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Thread: Such a tease >.<

Such a tease >.<

  1. #51
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    I believe what KaininitePriestess is talking about was the talk of, and the near happening of, a fatal paradox. "Remember, we are irritants in this regard, as well. History will not allow the introduction of a paradox." "And if events cannot be "reshuffled" to accommodate the change?" "It is the irritant who's expelled."

    "And I saw by the dawning horror on Kain's face that perhaps we had strained history too far this time ... that by trying to alter my fate, he may have introduced a fatal paradox."

    Whatever action is taken against an event in time, it can't undo too much, especially the events that would lead to meeting at that time and place (the very reason Kain attempting to kill his former self is absolutely impossible in this universe (yeah, Dead Sun; that means you)). The EG is woven very much throughout history and its events. Attempting to remove him in any time could very well cause such a paradox. History, if pressed too far, will win out against such a fatal paradox and will, instead, remove that which is trying to do it in the first place ("the irritant"). So, Kain, were he to have the means to even try, would be wiped out before time would. (I see GenFeelGood posted the same thing, yes)

    But then there's the bigger issue: Kain no longer has the means to create a paradoxical moment in the first place, having only one Reaver and no Raziel to work with.
    Yup, that's pretty much what I meant. They aren't allowed to cause something as severe as the loss of the Elder God at least as far as we've seen into Nosgoth's future, though his presence in the future may be weak enough that he can now. And who's to say that that's not the entire reason the EG was trying so hard to kill Kain in the first place? Perhaps he knows that Kain can take him out now and was hoping to circumvent his own destruction! ;'D

    I always wondered if Raziel's sacrifice gave Kain the means to be that paradox. Perhaps having the Reaver in it's present state and with Kain being healed of the corruption, he's able to do things that would have otherwise been impossible to him! It's an interesting thought.

  2. #52
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    vae victus, i mean subscribe

    Edit: whops this should have been in the reaver replica thread. This is what happens when you have multiple tabs open, and you don't pay attention
    Last edited by Uggabugg; 4th Dec 2015 at 21:57.
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  3. #53
    I know, I cracked up so hard! XD That's how you know he's "One Of Us"!

  4. #54
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    Yup, that's pretty much what I meant. They aren't allowed to cause something as severe as the loss of the Elder God at least as far as we've seen into Nosgoth's future, though his presence in the future may be weak enough that he can now. And who's to say that that's not the entire reason the EG was trying so hard to kill Kain in the first place? Perhaps he knows that Kain can take him out now and was hoping to circumvent his own destruction! ;'D

    I always wondered if Raziel's sacrifice gave Kain the means to be that paradox. Perhaps having the Reaver in it's present state and with Kain being healed of the corruption, he's able to do things that would have otherwise been impossible to him! It's an interesting thought.
    ...Kain isn't a paradox. And he was trying to kill Kain in the first place just because Kain's species didn't serve him any benefit. And as long as Kain and his kids kept making vampires, the Elder God would go hungry. Kain wasn't able to take him out though because Kain wasn't even aware of him. Though at Defiance's end, I think it's said that the purified Reaver can damage the Elder God where no other weapon could. So yeah, Raziel's sacrifice gave him that.

    So he may cut the EG out of various eras he's got his hand in then skip back to present-day (SR) to finish the deed once the EG's got nowhere left to run or hide.


    Actually, what Raziel did raises some questions. What exactly clouds the Elder God from Kain's (and Moebius') sight in the first place, and why? (And if it's the corruption: Shouldn't Moebius technically be uncorrupt now given his death? And why aren't there Papa Squid sightings from all the non-magically-corrupted types through history?)

    Y'know, given this elaborate method for purifying a corrupt Guardian, one must commend the Ancients on their foresight...But not so much on their simplicity.

    One wonders, given how purifying the corruption both reveals the Elder God and arms the person with the only thing able to hurt him, if whatever Ancients who devised this whole failsafe hadn't defected at some point (perhaps even glimpsing the EG's true form - maybe they were dying and moving into spectral just as the blood curse was cast which pulled them back), devising this whole trial simultaneously as a means to arm some future champion for deicide. This would explain the complexity of the whole process as well. Gonna go for deicide, you need someone worthy of the task, patient, determined...


    @Hylden: Kain has the means to do anything he pleases now. For, you see, Kain has The Tube.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 4th Dec 2015 at 22:09.

  5. #55
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    This all gets really, really deep in the spoiler weeds again:

    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    ...Kain isn't a paradox. And he was trying to kill Kain in the first place just because Kain's species didn't serve him any benefit. And as long as Kain and his kids kept making vampires, the Elder God would go hungry. Kain wasn't able to take him out though because Kain wasn't even aware of him. Though at Defiance's end, I think it's said that the purified Reaver can damage the Elder God where no other weapon could. So yeah, Raziel's sacrifice gave him that.
    As the EG states, after Raziel views the Scion of Balance mural: "Your fate is trivial, Raziel. It was Kain's destiny that mattered all along." The EG most certainly was out to destroy Kain, to stop him from fulfilling his role as the Scion and from getting the only weapon to wield that could do him harm. As he states later to Raziel, "Your efforts are wasted, Raziel. That weapon you bear, however endowed, remains only a wraith-blade. It cannot touch me!"

    The Reaver is not purified. The wraith blade that healed Kain was, but Raziel going into the sword is not. The sword is about just as it always was, with the notible change in the enhancements from the Balance Emblem Kain collected, but Kain can see the EG and is alive to wield it. That is the major difference now.


    Actually, what Raziel did raises some questions. What exactly clouds the Elder God from Kain's (and Moebius') sight in the first place, and why? (And if it's the corruption: Shouldn't Moebius technically be uncorrupt now given his death? And why aren't there Papa Squid sightings from all the non-magically-corrupted types through history?)

    Y'know, given this elaborate method for purifying a corrupt Guardian, one must commend the Ancients on their foresight...But not so much on their simplicity.

    One wonders, given how purifying the corruption both reveals the Elder God and arms the person with the only thing able to hurt him, if whatever Ancients who devised this whole failsafe hadn't defected at some point (perhaps even glimpsing the EG's true form - maybe they were dying and moving into spectral just as the blood curse was cast which pulled them back), devising this whole trial simultaneously as a means to arm some future champion for deicide. This would explain the complexity of the whole process as well. Gonna go for deicide, you need someone worthy of the task, patient, determined...
    The corruption of the Pillars isn't what is blinding them from seeing the EG. No-one can see it even before the corruption. Besides the very abstract statues and figures seen in both SR1 and 2, no evidence that anyone ever has been able to truly see him, before Raziel and later Kain, has ever been shown. That was the whole point Raziel makes at the end of Defiance. As Raziel states, "But I was armed with newfound knowledge and it burned within me. Moebius had never seen his master until the Soul Reaver purified his sight. Even the ancient vampires had no idea what it was they so righteously worshiped. All the conflict and the strife throughout history, all the fear and hatred, served but one purpose -- to keep my master's Wheel turning. All souls were prisoners, trapped in the pointless round of existence, leading distracted, blunted lives until death returned them -- always in ignorance -- to the Wheel." So, it's not the corruption. What it perhaps could be is simply the power of the EG, and no soul not purified by the Reaver can fight that spell everyone is basically under. This is a purification that transcends the corruption of the Pillars, at any rate. Sight beyond sight, you might say.

    As for the Ancients who prophesied this, it was the original Time Guardian who saw the prophecy, as much as we can glean. He appears to still believe in the Wheel of Fate and the propaganda of the belief in his god when Raziel confronts his spirit in Defiance. Perhaps this is a front, but he doesn't let on. It is possible, and I would hope likely, that he knew more than what he was telling about this all. Think about how crazy this elaborate scenario is that winds up purifying the blade: They prophesied two champions -- a vampire one and a Hylden one -- who would do combat. The outcome would arm the Scion of Balance for his true endeavor with the Reaver. However, they predicted two outcomes. The vampire one could just as easily fall as their enemy's could have, which we now know is more ambiguous in nature anyway. But, to arm the Scion, the vampire champion has to both activate forges and collect relics to imbue the blade. Some of those forges are spirit forges, with sacrifices made of their very own Ancient Guardians. Either the forges and artifacts were unintentionally made to arm both champions, arming their very enemy, or someone did know more than they were telling. Janos recognizes Raziel as the vampire champion foretold by the murals immediately, despite his appearance. Yet, the very Guardians, including the Time Guardian who prophesied this all, all attack him and admonish him for being a spirit defying the Wheel of Fate, as if he's the Hylden champion. More is definitely going on than has been revealed.


    @Hylden: Kain has the means to do anything he pleases now. For, you see, Kain has The Tube.
    Yes, with the Tube Reaver and his ability to command cheese, Kain is truly Invincible!




    The other thing, Kain did not gain free will at the end of Defiance and no, he's not a walking paradox able to change time, so he cannot simply bring about a new alteration like that to the timeline.

  6. #56
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    Yet, the very Guardians, including the Time Guardian who prophesied this all, all attack him and admonish him for being a spirit defying the Wheel of Fate, as if he's the Hylden champion. More is definitely going on than has been revealed.
    Aren't they themselves defying the Wheel by sticking around though? Jerks. XP
    I don't seem to recall any mention of where the prophecy actually came from. Probably some Defiance dialogue I no longer remember. Only played that one once.

    (Unrelated: The designs of those Guardians are all kinda samey. Very disappointing. )

    There's a statue built by an old Elder God cult that is reminiscent of his features (mainly his tentacles and many eyes, though it arguably depicts something reminiscent of a large face topped with a mitre which might lend credence to the idea of his 'head' existing someplace secure while the tentacles and eyes everywhere are more expendable appendages). One wonders if they had somehow managed to see him while no one else could. Might it be that the Hylden saw through as well to some degree, fueling their denial of his doctrine (and perhaps sealing their fate...)
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 8th Dec 2015 at 21:57.

  7. #57
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    I thought Daniel Cabuco had elaborated on this, but I can't find the post (if it exists). I'll agree wit the Wiki in saying the original Time Guardian of the vampires most likely prophesied this all (rather than saying he did emphat6ically). If not him, though, than who, one wonders. He had (or should) the power to see through all of Time, after all.

  8. #58
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    I thought Daniel Cabuco had elaborated on this, but I can't find the post (if it exists). I'll agree wit the Wiki in saying the original Time Guardian of the vampires most likely prophesied this all (rather than saying he did emphat6ically). If not him, though, than who, one wonders. He had (or should) the power to see through all of Time, after all.
    Maybe he can only see through a time period he is destined to have lived? IDK, it's a good question, though.

  9. #59
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    Is this the post you're looking for? I can certainly picture the Guardian drawing false conclusions from the prophetic visions afforded to her, out of bias (just as Raziel does in the final moments of Soul Reaver, and Moebius in Defiance).

    And yes, speaking of which, we should probably acknowledge that this character was female, not male (though it's not as if there are many clues to go on beyond the voice, to be perfectly fair )


    (click image to enlarge)
    Last edited by Bazielim; 14th Dec 2015 at 14:37. Reason: image fixes
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  10. #60
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    Ah, well that post will suffice. It might be what I was thinking of. Thanks, Aevum.

    And the problem with those scenes is that they have two Guardians, no lip movement, or animation happening when they speak, and since they're both dead and rotted, it's very hard to know who's speaking. Dark Chronicle has them reversed, though Ardeth does point out that it is hard to know who is speaking first.

  11. #61
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    If not him, though, than who, one wonders. He had (or should) the power to see through all of Time, after all.
    Not sure who "he" refers to here so I'll address both versions:

    If 'he' is an unknown Ancient prophet, assumed non-Guardian: Not necessarily. If prophets could see ALL time, Nostradamus would have been a lot more helpful. :P

    If 'he' assumes the first Time Guardian: True but what the Time Guardian sees may not be clear. In Moebius' caves, Raziel witnesses visions of possible paths in time (absorbing Kain and Ariel into the Reaver in that era, presumably playing right into evil's hand by never working with Kain to manipulate the timestream). It may be simply because it's Raziel that he has no single defined path but it may also be that the Time Guardian's glimpses into time are merely of potential branches rather than a linear track. After all, only the 'destiny' points are predetermined so most of time is just some amorphous blob either way.

    Also, as I recall, the Hylden had a counterpart prophecy to the Ancients' - theirs stating the Hylden champion would win, as opposed to the Ancients' saying theirs would - which is what led to Kain and Raziel's confusion over the whole matter. None of the Hylden would have been a Time Guardian so it would seem that position is not strictly necessary to see through time to at least some degree (see also: Prophets, a whole divinatory order of regular folk).

    And are we ever told exactly when these prophecies came about?
    Obviously after the war had begun but anything more specific?
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 16th Dec 2015 at 01:40.

  12. #62
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Another potential topic to be addressed: Just who/what is The Elder God anyway?
    I always thought that The Elder God might be a mutated Sluagh. After all, he seems to share their appetite for souls. My theory is that he was a normal Sluagh somehow got in contact with energy from the Demon Dimension, which caused him to rapidly evolve into what he is when we first see him.

  13. #63
    Originally Posted by RealLoK
    I always thought that The Elder God might be a mutated Sluagh. After all, he seems to share their appetite for souls. My theory is that he was a normal Sluagh somehow got in contact with energy from the Demon Dimension, which caused him to rapidly evolve into what he is when we first see him.
    Implausible. How on earth would Demon Dimension energy somehow makes its way to not only another dimension but the alternate half of that other dimension?

    And everything in the spectral realm eats souls.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 15th Jan 2016 at 05:28.

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