Page 2 of 2 First First 12

Thread: League Beta 5.0 is Live!

League Beta 5.0 is Live!

  1. #26
    Originally Posted by HexMee
    Could one of the devs PLEASE for the love of god sit down at the office and spend 3 minutes of your precious time removing the 10 second countdown before match starts in leagues!?

    I'M SICK OF NOT GETTING A GAME FOR HOURS ON END BECAUSE PEOPLE LEAVE DURING THE COUNTDOWN BECAUSE THEY SPOT MY NAME IN THE LOBBY THROUGH STEAM OVERLAY!

    You've had 5 months to fix this issue and hundreds of people telling you that it's broken and you haven't bothered when you could fix the problem by changing ONE DAMN VARIABLE in your code!
    this

    also all other bugs but too lazy to repeat myself 10 times when they wont get fixed anyways.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 4th Feb 2016 at 07:53.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    I like most of what Farnbeak said:
    Originally Posted by Farnbeak

    B. The Money.
    There's also a big sack of money thrown out each leagues season, but it works the same crude way as if you throw it out in a public place - it will breed some sort of competetiveness, sure, quite a few will have their noses broken for a few banknotes. But what will people have with them in the end? Each one having spent significant time participating in an unequal nontransparent and not entertaining in itself metacompetition, chosen few will get compensated with money and most will end up despondent and frustrated.
    What adds up to the frustration is that the major feedback on that issue is explicitly ignored. What I've said above is not new, even the top skilled players capable of breaking quite a few noses - the direct beneficiaries here - have shared their critisism and concerns and so had enough responsibility to effectively vote against money raining on their heads. (Kudos to you, people!)
    I, and many fellow ESL players have, over the last year or so, unanimously pleaded against money in leagues. Why would you not put higher prize pools in ESL, smaller monetary rewards for lower tier teams and much larger prizes fo top teams. Currently, you get Runestones in ESL, and money in Leagues... the exact opposite should be the case.

    I don't mind you putting small amounts of cash in Leagues, but if it were 50 for Top 10, 30 for top 50 and 20 for Top 100, noone would care much! 1k on the other hand...
    All it does is breed flamers.
    You either get flamed to death or you live long enough to see yourself become the flamer
    Why is it that people that have less that 25hrs recorded on Steam join into Leagues? I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they would stay within their Rankings. If I start out the League a week late and get placed in Silver, why do I have New Recruit Bronze idiots on my team and get to fight Blood and Eternal players?
    The Ranking system is solely based on the binary win/lose rewards. Either you win 14 or you lose 1 - that way almost noone gets the placement they really deserve.

    Originally Posted by Farnbeak
    2) I believe Leagues should not be a separate game mode!
    This I sort of disagree with, then again, I wouldn't mind you removing Leagues alltogether.

    Originally Posted by HexMee
    I'M SICK OF NOT GETTING A GAME FOR HOURS ON END BECAUSE PEOPLE LEAVE DURING THE COUNTDOWN BECAUSE THEY SPOT MY NAME IN THE LOBBY THROUGH STEAM OVERLAY!

    You've had 5 months to fix this issue and hundreds of people telling you that it's broken and you haven't bothered when you could fix the problem by changing ONE DAMN VARIABLE in your code!
    Yup! This is a Beta, so we are testing things... the same things... over and over again.
    Apart from Party Size, what changes were made since the original League back in early 2015?
    It all seems very futile to me.


    Frankly, I am getting sick of complaining about it - we all get worked up over it, nothing is being done, 6 weeks later it starts all over again. Exhausting.

  3. #28
    Originally Posted by Ysanoire
    Every game I play has separate ranked and unranked mode. It's because people want to decide when they play for points and when they don't. You want ranked modes to be different so you can enforce "responsibility" for the matches (leaver penalties, no hotjoining etc), but you always want to have a mode where results don't matter. Soon you'll also want to have a place to do challenges in.
    Not every game I play now or have played in somewhat recent past has a separate Ranked mode. This includes 100% pure online competetive titles. Not that its a valid argument/counterargument by itself anyway.

    I agree with your explanation of the benefits of a separate ranked mode.
    But below that statement you quoted there are a couple of additional sentences to give extra context. I believe that introducing a separate ranked mode is a complex decision and so there is solid comparative analysis (between all alternatives) to be made at current game state.
    One example (no depth here for the sake of speed):
    1) Ranked as a ranking table to complement existing game mode(s)
    VS
    2) Ranked as a separate game mode with ranking

    To simplify comparison lets just take all the background and values as we have them now:
    League Points distribution nonzero-sum, strongly favours Quantity of games played
    Leaver penalty is minimal (more in remarks below)
    Matchmaking Rating (MMR) value for players is universal across the modes

    Comparing 1 over 2:

    Pros: Double the playerbase, so
    - Better Matchmaking -> Fairer Competition, more substance to the win/loss -> Higher Score relevance
    - Shorter Queue/wait times
    Cons: only one set of rules possible
    - Hotjoin on/off (I imagine its no Hotjoin then)
    - Time-penalties for leavers universal

    Now whats the magnitude of those factors? Those cons have significance, sure.
    But for scarcely populated Nosgoth 'Matchmaking' and 'Queue time' improvement is HUGE if you double the population in a mode. And those 2 factors are like the essense and the face of a competetive game, respectively.

    Separating ranked and nonranked is an option for games with bountiful playerbase such as Dota/LoL/CS:GO/Hearthstone and even much less populated titles like R6S where only the number of preorders is enough to guarantee an adequte Matchmaking and Queue times are easily measured in seconds. Playercount no longer has a significant impact in those games and they can afford weighing that decision in favour of 'Split'.
    What makes up the essence of ranked mode in those games is its close to or zero-sum (win=~loss points), and so the Rank it generates is meaningful and is used for separate Matchmaking in that mode! Your rank is effectively your MMR for that mode. Another + is that leaver penalties are unevadable and harsher/progressive - a reason to separate it to a 'noncasual' mode.

    Remarks:
    - Mode where results don't matter?
    a) Why would you want such a mode if the results are 90% positively skewed? Do you want a mode with no XP accumulation for instance? Such Nonranked modes make sense in the majority of the other games, where you can lose the same ranked point value as you win. In Nosgoth you can lose and lose and lose in a row and win just one accidental easy game to be in overall +.
    b) If we had only one TDM with rankings and the majority of players there, I'm absolutely sure we would have at least one other game mode open for us for goofiness purposes . Even now we have that 5v5 available. And before league implementations we had those FP and CPB modes.

    - Leaver penalty is not only minimal, but as it is now it can be evaded completely. Lobbydodging + it can be evaded if match actually starts. And then if you are slow and leave later you suffer only timeout penalty, no points penalty (I have actualy just tested it for the sake of this comment - got same points and even better ranking! Was 30th to become 28th in my division, nice!) I still believe this is not intended and will be remedied in the future, hence moved this point to remarks.

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    I agree they should stay separate. It would put off a lot of players if they were expected to play at the same level of skill as those who do so for a living. It takes an awful lot of time to reach that level of skill and regular TDM would be needed to practice far beyond the new recruit level. I maxed out my player level a year ago and still don't stand a chance in eternal. I'm stuck playing my best classes (Alchemist and Deceiver) just to keep up in league and I know I'm not the only one. I normally stop once I reach Blood for the in-game prize and go back to TDM to use the other classes an play with my friends.
    Whaaaa...whaat? I mean you share your experience with the current system that feels more like 'frustration' and vote for status quo - "they should stay separate"? I don't quite understand...
    "It would put off a lot of players if they were expected to play at the same level of skill as those who do so for a living" - aren't you describing the existing league with your personal examples there?

    You said you have been playing this game game for at least a year - then you remember it before the Leagues. Was there such an 'expectation'? I don't think so. My proposition is based on that 'The One TDM' we always had back then in preLeague period, so I really do not understand how you link that 'expectation' to my idea. I even used that IOS puzzle game with leaderboard analogy there...
    If its the $ and prize structure that breeds that expectation - then you may have skipped B. The Money and the reward structure section in the end of my comment.
    Last edited by Farnbeak; 5th Feb 2016 at 06:53. Reason: MMR <-> Rank

  4. #29
    @Farnbeak, it sounded to me like you were suggesting that the normal TDM should be removed and league be the main mode, which I would hate. If that's not what you meant, then I misunderstood and I apologise.

    If it was up to me, I'd rather just grind for cool skins and weapons using the upcoming challenge/reward system and leave professional gamers to compete over the cash prizes separately, although I don't expect many people to go for that set up. It would require some sort of league mode, although much more like ESL than the current incarnation of league.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  5. #30
    Originally Posted by Farnbeak

    But for scarcely populated Nosgoth 'Matchmaking' and 'Queue time' improvement is HUGE if you double the population in a mode. And those 2 factors are like the essense and the face of a competetive game, respectively.

    Separating ranked and nonranked is an option for games with bountiful playerbase such as Dota/LoL/CS:GO/Hearthstone and even much less populated titles like R6S where only the number of preorders is enough to guarantee an adequte Matchmaking and Queue times are easily measured in seconds.
    Then maybe Nosgoth (in particular its playerbase size) isn't ready for ranked mode yet. I just know that personally I don't want to fight for score all the time, especially when there are rewards involved (but we already all agree on the money). I do see your point tho.
    Last edited by Ysanoire; 5th Feb 2016 at 03:57.

  6. #31
    A short summary of my thoughts after reading (and playing) so far:

    1. I'd love to get runestones instead of keys as ranked rewards. Don't care about cash with the current implementation of ranking.

    2. The current implementation of earning rank in Leagues is garbage and always has been. Grind games for rank? Why is there rank for time put in?

    3. New players need a restriction for competing in Leagues. I figure almost everyone will disagree with this, but it needs to happen. Level 30 or higher should be adequate. Another alternative would be to have 2 leagues; for new players and veterans. New player league would have much less substantial rewards and you enter into it by being under level 30. You continue in the new player league until a league season begins when you are over level 30.

    4. Matchmaking, man... What else is there to say? However, having grouped people in the leagues definitely hamstrings what matchmaking exists.

  7. #32
    For the league banners you could possibly just change the color of the design instead of gold every season do purple for one then blue for the next one etc. Would be a easy change to the league banners since i have played every league which means i have like 6 duplicate league banners i believe.

  8. #33
    @DaWolv, @YsaNoire, @Vampmaster,

    Thanks for your replies, guys.
    I have added extra yellow clarification in the first post to make it clear that I have nothing against Ranked as a separate mode by concept (I actually love it in other games), its just the Nosgoth implementation and the cost we pay here for a very meager benefit.

    I have also expanded the second comment with a very important point on Ranked mode difference in other successful games.
    They all use meaningful ranking systems and base their Matchmaking in that mode on Ranks!
    AFAIK Nosgoth still uses your MMR which is the same for both modes. This is where my concern of current Ranked having little justification for being separate stems from.
    Last edited by Farnbeak; 5th Feb 2016 at 07:59.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by Farnbeak
    - Hotjoin on/off (I imagine its no Hotjoin then)
    Hotjoin can be made to work! See below.

    Originally Posted by Farnbeak
    What makes up the essence of ranked mode in those games is its close to or zero-sum (win=~loss points), and so the Rank it generates is meaningful and is used for separate Matchmaking in that mode! Your rank is effectively your MMR for that mode. Another + is that leaver penalties are unevadable and harsher/progressive - a reason to separate it to a 'noncasual' mode.
    See below.

    Originally Posted by Ysanoire
    Then maybe Nosgoth (in particular its playerbase size) isn't ready for ranked mode yet. I just know that personally I don't want to fight for score all the time, especially when there are rewards involved (but we already all agree on the money). I do see your point tho.
    Originally Posted by TheDreamcrusher
    1. I'd love to get runestones instead of keys as ranked rewards. Don't care about cash with the current implementation of ranking.
    Yes

    Originally Posted by TheDreamcrusher
    2. The current implementation of earning rank in Leagues is garbage and always has been. Grind games for rank? Why is there rank for time put in?
    See below.

    Originally Posted by TheDreamcrusher
    3. New players need a restriction for competing in Leagues. I figure almost everyone will disagree with this, but it needs to happen. Level 30 or higher should be adequate. Another alternative would be to have 2 leagues; for new players and veterans. New player league would have much less substantial rewards and you enter into it by being under level 30. You continue in the new player league until a league season begins when you are over level 30.
    Disagree.

    All they have to do is confine people to their ranks! If you are bronze, you play with other bronze and silver players to move up! If you are Silver, you play with bronze and gold players. If you are Eternal, you play with other Eternals and max. Blood II.
    If the matchmaking has too little players to make it work, then it can mix, but REWARD PLAYERS ACCORDINGLY:
    I.e.: If you are Silver and lose to Eternals 31:0 -> -1/0 points,
    if you are Silver and lose against Eternals 43:41 -> +5-8 points
    If you are Eternal and you lose against Bronze and Gold players -> -4-9 points.


    THE VALUES NEED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT YOUR RANK (NOT MMR!!!) AND ENEMY RANK AS WELL AS PERSONAL PERFORMANCE

    Hotjoin can also be enabled under this system, by evaluating the game (as of the second a new player joins) and skewes the negative rewards accordingly. You could say, if a hotjoin is already lost, you still gain 1-2 points - since there was nothing you can do - if however you manage to turn it around and (almost) win, you will be rewarded like a normal win (since you also saved some time, presumably -> same points, less time played)
    For this to work, however, there should be a pause function in the game, where the game stops after 3-5 seconds after a client disconnected and restarts once the slot has been filled, or the team that lost a player votes to continue.

    I know this sounds like a lot of work - and it is - but why are we still testing the same League system we did back in September? There should be numerous systems in place (pause, voting, karma/reporting, bug reporting) before the League was even put on the table. The ping system was also one of those things, and look how long that took!
    I say focus on those supplementary systems first!.

  10. #35
    @Da_Wolv

    Sounds great. I hope we get a chance to test something else out and this would be fine by me.

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by Da_Wolv
    THE VALUES NEED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT YOUR RANK (NOT MMR!!!) AND ENEMY RANK AS WELL AS PERSONAL PERFORMANCE
    So all you do then is to stay back as much as possible as human and as vampire you always engage last to get a lot of kills/dmg. What a solution.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 7th Feb 2016 at 03:26.

  12. #37
    Originally Posted by kLauE187
    So all you do then is to stay back as much as possible as human and as vampire you always engage last to get a lot of kills/dmg. What a solution.
    You misunderstand. He means league rank.

    To the devs... For the love of God, do something. I'm on my last nerves with carrying players who Pounce and die alone to a group of 4 humans. I think I've been awfully forgiving playing this game as long as I have but for some reason today, it really hit me how much I don't enjoy this game.
    Last edited by Bazielim; 7th Feb 2016 at 03:27.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    750
    Originally Posted by kLauE187
    So all you do then is to stay back as much as possible as human and as vampire you always engage last to get a lot of kills/dmg. What a solution.
    I didnt say that it is irrelevant if you win or not. The bulk of the points should still be awarded based on the score of the match, incentivising team work. Besides, staying back being greedy for kills is not what gets you good score half the time anyway.
    If you are in too late, you risk getting rekt 2+v1

  14. #39
    When do we get 5.0 reward money?

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by R3dLine237
    When do we get 5.0 reward money?
    Never. They don't have enough money to even keep the game going, much less reward anyone.
    After the forum goes down, I can be found on Steam, Twitter, and Facebook.

  16. #41
    You should have received an email from ESL on Sunday asking for your payment details. ESL should hopefully be sending payment out at the end of the month.
    Square Enix Europe Community Manager
    Square Enix Europe Community : Facebook | Twitter | YouTube | Twitch

Page 2 of 2 First First 12