    The softer and more british voice was suiting to an experienced and older version of Lara Croft, who could handle anything with ease, IMHO... not so much with a younger and inexperienced version of her.
    If Toby Guard and Core hadn't been so bold with their choices maybe Lara would have never had that same impact to make 'Lara Croft' a worldwide brand. Everybody knows of the dual pistols, cup size, accent so is a success. Also the demographic of gamers was very different and games far less story driven then so a subtle character may not have lasted.

    With the accent I am curious as to why you say a more British voice would make her seem more experienced. If she has been in England for many years then starts exploring worldwide surely she would start with a stronger accent then lose it.

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    Okay here are my votes

    Gameplay
    13. less verbal hints from Lara on puzzles
    14. Larger/ more difficult puzzles
    17. Manual grab to stay
    37. more exploring and less action.


    location & design
    4. Fully explorable Croft Manor
    6. Urban skyline levels
    35. more colorful hubs. not added with a gray filter.


    misc
    1. No more exclusivity deals.

    outfits
    2. Return of Classic outfit
    7. Lara dresses more stylish
    8. Lara in an elegant dress like Legend
    9. Attire options from classics/LAU
    47. Less combat orientated outfits


    story & characters
    11. Lara has more a sense of wit and humour
    24. Letting Lara meet characters from the pre-reboot titles, even if it's a two second easter egg


    vehicles
    22. Use of vehicles. Like ships, planes, bikes, etc.

    voice & audio
    12. Replace Camilla Ludington as voice of Lara
    15. Utilise 'ah ha' plink for secrets
    16. Nathan Mcree to be involved in composing
    18. Theme tune to have elements of original theme


    weapons & gear

    3. Return of Dual Pistols

  16. #66
    It would be cool to see some form of Tomb Raiding where the goal is to get treasure, less story stuff... isnt that what the books and comics should be for anyways now that am thinking about it. Playing Assassins creed Rogue and it oddly feels more like Tomb Raider due to the treasure hunts than ROTRR. Maybe the TR brand for exploration puzzle solving type games it just kinda dead now in favor of these story games that are sorta meh?

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  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    You may have misunderstood me. I never said don't put those things in. I love the dual-pistols as much as the next TR fan and look forward to their re-appearance. What I am saying is don't just perform fan-service in putting this stuff in the game in an irrelevant way just because people ask for it, make it meaningful in the context of the game and Lara's character.
    I want to ask a question. Looking at ROTTR what stands out as being out of context is the cards - unusual sized heads, exploding chickens and of course zombie mode in the season pass. These seem far more blatantly against narrative/context than Lara wielding two pistols or wearing shorts. Do you also have issues with these features appear or only implementation of the classic features?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgetkfisher View Post
    It would be cool to see some form of Tomb Raiding where the goal is to get treasure, less story stuff... isnt that what the books and comics should be for anyways now that am thinking about it. Playing Assassins creed Rogue and it oddly feels more like Tomb Raider due to the treasure hunts than ROTRR. Maybe the TR brand for exploration puzzle solving type games it just kinda dead now in favor of these story games that are sorta meh?
    What would you call the Divine Source then, if not a treasure? Lara may have destroyed it in the end, but her entire journey in Rise was in search of the artefact following the myth of the prophet and Kitezh. The extended story just adds depth to the tomb raiding. This is what I enjoy about CD's games, how they incorporate real myths with their own interpretation. I enjoyed delving into the myths behind immortality both in TR'13 and Rise.

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  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Rai View Post
    What would you call the Divine Source then, if not a treasure? Lara may have destroyed it in the end, but her entire journey in Rise was in search of the artefact following the myth of the prophet and Kitezh. The extended story just adds depth to the tomb raiding. This is what I enjoy about CD's games, how they incorporate real myths with their own interpretation. I enjoyed delving into the myths behind immortality both in TR'13 and Rise.
    A wasted opportunity, these treasures and tomb raiding elements are great but for the past 2 games have been in the shadows, little snacks on the side. You say her entire journey was about the search for the artifact but if you look at it really that and everything around it is squarely in the background, it is actually fighting trinity, cinematic set pieces and lara's daddy issues that take centre stage. Same with the 2013 reboot it is all Sam, Johnah, Rayes, Roth (more daddy issues) Lara being beaten up (so much that it loses any semblence weight becoming almost self parody) everything other than tomb raiding is the focus.

    The pillars of gameplay as I think it has been refered to are way out of balance even after rise making a big thing about tombs being back they really aren't not compared to what we had before, they are 1 and done areas each taking only a couple of minutes out of a hours long game. The reviews and fans all pointed out this imbalance in the last game and instead of addressing and making tomb raiding the main course like one would expect while using that name they have just made the snacks slightly bigger this time while doubling down on the survival combat stuff.

    If they put half as much effort in to the tomb raider aspect of the games as they do the combat nowadays it would be great, look at something like mirrors edge and the degree of importance they put on movement/platforming so much so that they don't even use guns and that's from the people who make battlefield. We know crystal can do this stuff better than them so why are they not playing to their and the series strengths anymore instead of making things like zombie dlc .
    Kitezh for example SPOILERS

    the "lost city" has so much potential for exploration and puzzles and yet all you do in it is kill people in it even more so actually than in the previous areas despite it being hidden under a glacier. Having recently played the cold darkness it feels even worse than ever topping even the reboot for the amount of combat in it. Arguably the closest thing to actual tomb raider in the game is to play rise is at the end when you have the place mostly to yourself but by that time you will have done everything and got your golden shotgun (not even dual pistols then really?) anyways and there's nothing left to do but ofcourse shoot yet more goons.
    Last edited by Larafan1996; 3rd Apr 2016 at 03:32.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark7angel View Post
    How could you forget about her asthmatic breathing?!! GOSH, that was the worst!
    Maybe I suppressed the memories of it

    Quote Originally Posted by dark7angel View Post
    But yeah, writing and direction aren't responsible for Camilla's bad performance! I'm the first to admit that the writing of TR9 could have been better, but a good actor can do wonders even when given bad writing/direction. I don't even need to go as far as the amazing Judy Dench! Swedish actress Rebecca Ferguson for example (who was in the latest Mission Impossible film) had her first major role in the TV series The White Queen, and let me tell you, that series has some real writing problems, but she just makes it work because her performance is simply amazing! A bad performance on the other hand, accentuates the writing's flaws or worst, hinders an otherwise good work.

    So yeah, a more capable actress would definitely have been able to pull off a convincing dramatic Lara given the exact same writing material that was given to Camilla.


    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    True, it was maybe a little too much, but overall i wouldn't be so sure about it being her fault. Maybe her character was intended to grow from the wimpy Lara to the "older" more experienced one. She didn't start as the Tomb Raider.
    If it's not her fault, whose fault is it? Are you seriously suggesting she had some kind of a voice coach besides her telling her to lay it on very thick with the breathing thing?

    Well there's "wimpy" and then there's just bad acting.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    I tried to highlight a non-opinion. They casted for reboot Lara with their new artistic vision, not for "old times sake"
    So you're saying that the casting person deliberately cast someone to part Lara from her original accent? I didn't realize I'm talking to a mind reader.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    and my personal opinion is that Camilla was good at it what she was supposed to do. I grew on her voice and find it fitting to the "new" character.
    So you keep telling us, over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by beserene View Post
    Did the devs go a little bit over the top with her "asthmatic breathing", "nooos", and overall "wimpiness"? Maybe.
    Maybe they've seen The Descent too often, or Camilla forced them to binge watch Grey's Anatomy...
    Either way, the quality of her moaning is good
    A low budget porn will get you better quality moaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    You may have misunderstood me. I never said don't put those things in. I love the dual-pistols as much as the next TR fan and look forward to their re-appearance. What I am saying is don't just perform fan-service in putting this stuff in the game in an irrelevant way just because people ask for it, make it meaningful in the context of the game and Lara's character.
    You know, I would love it if the classic outfit and dual guns make a reappearance in a grand, spectacular way that is totally part of the story line. But with so many silly things in the reboot games, such as big head cards, crazy medieval armor, zombie mode, and freaking exploding chickens, I just fail to see the necessity of it doing it one way or another. In a game that is basically trying to emulate a bleeding RPG, just casually adding the dual guns as yet another choice of weapons, and just casually adding the classic outfit as yet another choice of outfits, wouldn't be out of place at all.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with fan service. We already had fan service in the very first game of the reboot series, for Pete's sake!

    Quote Originally Posted by WinterSoldierLTE View Post
    So... why does Lara not have the dual pistols in 'Rise'? Did she not have them at the end of 'TR2013'? Pretty sure I didn't imagine that...

    Then again, I also thought 'TR2013' was the origin story of Lara becoming Lara (again, see the ending of 'TR2013'), but evidently I was wrong about that as well since it's evidently carried over into 'Rise'...
    Nope, no dual guns in TR10.

    TR9 was only part of the origin story. In total it's supposed to be a trilogy origin story; spanning 3 games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Error96_ View Post
    Okay now I get more what you mean. I don't really see the dual pistols as out of place considering the calibre of other weapons already within the game. The season pass deviated a lot from what is directly TR especially with the zombie mode so I feel that in the pass or future similar things would be the ideal time to add these crowd pleasers without compromising the narrative.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Error96_ View Post
    With the accent I am curious as to why you say a more British voice would make her seem more experienced. If she has been in England for many years then starts exploring worldwide surely she would start with a stronger accent then lose it.
    Good point! Indeed, beserene's logic was not only nonsensical, but it even works against her own argument.
    Last edited by Driber; 3rd Apr 2016 at 21:16. Reason: .

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemma_Darkmoon_ View Post
    I want to ask a question. Looking at ROTTR what stands out as being out of context is the cards - unusual sized heads, exploding chickens and of course zombie mode in the season pass. These seem far more blatantly against narrative/context than Lara wielding two pistols or wearing shorts. Do you also have issues with these features appear or only implementation of the classic features?
    No not at all because I see these elements as separate to the story line and character development. They are add-on game modes that are purely designed to provide additional gameplay. I haven't played Cold Darkness Awakens yet, however, so I don't know how much or little "story" there is, but although I am not a zombie fan I am not against them in principle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    You know, I would love it if the classic outfit and dual guns make a reappearance in a grand, spectacular way that is totally part of the story line. But with so many silly things in the reboot games, such as big head cards, crazy medieval armor, zombie mode, and freaking exploding chickens, I just fail to see the necessity of it doing it one way or another. In a game that is basically trying to emulate a bleeding RPG, just casually adding the dual guns as yet another choice of weapons, and just casually adding the classic outfit as yet another choice of outfits, wouldn't be out of place at all.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with fan service. We already had fan service in the very first game of the reboot series, for Pete's sake!
    See my reply above to Gemma and no there is nothing wrong with fan service, but as someone who likes to invest in characters and storylines for Lara to just pick up dual pistols and start leaping about a' la classic TR just because fans want it would ruin the character/story. When it happens (because I believe it will) I want to see it done it a way that fits the reboot Lara universe. Apparently that's anti-fan and goes against the idea of a wishlist.

    Am I weird to want to see a coherent character development and storyline? A load of stuff I read about games is that they didn't make sense and weren't believable. All I am asking for is a believable character development and I am surprised that others don't want this too. Fine, give her dual-pistols without explanation. Turn her into the classic TR character without explanation, as long as people don't moan that CD didn't develop her character properly so in two games time they have run out of steam.

    NB: when I talk about coherence, believability etc I am fully aware that many elements of games are none of these in real life, but in the world of the game things like supernatural beings or not dying from gunshot wounds can still be "believable".
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  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    No not at all because I see these elements as separate to the story line and character development. They are add-on game modes that are purely designed to provide additional gameplay. I haven't played Cold Darkness Awakens yet, however, so I don't know how much or little "story" there is, but although I am not a zombie fan I am not against them in principle.
    You can't pick and choose that dual pistols are out of place but an exploding chicken or a zombie horde is fine. I am for coherence but a part of that is coherence with Lara Croft and that includes putting some of her signature things in. Their inclusion is minor to modernist fans but it could hugely sway many classic fans' opinion on the reboot as whole. I believe it would unify fans behind the reboot direction so end up good for all.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel_Wing View Post
    You can't pick and choose that dual pistols are out of place but an exploding chicken or a zombie horde is fine.
    I am not doing that. Read my post again. "I see these elements as separate to the story line and character development. They are add-on game modes that are purely designed to provide additional gameplay."

    I do not see dual-pistols as "out of place" in principle. I am saying if they are going to be included then do it in a good way. Its like if in Rise Lara suddenly pilots a helicopter. Without context you would say " how the hell can she do that?". "Oh but the fans thought it would be good" would be a rubbish reason. (Cue protests that flying a helicopter cannot be compared with dual-pistols, but that's not what I am saying)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel_Wing View Post
    I am for coherence but a part of that is coherence with Lara Croft and that includes putting some of her signature things in. Their inclusion is minor to modernist fans but it could hugely sway many classic fans' opinion on the reboot as whole. I believe it would unify fans behind the reboot direction so end up good for all.
    So what you are saying is to make the game more popular, to hell with logical character progression just turn her into classic Lara again, just like that, and all will be great with the reboot? Forget about how difficult it might be for her character to perform acrobatic moves or shoot accurately with two pistols, just stick them in because we want it.

    I am not saying I don't want these things, but to just drop them in now without context would disrupt the reboot characterisation. Whether you like the reboot or not it's here so lets just try to make the most of it, and in my view having believable character development is doing just that. (believable in the context of a video game and its looser definition of "believable")

    If people are unhappy with the story as it is then they could go and play classic Lara until reboot Lara is where they want her to be. Everyone else can enjoy the storylines and characterisation as they progress. I don't mean to be flippant but this game is not about a straight copy of classic Lara. If this is the TR universe we have been given then lets make it as good as it can be and in my opinion just shoving stuff into the character development willy-nilly is not the way to do it.
    Last edited by Tecstar70; 4th Apr 2016 at 12:13.
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