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Thread: Such a tease >.<

Such a tease >.<

  1. #26
    Originally Posted by Chulo86
    everyone wants to play as raziel except for the die hard fans.
    And everyone who wants the story to actually be completed.

    Retelling Kain's story would give no new meaning because it would just be the same story. Rewriting his story is an entirely different thing and would undermine the entire point by destroying the story that everyone (who matters) came to love and wants to see continued in the first place.

    Also, that Soul Reaver 3 idea just sounds like a flimsy recycling of Soul Reaver's first draft ending. Bad show.


    @Gen: That...That all just sounds great. Vorador meeting Elder Kain should absolutely happen in some fashion regardless of everything else. It's just too good an idea after Vorador's initial smugness toward fledgling Kain. Maybe they can even have that long-postponed chess game? Of course, a suitable new Vorador voice must be found. Perhaps Vorador himself might have evolved. Or maybe Kain will have evolved further - because, yet again, I need this character in my life:




    @Aevum: Exactly. Personally, I think reboots should only serve the purpose of mulligans when a first outing proves sub-par. Like the original Hulk movie.

  2. #27
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    And everyone who wants the story to actually be completed.

    Retelling Kain's story would give no new meaning because it would just be the same story. Rewriting his story is an entirely different thing and would undermine the entire point by destroying the story that everyone (who matters) came to love and wants to see continued in the first place.

    Also, that Soul Reaver 3 idea just sounds like a flimsy recycling of Soul Reaver's first draft ending. Bad show.


    @Gen: That...That all just sounds great. Vorador meeting Elder Kain should absolutely happen in some fashion regardless of everything else. It's just too good an idea after Vorador's initial smugness toward fledgling Kain. Maybe they can even have that long-postponed chess game? Of course, a suitable new Vorador voice must be found. Perhaps Vorador himself might have evolved. Or maybe Kain will have evolved further - because, yet again, I need this character in my life:




    @Aevum: Exactly. Personally, I think reboots should only serve the purpose of mulligans when a first outing proves sub-par. Like the original Hulk movie.
    That was an unused concept of Kain. Kain wouldn't devolve now that his soul has been cured of Nupraptor's curse. I suppose if he spent a few centuries in the demon dimension it would have some sort of effect.

    Oh, that's what a game as Vorador could be about! Rescuing Janos from the demon dimension! However young Kain would be a more natural fit into that story. It would feel kind of forced for Elder Kain to appear in that era, as if the whole game had been just an excuse to get him there.

    Actually, I brought up some of his past before as that's where a lot of his more interesting stories are. His creation by Janos, maybe he took part in the battle against the early Moebius/Mortanius team up when humans first rebelled, his attack on the Circle where he slaughtered 6 of the Guardians, his part in BO1 and just afterward.

    BTW, what do you guys think of Richard McGonagle (Sully from Uncharted) playing Vorador in a new game? If he's intentionally speaking with a very formal accent, I think he's sound very close to Paul. I considered John Noble as a good potential Vorador as well. J.K Simmons maybe?
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 11th Nov 2015 at 12:56.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  3. #28
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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Oh, that's what a game as Vorador could be about! Rescuing Janos from the demon dimension! However young Kain would be a more natural fit into that story. It would feel kind of forced for Elder Kain to appear in that era, as if the whole game had been just an excuse to get him there.
    I could just be mistaken, but I thought the devs intended for Elder Kain to actually be the one that went into the demon dimension to wipe out the hylden once and for all?

    Either way, what if Elder Kain's motivation was also to rescue Janos in order to originally have him restore the vampire race in the Soul Reaver era; but after finding Janos, Kain comes to see Janos as a liability due to his unquestioning faith to the Elder God. As a result Kain kills Janos; and then in order to raise his second choice (Vorador), he cuts open Janos and reclaims the Heart of Darkness? Imagine the drama and tension that would unfold if Vorador were to become aware of this, that he is alive again because he carries the heart of his master and maker Janos after he was killed by Elder Kain.

  4. #29
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    I could just be mistaken, but I thought the devs intended for Elder Kain to actually be the one that went into the demon dimension to wipe out the hylden once and for all?

    Either way, what if Elder Kain's motivation was also to rescue Janos in order to originally have him restore the vampire race in the Soul Reaver era; but after finding Janos, Kain comes to see Janos as a liability due to his unquestioning faith to the Elder God. As a result Kain kills Janos; and then in order to raise his second choice (Vorador), he cuts open Janos and reclaims the Heart of Darkness? Imagine the drama and tension that would unfold if Vorador were to become aware of this, that he is alive again because he carries the heart of his master and maker Janos after he was killed by Elder Kain.
    Yes, he would, but Vorador is supposed to have died before Raziel is created, which leaves little room for his story to intersect with Elder Kain. Also, Kain isn't supposed to be able to wipe the Hylden out in the past. It would be one of those fatal paradoxes that cancels itself out because it would remove the reason for Kain going back in the first place. I think it would anyway. I've lost track a bit, but I know SR1 can't be made to never happen. Wiping them out probably isn't the best plan either, except for their leaders (those guys are toast). It was genocide that started the whole mess and Kain wants to rule, not exterminate. Also, their only crime originally was the same as Kain's; defying their fate and not worshipping the Elder God.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 11th Nov 2015 at 13:39.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  5. #30
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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Yes, he would, but Vorador is supposed to have died before Raziel is created, which leaves little room for his story to intersect with Elder Kain. Also, Kain isn't supposed to be able to wipe the Hylden out in the past. It would be one of those fatal paradoxes that cancels itself out because it would remove the reason for Kain going back in the first place. I think it would anyway. I've lost track a bit, but I know SR1 can't be made to never happen. Wiping them out probably isn't the best plan either, except for their leaders (those guys are toast). It was genocide that started the whole mess and Kain wants to rule, not exterminate. Also, their only crime originally was the same as Kain's; defying their fate and not worshipping the Elder God.
    Consider this then, elder Kain doesn't raise Vorador with the Heart of Darkness in the Soul Reaver era because he already did so in the time after the Blood Omen era. Elder Kain could be the one responsible for ressurecting Vorador. This is after elder Kain goes to the Demon dimension (in the Soul Reaver era, that is when I meant he would), kills Janos, and harvest his heart. Kain ressurects Vorador shortly after Vorador's execution and then travels forward in time to shortly after the events of Blood Omen 2, at this time Vorador could be on the run from young Kain; and elder Kain appears before Vorador, offering him an escape to an era in the future where he could truely begin again.

    I agree that Kain must restore the Pillars, deal with the hylden, as well as restore the vampire race and it's control over those Pillars in the era following Soul Reaver era. That is why I believe we ultimately have to go back there in order to actually start fixing things. All we can do in the past is collect what we need to do so and I'd like it if Vorador was among what was brought to that era of possibilities.

    We believe that young Kain killed Vorador after Blood Omen 2; but that appears to be speculation or an assumption, not really set in stone.

  6. #31
    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    That was an unused concept of Kain. Kain wouldn't devolve now that his soul has been cured of Nupraptor's curse. I suppose if he spent a few centuries in the demon dimension it would have some sort of effect.
    I'm aware that it's an unused concept. I submit that its unuse is a terrible crime. Though I had forgotten the whole "Kain's pure now" thing...But yes, he could degenerate in the demon dimension!

    I'd also forgotten that Janos is trapped. We'll definitely need that resolved.

    I do rather like the idea of Elder Kain seeking out Janos in the demon realm for aid in restoring the Pillars, only to reluctantly end him via violent heart surgery upon realizing his zealotry to the Elder God...Follow up with Vorador's resurrection...(Or maybe the reluctant kill comes later, after Janos has become the EG's new active agent and a legitimate obstacle - cue awesome boss fight! - though one hopes that Kain might pull back the veil from Janos' sight in his dying moments. Poor guy deserves some measure of redemption.)

    Vorador forged the Reaver, after all, which is the weapon that will kill the Elder God. He would undoubtedly be a grand ally. Perhaps the blade might need further enhancements to get the job done for good, something Vorador must help with...(Though in that case, it shouldn't take up more than one quest. Defiance seemed like 75% of the game was just enhancing BS.)


    In any case, Vorador's past is a gold mine. His turning, forging the Reaver, wars he surely got embroiled in, whatever business he had with the Seer, the Circle slaughter...His ongoing grudge with Malek...Maybe we'd finally learn who that mystery woman is...And of course, what events finally sent him, hedonistic and reclusive, into the Termogent swamps. Awful, even hostile environment for anyone, but only truly deadly for vampires with their unique weaknesses - was he hiding from someone?


    An idea about the Hylden: They reject the Wheel. Both its death cycle (hence my belief that they sought immortality - and had in fact perfected the method for it, though the war forced them to cast it upon the Ancients instead). But as Vamp noted elsewhere, the Wheel of Fate also includes the doctrine of predestination. They rejected that too.


    So: The Reaver is the key to free will, isn't it? Rather, the convergence of multiple Reavers, that shrouds "destiny" in the moment of contact. Perhaps if they were to return again to the material realm - and I fully support that occurrence - their plan might involve harnessing that function on some grander epic scale as yet unseen (indeed unimagined) in Nosgoth...
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 12th Nov 2015 at 08:58.

  7. #32
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    Janos recognized Kain in Blood Omen 2, no introduction needed. How Janos knew of Kain was never explained, so here is what I picture for the chain of events leading up to Vorador arriving in the era following the events of Soul Reaver. Also factoring in for an alternative chain of events so Vorador comes to stand with Kain against Janos.

    Kain finds the now imprisoned Janos in the aftermath of Defiance, declaring who and what he is. Kain asks for answers as to how he might enter the demon dimension. Janos answers his questions under the promise that Kain will free him; but Kain walks away after getting what he needs, telling Janos that he will keep his word in due time (a nod to his younger self freeing Janos some centuries later in Blood Omen 2, as well as releasing him from the hylden in the demon dimension).

    Kain returns to his era in the future and enters the demon dimension to free Janos, so he can restore the vampires and the Pillars under their control; but after freeing Janos and bringing him up to speed, Kain is betrayed by Janos and nearly locked away in the demon dimension. Kain moves forward with his plan but realizes he must now resort to his next best chance to make things right, by enlisting Vorador in the past and bring him into this era. Kain knows from his new set of memories when to best approach Vorador with his offer and travels to that era. Vorador reluctantly agrees to the offer; but is unaware that Janos is free and working for the true enemy in that era.

    Halfway through the course of the game Vorador and Janos discover in an exchange that both of them carry the Heart of Darkness. Vorador can't understand how that can be; but he can tell that Kain immediately suspects how, once he learns of it.

    Vorador and Kain eventually kill Janos together. Janos dies realizing the truth and reveals how to restore the Pillars then lock them once and for all. As Janos passes away, his eyes meet Kain's and Janos tells Kain he is ready. Kain then proceeds to rip out Janos' still beating heart. Vorador demands an explanation for this defilement; and Kain reveals that the only reason Vorador would have the Heart of Darkness now, is if that is how he was ressurrected in the past.

  8. #33
    ^ Bravo. Poor Janos. (Sidenote: Raziel, combined with his own soul [the wraithblade] are now in Kain's Reaver - does this effectively impart Raziel's own walking-paradox-machine status upon Kain? To create a situation where two actual Hearts of Darkness can exist simultaneously must require a little more time-shuffle, right?)

    Another potential topic to be addressed: Just who/what is The Elder God anyway?

    He claims to be the "hub of the Wheel", the "engine of life" but that sounds like bunk to me. The spectral realm is a place for dead things, not divine engines of life and reincarnation. Raziel once accused him of just being a lying parasite exploiting the cycle and he certainly does behave like one. Though one wonders, if Raziel is correct, who or what is truly operating the Wheel...

    Gotta say, the EG being the guy behind all this destiny and stuff doesn't pan out. "Your destiny is to enter a sword and imbue it with the power to kill me!" smacks of being entirely too suicidal for him.

    Which would also answer "Who (if anyone - maybe just some unknown cosmic thing) actually plucked Raziel from oblivion in the Abyss?"

  9. #34
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    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    ^ Bravo. Poor Janos. (Sidenote: Raziel, combined with his own soul [the wraithblade] are now in Kain's Reaver - does this effectively impart Raziel's own walking-paradox-machine status upon Kain? To create a situation where two actual Hearts of Darkness can exist simultaneously must require a little more time-shuffle, right?)

    Another potential topic to be addressed: Just who/what is The Elder God anyway?

    He claims to be the "hub of the Wheel", the "engine of life" but that sounds like bunk to me. The spectral realm is a place for dead things, not divine engines of life and reincarnation. Raziel once accused him of just being a lying parasite exploiting the cycle and he certainly does behave like one. Though one wonders, if Raziel is correct, who or what is truly operating the Wheel...

    Gotta say, the EG being the guy behind all this destiny and stuff doesn't pan out. "Your destiny is to enter a sword and imbue it with the power to kill me!" smacks of being entirely too suicidal for him.

    Which would also answer "Who (if anyone - maybe just some unknown cosmic thing) actually plucked Raziel from oblivion in the Abyss?"
    It was when the two incarnations of Raziel's soul occupied the same space that the temporal distortion occurred. I doubt the two hearts would ever get that close; but that said, it would be interesting if that occurred on some level where the deciding moments are.

    From what I understand (and I hope someone more informed corrects me if I'm wrong) the Wheel of Fate is a naturally occurring mechanism, like a current in the ocean. There is no consciousness behind it; but rather it is created by it's environment, the conditions were right and it came into being.

    From what I understand (I also hope someone more informed corrects me if I'm wrong here as well) the Elder God is an entity that has hijacked this mechanism. It sustains itself off the souls that pass through, draining the souls of energy and then releasing them back into the current while offering nothing in return, a purely parasitic relationship.

    I believe Raziel came about on his own; but the Elder God did alter him before he awakened.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 13th Nov 2015 at 21:40. Reason: correcting my auto correct

  10. #35
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    the Elder God did alter him before he awakened.
    How so?

    And I wasn't suggesting that the hearts could distort time like that. I was asking...Eh, doesn't matter now, it was nonsense. I think I'd just gotten confused by all the time travel stuff.

    But yes, the possibility of Janos and Vorador's shared Hearts of Darkness rippling time similar to that could be interesting.

    Ah, so the Wheel is just some ineffable cosmic thing then. Nonetheless, the origins of the Elder God interest me. He appears to be the only sapient life native to the spectral realm, and he grew to such power that his mass writhes throughout it, and even occupies the material plane somehow simultaneously...

    It'd be interesting to see what he began as, how he came to latch onto the Wheel and slip across the dimensional borders...And why his appetite is so unbridled as to drive him to parasitism on such an epic scale. It was said somewhere by an old LoK staff fellow that killing the Elder God might take place over multiple time periods or realms, a big climactic affair. Perhaps the final blow would be struck against him in some time near his origins (or to the time, at least, of his ancient cult), and answer such things.

  11. #36
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    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    How so?
    Because unlike other wraiths, Raziel was able to reenter the physical realm without needing his original body like the others. How else could Raziel have attained this power if it wasn't granted to him by the Elder God (who can exist in the spectral and material realm, as well as in the veil between them) so he could pursue Kain.

    Edit
    Perhaps there could be temporal distortion whenever Vorador holds the Heart of Darkness. What if Vorador is the one that places the freshly harvested Heart of Darkness within the corpse of his past self, that might create some major ripples?

    Let's say my theory that the Wheel of Fate is a naturally occurring mechanism that the Elder God has hijacked. To try and describe how, imagine the Wheel of Fate is a river that connects to Nosgoth at both ends. After death soul departs Nosgoth, enters one mouth of the river, travels through the river, and then reenters Nosgoth through the other mouth of the river to begin a new life. Now, imagine the Elder God has completely blocked an area of the river, now any soul that comes through must now pass through the Elder God and he takes a piece of every soul that passes through. This pound of spirit flesh the Elder God takes could also contain the memories, which could be why no one remembers their past lives in this universe. Perhaps after the Elder God is no more that could be possible, imagine a human remembering once being a circle guardian or one of Kain's lieutenants.

    This next theory goes a little further out there. Perhaps the Elder God's presence in the Wheel actually slows the flow of that figurative river, causing the area of river leading up to him to be somewhat stagnant. This stagnation could be responsible for the creation of the realm we know as the Underworld or Spectral Realm, where spirits linger and eventually become twisted. While it might not be a popular thought, what if killing the Elder God dissolves the underworld as the Wheel of Fate returns to it's proper flow?
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 15th Nov 2015 at 04:39.

  12. #37
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    Because unlike other wraiths, Raziel was able to reenter the physical realm without needing his original body like the others. How else could Raziel have attained this power if it wasn't granted to him by the Elder God (who can exist in the spectral and material realm, as well as in the veil between them) so he could pursue Kain.

    Edit
    Perhaps there could be temporal distortion whenever Vorador holds the Heart of Darkness. What if Vorador is the one that places the freshly harvested Heart of Darkness within the corpse of his past self, that might create some major ripples?

    Let's say my theory that the Wheel of Fate is a naturally occurring mechanism that the Elder God has hijacked. To try and describe how, imagine the Wheel of Fate is a river that connects to Nosgoth at both ends. After death soul departs Nosgoth, enters one mouth of the river, travels through the river, and then reenters Nosgoth through the other mouth of the river to begin a new life. Now, imagine the Elder God has completely blocked an area of the river, now any soul that comes through must now pass through the Elder God and he takes a piece of every soul that passes through. This pound of spirit flesh the Elder God takes could also contain the memories, which could be why no one remembers their past lives in this universe. Perhaps after the Elder God is no more that could be possible, imagine a human remembering once being a circle guardian or one of Kain's lieutenants.

    This next theory goes a little further out there. Perhaps the Elder God's presence in the Wheel actually slows the flow of that figurative river, causing the area of river leading up to him to be somewhat stagnant. This stagnation could be responsible for the creation of the realm we know as the Underworld or Spectral Realm, where spirits linger and eventually become twisted. While it might not be a popular thought, what if killing the Elder God dissolves the underworld as the Wheel of Fate returns to it's proper flow?
    The same way Kain lives on without a heart, I imagine. Some inexplicable gift of destiny. I tend not to think that the Elder God granted this power but that he did alert Raziel to it and provide the planar portals, fooling Raziel into a dependence that was never necessary (as he learns in Defiance). Basically, if not for the Elder God's guidance, Raziel would still have been capable of shifting but unaware of this capability or even its possibility, rendering him stranded in the spectral realm regardless.


    If Vorador places the Heart in his own corpse, that may create some ripples. Nothing nearing a Reaver convergence, I'd imagine. Though we'd then have the odd event of Vorador resurrecting to meet himself. And it's not a sure thing that it'd have any temporal effect anyway. Reaver convergence creates the paradox of a wraith devouring itself. Vorador placing the Heart into himself in the past wouldn't be much different than Kain replacing the Reaver at Avernus for his younger self to find.

    I wonder how long Janos will languish in the demon realm. It twisted the Hylden's form, perhaps it would twist him...He surely wouldn't escape unscathed.

    Reincarnation in fiction never imparts the past life memories in any accessible conscious manner. I'd doubt it has anything to do with the Elder God. And I don't think he stagnates spirits - though he definitely stagnates Nosgoth overall, igniting his destructive wars and all, ruining advancement...

    Stagnation, I think, would be a natural stage of the cycle. One cannot be reborn without a new vessel to house the soul. I think the dead wander the spectral realm until their intended new life is born into Nosgoth, at which point they complete the cycle.

    Diagram of the Wheel: Life > Death/Cleansing > Stagnation/Limbo > Rebirth

    To borrow the river analogy, they travel one river (life). It leads to a whirlpool (cleansing) which deposits them into the lake (death). The other river is barred by a floodgate. Souls linger in the lake (spectral realm) until the appropriate vessel is born into the material realm (floodgate opens) and they enter the second river to loop back around and reconnect to the first (rebirth). Now, to explain the whirlpool:



    I'd say that their memories do not carry over regardless of the EG. Think of the soul as having two parts - the basic essence of what is the 'soul' form the 'core', and the memories, thoughts, experiences, etcetera form a 'mantle' around it.

    Note that the Wheel is referred to as a "cleansing" cycle. Most souls are blanked out, like the floating things mostly seen to inhabit the spectral plane, rendering them fresh and new for rebirth. Notably, the original Guardians still dwell in the spectral realm with distinct forms intact - because Kain has not completed his purge of the Circle so they cannot be cleansed for rebirth. Essentially, the 'rebirth' is less reincarnation, more just outright recycling. The core is reborn while the mantle dissipates into oblivion.


    As for the Elder God's hijacking, I think he waits in the 'lake' and feeds off of the 'whirlpool' - plucking souls free, consuming the mantle, then dropping the core back in to continue its cycle. Rather like a glutton gobbling apples then discarding the cores.
    So rather than the mantle of the soul merely ceasing, it goes to feed him instead.

    Though sometimes his feeding disrupts the cycle, either deliberately or by accident - and this is where the parasite label comes in. Maybe he consumes too much of a soul and leaves only fragments. These souls, derailed from rebirth by his overzealous appetite, languish in spectral limbo to become Shades and the like. Some, like the Archons, he actively pulls out of the Wheel to mold into servants.

    I don't think the Spectral realm would cease to exist with the Elder God's death. But the unnatural spectral fauna - Sluagh, Archons, and such would. Essentially, his feeding distorts the spectral realm from its natural state (soul cores just drifting about harmlessly, waiting for rebirth) to an unnatural state of predatory creatures and abominations.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 18th Nov 2015 at 00:52.

  13. #38
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    what would actually happen if the elder god where to die? he seems to be omnipresent, or at least omniaware. raziel skips back and forward in time quite a bit. he does not seem to remember or know what happens to kain and raziel linearly by our standards. am i making sense?

    raziel starts in the far future, hops back to moebius vampire extinction event, then forward in time again and then back to the age of the sarafan. and all through this elder god converses to raziel as if he did not travel back in time.

    so back to my initial question, what would happen if you where to kill him. would his consciousness end in all eras of nosgoth? and if so what would this mean for its history? a massive massive time rewrite is what i think.

    of course this would only happen if elder god is omnipresent.
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  14. #39
    Originally Posted by Uggabugg
    what would actually happen if the elder god where to die? he seems to be omnipresent, or at least omniaware. raziel skips back and forward in time quite a bit. he does not seem to remember or know what happens to kain and raziel linearly by our standards. am i making sense?

    raziel starts in the far future, hops back to moebius vampire extinction event, then forward in time again and then back to the age of the sarafan. and all through this elder god converses to raziel as if he did not travel back in time.

    so back to my initial question, what would happen if you where to kill him. would his consciousness end in all eras of nosgoth? and if so what would this mean for its history? a massive massive time rewrite is what i think.

    of course this would only happen if elder god is omnipresent.
    I don't get the first bit. He doesn't see what Raziel does because Raziel is a free agent. And those directly involved in Raziel's free-agent actions are at least temporarily shrouded themselves.

    To the rest:

    The Elder God tells Raziel that he is "here and everywhere, now and always" but I personally think he was just boasting a lie - but that it is his end goal to make it true, and that he is at least partially progressed toward that goal

    Thus if you were to kill him, I think it would require attack in multiple eras, sending him retreating in each one before finally going all the way back to his original foothold (the Ancient Vampires, or the "ancient primitive cult" if they're ever expanded upon) and killing him off for good (chasing him into the spectral realm to deal the finishing blows).

    If one were to kill him, obviously, it would disrupt events throughout the whole timestream - given his great effect upon so many eras - and result in an unprecedented degree of temporal shift leaving Nosgoth ultimately in a far more vibrant and advantageous state. Eden-esque.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 3rd Dec 2015 at 04:45.

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    I don't get the first bit. He doesn't see what Raziel does because Raziel is a free agent. And those directly involved in Raziel's free-agent actions are at least temporarily shrouded themselves.

    To the rest:

    The Elder God tells Raziel that he is "here and everywhere, now and always" but I personally think he was just boasting a lie - but that it is his end goal to make it true, and that he is at least partially progressed toward that goal

    Thus if you were to kill him, I think it would require attack in multiple eras, sending him retreating in each one before finally going all the way back to his original foothold (the Ancient Vampires, or the "ancient primitive cult" if they're ever expanded upon) and killing him off for good (chasing him into the spectral realm to deal the finishing blows).

    If one were to kill him, obviously, it would disrupt events throughout the whole timestream - given his great effect upon so many eras - and result in an unprecedented degree of temporal shift leaving Nosgoth ultimately in a far more vibrant and advantageous state. Eden-esque.
    Or it would be such a cataclysmic change to the timeline that the entirety of their world would rip itself apart and then you'd have that paradox of who killed your grandfather if you were the one to go back and kill your grandfather, therefore making it impossible for you to be born? I honestly think that's what would happen if they tried to kill him in the era of the Ancients. He's just too central a character in history to simply wipe him off the board. You would destroy everything. You'd have to go to the present and do it from there and hope that he hadn't caused something in the future where he hadn't been destroyed that would cause the same effect.

    Who knows, maybe that's the End of Times for Nosgoth. He's done so much mucking with the timeline that if you were to ever kill him, no matter what era you chose to do it in, you would cause irreparable harm and destroy everything!

    Luckily, perhaps, there don't seem to be any figures from the future of Nosgoth that have been sent back to try and kill Kain at the same time that Raziel is monkeying about, so it's possible that he doesn't continue for much longer then what we've seen.

  16. #41
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    He's just too central a character in history to simply wipe him off the board.
    Except if you killed him in all eras before he did the things he does. Then you'd just be erasing all his bad , hence an Eden of sorts.

    Essentially, Nosgoth would basically remain largely in the peaceful state it was before the Ancient-Hylden conflict arose due to EG's influence. Alternatively if killing him would indeed be too catastrophic a change, Kain might just find a way to trap him outside the material plane - even in the demon realm, maybe - negating his influence among the living.

    And the grandfather paradox is actually solvable through some quantum stuff I don't fully understand.
    I could try at an analogy though.


    As far as the EG's presence throughout time, I imagine he doesn't exist far beyond the Soul Reaver era: The rise of Kain's immortal empire has left him starved, stagnating, unable to increase his power or presence to further eras. But then Raziel's been feeding him so...
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 3rd Dec 2015 at 05:37.

  17. #42
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    I agree that if anything is to be done to really change the state of Nosgoth it has to be in the future, after the era of Soul Reaver or even further in the timeline. I believe that is when the Pillars need to be restored and the Elder God can be killed without risking any temporal disturbances of an apocalyptic nature.

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Except if you killed him in all eras before he did the things he does. Then you'd just be erasing all his bad , hence an Eden of sorts.
    Except that they already showed in Soul Reaver 2 that any huge changes like that would literally destroy the world. :U Like going back in time and killing a bunny or something wouldn't hurt too much, but Squiddles is a pretty big deal, so I get the feeling that that would be a game-breaker for the world as a whole.

    Though you're all reminding me of this really glorious fanfic/fanart/fanTHING that I saw on Tumblr where someone wrote a little ficlet type thing. Kain killed the Elder God at the very end of all life on Nosgoth and Raziel's soul in the Reaver was released to be free but the ensuing blast killed Kain, too or something? And me and my friends bounced headcanon about it at each other in a screaming flail of OMFG THIS IS SO PAINFUL IT'S PERFECT I LOVE IT IT HURTS about how after everything was destroyed at the end, it would give the world a chance to start the process of evolution over completely.

    I DON'T KNOW MAN. IT WAS JUST A REALLY COOL THING AND NOW I'M WONDERING WHERE IT WAS SO I CAN LOOK AT IT AGAIN OH MAN

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    Except that they already showed in Soul Reaver 2 that any huge changes like that would literally destroy the world. :U Like going back in time and killing a bunny or something wouldn't hurt too much, but Squiddles is a pretty big deal, so I get the feeling that that would be a game-breaker for the world as a whole.

    Though you're all reminding me of this really glorious fanfic/fanart/fanTHING that I saw on Tumblr where someone wrote a little ficlet type thing. Kain killed the Elder God at the very end of all life on Nosgoth and Raziel's soul in the Reaver was released to be free but the ensuing blast killed Kain, too or something? And me and my friends bounced headcanon about it at each other in a screaming flail of OMFG THIS IS SO PAINFUL IT'S PERFECT I LOVE IT IT HURTS about how after everything was destroyed at the end, it would give the world a chance to start the process of evolution over completely.

    I DON'T KNOW MAN. IT WAS JUST A REALLY COOL THING AND NOW I'M WONDERING WHERE IT WAS SO I CAN LOOK AT IT AGAIN OH MAN
    I think time works differently for the EG than everybody else. Every time Raziel meets him in a different era, he always remembers everything he did in their previous encounters, regardless of the order. There's also the deleted dialogue about him existing outside the rim of time. This leads me to believe that it is his mind that's in all (or merely many) eras at once and that his body is just a manifestation. Kind of like a network with many terminals, but only one server or like (I don't mean literally here -->) he's reaching each limb through a different time portal and existing in many times and places at once. Thinking of it that way, he would have many bodies, but only one head. Kain could then systematically destroy each of the EG's bodies until his mind/soul has no where left to flee.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  20. #45
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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    I think time works differently for the EG than everybody else. every time Raziel meets him in a different era, he always remembers everything he did in their previous encounters, regardless of the order. There's also the deleted dialogue about him existing outside the rim of time. This leads me to believe that it is his mind that's in all (or merely many) eras at once and that his body is just a manifestation. Kind of like a network with many terminals, but only one server or like (I don't mean literally here -->) he's reaching each limb through a different time portal and existing in many times and places at once. Thinking of it that way, he would have many bodies, but only one head. Kain could then systematically destroy each of the EG's bodies until his mind/soul has no where left to flee.

    this is what i was trying to get at, but language barriers and all that and yes i tend to agree with this theory. to kill the elder god you would have to find the head so to speak. i mean i doubt he even have a head but i digress.
    i would love to see the aftermath of his death, with the elder races restored to nosgoth. the land would be that much richer and abundant of story possibilities.

    as for the time stream, i think the exclusion of elder god would restructure the timeline drastically, but within boundaries. maybe the pillars would exist in this new timeline, but maybe the purpose of them is twisted a bit to fit some other threat. perhaps kain would live again but never get turned into a vampire. i think seeing the world in this altered state would be interesting. nosgoth restored is the ultimate legacy that kain can give.
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  21. #46
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    Except that they already showed in Soul Reaver 2 that any huge changes like that would literally destroy the world.
    When was the world ever destroyed...

    And it wouldn't make any sense for the series to set Kain upon the Elder God if doing so would lead to the world's literal destruction. The whole point is to *save* the world from all this cataclysmic mess.

    @Vamp: That's essentially my thinking behind the kill method. He's got a hand in all these different eras so you'd need to cut them away until all that's left of him is the origin point (which I presume resides in some specific region of the spectral realm, kind of how Mortanius dwells in a unique region of it during BO's intro). Time doesn't flow in spectral, so 'outside the rim of time' may well just refer to that realm.

    So Kain would need to go on a pilgrimage cutting away at the Elder God throughout the timestream - along the way putting all his ducks in a row in regard to the continuation of the vampire race (wiping out the blood curse) and fixing the Pillars and all of that - then eventually (in the SR era) travel to whatever thus-far-unseen spectral region he properly dwells in - which would probably require Kain to die somehow (or find some other method to shift over, temporarily or otherwise) then wage battle throughout the spectral plane, fighting off repeated attempts by the Elder God to gobble him up as he goes.

    How he would die given his Scion-induced immortality though...Well, surely there must still be a way to kill him given that they all set Raziel to the task. Even Ariel, who ought to have known better as his predecessor if he were unkillable.

    Though after killing the Elder God, assuming the shift came from death. I doubt he'd have a way back so he maybe ought to handle the final blow last if that were the case.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 3rd Dec 2015 at 23:11.

  22. #47
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    i just played soul reaver 2, the world is never destroyed
    at some point i think the question of what would happen if the time stream where to be altered to much, in the ending sequence if i recall correctly.
    but never as i recall does anyone ever say that the world would be destroyed if the time-stream where to be altered to much.

    of course the altering of it would erase events and create new ones. you could call that destroying...
    Last edited by Uggabugg; 4th Dec 2015 at 10:32.
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  23. #48
    Originally Posted by Uggabugg
    i just played soul reaver 2, the world is never destroyed :P
    at some point i think the question of what would happen if the time stream where to be altered to much, in the ending sequence if i recall correctly.
    All I recall of that ending sequence is a standard timestream-altering paradox like all the others. Kain gets some new horrific memories of Hylden uprising, that's about as bad as it goes. (Interestingly, these new memories don't seem to include the part where he defeats the Hylden anyway - one presumes that the timestream took a while to sort itself to that end so he didn't 'remember' that part until later.)


    I think it'd be less an "end of the world" and more an "end of the world as we know it" - With the EG's influence terminated, the timestream would shift so drastically as to leave Nosgoth largely unrecognizable but still intact nonetheless.

    It'd probably be a far more advanced place without the constant wars the EG sparked wrecking things and diverting progress. And much of the spectral fauna (per my theory, products of the EG disrupting the Wheel) would cease to be. And new-timeline Kain would presumably live a full human, non-Guardian life - the final fulfillment of his legacy ironically culminating in its own non-existence.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 3rd Dec 2015 at 23:41.

  24. #49
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    If Kain removes the Elder God in ancient times then there might not have been a war between the vampires and hylden. If there is no war with the hylden then the Pillars (along with the reaver) may never come into being and the vampires never become immortal and sterile. If both of those events never happen then Kain never becomes a vampire because the ancients were never on the brink of extinction, so they wouldn't need to turn humans. Kain might be born a ancient vampire in this new timeline instead, which would be cool; but he wouldn't be immortal or the balance guardian because the Pillars never happen.

    Let us assume that despite the Elder God not being around the vampires and hylden go to war, which ends the same way. Without the Elder God there to corrupt Mobius and by association Mortanius, they might not have turned on what remained of the ancient vampires. If they still do then . . . . .

    I'm sorry but killing the Elder God in the past will change nothing because Kain still has to be able to go back in and do the deed, it would most likely result in his own destruction. Remember Kain's answer to Raziel's question about what would happen if an irritant (in this case Kain) made a change that was too big for history to accommodate, the irritant always gets removed.

    EDIT
    I won't say that it would always be dangerous to destroy the Elder God; unless it is as Vampmaster says and it exists outside the time stream, reaching it's tentacles into every era throughout the time stream. In which case, killing it will be next to impossible; but if it exists within the time stream, then it is simply a matter of when Kain can kill the Elder God.

    In theory, Kain only has to go forward in time to an era that comes after he and Raziel went back in time through the chronoplast at the end of Soul Reaver. After this moment in time is where the Elder God's influence over Kain and Raziel's journey comes to an end, so it can be killed without altering anything they've accomplished and acquired. There is no need for temporal distortion at this point because he isn't altering history, he is forging the future within his present.
    Last edited by GenFeelGood; 4th Dec 2015 at 03:55.

  25. #50
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    I believe what KaininitePriestess is talking about was the talk of, and the near happening of, a fatal paradox. "Remember, we are irritants in this regard, as well. History will not allow the introduction of a paradox." "And if events cannot be "reshuffled" to accommodate the change?" "It is the irritant who's expelled."

    "And I saw by the dawning horror on Kain's face that perhaps we had strained history too far this time ... that by trying to alter my fate, he may have introduced a fatal paradox."

    Whatever action is taken against an event in time, it can't undo too much, especially the events that would lead to meeting at that time and place (the very reason Kain attempting to kill his former self is absolutely impossible in this universe (yeah, Dead Sun; that means you)). The EG is woven very much throughout history and its events. Attempting to remove him in any time could very well cause such a paradox. History, if pressed too far, will win out against such a fatal paradox and will, instead, remove that which is trying to do it in the first place ("the irritant"). So, Kain, were he to have the means to even try, would be wiped out before time would. (I see GenFeelGood posted the same thing, yes)

    But then there's the bigger issue: Kain no longer has the means to create a paradoxical moment in the first place, having only one Reaver and no Raziel to work with.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 4th Dec 2015 at 02:05.

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