A topic originally started by TechImmortal on the old Eidos Deus Ex Forum.

Note: I have edited the original threads by removing several off-topic posts, user signatures, and a few other minor items. In some places, this causes inconsistencies in alternating colors for individual posts.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="95%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD bgColor=#000000> <TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#00104f> <TD vAlign=center width="18%"><FONT face=Arial color=#ffffff size=1><B>Author</B></FONT></TD> <TD vAlign=center><FONT face=Arial color=#ffffff size=1><B>Topic:&nbsp;&nbsp; SPOILERS! Tech's DX2 Speculation Thread (as Promised)</B></FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-10-2002 08:25 PM</FONT> <HR> On the topic of resolutions for the three endings in DX, I came up with some ideas inspired by my conversations with Green Greasy Greasel. The Illuminati could still come out on top in every scenario. First consider the Helio ending. We see Morpheus at Everett's apartment. He was a prototype of a much larger system. Everett was also involved with the Echelon IV project. Could he have been directly or indirectly involved with the self-awareness of either Daedalus or Icarus? If that were true, perhaps a Helios/JC merge would still maintain programming from Everett (PhD) who was a skilled AI programmer. Perhaps the merge was all part of his master plan. Sometimes to hide a true motive, you embed programming in a distributed manner and only when they combine (Helios) do you get the entire programming and the true ordinance is manifested. <P>Now on to the Tracer Tong ending. Remember the hub at the Chateau DuClaire? Perhaps it was part of a much larger system created and owned by Everett. In essence it was a duplicate of Area 51. With Trace Tong's destruction of the Aquinas hub, all data routing would immediately be regulated through the Europe hub, which is controlled by Everett. Again he has succeeded in gaining control. In all three endings, Everett has been able to take power from Bob Page. This fits in well with the idea of America vs. Europe. The tactics of Bob Page does have similarities with the way American conducts business. He succeeds because of the immense power and resources at his disposal. Everett would represent the European methods involving age-old conspiracies and the invisible hand. <BR></FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>TechImmortal</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 514<BR>From: Cabal of Technophiles mod group<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-10-2002 08:49 PM</FONT> <HR> As soon as I posted that the one thing I hadn't mentioned was *why* JC would be reborn/resurrected/recloned, it occurred to me that there was "someone" who would want that very much -- Helios. Remember that Helios, with or without a merge, survives all my scenarios. <P>As for "corrupting" the JC/Helios entity, there's a good way to do that, but it's not emotionally based. <P>What is the weakness of a computer? Input. And human sense systems have the same weakness, just in a different way. <P>It would be difficult, because the JC/Helios entity can walk around the world and validate data input to a certain extent, but it might be possible for enemies to feed corrupt data into Helios' systems, thus causing Helios to act incorrectly in response - garbage in, garbage out. <P>A variety of things could result - anything from subtly tipping the balance (this is related to Operation Mind____ in the Illuminati novels), to an outright crash resulting in chaos. <P>I'm not committed to this idea. But I do think GGG's scenario could be done that way.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Green Greasy Greasel</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 37<BR>From: USA, Arizona<BR>Registered: OCT 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-10-2002 09:52 PM</FONT> <HR> I just realized a small flaw in my and a few other scenarios. Helios almost merged with Page but then decided it liked you better, or you better suited it's needs. Since Helios survives all three of Tech's viable scenarios why on earth would Helios be stuck on JC? I mean there are LOTS of people out there to merge with. Why JC? It would probably sooner merge with Hobo-Joe than spend all that effort to reincarnate JC to merge with. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 04:14 AM</FONT> <HR> If JC were just an ordinary human, then what you said is very true. However JC is not just anyone. He was engineered and hence have special qualities which normal humans do not possess. For one thing, we are lead to believe that JC cannot be corrupted. Helios would have to pretend to intend to merge with Page or else the facilites would not be avilable for a Helios/JC merge. Helios waited until Page was inside the augmentation chamber before revealing his plans. This way Page would be unable to stop Helios.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>gamergirl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 165<BR>From: Phoenix, AZ USA<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 07:46 AM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by ICEBreaker:<BR><B>For one thing, we are lead to believe that JC cannot be corrupted.</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> <P>There are some characters in the game who would disagree. Whether JC gets "corrupted" is a matter of perspective. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>DeusExJew</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 356<BR>From: Halifax,NS,Canada<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 11:17 AM</FONT> <HR> Its pretty hard to call yourself "corrupted" when you have dedicated yourself to the destruction of all evil conspiracies worldwide. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>gamergirl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 165<BR>From: Phoenix, AZ USA<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 12:18 PM</FONT> <HR> "Evil" vs. "good" is relative, not absolute. Terrorists generally see themselves working for what they consider a good cause, not an evil one. The NSF is no different, but as JC we start out believing they are evil until we are convinced otherwise by people we trust. So was JC "corrupted" by the NSF or was he "shown the light?" It depends on whether you see the NSF as good or evil. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>broke gem slug</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Junior Member <P>Posts: 25<BR>From: Wick, Scotland<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 01:41 PM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by DeusExJew:<B><BR> "This time around, you'll have the option of playing as either man or woman... all new persona or a gender bending JC </B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> <P>umm... JC's outward appearance is of a man, but does he actually have the *ahem* bits. if he has neither bits then it wouldnt matter if you chose to be a woman in the second one and were worried about not being the same. <P>or, if you choose(?) to be the woman, then the story could go that during the cloning process to remake(?) him in the sequel he/she accidentally has the XX instead of XY chromosome because the technology is ruined or a tired scientist did it wrong. maybe </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>gamergirl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 165<BR>From: Phoenix, AZ USA<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 02:13 PM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by broke gem slug:<BR><b>he/she accidentally has the XX instead of XY chromosome because the technology is ruined or a tired scientist did it wrong. maybe</b> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> <P>Wrong? WRONG?!?! You mean, that the scientist finally got a clue and did it RIGHT this time! </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>DeusExJew</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 356<BR>From: Halifax,NS,Canada<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 02:13 PM</FONT> <HR> Thats a quote from PC Gamer slug.<BR>Gamergirl: By the end of Deus Ex, the game definitely potrays the NSF as good and Bob Page/Conspirators as evil. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>gamergirl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 165<BR>From: Phoenix, AZ USA<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 02:24 PM</FONT> <HR> Oh yes DeusExJew, I agree with you. But I don't believe that proves JC cannot be corrupted. He is human after all. <P>At the time he did the task for Paul to help the NSF, *I* was not convinced that the NSF was "good" but I had to follow the story because that's where it was going. At that moment, I wondered about JC's judgement. Turns out it was the right decision, but IMO he did not yet have enough proof. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Danaelus</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 657<BR>From: Washington, DC<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 04:47 PM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by gamergirl:<BR><B>Wrong? WRONG?!?! You mean, that the scientist finally got a clue and did it RIGHT this time! <P><IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"><IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"><IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"> <P>heh heh heh</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> LOL, but the question is, gamergirl; when the time comes, will you play as the female or male JC? </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 07:26 PM</FONT> <HR> <B>Green Greasy Greasel</B> one thing I did not make clear was that Helios could only chose from a tiny number of the human population anyway. Supposing there were better human in the world than JC, they would have to be persuaded somehow to travel to Area 51, be able to battle all the guards and get inside sector 4, and be augmented before finally merging with Helios. Obviously this rules out most of the population. You are left with a handful of powerful people with the resources to do this. I guess out of those people, JC was the best candidate for the merge. One additional practical reason is that only Paul and JC are fully augmented. Anyone else would have to go through further augmentation, which could be a problem as time is limited and adds additional risk. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by gamergirl:<BR><B>So was JC "corrupted" by the NSF or was he "shown the light?" It depends on whether you see the NSF as good or evil.</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> <P>I see exactly what you mean and agree. But "corrupt" would not be the right word to use. "Misguided "would perhaps be a better substitute. If someone was lied to and tricked into doing something wrong, he is not corrupted. Therefore I still think JC is incorruptible and therefore is the best candidate. He would only do what he thinks is right for humanity. Whether what he thinks is right or wrong is another matter entirely (your point). And I also agree, that right and wrong is a matter of perspective. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by broke gem slug:<BR><B>or, if you choose(?) to be the woman, then the story could go that during the cloning process to remake(?) him in the sequel he/she accidentally has the XX instead of XY chromosome because the technology is ruined or a tired scientist did it wrong. maybe</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> <P>Interesting but not realistic on many levels. For one, if the technology existed to create things like JC, one would not mess up on something as simple as that. Secondly if something were to go wrong, the chances it'd be this would be astronomically low. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Green Greasy Greasel</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 37<BR>From: USA, Arizona<BR>Registered: OCT 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 10:07 PM</FONT> <HR> Ice, in my scenario the merging was not at Area 51, Helios went and licked his wounds and gave JC a call a few years later (assuming he chose the Tong or Everett ending) and convinced him to merge, after missing the opportunity at Area 51. So in 10 years the population you described would not be ruled out at all. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>TechImmortal</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 514<BR>From: Cabal of Technophiles mod group<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-11-2002 10:43 PM</FONT> <HR> Remember that one other thing -- the most important thing according to the original Deus Ex story -- is that only certain individuals can tolerate the nanites, which are encapsulated in a viral coat. <P>Read the message on Jaime's computer the very first time you visit UNATCO. Yeah, that's right, unrealistically walk right up and hack his computer in front of him, or get his login and password from Alex's computer. <P>Now that you know how the augmentation system is set up, read the "Cloning Prospectus" on the very last computer in the game (except for the router computer, of course). For details, see my third post in this thread (Baby, It's cold outside). <P>So, yes, only a limited population can tolerate the nano-augmentation. That's why MJ12 kidnapped Ford Schick, and other scientists. They were trying to solve the problem. Anyone who can tolerate the Gray Death, can tolerate the nanites. That's the summary. Explore and find out!<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"> </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 05:26 AM</FONT> <HR> Greasel, I thought you meant "why merge with JC" back in A51. I didn't realise you meant LATER!<BR> </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>gamergirl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 165<BR>From: Phoenix, AZ USA<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 08:27 AM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by Danaelus:<B><BR>LOL, but the question is, gamergirl; when the time comes, will you play as the female or male JC?</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> Both!<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"> I'll play first as the female (I always do when given a choice), then as the male.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>broke gem slug</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Junior Member <P>Posts: 25<BR>From: Wick, Scotland<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 12:38 PM</FONT> <HR> hehe sorry gamegirl. i meant 'made a mistake' but the game can still explain it as 'getting it wrong' if it wants. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Green Greasy Greasel</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 37<BR>From: USA, Arizona<BR>Registered: OCT 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 02:09 PM</FONT> <HR> On another note, how do we even know DX2 will be a single player game? <P>It will most likely be, but it would really cool if... <P>DEUS EX (the MMORPG) <P>It would be perfect! a MMORPG set in the world of DX! Look it even has DX, notice anything about the nickname? 2 Initials! What other MMORPGS have 2 initials? AC, EQ, UO they all do except for the new one DAOC! <P>Now the question is, if DX2 was a MMORPG then would it be Skill based (UO) or LVL Based (AC, EQ)? Or a mostly LVL but skills also that actually count for something so a combination (DAOC)? <P>I think it would be hard to be LVL based like the other ones with DX similiar veiw, AC EQ and DAOC. (3rd or 1st person as opposed to overhead) Because LVL based ones are almost always class based as well, so unless you had different cl*/races it wouldn't make sense for it to be LVL based. A new and cool idea would be skill based, similiar to UO but with DX style on it. <P>To do this all you need: <P>1. Huge Server<BR>2. 50 more skills<BR>3. Respawning NPCs<BR>4. Maps (with airplanes or something to transport from one country to another?)<BR>5. Innovative chat system (overhead chat text like UO or chat room style boxes as in others?) <P>I don't know, I played AC for 5 months, EQ for 2 years, DAOC Since last October(it just came out) and UO for 4 and a half years. I think I could REALLY REALLY find myself into a DX MMORPG. Plus it would be cool to have a futuristic one rather than another fantasy world one. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>DeusExJew</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 356<BR>From: Halifax,NS,Canada<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 02:20 PM</FONT> <HR> Great idea GGG. Though I enjoy sp more than mp games, I think that would be alot of fun. The Deus Ex universe is well suited to a mmorpg. I've played UO for an eternity as well and would welcome the chance to play a game like that. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-Random-</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 81<BR>From:<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 04:29 PM</FONT> <HR> WS and HS have said that DX is only a single player game. Which is a good thing. In my opinion. There definately won't be MP out of the box anyway. Those guys are single player game designers, so I'd rather they stick to what they're good at.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>DeusExJew</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 356<BR>From: Halifax,NS,Canada<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 06:10 PM</FONT> <HR> No one's suggesting it will happen, just a little fun idea. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Danaelus</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 657<BR>From: Washington, DC<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 07:21 PM</FONT> <HR> GGG, which of those MMORPG is the best?? I have never tried one and I have often wondered about them. Do you play all of them at the same time? You must pay almost 100 bucks in mmorpg bills every month! Oh well, smoking is probably a more expensive addiction. <P>Anyway, there is a game in the works that is an MMORPG which is VERY Deus Ex-like. I posted on it somewhere back but I dont remember the name of the game or the post. That game will probably be worth looking in to.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>DeusExJew</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 356<BR>From: Halifax,NS,Canada<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 07:45 PM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by Danaelus:<BR><B>Anyway, there is a game in the works that is an MMORPG which is VERY Deus Ex-like. I posted on it somewhere back but I dont remember the name of the game or the post. That game will probably be worth looking in to.</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"> <P>Neocron is the game in question Danaleus<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif"> <P>Which mmorpg is the best? A very tough question. In terms of sheer gameplay and depth UO wins in my opinion though its graphics cannot compete with the others. Everquest supposedly is the most addictive, DAOC looks the best and I haven't heard good things about Asheron's Call. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Green Greasy Greasel</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 37<BR>From: USA, Arizona<BR>Registered: OCT 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 08:50 PM</FONT> <HR> No I do not play them all at once, I played AC for only about 5 months, a few of them free trial and I hate it compared to EQ and UO. <P>In the beginning there was UO, the first MMORPG to really make it, sure there were others but they were like writing with woodless pencils back in the 1800's compared to the ones we use today. <P>UO is skill based meaning your SKILLS go up and there is no LVL 1-50 etc. there are disadvantages and advantages to this system. Some people do not like UO because it has the Diablo type veiw. I don't mind that much, and the new Lord Blackthorn X Pac is cool. <P>After about a year UO was no longer roleplaying, never heard a thee or thou and would get pked if you left town. The biggest problem in my mind with UO is they overfix things. For instance if everyone is an archer they will nerf archery so bad that no one wants to be it and not even think about reprocussions, then everyone will go to a new weapon say 'halberds' and they will be faced with whether or not to let people drink pots while holding halberds. Every problem they fixed caused atleast two more. <P>I do not play anymore but my Dad does and he runs my account (I played Napa/GL and he is on chessie) It was fun if you found a nice group of people who were into the same stuff you were, |_337 P|&lt;s or Thou art a roleplayer. PvP is dead in UO except on test center, because they overnerfed it. <P>Then there was AC/EQ these came out within months of each other if I remember right. AC I wouldn't be the one to ask, seemed real bad in a lot of ways but I did like the guild system in it. <P>EQ held me for about 2 years. I had a high LVL (46) shaman and a mid LVL (32) bard. The problem with this game was repetiveness. Here is what I mean: <P>Warrior: Hit 'A' watch fight, ask for heal, pull, Hit 'A' etc. <P>Cleric: Cast Heal, Med, Buff, Med, Heal, Med, Med, Heal, Med <P>Druid: Root, blast, run, run, blast, root, <P>you get the picture, with the exception of the bard (which is just a headache) every character gets in a rut that you can't shake for 10 levels when they change roles. (Shaman goes from Healer to Poison/Buff), EQ was LVL based and had different races/cl* with skills not really contributing. The problem was (which I will go into detail when I get to DAOC) a LVL 50 Druid was the exact same as another LVL 50 Druid (with exception of equipment). Best thing about EQ in my opinion was its economy, it has the best economy where items fluctuate in price and people are always trading and new items are found every day. The way EQ kept its addicts was by mixing in new zones and monsters, every X-Pac is just a way to keep people interested in its repetiveness. 'Oh look im hitting 'A' and my guys swinging at a Shardwyrm! Cool!' <P>DAOC is the newest and the best in comparison to AC and EQ (UO is a different ball game) What DAOC did was basically take EQ with all its badness and add in concepts from AC and UO to fix the problems ruining EQ. DAOC is very funny when you have played all of them because it has people from all of them and all the l33t k3Wl d00d talk is a mixture. But the game is superior as well, it is class/raced so its LVL based as well. BUT unlike AC or EQ skills do count for something. Every class has certain skills that they can specialize in along with their basic class abilities. For instance I have a Lurikeen champ, first of all he is very different from other champs because he is a lurikeen. Now there are many ways to play a champ, there are so many combinations, mine however spends most of his points in sheild/blunt (sheild for extra defense and blunt weapons to make up for his lower str than non Lurikeen champs, Lurikeens are like little leprachauns/gnomes by the way.)and the leftovers in mostly Valor (attack spells) and a bit in parry (blocking with a weapon). So it combines a little UO into the EQ format, oh and its Deus Ex type veiw being behind the character or through their eyes. The best part about DAOC is its PvP/Level system, for one its a lot easier to LVL than EQ so instead of 2 months for the average gamer to get to LVL 40 or so its about a month (if you know what your doing, not on your first try of course). The PvP works like this, there is a safezone, a realm zone and the frontier. There are three warring factions, basically the Norse (vikings) the Gaelic (Irish) and the British (English). The safe zone is where the lower LVLs start out and get higher, to about atleast 25. Then the realm zone is the part of your factions land that the other factions can enter. Safe zone is off limits to the others so don't leave until atleast 25. Then the frontier is where the main battling takes place, and there are forts that your faction/team try to capture and alliances form, ongoing war really fun stuff. <P>Well thats pretty much all I have to say on the subject please excuse all the typos, im real lazy. If you want to get in contact with me, I play UO as RPer 'Ezzard' on Napa, GoDSmaCK PKer on Test Center. My EQ and AC accounts are retired, and on DAOC im server Morgan Le Fay faction (realm) Hibernia, named Euroswydd or Mananaan there. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Danaelus</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 657<BR>From: Washington, DC<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 09:16 PM</FONT> <HR> Thats pretty interesting dude. The only MMORPG I have ever seen even briefly was UO I think, it had the Isometric perspective like Diablo that you mentioned. I wasnt aware there were such differences in perspective in these games. You said DAOC uses a first person perspective? Thats awesome!! Is the combat turnbased or real time in all these games? I think the thing that has always turned me off to RPG's (the whole Final Fantasy Series and the Baldur's Gate and Fallout series)is turn based fighting. It seems so boring and skillless. I am a huge fan of Zelda or any game with RPG like elements with real fighting. <P>I even liked Diablo a lot, even though its simple point and click combat wasn't a huge step above turn based, at least it provided temporal continuity in the world I was trying to engross myself in.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 09:34 PM</FONT> <HR> Can someone please give the full names of all these acronyms. I am lost. UO is Urban Operations to me which is obviously not the same as your UO. I only know EQ - EverQuest. <P>MMORPG - multi something something role playing games.<BR>AC - Asheron's Call (never heard of it)<BR>DAOC - UO - <P>Thanks. <P><B>Danaelus</B> I am also no fan of turn based battles, however there is actually a skill to it. The only turn based battle I play a lot is Pokemon. <P>The Neocron the one you showed us actually seems to be the most fun by far. It is the only real time battle I have seen.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Danaelus</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 657<BR>From: Washington, DC<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 09:45 PM</FONT> <HR> Yeah, I am not afraid to admit I thought pokemon was the shiznit. I cant wait for a Game boy advance version to come out. <P>As for the acronyms, GGG says them all in his post. <P>MMORPG - Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game <P>AC - Asherons Call <P>DAOC - Dark Age of Camelot <P>UO - Ultima Online</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 09:57 PM</FONT> <HR> Thanks for that!! I never heard of these games before! Yup I didn't get any of the acronyms which GGG mentioned. I only knew about Asheron's Call because DeusExJew mentioned it. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Green Greasy Greasel</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 37<BR>From: USA, Arizona<BR>Registered: OCT 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-12-2002 10:27 PM</FONT> <HR> First of all sorry for getting so off topic, and second of all for not telling about acronyms, It was rude of me to assume you all knew them. <P>UO= Ultima Online<BR>AC= Ascherons Call<BR>EQ= Everquest<BR>DAOC= Dark Ages of Camelot<BR>MMORPG= Mass Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game <P>Yes they are all turned based, but not like FF. You don't go into a little arena and then have him move and then you move like chess. It is like auto attack I guess, you hit attack on and depending on weapon speed you swing. Monsters do the same thing, skill less? No. In UO if it was skill less why when I am running around as GoDSmaCK do I have a 1/10 Death Ratio? <P>Here is a UO battle that could actually happen. <P>I am going warrior, going longspear because I like paralyze, have macros set to switch deadly poisoned kryss if need be. I see a 'blue' (non-player killer) run by named Arthur, I attack him and swing, he is being cheap and going axer (most powerful atm) and he gets a good hit off, I run circles around him for the next 15 seconds waiting for my bandage to heal, then I stop and he misses a few times, I hit and he is paralyzed, quickly I hit my macro and switch to kryss. Kryss misses and he gets away. I chase him and my buddy LooSe CaNNoN paralyzes him with the spell and has a combo ready to go off on him (Explosion+Mindblast) and after combo I go in and finish off. Unfair 2 on 1 you say? Not really, we have it tough seems like its 5 reds versus 50 blues, and we can't even step inside town without instantly dying. <P>UO battles do get annoying, because sometimes you get really unlucky and they get really lucky and it does not matter if your skilled. Also if you don't have cable or dsl you can't really compete. But you are skilled by knowing when to run and when not to, knowing when to go in and when to wait for your friend to do his moves first, knowing which person out of a group to smack first. <P>Now for a DAOC battle. <P>I am hunting in the frontier with my guildmates, we notice an Albion (British) coming. By looking at what she is wearing we can tell she is a Minstrel (Albion Bard). I am a Druid (Mainly healer, but can have other abilities) and am with a Nightshade (Rogue/Theif/Assasin) and an Eldritch (Pure Boom-Boom mage) she cons purple (meaning she is atleast 4 or 5 levels higher than all of us) She could own us, expecially since we were not looking for a fight and she caught us off guard. As soon as I point her out the Nightshade runs away, very annoying and she kills the eldritch before he can even cast a spell. Leaving me, the healer to tank it with a Bard. While she is mindlessly beating on me (easy win for her) My Nightshade friend gets his backstab chain off and perforates her artery for 256 DMG, taking her to half health. I poison her with the Druid poison spell and luckily it is not resisted. I then proceed to heal my nightshade friend while he finishes her off all the while my pet lynx is helping too. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 12:06 AM</FONT> <HR> You people are so violent!!!</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>OldGrrl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 139<BR>From:<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 06:59 AM</FONT> <HR> well, that was a lot of interesting information, guys. i'll keep it all for future reference when i'm ready to try out mmorpgs. but too bad it wasn't in it's own topic so as not to totally derail this thread. so, for now...<BR><BR>(oldgrrl attempts to draggggg this thread back ON topic.) <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by gamergirl:<BR><B>Both!<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"> I'll play first as the female (I always do when given a choice), then as the male.</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;">there's a dedicated player.<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif"> already planning her replay scenario.<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif"><p>i've run all sorts of justifications for all the endings through my mind, but i have never been able to come up with a logical reason why the DX2 character can be female. (and i SURE hope it isn't that leggy version from the DX art pages!! if that's the female JC i will most definitely NOT be playing as a her.) i guess in the long run, JC becoming female is one of those "suspension of disbelief" areas. heh.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 08:35 AM</FONT> <HR> Maybe the leggy female is a WIB...</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>TechImmortal</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 514<BR>From: Cabal of Technophiles mod group<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 04:59 PM</FONT> <HR> The female in the PC Gamer images looks so creepy, I think she must be some kind of assassin. Or maybe she's the DX2 equivalent of a "servant" (those of you who've played Thief 2 know exactly what kind of tormented, creepy entity I'm referring to.) <P>I thought the blank eyes didn't mean much, the first time I saw her, but now I think they really are supposed to look that way, because other "people" concept pics I've seen, since, all have normal-looking eyes. <P>Another thing to speculate about is Seattle. It's been made clear that they have maps of Seattle in the new engine, and given the location of Seattle, I wonder if this has to do with the rise, or regrouping, of the NSF. <P>Bear in mind, though, that even a finished map, mission, or scenario can be cut from the final version - this happened to the White House mission in Deus Ex, for example. So, Seattle may not turn up, in the end. But, anyone have any ideas about it, anyway? Are there any famed conspiracies associated with Seattle? </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>DeusExJew</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 356<BR>From: Halifax,NS,Canada<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 05:31 PM</FONT> <HR> Well we know for a fact that if the Seattle mission is in the final product that the Space Needle will be there as well (refer to my post of the PC Gamer article). I wonder if JC ascends the Space Needle just as he did the Statue of Liberty? No specific Seattke conspiracy theories I can think about however. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 05:34 PM</FONT> <HR> Well didn't MIB feature the Space Needle or was that just that place in LA whose name has escaped me? Heh heh. Anyway I doubt they will make the same mistake again and misplan the levels. It was a real waste of time, resources and money to have made the White House level and then left it out.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-Random-</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 81<BR>From:<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 05:53 PM</FONT> <HR> The only reference to Seattle in the first game is this 'Know Your Enemy' article: <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Know Your Enemy -- NSF <P>The National Secessionist Forces (NSF) remain a very real and increasingly widespread terrorist threat. Ten years ago, in response to the Sporting Weapons Act of 2042, splinter groups from nearly every state militia refused to surrender their rifles, grenades, land mines, and other "collectibles" prohibited by the Act. Unified under the charismatic leadership of Leon Woods, these isolated fanatics eventually formed the NSF with Woods assuming the rank of General. Their intended goal: the "liberation" of Washington, Montana, Oregon, and Northern California. <P>While Woods died during his infamous "last stand" in 2045, his war machine continues what can only be termed an occupation of the United States, aided by an encrypted network designed by <B>dissident computer scientists from San Francisco and Seattle</B>. Currently, the UNATCO Cryptography Division has had minimal success in cracking their communications, requiring more direct intelligence gathering techniques to be utilized. <P>The U.N. has declared war on the NSF. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>DeusExJew</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 356<BR>From: Halifax,NS,Canada<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 06:08 PM</FONT> <HR> Very clever -random-.<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"> </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>TechImmortal</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 514<BR>From: Cabal of Technophiles mod group<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-13-2002 07:23 PM</FONT> <HR> Thanks, Random -- that's what I meant about Seattle and the NSF, but I'd forgotten about the computer scientist part of that.<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif"> <P>So, here we have people who might be clever enough to feed fake data to Helios and mess up its decisions. Or, perhaps, they can create their own AI. Or, they just make trouble by continuing to provide encryption for assorted rebels. At any rate, they sound like players. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>OldGrrl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 139<BR>From:<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-14-2002 04:38 AM</FONT> <HR> oh! so it's possible JC merged and took on bad info? or made his decision to do whatever, all based on bad info fed to him by these peoples?<BR><BR>oh my. curiouser and curiouser.<BR> </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-14-2002 07:21 AM</FONT> <HR> Always a possibility but I very much doubt it. You would need a machine more powerful than Helios in order to simulate a false environment, so complex that Helios could not detect the discrepancies.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>gamergirl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 165<BR>From: Phoenix, AZ USA<BR>Registered: SEP 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-14-2002 09:55 AM</FONT> <HR> I wonder if they mean "JC" more loosely when they say that the player can choose a female or male JC. In other words, maybe the main character is not the JC we all know and love, but perhaps the "Alex" that's in the tank? It could be short for Alexia, Alexandra, Alexander, and so on -- male or female. Is there anything documented so far that positively identifies the main character in DX2 as being named "JC?" </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Danaelus</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 657<BR>From: Washington, DC<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT> </P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-14-2002 10:21 AM</FONT> <HR> I am pretty sure that in interviews, the people in charge have said "in Deus Ex 2 you will once again be playing as JC Denton" or something to that affect.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>TechImmortal</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 514<BR>From: Cabal of Technophiles mod group<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-14-2002 06:29 PM</FONT> <HR> Re: direct statement about playing JC - yes, there is a direct statement in the PC Gamer I refer to in my introductory posts. That doesn't mean PC Gamer couldn't have misunderstood something, but for now, I'm going with that. On page 39 of that issue: <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> ...you once again play as JC Denton... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Re: confusing Helios -- a simulation of a false environment isn't what I had in mind. I have something much more subtle in mind -- a little false data here, a little false data there. Kind of the computer equivalent of a misinformation campaign. Messing with the news feeds, editing data from hospitals, etc. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-14-2002 07:55 PM</FONT> <HR> I have reservations on the misinformation theory. An AI like Helios would analysis each piece of information including the validity of the source. The result of the analysis will give a weighting of significance, which is propagated to its internal world model representation. What misinformation is trying to achieve is to change its internal thought process so much, that Helios is confused into making a wrong (and hopefully vital) decision. To achieve this requires a lot of planning. More precisely it requires a simulation of Helios' thought processes. This can only be done by another AI of somewhat comparable intelligence. Furthermore, if one were to trick Helios by means of only a few "facts", Helios would be very suspicious of the validity of those facts. If one were to use the alternative accumulation method, the task would be mammoth! Not only that, when any threshold is reached in the decision making process, Helios would probably do a validity check anyway. So even using small subtle changes may not work. <P>Finally kudos to Random for finding that reference to Seattle and I am glad he brought it to our attention. It is quite interesting. However it the only reference to Seattle in the entire game. Contrast this with the Siberia reference. That was much more significant because that reference was so unique. You can tell it was written with a lot of thought. On the otherhand, the text referring to encryption scientists in San Francisco and Seattle seems to have been thrown in without much thought. Those two cities are naturally the computer centres of the world. Although this may seem a bit subjective, I think the point is still worth mentioning. I wouldn't be surprised if even the Ion Storm guys forgot about this reference. I don't think the Seattle level in DX2 is based on this reference.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-Random-</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 81<BR>From:<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-15-2002 04:16 AM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by ICEBreaker:<BR><B>I don't think the Seattle level in DX2 is based on this reference.</B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Neither did I actually, I just remembered that reference to Seattle somewhere so I put it up here. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>??DEADALUS??</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 57<BR>From: New York, NY USA<BR>Registered: DEC 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-15-2002 05:40 PM</FONT> <HR> Great info. Very interesting and logical, but for one thing, you can't be sure that Tracer Tong will be alive in DX2. after all he has the Gray Death, and Savage hasn't finished creating the cure, and I don't think that JC and Helios will make a such a bad couple. And I think Alex could inform JC if Everett has gone nuts. The Illuminati can't blow A51 aky-high since Helios controls access. Perhaps he could hold them off long enough for JC to escape. I am not even sure why they made the Tracer Tong ending because if you hadn't removed the bomb from Jock's chopper, he is going to blow up right when he drops you off, that way you have no place to escape from the explosion and eventually it will be as Tech said earlier. I also noticed thta at Area51, when you look at the Goals/Notes, you will see that one of the ways to kill Page is to cut off his defences, and it also says: kill Page. I know it might sound foolish, but is there another way to kill Page? And it would be sort of fun if there was another ending, perhaps if you give Page a chance, after all Europe sounds like a deal to me<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif"></FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-15-2002 11:23 PM</FONT> <HR> I think DX had so many lose ends so as to leave a lot of room for DX2. I agree, I think JC and Helios would make perfect partners. The Illuminati can blow up Helios because Helios is not interfaced with the generator technology and so if they were to overload, say due to the safety interlocks being offline, there is nothing that Helios could do. This is one of the reasons for a merge with a corporal body. JC could then protect the generator from Everett. Helios needs a physical presence. As for the chopper situation, I don't know how big the explosion at A51 will be. But I think as long as JC makes it out of the blast doors, he should be OK. It only takes about 5 minutes to get out. By the way if you really want Europe, I suggest you play Syndicate.</FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>TechImmortal</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 514<BR>From: Cabal of Technophiles mod group<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-16-2002 12:08 AM</FONT> <HR> 1) Helios can't stop an explosion, so it can't save Area 51. It can, however, save itself, by transmitting itself to another location. It is possible -- in fact, likely -- that Page has a backup of something as valuable as Helios, elsewhere, and all Helios needs to do is transmit the last bit of its own self, with any new data, over to that backup. Sort of like a self-upgrade. An easy way for Helios to survive without having to allow time for a very large full backup to happen. <P>2) There was originally going to be a join-Page option as an ending. It's in one of the interviews I'll be pointing STL to, for his story page. For now, you'll have to trust me<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif"> <P>3) The team was not originally going to make a Deus Ex 2. So, plans for a DX2 can't be read into anything in DX1. Immediately *after* they made DX1 they started collecting goodies in case they got to make a DX2. Again, this is in several interviews, the links to which I'll be handing over to STL, soon. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>ICEBreaker</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 2186<BR>From: Sydney, Australia<BR>Registered: NOV 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-16-2002 12:34 AM</FONT> <HR> Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean DX1 was planned with DX2 in mind. I meant that beause they had NOT planned DX2, they left a lot of lose ends, in case they did need to do DX2.<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif"></FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-Random-</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 81<BR>From:<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-17-2002 01:50 AM</FONT> <HR> Good work, Tech. I figured the WTO was the World Trade Organisation, but I'm not a conspiracy buff, so I don't know how any of that would connect.<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"></FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#dfe0e0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>TechImmortal</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 514<BR>From: Cabal of Technophiles mod group<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-17-2002 01:56 AM</FONT> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="margin-top:0px;"><FONT face=Arial size=1>quote:</FONT> <HR> Originally posted by -Random-:<BR><B>Good work, Tech. I figured the WTO was the World Trade Organisation, but I'm not a conspiracy buff, so I don't know how any of that would connect.<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif"></B> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Sheldon Pacotti explains it in that interview I provide a link to, especially toward the end of the interview. <P>Thanks, but I never would have thought of it if I hadn't seen that interview. </FONT></TD></TR> <TR valign="top" bgcolor=#c0c8d0> <TD vAlign=top width="18%"><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>OldGrrl</B></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>Member <P>Posts: 139<BR>From:<BR>Registered: AUG 2001</FONT></P></TD> <TD><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial color=#001450 size=1>posted 03-17-2002 06:11 AM</FONT> <HR> i was wondering if WTO might be World Trade Org. but like Random, i couldn't figure the conspiracy connection. i should read newspapers more.<BR><BR>re interview: interesting bit about losing his security clearance if DOD see DX. hmm. and hmmmm some more. eh?<IMG src="http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif"> </FONT></TD></TR> </TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>